Perfect or Driver?

[BobinVirginia]

I’ve noticed a huge difference in opinion about cars. Some folks are all about a perfect show car and others like driving and less perfection.  I personally would take a fun well sorted car of less value than a show queen any day. I’m hoping my opinion is the majority 

Edited April 3, 2022 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[Bryan G]

I respect both sides of the coin; I'm most definitely in the "drive it" category. I've probably put 100 miles on my 49 in the last week, a "30-footer".  It does me no good to have a fully-restored vehicle, but I'm glad some folks are able to preserve them that way. I'm not sure I'll ever enter another show as I have no desire to sit still that long. 

[dibarlaw]

Bob, I hope I am part of that majority. As director of the Mason-Dixon BCA chapter, I had always been frustrated by those members who would not bring a car out to our show because of some slight imperfection "the corner of the bumper had a slight tweak". Heaven forbids to actually drive the car on a local tour. I have no use for a vehicle that is not serviceable as intended. But that is me.

[Joe Cocuzza]

I like a "Perfect" driver

[JV Puleo]

I find the "perfect" — or perhaps we should say "show cars," to be both superficial and artificial. I'm reminded of the late Ralph Stein's comment that they were "model cars on a 1:1 scale." IF you can pull that off on a car that is otherwise sorted so that it is mechanically sound, so much the better...that is not what I'm talking about. I am reminded of Ed's comment that something like 99% of the perfect cars aren't — and that many of them are downright unsafe to drive. And, at the risk of offending some people, I feel that the over emphasis on cosmetic perfection has not done car collecting any favors. My guess is that many of the "100 point" cars are over restored, making a mockery of the "as it came from the factory" goal.  Years ago a close friend spent a lot of money restoring a 1923 SG Piccadilly roadster. We were driving down Route 95, through Providence in it when he commented that it had been a mistake.  His comment was "how can I enjoy a car when I've got $10,000 in a fender." As good as that restoration was, the car was not as smooth as his previous Ghost (unrestored, with 14,000 original miles on it) or his next one, the so-called "William Brewster" LHD Ghost that I see was for sale a short time ago.

[hidden_hunter]

Can’t afford a perfect car so we’ll go with driver 

[BobinVirginia]

3 minutes ago, dibarlaw said:

Bob, I hope I am part of that majority. As director of the Mason-Dixon BCA chapter, I had always been frustrated by those members who would not bring a car out to our show because of some slight imperfection "the corner of the bumper had a slight tweak". Heaven forbids to actually drive the car on a local tour. I have no use for a vehicle that is not serviceable as intended. But that is me.

The opinion of perfection is obviously subjective. I hope I never have a car I can’t enjoy 

[Marty Roth]

We drove the 1934 Buick for a dozen years,

then did a "Body-on chassis" full restoration

Back then you went for the First Junior, and possibly even the Senior on the first year,

the Grand National First couldn't come until a successive year, and we got ours the 2nd year,

with a Senior Grand National AACA the third year .

 

By that time our '34 Buick was an "Object d'Art", and we had other fun cars to tour,

so it was passed to the next caretaker.

 

Three of our other cars:

1915 Hudson

1930 Packard

1988 Corvette,

have achieved AACA Senior and repeat Preservation Status,

and we do not plan to go farther in show, other than perhaps additional Repeat Preservation.

 

We drive them as they were meant to be enjoyed,

just as we drive our

HPOF Original 1937 Buick,

and our DPC

1954 Cadillac and 1965 Corvair.

 

Now that the 1995 Mercury Grand Marquis (just driven on the Founders Tour ion Mobile, AL),

and the 1995 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham are legitimate antiques, and even registered as such with personalized antique plates, we may show them in DPC when and where convenient, in conjunction with continuing to judge, dependent upon health and travel considerations.

 

The 1941 Cadillac is an unrestored original which will likely never place better than 2nd Junior, but is one hell of a driver.

 

Keep me in the "Let's keep'em driving" camp !

