Old car for a permanent daily driver

[StanleyRegister]

After having several shops wrestle with my not-very-old car (2004) due to large wiring, signaling, and sensor problems, I have had it with cars that must have electronics to move.  Things are only going to get "better", with software-dependent cars that will stop when they can no longer take the latest operating system.  (Think iPhone 4.)  There is no future for me in the world of new cars.  Now I have to go backward in time, permanently.

 

So I want to find something that will last around 30 years (probably won't be driving after that), take care of me, and be rock-simple.  These days even something from the '60s or '70s is thought to be an antique, yet those cars were used by millions of people for daily driving, from groceries to cross-country.  And they needed no electronic management systems.

 

Here's what the car needs:

 

1.  Enough acceleration to be sufficiently agile in town.

2.  80 mph on the highway without strain.

3.  Not too big - the lamented PT Cruiser is a good size for my garage, though I don't expect to find something quite that small.

4.  Weather-tight.

5.  Fairly quiet inside.

6.  Air conditioned.

7.  Cruise control.

8.  Reasonably tight handling in curves, doesn't need to be a sports car.  Maybe radials would be enough.

9.  Rust resistant.  I don't want to be struggling with rotting panels, and unfortunately it seems like a lot of steel was pretty poor in that era.  And I'm in the northeast in the winter time.

10.  Most service can be accomplished with a set of sockets, a set of combination wrenches, some screwdrivers, and a couple of pullers, brake, and suspension tools.

11.  No electronic fuel or ignition management systems.  (Might grudgingly accept a Pertronix or the like.)

12.  A shape that will be pleasant to look at for a long time.  Highly subjective of course.  (The PT Cruiser was suppposed to be that.)

13.  Some carrying capacity - wouldn't have to be more than a trunk & a back seat.

14.  Good availability of parts.  I know that can change, but broad part availability now would be good, and I can stock up on consumables.

 

It definitely needs to have hydraulic brakes, and electric wipers, and a good defroster.  ☺️

 

My first thought goes to a '65 Mustang coupe, mild restomod with a slightly warmed-up straight 6 (I love the engine access), 3-speed w/OD or 5-speed, disc brakes, alternator.  And a good honest carburetor.

 

But there must be other stuff that would meet the need just as well, or better.  What would you suggest?

[1912Staver]

Do you live somewhere where rust is rare to non existent ? If not I would avoid a Mustang. . Great cars , but food for tinworms.

Edited November 1, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Brass is Best]

Model A Ford set up for touring or any 1950's car from the big three.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Brass is Best (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

How about any Buick with a 3800 engine built after 1991?    I chose 1991 because that was an engine upgrade, actually anything back to 1988 when they added the balance shaft is good. 

You have a wide range to choose from... Park Ave, Lesabre,  Regal, Riviera,  and Reatta but is just a 2 seater.   There were some problems with the 3800 intake when they switched to plastic but

aftermarket replacements are available.    And if you want it to perform like a V8 get one with the supercharged 3800.    These cars will still have potential problems as you get later years and more

electronics were added.   The 3800 engine itself is extremely reliable, and gets very good gas mileage (on regular) .   Olds  Pontiac and Impala (and Camaro) also used the 3800 during that time but the Buick 

had more standard features.    

[Frank DuVal]

Corvair!

 

Let's see:

36 minutes ago, StanleyRegister said:

 

1.  Enough acceleration to be sufficiently agile in town.  CHECK

2.  80 mph on the highway without strain. CHECK

3.  Not too big - the lamented PT Cruiser is a good size for my garage, though I don't expect to find something quite that small. Maybe CHECK

4.  Weather-tight. CHECK well, some resealing required on glass typically on 50 year old cars.

5.  Fairly quiet inside. Hmm, Nothing in the 60s except maybe high end cars have good insulation.

6.  Air conditioned. CHECK

7.  Cruise control. Nope, none ever had, but aftermarket systems have been installed on many back in the day. 

8.  Reasonably tight handling in curves, doesn't need to be a sports car.  Maybe radials would be enough. CHECK and DOUBLE CHECK

9.  Rust resistant.  I don't want to be struggling with rotting panels, and unfortunately it seems like a lot of steel was pretty poor in that era.  And I'm in the northeast in the winter time.

