Is "Flipping" dishonest, morally wrong, despicable, mean, detestable, vile, or illegal ???

[Crusty Trucker]

There has been and still is a lot of negativism toward the act of flipping cars, houses and other goods. I'd like to hear some good reasons as to why flipping rubs some people the wrong way.

In my book, if I find a good deal and feel that there may be value there beyond my investment, and I can realize that value in short order, I take the opportunity. The fact that the next guy didn't jump at the bargain before me, for whatever reason. is not my concern. The early bird gets the worm. A buyer never has to buy from a flipper and has no reason to criticize him. 

Not every "flip" is profitable either. The flipper is taking a chance that someone else will find more value in the item than the person that sold it to him. If not, the flipper is stuck and may even loose some or all of his investment.

I really get tired of hearing, "Well, he only paid $XXX for it and now he wants $ZZZ.   How does he dare to do that?"

The entrepreneurial system wasn't built on the principal of selling things for the price you purchased them (or even less)!

 

If you have never sold anything for at least a small "mark-up", let us know.  

Charitable giving is a whole "nother" subject, and not the topic here.

[Bhigdog]

3 minutes ago, Crusty Trucker said:

I'd like to hear some good reasons as to why flipping rubs some people the wrong way.

Laziness and jealousy...............Bob

[bryankazmer]

The flipper’s purchase and sale are both voluntary transactions. I see no issue there.

 

I think the negative image is because flippers are not hobbyists.  They are dealing in what is to them a commodity, seen only for its price tag. 

[TAKerry]

I agree completely with Crusty.  I see nothing wrong with someone flipping a car, or a house or whatever. Its a free market society. When a car is for sale anyone has a chance to purchase it. There is the guy that has always wanted one, and the guy that thinks I can buy that cheap and sell it to the guy that has always wanted one! 

Best of luck to who get there first and lays down the cash. No one is forcing anyone to buy a car from a 'flipper' so if the price isnt right the second time around, no sale. I would not mind buying an old car and turning around and selling it for a quick profit but my luck I would either want to keep it or it would end up selling at a loss to me. Those guys that take that chance then so be it. It doesnt really bother me all that much, but at least they could take a pic of the car for sale without it being on a trailer. I suppose if they start taking pics before it gets loaded up the seller may have a change of heart. I would have a lot less respect for a flipper knowing that they lowballed the seller with some kind of story that it was their dream car and they were  planning on keeping it forever though. I know a guy that did that!

[gungeey]

When I signed up they told me flipping was part of the hobby 🤠

[3macboys]

When you think about it isn't every retail store a flipper?  Not to mention every vendor at a swap meet and everyone selling parts on Ebay?  So where would you get your parts without "flippers"?  I think the "flippers" that draw the negative comments are the ones, and we all know one or two, who as @TAKerry say give a song and dance almost sob story to the poor widow seller coupled with a lowball offer and then turn around and try for top dollar while almost bragging how they got the car/house/parts.  No different than there's good and bad in every hobby, occupation etc.  It's just the bad apples that stink up the lot.

[STEVE POLLARD]

27 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

I would have a lot less respect for a flipper knowing that they lowballed the seller with some kind of story that it was their dream car and they were  planning on keeping it forever though

This happen to a close friend of mine. My friend, who happen to be my Spanish teacher in High School had three Chevrolet Camaros: 1967, 1968 and a 1969, he was down sizing and was selling the '69 & '67. This was back in the 1980's, my younger brother purchased the '69 for the asking price, but another local kid wanted the '67 really bad, but he didn't have enough money. Being the nice guy my friend is, he gave the kid a break and sold it to him... the following week, the kid sold the '67, double the price that he purchased it at. I don't have to tell you how mad my friend was ! 

Edited July 28 by STEVE POLLARD (see edit history)

[John Byrd]

I have "flipped" so many different things on my way to being able to afford what I really wanted, so NO, it seems like a perfectly normal way of doing things to me. I usually try to make the buyer offer what they think is a fair trade or price, and if that doesn't work, I'll ask if they think "X" would be too much. I always tell anything I have done or found that was wrong or not what I thought was correct about the item. I have also NEVER had anyone accuse me of cheating them or being mad because it wasn't as represented. Treat folks fair, don't lie or make up stories, and let them negotiate if they choose to. 

 

[Akstraw]

Just honest capitalism.  Willing buyers and willing sellers.