Edited April 4, 2022 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[ericmac]

I have never believed that a 400 point grand national winner and a reliable driver needed to be mutually exclusive entities.  I won literally everything a Ford Model T could win and drove it daily in the process.  Yes, I spent a lot of time cleaning it, but thoroughly enjoyed the car and myself in the process. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

Actually, there are very few "perfect" cars.

I like my cars to look excellent, but not to the 

degree that I'll spend thousands of dollars to

pick up a few extra judging points.  When I take

my cars to shows, even Hershey, it's to share them

with others, not to get an award.

 

20 minutes ago, ericmac said:

I won literally everything a Ford Model T could win and drove it daily in the process.  

Eric, you drove a Model T DAILY?  Do you mean

a relaxing evening drive every single day during

the warm seasons;  or do you mean even into town

on errands and to work?  That would be worthy of

a magazine article!

[DrumBob]

1 hour ago, BobinVirginia said:

I’ve noticed a huge difference in opinion about cars. Some folks are all about a perfect show car and others like driving and less perfection.  I personally would take a fun well sorted car of less value than a show queen any day. I’m hoping my opinion is the majority 

I too would rather have a slightly funky old car than a trophy winner any day. As long as it's mechanically sound and relatively free of issues, that would be my choice. 

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, ericmac said:

I have never believed that a 400 point grand national winner and a reliable driver needed to be mutually exclusive entities.  I won literally everything a Ford Model T could win and drove it daily in the process.  Yes, I spent a lot of time cleaning it, but thoroughly enjoyed the car and myself in the process. 

I really like your reply, and reread it several times. The driver types can't help themselves, they over use the line about I drive and enjoy my car. They think they are superior to those of us that also find enjoyment working on the project, or just having it to walk by and look at. I have no burning desire to drive any of my cars. 

Bob

[edinmass]

I takes all kinds of collectors to make the hobby. Personally, if I never drove or serviced a 100 point car again my life would be ten times easier. You can drive and show a 100 point car......all it takes is time and money.......huge amounts of both. Personally, anything between barn find an 90 points is fine for me. I’m much more entertained by making a car dialed in as perfectly as possible. Most of my enjoyment is making the hard to own cars go down the road......the ones people are terrified to own.....no parts, no information, and no club. Like the 29 Stearns Knight sleeve valve eight. Turning it from a underivable smoke machine to a sorted car ready for touring was a fantastic adventure. My 17 White was the same way.........to hell with what it looks like, I AM HAVING FUN! What others think is unimportant to me.......I buy cars for my enjoyment..........at the end of the day I want to be the guy who drives his car the most, and had the most enjoyment out of it by sharing with others. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

I agree with Ed: I'm most entertained when he dials in a car as perfectly as possible. 

[wayne sheldon]

I have often said that I would rather have the worst car on a club tour than have the nicest car sitting in my garage!

Over the years, I have "restored" about a dozen cars for my own use. None of them were anywhere near being a show car. And a few of them, I never finished the restoration as I had hoped to. But most of them, I did enjoy driving both on club activities as well as on my own.

A couple of my "restorations" were fairly nice. A few were not great at all. In fact, I probably qualify to be one of Ed (sometimes in Mass) M's "tractor mechanics"! A fact I actually take a bit of pride in. But I know what corners to cut, and which ones not to. And every antique car I have worked on left me in better shape than it was in when I got it. Several of them probably would not have been restored by anyone else, given their extremely poor condition when I started working on them. A few I was told were beyond being restored when I got them. I used to like to tell people that some of those cars "sure drove nice on the recent club tour!" I hope to be able to say that again soon about my 1915 T runabout. I like fixing original stuff that other people cannot repair or use.

 

Whether it is original, or been redone, I like the upholstery to be fairly nice. I don't really want something that is falling apart inside.

I don't need really nice paint. In fact, several of the cars I most enjoyed had terrible paintwork. I do want my car to look decent enough that I can park it next to the finest car on almost any tour I attend, and I won't feel ashamed of it. One of the model T boat-tail roadsters I restored, I parked next to a good friends very nice 1927 Rolls Royce on a club picnic. They looked great together, and a few people said so.