Wait, NOTHING before the late 80s had much inner section rustproofing. SO, if you want rust resistance, you get electronics.

10.  Most service can be accomplished with a set of sockets, a set of combination wrenches, some screwdrivers, and a couple of pullers, brake, and suspension tools. CHECK

11.  No electronic fuel or ignition management systems.  (Might grudgingly accept a Pertronix or the like.) CHECK, points work fine.

12.  A shape that will be pleasant to look at for a long time.  Highly subjective of course.  (The PT Cruiser was suppposed to be that.) CHECK, to most people, just choose the style you like.

13.  Some carrying capacity - wouldn't have to be more than a trunk & a back seat. CHECK

14.  Good availability of parts.  I know that can change, but broad part availability now would be good, and I can stock up on consumables. CHECK and DOUBLE CHECK

So, most boxes checked. And fairly good fuel economy for the day.

[zepher]

How about a '71 to '74 Camaro?
Still relatively cheap, can get one with AC and they will run and stop with modern traffic all day long.

I didn't include '75 only because they had HEI ignition (which is very reliable) but they also had catalytic converters.

 

The '75 Camaro, 350cid/350TH, that I owned was a great driver and if I had the space I would most likely own another one as an everyday car.

[John_S_in_Penna]

3 hours ago, StanleyRegister said:

So I want to find something that will last around 30 years...

Rust resistant... I'm in the northeast in the winter time.

I'm typically very optimistic and encouraging.

Old cars are enjoyable and enhance one's experience.

However, I will say that absolutely no car will meet your criteria.

 

Driving a car daily, using it in winter without rust,

and expecting to get 30 years out of it:  Those

criteria, sorry to say, are so restrictive that no product

will even come close to serving you well.

 

You might get a 1980's or 1990's Honda, Toyota, or Nissan

(before Nissan was bought out by Renault, it was 

as reliable as the others) and get 200,000 miles.

They make some interesting cars.  But you should have

a winter "beater" to avoid winter driving in your old car.

 

All the best to you in your search!

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

Chevy Nova, 230-250" six all the way up to 79, in fact 1975-79 is the best or the Omega, Ventura-Phoenix, Skylark that are based on Nova. Early HEI is very reliable.

Ford Falcon 200" six, Merc Comet, Maverick later Fairlane 61-67 Fairlane is best with 200hp 289

Valiant-Dart 225 six

Datsun LB110, B210- 510-610-710, heck a 76 B210 Honeybee will do 100 and gets 42MPG! 

Early non EFI VW Rabbit or diesel Rabbit, back in the mid 70's I had a diesel Rabbit on the Autobahn doing 90mph on the flat and level.

A 71-74 VW beetle & will hit 80mph with stock dual port 1600

BMW 1600- 2002 

 

The cars above are simple and easy to work on and you won't come out of the engine compartment looking like you were in a fight with a bear or bobcat. With the exception of the VW beetle and its tin sealing the engine compartment, the rest of the cars when you open the hood you can actually see the ground!   

[Pfeil]

16 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I'm typically very optimistic and encouraging.

Old cars are enjoyable and enhance one's experience.

However, I will say that absolutely no car will meet your criteria.

 

Driving a car daily, using it in winter without rust,

and expecting to get 30 years out of it:  Those

criteria, sorry to say, are so restrictive that no product

will even come close to serving you well.

 

You might get a 1980's or 1990's Honda, Toyota, or Nissan

(before Nissan was bought out by Renault, it was 

as reliable as the others) and get 200,000 miles.

They make some interesting cars.  But you should have

a winter "beater" to avoid winter driving in your old car.

 

All the best to you in your search!