[Paul Dobbin]

New & used car dealers, flea market sellers and hobbiest who finance their hobby with flipping, even the Girl Scout Cookie sellers!

I agree it's capitalism  on personal level.   That's why there is Retail and Wholesale and Marketing.   if you have a market for what i'm selling, we can  make a deal.

Edited July 28 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

  I am a hobbyist and have done plenty of flipping to support my hobby. The sad fact here is that there are plenty of dishonest people out there that will do shady things on the buying and selling end of things just for profit and it paints a negative image for others. It is important to me to be honest in my dealing and that seller and buyer walks away happy. I've had a few cars and lots and lots of parts offered to me at very fair prices because the seller desired the items to be gone. Many times the items I've purchased may have ended up in a dumpster. They know I plan to resell and don't care because they don't want to put the work or expense into doing it themselves. 

[pmhowe]

41 minutes ago, STEVE POLLARD said:

. the following week, the kid sold the '67, double the price that he purchased it at. I don't have to tell you how mad my friend was ! 

To me, that is the down side of flipping.

[JV Puleo]

I think the worst thing about "flipping" is  the term itself. It implies a nonchalance, if not contempt for the item being sold and to some extent contempt for the ultimate buyer. There is nothing wrong with it in any legal or moral sense unless accompanied by lies like "I want it for my own collection" or "I've always wanted one of these" etc...taking advantage of a seller's best intentions. That is ethically wanting though not illegal. I will say that when I see a flipper buy something for a reasonable price, double it and sit on it forever I have absolutely no sympathy for their dilemma.

 

I think pkhammer, above has said it best.

Edited July 28 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Fordy]

I have no issues with it. What I do have issues with is the tendency for some people to "gloat" over how much money they have made in doing so. Classic examples to me are the shows "American Pickers" and the UK one "Salvage Hunters" - these guys try to screw the vendor down and then more than double or triple their outlay. Businesses they may be but the end "what's it worth?" does not truly reflect the value of the items in the marketplace and merely acts as an inflationary device.

There are also probably "cultural" issues with this that go against the grain with me. I perceive the US as "anything to make a quick buck and look out if you are in the way" - here the emphasis is more on "is it going to the right guy" rather than making big $$ in the transaction.

Steve

[George Smolinski]

The dishonest and illegal part of flipping come into play when someone buys a car and sells it without transferring the title to his name BEFORE selling it. The only people who can legally do that are dealers, 'cause they're special.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Like anything, rightness depends on one's

motives and actions.  Only the flipper and his

Maker know those for certain.

 

I might ask myself, did I pay the seller a fair price,

repair a few things to be constructive, and then

resell at an equally fair price?  Or did I get a "steal"

from a less-than-knowledgeable seller--who could

use a few thousand dollars extra himself--and then

do little else than try to double the price?  Did I

reveal all known flaws, or lie by omission and say

the buyer should have known?  Do I expect something

for nothing, or assiduously earn what I receive?

 

Excusing greed, or rationalizing greed, is never right.

Treating others well is appreciated and enhances

one's reputation in the long run.  Capitalism must be

honest capitalism.  Honesty helps the hobby. 

 

Edited July 28 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Walt G]

John your last paragraph says it all.

Walt

[Bhigdog]

You guys are trying to untangle a bowl of spaghetti. It,s a question with no correct answer. Every sale is different.

Not long ago i put an old pin ball machine on fb market place. I paid $20 for it maybe 20 years ago. My asking price was $900. Guy contacts me and says you,re not asking enough i,ll give you $1500.

I did the deal for 1500.

Should i have listed the game for what i paid? Was he going to flip the game? Did he over pay? Was i ripped off? Was he?

Of course there is no correct answer. I didn,t ask why he paid more, nor did i care. I made my sale and he got what he wanted.

There,s no one size fits all here other than it,s really really poor form to take advantage of an enfeebled person......bob

Edited July 28 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[mechanician]

Flipping, let's define it here as purchasing for immediate resale, is neither illegal nor immoral...however it does incentivize immoral or occasionally illegal behavior. Not every flipper does theses things, but enough do to give the practice a bad taste. In order for a "flip" to be successful either the initial purchase must be made under market, or the second sale must be over market.  As the flip is an immediate resale, there is no other way.