 

To me? The "perfect car" is one that is nice enough (from twenty feet away) to look good next to the best car around, but have enough flaws that I can set a picnic basket on the front fender and not worry about adding another scratch.

[Littlestown Mike]

The ages-old discussion.

I am happy that there is room for both of the extremes as well as the vast middle ground in this hobby and especially among the AACA members.  Wayne's  last comment, "To me? The "perfect car" is one that is nice enough (from twenty feet away) to look good next to the best car around, but have enough flaws that I can set a picnic basket on the front fender and not worry about adding another scratch."  pretty well sums it up for me.

I appreciate the automobiles that are purely objects of Art--never to be driven or sullied--but that is not my world. Marmons ( for example) were great cars, but not representative of the cars that most people drove back in the day.  I can appreciate their fine engineering and craftsmanship, but a Model T or Chevy, or Dodge were what most people drove.  Showing and driving--and giving rides so that younger people can experience them--is a great thing.  I have never crank-started a T or an A--it is an experience I would love to have.  Of course you have to know how to and the legal liability probably makes it not something that owners can do, but I'd like to see a way to offer that experience to younger people.

[avgwarhawk]

I prefer a driver. It's where I find my escape time.  A perfect restoration makes me worry about every potential knick, scratch, ding or dent.  However, bringing a car to award winning potential and winning such an award must be gratifying. If one can afford the time and money to do both more power to them. 

[Avanti Bill]

I have a few of both classes of cars and I enjoy them both but in different ways.  My "perfect" cars, if there is such a thing, I love to show because most are unusual and I think the public loves to see a car in that condition especially if it is something they have never seen before or has some interesting  engineering elements.  I also drive my show cars but with much more care and concern of what it takes to get a car into the "show car" category.   As someone pointed out the last 10 points are normally very expensive and in some cases impossible to find.  But seeking perfection is one element of the hobby that keeps me going and as I have matured in the hobby I have realized that you can drive these cars and still stay in the top tier.  My wife and I like to do the tours associated with most of the concour events we attend.  Last fall we took our Avanti to the Audrain in Newport RI.  The tour was over 60 miles including getting to the starting point and we had to leave the hotel at 4:30 in the morning but it was magnificent.  My wife is not a morning person, this may be the only sunrise she has experienced having been to bed the night before, but she was glad she came.  All along the entire route the town turned out to see and cheer the cars on, some before sunrise.  Thousands of people were along the route which made me really glad I took a car that rarely gets driven out for people to enjoy.  There were cars of all levels but most were highly restored and some worth multiple millions.   One of Jay Leno's favorite sayings is that "he loves to take a number one car and drive it down to a number three", most of us can't afford to do that but it is the sentiment that we all embrace.  

 

I enjoy my drivers as much as the show cars, certainly they are relaxing to drive and more fun.  I try to have them correct in every way but they are in a state where if my grandkids drip ice cream on the seat it isn't a big deal.  In many ways the drivers attract as much attention as the show cars but to a different audience which I think is a good thing.  

 

This hoby has something for everyone, showing, driving judging, you don't even need to own a car just to have a passion for them.

[Dan Cluley]

I am continually impressed with the projects I see here, but realistically do not have the budget or patience for a "perfect" old car.

 

I have a 1965 Chrysler that probably would have been a parts car if it wasn't a convertible.  After 20 years, the interior is a lot nicer, the exterior isn't much worse, and I've driven it about 75,000 miles.  Sometimes good enough is good enough. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Each car is unique in my mind.  A select few are indeed better suited for top tier.  If it weren't for those devoted to perfection we wouldn't have best of the best at top tier shows or marque events.  I enjoy seeing NCRS top flight Corvette (a for hour plus going over by judges at the final step), or fine point model "A"s even if I don't own one.

Definately in the driver camp but I appreciate those cars and they do add to the hobby imho.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[John348]

I have both and it is two different things and hard to play both games at the same time. I think it is easier for owners of earlier cars to do so because there are not as many hidden and 'nooks and crannies' to clean and touch up after extended use. I have cars that I have taken to the highest levels in multiple organizations, but that is a commitment but I also have a very nice driver if I prefer to take for a drive. 