 

Nissan was not bought out; they were 43% bought into and Nissan owns 15% of Renault (3.8 billion) and their products are as good or better than before. Just more complicated like every other manufacturer. These days they are easily 200-250,000+-mile machines.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Dodge Dart or Plymouth Valiant

[wyankee]

I know this is out of the norm, but when I lived in Florida I noticed quite a few Checkers being owned personally as daily drivers.Thinking outside the box, but they were known to last.

[PAV8427]

Lots of 77-84 GM B-bodys still around. 
Some are even very well cared for. 
Doubles as truck if you can find a wagon. 

[carbking]

Your criteria number 9 is a killer.

 

We got 440,000 miles over about 20 years from a 1979 Ford van with a upgrade to a 4-speed from a Ford 4WD, and the original 300 CID engine (with a carburetor upgrade ).

 

We repaired the rust twice, and gave up when it was rusted out the third time.

 

The ONLY issue (other than normal tune-up, and tires twice, and exhaust once was replacing the electronic ignition 13 times! (And people pay to get rid of perfectly good point systems???).

 

I know this vehicle doesn't fit a lot of your criteria, but I posted only to suggest that drive-trains will out-last the rust-bugs!

 

I really doubt 30 years in the northeast in winter is doable with ANY single vehicle. Possibly find (over time) three of the same model, and keep two on blocks for the first 10 years.

 

Jon

Edited October 12, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

62 Buick skylark with the small v8. Great car, economical, fast, good looking, parts available. 
but misses some boxes as most cars do. 
dave s 

[8E45E]

Like some others have said, a post-Malaise Era car or light truck (crew cabs were gaining in popularity) from the mid-1980's.  They were/are reliable enough without sophisticated electronics, and the designers were finally starting to work with the ugly hang-on bumpers from the 1970's by then.  Your choice as for brand and body style, but find the nicest, low-mileage example you can find with decent paint.  One will be over their head with a paint job alone as, with few exceptions, don't sell for much, combined with the cost to properly paint a car today.   And being a 'later' car, you will probably have no regrets racking up the miles on it as it ages gracefully, unlike a 1960's car.

 

Craig

Edited October 12, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[A Woolf]

This is an interesting discussion and I think it is going to be a lot more important in the future.

 

Your original idea about a Mustang is a good one.  Lots of aftermarket parts are available and they are pretty simple to work on.  You might want to consider a car with a 289 or 302.  Many early V8 Mustangs were swapped to 302s early in their life.  It is a good upgrade. With A/C and automatic transmission I suspect a six-cylinder car will be a weak performer especially in heavy traffic.  The rust issue is a big problem and maybe undercoating or some other form of rust barrier could help.  

 

Chevrolet Nova’s aren’t bad cars but the six with A/C and automatic is going to be a bit on the weak side. I have a lot of experience with six-cylinder Nova’s and like them but in modern traffic their performance will likely be disappointing.

 

How about a pickup truck?  70’s, 80’s, and early 90’s full-size pickups generally manage to avoid all of the “upgrades” that add complexity to cars.   For Chevy’s in particular parts are available and they are simple and pretty reliable. Parts are also available. The big downside to the pickups is gas mileage.  My daily driver is a 07 F-150.  It gets lousy gas mileage but I don’t drive that much and it serves as an important tool for hauling parts and supplies for my car restorations.  

 

For some young person I think there will be a good business opportunity in the future to acquire and rebuild “modern” antiques that are good daily drivers.  The latest and greatest cars with all of the bells and whistles are not for everyone.

 

Alan 

[joe_padavano]

My daily driver is a 1985 Oldsmobile Delta 88. It still has a computer-controlled carb and distributor, but it's a pretty rudimentary system. Everything else I have is older than that. There are a few things to consider.

 

First, there are few "mechanics" around who actually know how to diagnose problems. Most only know how to read the codes from the computer and replace the parts that the manual says to replace. Without a computer, you're at the mercy of these clowns if you aren't doing the work yourself (I do all my own work, so this is not an issue for me).