 

Is it unethical to buy under value? No, however it would be unethical to misrepresent one's intentions to secure an under market price. It may or may not be to take advantage of a truly uninformed seller (are they capable of researching the market, or do they just not care etc).  Is it less ethical to underpay as a hobbiest? It certainly feels better. It could be argued that a hobbiest is acting in the best interest of preserving the car etc.  When flippers claim something similar (I want to restore it, my grandfather had one) to reduce the sale price that is unethical, but probably not illegal.  Yet the flipper has a very real financial motivation to try.

 

Is it unethical to sell above market? No.  A buyer may come to his own determination of value.  However when his determination is based on a seller's knowingly inaccurate representation of the goods this is unethical and very possibly illegal (if sometimes tough to prove).  Is it unethical to take advantage of an uninformed buyer, maybe or maybe not.  Perhaps paying twice market makes no difference to him, and he wants it now.  Perhaps he has been pressured into buying before he can become informed (but that mistake may still be on the buyer, should he have known better?).  In any case, the flipper has a strong incentive to be less than forthright, to hide or even fabricate part of the story, to increase the sale price.  Many don't, but enough do to give the practice a bad taste.  Add to that other illegal activities such as avoiding taxes or circumventing title laws. Many don't, some do.  It helps their bottom line (or it seems that way in the short run).

 

Is a retail store a flipper?  No, they buy by the gross and sell by the unit.  If you want 100 cases of laundry detergent, you could get their price.  The store is outlaying their money to provide the goods in the quantity that you want.  If the market dries up before they sell out, its on them, they are taking risks and effort.  A dealer who buys an entire collection is doing this.  He may outlay hundreds of thousands to settle an estate.  The estate wants the matter resolved quickly and the dealer is taking financial risk and time value of money to make that quick sale happen, not a flip.  House flipping often entails work has been done, so this is really a different discussion, and possibly not a flip by my definition, but the trend is similar, cutting corners may enhance the flipper's bottom line, but that's another matter.

 

Is it ethical for folks here to call out a flip, absolutely.  A free market does best with transparency.  It may be harder to "take advantage" of somebody, but it is also harder to feel sorry for those who were taken advantage of because they didn't put in the effort.  It is good for all of us, even the ethical flippers, to know the state of the market. 

 

 

[rocketraider]

If someone buys a house/car/whatever cheap and then spends some cash to improve it before marking up the price for profit, I have no problem with flipping.

 

It's when someone buys something cheap, does absolutely nothing to improve it and immediately attempts to double or triple the investment that ethics enter the picture.

 

I have known too many people in my life who not only have absolutely no ethics, but are proud of the fact they've screwed people over to get where they are.

[Reynard]

1 hour ago, rocketraider said:

If someone buys a house/car/whatever cheap and then spends some cash to improve it before marking up the price for profit, I have no problem with flipping.

 

It's when someone buys something cheap, does absolutely nothing to improve it and immediately attempts to double or triple the investment that ethics enter the picture.

 

"Ethics are distinct from morals in that they're much more practical. A moral precept is an idea or opinion that's driven by a desire to be good. An ethical code is a set of rules that defines allowable actions or correct behavior. An ethical code doesn't have to be moral"  -- Quoteth Mr Google

[alsancle]

Only have two issues with flippers:

 

1.  Take the car off the trailer to take pictures.

 

2.  Don't be disingenuous when you are trying to buy the car or resell it. 

 

 

[TAKerry]

The 'hobby' of old cars has been big business for probably as long as its been a hobby.

 

My wife hated those 'Picker' guys when I would watch that show. She would say exactly the same thing. That they were ripping people off. I saw what they did as a bit different in that they at least advertised what they were doing. They would be upfront and tell the person the retail is 50. and I need to make a profit so I will pay you 20. I find nothing wrong with that, after all the seller could hold out and sell retail for themselves. I would suspect 98% of what is on their show is fake or put on anyway so it doesnt make a lot of difference.

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

1.  Take the car off the trailer to take pictures.

X some large exponent. I laugh every time I see it and end up with The Rodeo Song stuck in my head the rest of the day. "Go get 'em Johnny!"

[EmTee]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

1.  Take the car off the trailer to take pictures.

Unless free shipping is part of the deal... 