The commitment involved with a top tier car involves a lot, the first thing that comes to mind is transportation of the vehicle to those events is major cost that must be factored in. I myself am not a big touring guy and I commend those who are.  I live a portion of the year in the suburbs of NYC and I don't even like driving my 2500 GMC in the area let alone one of my prize possession's.  

Edited April 3, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Kind of funny how the "driver" group sort of looks down their noses at the "perfect" group yet the "perfect" group is fine with the drivers.

Of course anyone can have a "driver", a 400 point award winner not so much.

Just an observation.............Bob

 

[58L-Y8]

"Prefect" cars become hanger queens because, once the state of 'perfection' has been achieved at great expense, any use might degrade that perfection.  In effect, the perfect car becomes a four-wheeled porcelain figurine: too fragile and precious to use for its original function.    The maybe presentable or somewhat scarred but function driver-condition is much easier to live with and enjoy on a daily basis.

[Gunsmoke]

In life, all the choices we make are influenced by a wide range of factors that differ broadly among us. With respect to property, things like pride of ownership, financial capacity, how-to knowledge, work ethic, taste, influence from friends, peer pressure, keeping up with the Joneses, envy, early influence from parents, experience, and opportunity, all gel to form how any individual might approach a topic like this. With so many different factors (and there are likely others such as age, gender, physical health...) little wonder there would be a great variety of answers to what may have been initially considered a straight forward question. The same question could be asked about houses, yards, clothes, and any other property we select. We are the product of our upbringing, our surroundings, our opportunities, our best traits (and in some cases our worst) and we should all recognize and respect these aspects as people's choices are made. We are often too quick to pass judgement on choices people make about "their cars". Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

BTW, while it is Sunday morning, this is not intended as a sermon, I am an Athiest if anyone was wondering.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

35 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Kind of funny how the "driver" group sort of looks down their noses at the "perfect" group yet the "perfect" group is fine with the drivers.

Of course anyone can have a "driver", a 400 point award winner not so much.

Just an observation.............Bob

 

LOL. That is funny right there.  I have felt the "look down on" was the other way.  Perceptions. 

 My motto is to each his own.   Sorta like the signature line about the box of crayons .  

 

  Think I will drive mine today.

 

  Ben

[Bhigdog]

The driver class sniffs at the show cars as "trailer queens" and their used cars as having "patina".

The perfect class calls their cars "art" and the drivers "used cars".

I have 3 trailer queens and 2 used cars.

I enjoy them all..........Bob

[60FlatTop]

In 1983 I had to travel to Keewnee, IL for working to do a progress inspection of 4 boilers Kodak company was having build the boiler plant. Four of us stayed in Moline, the closest authorized motel location. One evening while the others were taking in the motel bar excitement I took our rental car and found my way to the row of seedy car lots. Walking under the lights and looking at the cars was a peaceful way to spend time away from home, still do it. I was 35 years old at the time and had owned a lot of collector cars in my life, as well as a few unfinished projects. Usually a nicely detailed chassis and not much body work done. There are still a lot of people doing that. And the work is usually precise.

 

That particular night a black 1976-78 full sized Mercury stood out in the crowd. It started me thinking. I have always been impressed with the appearance and value of a well maintained 10-15 year old car. I related that type of car to my unfinished attempts at perfection. Right on the spot I decided that my goal for the future would be a car in that well maintained 10 year old car condition. And it has been. That has been my measure for nearly 40 years now. Achievable and affordable. I have really enjoyed my cars a lot. They run good and they look good.

 

Cost is a big consideration. My old cars are funded with old car hobby money. Right now 1970's cars are getting to be 50 years old. Up to 50, if you pick a quality car, you can get good performance. After 50 the major expenses come on; transmission rebuilt, engine overhaul, chassis, and paint work. Stuff that can hide from the inexperienced buyer. A lot of cars have become a flat surface in a garage due to that. Enough to be a real consideration.