 

Second, parts will not be on the shelf at the local auto parts store. If this is your primary mode of transportation, you'll either need a backup when this one is down waiting on parts, or you'll need to stockpile critical parts. I do the latter, though since nearly everything I own is a 1960s-80s Oldsmobile, many of the parts are common across years and models. Even something as simple as a sealed beam headlight bulb or windshield wiper blades can require online ordering and a wait for delivery.

 

Third, most insurance companies will give you a hassle if you want collision and comprehensive coverage. The problem is that crash repair parts can be difficult to nearly impossible to find for an older car, and insurance companies don't want the hassle. They can't develop actuarial models for older cars because the database is so limited. They'll either charge you a fortune to limit their risk or refuse to offer that coverage. And don't think you'll get away with classic car insurance on a daily driver. Those policies are low cost specifically because they have restrictions on how and where you can use the vehicle. This is done specifically to limit the insurance company's risk.

 

Fourth, if the vehicle is not well supported in the aftermarket, you'll likely need a parts car for the unobtanium stuff that breaks. The biggest problem is plastic parts that are aged by UV exposure, and frankly, most parts cars will have the same problem. I'm fortunate to have the acreage to keep parts cars. Most people do not.

 

Finally, rust never sleeps. Unless you get a Corvette, Fiero, or GM "dustbuster" van with non-metallic body panels, this will always be a problem.

 

None of this is meant to discourage you. I have been doing exactly the same thing as you - I recently replaced my 1999 GM truck with problematic electronics with a 1980 model. Just make this decision with your eyes open.

[58L-Y8]

Although it doesn't meet all your criteria, this Dodge Dart might be a good fit for the most part:

 

[Bhigdog]

OTOH..........The last two vehicles I bought new have never been back to the dealers. I usually have a bit over 100K on them when I trade in. They have NO grease fittings. I never open the hood between oil changes @ 7500 miles. The plugs (where ever they are) last 100, 000 miles. There is no timing or points. The transmission is sealed. The AC/heater  keeps the vehicle at whatever setting I choose. In the winter the seats are nice and warm. To start it I just press a button. There is no choke or carb to adjust. It gets good mileage, rides great, steers easy and stops on a dime.

Every 5000 miles I put it on my lift to rotate the tires and look underneath. Nope, nothing to do under here. It tells me if a tire is low and when to change the oil.

I remember when I was a kid in the fifties a trip from NJ to Western PA was a safari. Plugs were cleaned and gaped, oil checked and an extra qt or two put in the trunk along with the tool box. Tires all checked and maybe the brakes adjusted. Water checked along with the brake fluid and maybe a "lube" job. etc etc etc.

I would not hesitate to get in my car this minute and drive to California checking only the gas gauge. And I wouldn't even need a map.

The good old days with their good old cars. You can have them..................Bob

[Andy J]

My daily driver is a 2002 Buick Century with the 3.1 engine. No rust anywhere because we don't use any de-icing products during the winter in Mississippi.Not a large car,but plenty of room and comfortable.A little weak on hills,but acceptable.This car likes 80-85 mph on the highway,but of course you know the speed limit.At 70 mph it down shifts a little too often on rolling hills,but on the flats it's just fine.In my topography 70 is just too slow.I plan on driving this car until I can no longer drive(I'm 70).Also,it has a really great A/C which is much needed where I live.

[TTR]

10 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

…, I will say that absolutely no car will meet your criteria.

100% agreed.

While I’m not familiar with OPs maintenance, repair and service skills, his/her potential access to such for next 3 decades or what type of year round, “daily driving” realistically (5K, 10K, 20K a year ? 5-7 days a week, etc) is expected/intended in that timeframe, but just based on some and not a even all aforementioned requirements, as far as I know, no pre-electronics era, i.e. 50+ y.o. vehicle will fit the bill.

 

OTOH, should he/she or someone wish to prove me incorrect, I’d be very interested to hear about it in 30 years from now and even buy them a nice dinner at a place of their choosing, just to learn about that experience. Heck, I could even eat my hat as a dessert.

 

P.S. Not sure if it due to my reading comprehension of OPs “requirements”, but even based on just technicalities, seems like most of the vehicles suggested by others do not qualify.