[Dandy Dave]

Is it flipping if I buy something, Do some repairs on it, Have some fun with it. Get tired of it and want something different so sell it at what may seem a profit years later? Also, I need room for what is coming in the door next. All the while the dollar has devalued so did I actually make a profit? I ask myself this all the time. I'm a die hard collector. I also sometimes buy something and then sometimes sell it. Sometimes I pay too much. I did not mind as I cannot put a value on how much fun I had with it. I could have Drank, Drugged, or Gambled the money away like some do. I chose my drug of choice as old iron. Some I have made a profit on. Some I have been up side down in. I guess it was all right as I sure had fun doing it. I love an Auction. I once bought a rare and early automobile chassis for $27 from an estate of an old friend that past away. Spent some money on trying to get some parts for it to get it back together. Had about $300 in it when years later I decided to sell it as hope of putting it back together was slim. I sold it for $3200. With this I was able to buy some tools to help a lot with my other restorations. I did not intentionally screw anyone as I bought the item as the highest bidder the day I purchased it. It's a pretty thin line to walk at times as is it moral, or ethical? My Dad would have said it was just good business. 

Edited July 28 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[gungeey]

"Long flippers"?

I do that, too...

20-25 years ago ebay was the wild wild west of old car parts. If I saw something I might use "someday", or a part that currently held little value but thought it might be of far greater value in the future ( NOS parts) and the cost to purchase was determined by myself to be a good or even great deal I would purchase it should the item tickle my fancy. 

Decades later, at what price should I be dictated to sell those same parts? 

 

[Joe Cocuzza]

5 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

Is it flipping if I buy something, Do some repairs on it, Have some fun with it. Get tired of it and want something different so sell it at what may seem a profit years later?  

Absolutely not. I do the same thing and most of the time I lose money - mainly because I may need the money/room quickly to buy another car I found and want (as a matter of fact that may be happenong again). That is "normal" as most of us "collectors" usually do not keep our cars forever. (Some do, however)

[Walt G]

3 minutes ago, Joe Cocuzza said:

most of us "collectors" usually do not keep our cars forever.

I think that many collectors for the most part want to keep everything they find and buy. But space, economics and reality get in the way of doing that. I never bought an old car that I didn't want to keep for ever and wish I still owned.  Even looking at what I now own , I think of what parted here and wish it was sitting next to what I do have. I do take great pride seeing cars I did own now in the collections of happy owners who drive them................ We all have reasons for what we buy - some for bragging rights, but some of us for the beauty and wonder of the object and the fact it has survived so many lifetimes and decades.

This also goes for information and period material. Some bask in the glory that they know because they have and everyone else is below that. I do not and my thought about that would be edited out of here if my comments on that sort of character were printed. Same goes for people who want a title because it gives them status. I had a former Mayor of our village tell me "you do the job you get the glory" and I told him immediately afterwards in a normal voice but somewhat elevated in tone " I have never ever done anything for "glory" and never will , I do things because it is the right thing to do or share" He had no reply.................

[playswithbrass]

And don’t come on this forum for that poorly concealed flipper question “ Look at what I just got! What do you all think it’s worth?” It’s worth exactly what someone will give you for it! Our suspicion is you didn’t deal very openly with the seller. Our poorly concealed hope is that you are now stuck with it. But if you buy something and put time and money into it you are entitled to a return 

[alsancle]

My model is to "Buy High and Sell Low".  Much easier to do than the opposite.

[60FlatTop]

14 minutes ago, playswithbrass said:

And don’t come on this forum for that poorly concealed flipper question “ Look at what I just got! What do you all think it’s worth?” It’s worth exactly what someone will give you for it! Our suspicion is you didn’t deal very openly with the seller. Our poorly concealed hope is that you are now stuck with it. But if you buy something and put time and money into it you are entitled to a return 

I like this one best. Buyers and sellers play that one.

 

"Conniver" is a word that has fallen out of use in today's language. And rightfully so, I do a lot of buying and selling still and I am far more willing to trust a younger person, under 50, than I am one over 50. The older they are the more I distrust. And I am an old guy. Some of my big scores have been letting an old goat thing he was cheating me out of an item. They project their values into the other.

 

When I was a kid working in the tie shop in the early to mid-1960s those people 10 to 30 years older than I drove around with their trunks loaded with stolen stuff from their workplace, construction sites, factories, you name it, pilferers, petty thieves. I don't see that in young people today but I bet there are still some old guys hauling stuff around that they will never use. They just took it.

 

I have a sledge hammer out in my garage that a 90 year old gave me out of a locked box on his pickup. I was having coffee and mentioned I needed to buy one. I told him I was not giving it back because he was too old to be swinging it, if he ever had, and that he probably stole it off a construction site. Should have seen the big grin on him that morning. Morals and ethics.