[SC38dls]

I can not possibly afford a lug nut on a 100 point PB or Amelia type car and if I could I’m sure my better half could find a “better” way to spend it. I have managed to squeeze enough spare cash out of our budget to allow me to enjoy having cars I’ve enjoyed over our 50+ years together. I’ve put over 8000 miles on the 38 in the six year’s we’ve had it. It’s a show car to me and my preferred driver. It’s perfect even when it is in need of a little attention. I can’t say I’ve ever “sorted” a car perfectly as I have no where near the mechanical ability as someone as talented as Ed or a few hundred other people on this forum. Spending time in the garage keeping it “perfect” is a pleasure not a chore.  The fact I got to drive around with two young blonds (no male chauvinist pig attitude intended) in the back seat and my wife doesn’t mind is just a bonus. 
It’s been said above - “the best part is I’m having fun” and “sharing it with others”, that is the heart of this hobby no matter if you ‘show’ or ‘daily drive’ YOUR car. Have fun. 
dave s 

Edited April 3, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[philip roitman]

Both. I drive the Gold 4 speed Concours Senior GN car (no such thing as perfect even with this MCACN 1000 out of 1000 point car) occasionally to keep it mechanically sound. I drive/tour with the mostly all original Yellow Sun Coupe  (MCACN 986 points out of 1000) GN & Concours winning car all the time. Cars need to be driven. Don't think I could collect cars without the pleasure of driving them. That is also the reason I have the fun modern cars to drive. Driving cars is my biggest pleasure in life besides my family.

Edited April 3, 2022 by philip roitman (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

Some cars are rare works of art and I’m glad that some people can make them perfect and keep them that way. 
Those are cars I appreciate but couldn’t own due to I’d have an anxiety attack trying to keep them perfect! 
 

Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts on this. It really does sound like there’s  only one correct opinion. That’s, enjoy your car however you prefer it! 
 

 

[John348]

2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Kind of funny how the "driver" group sort of looks down their noses at the "perfect" group yet the "perfect" group is fine with the drivers.

Of course anyone can have a "driver", a 400 point award winner not so much.

Just an observation.............Bob

 

I thought I was the only one who noticed that,

[oldcarfudd]

I have, among other brass-era cars, an entry-level 1912 Buick.  I bought it running, but needing pretty nearly everything.  I paid an excruciatingly excessive amount of money to have it professionally restored.  It won a First Junior at Hershey and a Senior at Carlisle.  I have driven it on many HCCA tours, slowly improving its reliability.

 

One of my pleasures is giving rides, especially to kids.  But this car is a Southern wide-track.  The way Buick built wide-tracks was to use standard width fenders, with extended splash aprons to center the fenders over the more-than-normally distant tires. (Some other manufacturers did it differently.)  That produced a l-o-n-g step from the running board, over the splash apron, to the inside of the car.  Kids can’t make that step; they scramble to climb in and out of the car.  My once-perfect splash aprons now have scuff marks made by a zillion excited kids going for a ride in my neat old car.

 

I wouldn’t have it any other way.
 

[BobinVirginia]

4 minutes ago, oldcarfudd said:

I have, among other brass-era cars, an entry-level 1912 Buick.  I bought it running, but needing pretty nearly everything.  I paid an excruciatingly excessive amount of money to have it professionally restored.  It won a First Junior at Hershey and a Senior at Carlisle.  I have driven it on many HCCA tours, slowly improving its reliability.

 

One of my pleasures is giving rides, especially to kids.  But this car is a Southern wide-track.  The way Buick built wide-tracks was to use standard width fenders, with extended splash aprons to center the fenders over the more-than-normally distant tires. (Some other manufacturers did it differently.)  That produced a l-o-n-g step from the running board, over the splash apron, to the inside of the car.  Kids can’t make that step; they scramble to climb in and out of the car.  My once-perfect splash aprons now have scuff marks made by a zillion excited kids going for a ride in my neat old car.

 

I wouldn’t have it any other way.
 