Edited October 12, 2022 by TTR (see edit history)

[EmTee]

1983 Mercedes 300D

[West Peterson]

10 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I'm typically very optimistic and encouraging.

Old cars are enjoyable and enhance one's experience.

However, I will say that absolutely no car will meet your criteria.

 

Driving a car daily, using it in winter without rust,

and expecting to get 30 years out of it:  Those

criteria, sorry to say, are so restrictive that no product

will even come close to serving you well.

 

 

Truth. Pretty much end of discussion. You need to refine your criteria, or, as John also said, find a "winter beater" as well.

[John Bloom]

I have been into old cars my entire life and I’m 57 years old. I’ve also lived in the upper Midwest most of my life. My suggestion is by what we call a salt car. Something dependable, but not pretty and cheap and let it decompose and throw it away and get another one every four or five years.  There’s always a well-maintained used sedan out there for $2000 and the person has gone into assisted living or given up their drivers license and it’s not stylish but it’s reliable and has been well cared for. Pick those things up and drive until they are unreliable and then throw them away and get another one. And use your older classic cars for good weather. This formula has worked well for me my whole life. I’ve always had a beater for the winter.

 

your criteria of not having an electronic ignition, means my method won’t work for you, I just suggest it for your consideration.

[Porsche 68]

For an every beater I have a 97 VW Passat turbo diesel Got rod of my gas hogging 1 ton dodge 10 miles to the gallon VW gets 53 mpg on the highway it’s not at at all rusty Mon Wed Fri I have dialysis so the VW is it other than that I drive my 34 Dodge coupe every day and I love it John

[Terry Bond]

You're asking for something even automobile manufacturers have never been able to create!

They all seem to have their issues - now, or later.

Terry

[TAKerry]

I like the idea of a Benz diesel and in MD it would be emissions exempt. But being the owner of a 'newer' Mercedes the maintenance may be more than a domestic car. Same with anything european I would surmise. I think a late 70s early 80s GM lesabre, delta, caprice etc. would fit the bill. A mustang or camaro is nice and sporty but they are kinda small. I would want something that I can carry something if need be. The big thing to keep in mind is to keep it as a 'utility vehicle'. You cant worry about wearing it out, rust, paint getting bad etc. Drive it until it falls apart. I bought a Ford Expidition 6 years ago for $4k. It had 100k miles at the time was an '04 model. I figured if it lasted 2 years I would be ok. It is now ready to be replaced as the rust is starting to get out of hand. 

[StanleyRegister]

Thanks everyone for these excellent thoughts and observations.  To respond to some of the points -

 

I've been doing some of my own work since my first car, a '48 Plymouth bought in 1973.  That needed an engine installed and I added a B-W overdrive.  I probably wouldn't want to take on a full engine rebuild, but I can do a lot of simple diagnosis and replacement work, up to replacing a turbo on an '85 Omni GLH.  The ease-of-service criteria are so I can be the one to work on it.  The Chrysler dealership, limited to young guys with factory flowcharts and OBD 9 or whatever, got completely stuck on the '04 PT Cruiser and actually gave up.  (Without telling me.)  I understand most modern service outfits won't be helpful for the proposed car. 

 

I grasp the rust problem.  I figured it would be one of the hardest parts, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

 

I'm probably in the typical driving range, 10-12,000 miles per year.  I'm convinced that people were doing that with production cars 50 years ago.  More periodic maintenance than a 2022 car, but I can do that.  Grease fittings, plugs, points & condenser, lots of oil changes, etc. - I'm happy doing that if the mechanism is simple and accessible.

 

And, hmm, at 30 years that would be 360,000 miles.  I can see how that might be a challenge for what was being produced 50 years ago, and again appreciate your thoughts on the possible need for multiple cars over time.  I'm hoping excellent maintenance and the ability to replace worn-out components (and stockpiling those parts) would get me pretty far along.

 

I don't mind modifications or upgrades to get closer to the ideal, as long as they don't have too many wires.  :-)

[JACK M]

Slant six will go 300,000 miles easily.