[Bhigdog]

4 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I don't see that in young people today

That's only because they don't work in factories or construction. Who wants to steal a ream of copy paper?............Bob

[plymouthcranbrook]

I used to work with a guy who roamed estate sales in his spare time looking for antiques or anything he might sell for profit. He and his daughter had a store in a high end suburb of Chicago. I would kid him about it when he would mention this or that that he got that was a really good deal.  He answered this way: I paid them what they asked for it. This was back in the 80’s so maybe things were different then but I couldn’t argue with him about it.

Edited July 28 by plymouthcranbrook (see edit history)

[Walt G]

47 minutes ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

I paid them what they asked for it.

I have no problem with that at all. You make the choice.

But I am also thinking Hershey is only  a little over 2 months away and I will again have to deal with the people who come up and state " I'll give yaz" " do bedda"  "wood ja take" so will once again make signs stating I will not and that if the same buyer saw the item I have on ebay they would 1) not see condition in person 2) pay sales tax 3) pay shipping and postage . Many years ago a long time friend named Phil Dumka of Mass. would set up and sell literature in the Blue Field. I was standing there when a "customer" came up and looked at a color folder for a 1957 Ford. Phil had about 6 of the same item. The price was $6.00  The perspective buyer looked at Phil and told him "I'll give jaz $2.00"  Phil looked at me and I just knew he was going to react somehow. He asked to see the folder and the guy handed it to him and Phil proceeded to tear off a significant corner of that folder. I thought the guy was going to choke and pass out. Phil told him " here is the $2.00 version" . The guy said nothing just staggered away in disbelief. Phil looked at me and said " I have wanted to do that forever and I just got even for so many people who had to deal with that kind of guy".  I really miss my friend Phil Dumka.

Edited July 28 by Walt G (see edit history)

[erichill]

Way I see it the flipper is finding the cars that the buyer otherwise would not have.  The flipper is the one chasing down barn finds, craigslist deals and estate sales .  They are working to make their money.  Will never be me as I have never made money selling a vehicle.

[CarNucopia]

You've all helped me identify what my problem is:

It never occurred to me that I could sell the cars I buy...☺️

 

 

 

 

[ia-k]

What was said or the intent stated by the buyer at the time of the sale?

 

Several cars/parts and collectibles of my parents when they passed away were sold to AACA members of the local club or family acquaintances as I thought I would give them first chance as some of these buyers I considered friends of the family .  Each one said how they were so interested in the items, great addition to their collections, been wanting one for years, blah, blah, blah. 

 

So, in going through my parent's stuff found some extra sets of keys, various spare parts, etc... that went to some of these vehicles. Disappointing when I stopped by to drop the items off and found out that within a month of purchasing the car they had "flipped" it. 

 

Was I misled when selling the car to them? Yes. Was I outright lied to when I sold it to them? Yes. 

 

I know once the title was signed they were free to do whatever with the car but to being lied to just so they could get a "good deal" knowing full well they had no intention on keeping it really caused me to lose faith in these "friends".

Edited July 28 by ia-k (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

Flipping is fine by most of us, as we see buying and selling as ultimately market transactions. 

 

On the other hand, you can imagine a market transaction with a very personal component that might make us uncomfortable.  Imagine a little old lady who is selling her ailing husband's old car to help pay for his longterm medical care.  He has dementia, and is in a long-term care facility.  She needs the money, and she trusts people.  She knows someone in town who likes old cars, and she says, "I don't know what it's worth, but name a price.  I trust you."  Buyer sees that the car is a Shelby GT350, but he says, "Old Mustangs are common.  I could offer you $10,000 for this."   She sell sit to him for that amount. The next day, he offers it for sale for $300,000— a price that he gets. 

 

This is a legal market transaction, and the buyer did not lie.    But I suspect a lot of us would feel that there's something slimy about this.  Totally legal.  But kinda slimy.  The seller's lack of market knowledge is understandable, and she needed the money to help her husband.  The windfall to the buyer from this slight amount of market knowledge is massive.  Legal, but kinda slimy.

 

 

Edited July 28 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

On 7/27/2024 at 5:52 PM, pmhowe said:

To me, that is the down side of flipping.

It's the downside of being taken. Learn from your mistakes is the upside. That's called flipping too!

Edited July 30 by Pfeil (see edit history)