Thanks for sharing that and the great picture! Sweet car! 

[1937hd45]

Wonder how many people know there were "Southern Track" cars offered, interesting regional option. 

 

Bob 

[Duck Flower]

All of my cars are drivers

 

 

[TTR]

“Perfection”(?) is extremely subjective, but during 4+ decades I’ve been involved with antique/classic/vintage/etc vehicles, I’m yet to encounter/see one qualifying as such.

 

Besides, IMO, any car/truck/etc claimed by someone being too nice to drive/use as it was originally intended is not a real car/truck/etc and any person believing or making such claim is obviously not a real car enthusiast.

[John348]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

“Perfection”(?) is extremely subjective, but during 4+ decades I’ve been involved with antique/classic/vintage/etc vehicles, I’m yet to encounter/see one qualifying as such.

 

Besides, IMO, any car/truck/etc claimed by someone being too nice to drive/use as it was originally intended is not a real car/truck/etc and any person believing or making such claim is obviously not a real car enthusiast.

Have you ever owned a vehicle that reached that level? A vehicle that was restored to the condition as it was delivered to the owner when new? and then maintain it that way to move through the awards systems in all of the organizations?  To accuse someone of not being a true car enthusiast that owns one that goes through the effort, expense, and research to restore a vehicle correct is just not right. I have been doing this 4+ decades myself and never felt it is polite to throw stones at anyone who enjoyed their cars.

Original intended use? How many people bought perfectly running vehicles 30 years ago stuck them in their garage, then tore apart, then put junk all on top them and have no chance of ever getting them on the road? I don't think that is the intended use either but maybe that's how they enjoy their car. At least we share our vehicles with the public at venues where people appreciate them, even some at venues where they charge spectators and the proceeds are donated to charity.   

 

Bob summed it up best.

 

6 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

 

 

7 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Kind of funny how the "driver" group sort of looks down their noses at the "perfect" group yet the "perfect" group is fine with the drivers.

Of course anyone can have a "driver", a 400 point award winner not so much.

Just an observation.............Bob

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

Besides, IMO, any car/truck/etc claimed by someone being too nice to drive/use as it was originally intended is not a real car/truck/etc and any person believing or making such claim is obviously not a real car enthusiast.

My three remaining collector cars are all Grand National and/or National Award winners,  All three were "rescue cars" claimed from certain crushing. I have personally expended many many  thousands of hours and two trips to the ER bringing them as close to the point of perfection as I could. I personally performed ALL the work myself with the exception of actually sewing the upholstery. No detail was too small to escape my attention.

I now find out, because I choose to keep them as undamaged and unworn as possible so that I and others can admire their beauty, and I my accomplishments, I am not a "real car enthusiast"....... EGADS!

(Sounds of slapping myself in the fore head)

I'm going right now,  this very moment, to use one of them as originally intended.

" C'mon dogs. Get in the car. I know it's raining but we're off to the nursery to get a load mulch."..................Bob

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Bob, I can relate to the dogs getting into the car but not for mulch!  I say how often do you get to drive around with two blondes in the back seat and my wife doesn’t mind. Anyone that says a restorer of a vehicle is not a true car guy is just plain ignorant about the hobby and probably many other things. Maybe even narcissistic. If showing YOUR car makes you happy who cares what anyone else thinks. Live free and have fun. 
dave s 

Edited April 3, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[JamesR]

Drivers are all I can afford, but making them as presentable and reliable as my limited budget and meager abilities allow is usually a rewarding and worthwhile endeavor. I really try to avoid cheapskate fixes, but I avoid the high end approach, too. I'll leave the stuff I can't tackle for some more talented or wealthier future owner.

 

I drove my old wagon out around the lightly traveled paved country roads north of town yesterday. It was sunny and mid-60's temp, and boy was that nice. "Happiness on wheels," I call it. Having cars that are too nice to take anxiety free jaunts in the country is something I just couldn't do, but I understand there are people who love perfectly restored cars on beautifully manicured show fields as much as I love drives through the countryside. I'm really happy there are those kind of cars in the world, too.