If I were you and serious, I would jump on that four speed car.

[Frank DuVal]

12 hours ago, Pfeil said:

BMW 1600- 2002 

 

12 hours ago, Pfeil said:

The cars above are simple and easy to work on

I see you have never replaced the heater core in one of these impossible cars.....🤣

[Frank DuVal]

4 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

rust never sleeps. Unless you get a Corvette,

I've done rust repair to Corvette frames! Steel is steel. Similar to Avanti rust issues, plastic car, steel is still the structure.

[carbking]

7 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

I see you have never replaced the heater core in one of these impossible cars.....🤣

 

Every vehicle has at least one part constructed from unobtainium, or if obtainable, verypricium.

 

Additionally, every vehicle has one part that was laying on the floor, and the rest of the vehicle was assembled around this part. To replace this part, the entire vehicle must be disassembled.

 

Often, this part is the heater core!   

 

Jon

[Gary_Ash]

How about a Grumman LLV postal truck?  They have been running for 25-30 years with their Iron Duke 4’s and auto trans, why not 30 more years!  Ok, there is no A/C, they are right-hand drive, and a little short on creature comforts. But soon, maybe 100,000+ of them will be available cheap. Buy a six-pack to have spares. 🤣

 

[8E45E]

One car that I've seen on the road is the Ford Festiva, (aka Kia).  They may be impractical as they are a small 2 door hatch, but sure seem to last a long time.

 

Craig

[F&J]

17 hours ago, StanleyRegister said:

And I'm in the northeast in the winter time.

I'm in CT where cars and trucks dissolve not only from salt but also dampness, rain, etc. Even water trapped in hidden places when you wash the car, won't dry out.

 

There is a local old guy here that has a 74 Ford pickup bought new as his only vehicle.  It is not rusted but he spends a lot of time oiling everything, and smearing grease every where he can reach.  Most people would never do these messy looking tasks twice a year or once a year.   There are no cars that won't rot away here in CT without such extreme measures like that guy does. 

 

I have not owned a semi modern car since 1995.  Then about 20 years ago i became single, so now there is no semi modern car here to borrow from a spouse.

 

If you only have a vintage car like me, and can't borrow one for when you have to leave the car in a place where it could be stolen or stripped while in a store, or parked in a big lot for a day, then you can't imagine how stressful it is.   

 

It gets old, worrying about a collector car whenever you park it.   I'd buy something that nobody would care to steal.  

 

and yes it's good to get away from electronics in cars, but you will give up some MPG for one thing. 

 

 

[JamesR]

17 hours ago, StanleyRegister said:

There is no future for me in the world of new cars.  Now I have to go backward in time, permanently.

It seems to me that you're looking for a poetic solution to a practical problem. Rarely a good approach. I love old cars, but if you're looking for a daily driver, you might check out an 8 to 12 year old Toyota with 100,000 miles or less on it. I bought a good one several years ago for under 6 grand and it's been an awesome car.  They'll be priced higher nowadays with the crazy car market.

 

 

[1935Packard]

The topic of daily driving an antique car comes up from time to time at the forum.  Seems to me that, if you really want those things, buy a 10 year old Toyota sedan.   It will likely last forever and need almost no maintenance.  Anyway, some of the old threads:

 

 

 

[1935Packard]

JamesR, great minds think alike!  We posted the same thought at the same time.... 

[SC38dls]

That’s Gracie and Sophie, my two golden doodles. Sophie made it 15+ years and Gracie 16+ years. We lost Gracie just before Hershey. My two blondes that rode in the backseat and my wife didn’t mind. 
dave s 

[Porsche 68]

I was a Mercedes Porsche mechanic for years in the 80s The older 300D diesels are built like tanks get a real well maintained one 88-95 I’ve had 3 4 hundred thousand miles without a single problem Oil changes every 3 thousand miles brakes tires that’s about it The ride wonderfully quiet  Just don’t buy a 240D painfully slow but also lasts forever