How many mechanics does it take to change a light bulb?

[Matt Harwood]

One of the DRL (daytime running light) bulbs burned out on my Cadillac CTS. No big deal, I bought a new one and figured I'd pop it in there. Maybe an access panel, maybe an inconvenient reach behind the fender, whatever. Unplug the connector, change the bulb, plug it back in. Hell, I don't even like the DRLs, and my first instinct was to just remove the non-broken bulb so they don't work anymore, but it seems that when they're both out, it triggers a warning light on the dash. Ugh. It appears that I'm stuck with them.

 

Anyway, here's what's involved in changing a light bulb on a Cadillac CTS:

 

      

 

On the plus side, the bulb only cost $2.00. On the negative side, I paid Roman, my mechanic, for three hours' work to replace it.

 

I'm not sure I even have words for how bonkers this is.

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[just me]

Matt

It's fixed and that's all that matters.

 

The measure of accomplishment is the end result. Rather than the effort made 

 

Best

Charley

[SC38dls]

Matt try to change the backup battery in a Mercedes. First you have to find which of the three possible places Mercedes tells you it may be. Finally remove the panel and battery, as you take the battery out it pulls the wire connectors. So far so good. Try to put the connectors on the new battery. Did I mention the opening is very small and the wires very short!  Fat fingers full of arthritis makes it very difficult. I had to get my wife to hook them back up as her hands could fit. Two more inches of wire and it would have been a 10 minute job. 

[Steve9]

 

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

 

 

I'm not sure I even have words for how bonkers this is.

I would call it brutal. Must’ve been a engineering school dropout.

[wayne sheldon]

You think this isn't planned? For a couple decades now automakers only care about the initial buyer. You are not supposed to keep a vehicle long enough to need new bulbs or batteries.

 

A bit over a year ago, my 2001 Ford Expedition's fuel pump failed. The estimate to replace it was about a thousand dollars,and no guarantee they wouldn't run into more serious troubles to cost even more. 

As I often say about replacing the unobtaniam parts for our antique automobiles, get creative. With a fair amount of engineering background, I carefully measured, assessed the structural impacts, and cut a hole in the floor. Turned out, access to the top of the fuel tank where the pump assembly is was right under the middle (three row) seat near the left side of the vehicle. I used a cut-off grinding disc, cut a slightly odd shaped roughly eight inch square hole in the floor (two layers of floor there!). Removal of the fuel pump assembly was then a piece of cake. The fuel filter on the other hand, was another story. Talk about can't get to it from underneath. By the time I got it changed I was wishing I had cut another hole in the floor!

[gossp]

Everything on a CTS is like that.  Worst car I have ever owned. If you have a sun roof just wait until the drains clog. The nail in the coffin for the one I had was when the radiator decided the transmission and engine had interchangeable fluids. 

[padgett]

Have to realize that the CTS is really a German design, Catera Touring Sedan. 2nd generation but a lot of European elements. If your mech did it in three hours, he used the U-tube way that does not require removing the bumper. Sounds like you replaced with the stock bulb. If ever go into mine it'll be a LED

 

Shortly after got mine  replaced the water pump and thermostat. Water pump was on front and about a 10 minute job. Thermostat faced the firewall and I used many wrenches of the same size but different shapes disassembling all of the external pipes.Took several days but not in a hurry.

[28 Chrysler]

I thought the headlights in the  240Zs were hard to replace. Jack up car, remove wheel, remove inner fender, etc.

[PFitz]

If there is a hell for auto designers, it is that they spend eternity fixing the cars they designed.

 

Paul

[capngrog]

For quite some time cars have been designed to enhance efficiency on the assembly line.  This has resulted in fasteners, components etc. being almost inaccessible for maintenance or replacement.  The automotive industry philosophy used to be "designed/planned obsolescence.  The philosophy now seems to be "designed inaccessibility for components, both major and minor".  As vehicles become more sophisticated, they become more complicated, hence; more difficult to diagnose and repair problems. 

The situation is becoming such that independent mechanics will no longer be able to work on these complicated, computerized wonders, and the only recourse for repair will be franchised dealer service departments (billed at $100-$150 dollars per hour).  It is well known that factory-franchised automotive dealerships make relatively little money on the sale of a vehicle, but make their real money in their service departments.

 

Here's an article from Hemmings about how the increasing electrical complexity of modern cars may render them just expensive yard art in the next 15-20 years.

 

The link: 

 

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2020/08/13/the-increasing-complexity-of-electronics-poses-a-challenge-for-future-collectibles?refer=news&utm_source=edaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2020-08-13

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

 

[padgett]

Or to spend enough on tools to be able to work on your own cars at home where you can take all of the time you want. A lot of problems started when manufacturers stopped making service manuals for the public, headlights went over $1k, a tuneup required a computer, and an ignition key had electronics.

[Fleek]

It is not just the high end cars either. On our 08 Dodge Avenger, to my surprise, when I need a new battery, I had to pull the left front wheel off and remove a panel behind it to slide the battery out.

[John_S_in_Penna]

10 hours ago, Steve9 said:

I would call it brutal. Must’ve been a engineering school dropout.

 

Steve, I had exactly the same thought, but you

beat me to writing it!  If something is superbly engineered,

it should be so well thought-out that it is SIMPLE

and RELIABLE.  Rolls-Royces and other complexities

such as Matt describes are just the opposite.

 

There's a lot of money to be made to the manufacturer

today that produces a beautiful car with room for

individuality, that is reliable and simple to repair.

[TAKerry]

I have a buddy that had one of those caddy's, I remember a few years ago he was telling me how much of a PIA it was to change a headlight bulb! I had no idea. He traded on a subaru!!

[Matt Harwood]

The one thing that makes me most frustrated is bad engineering, no matter what it is. The Cadillac has been an otherwise satisfactory car, aside from its remarkable appetite for wheel bearings and the automatic tailgate, for whose inflicted injuries Cadillac is preparing to compensate me more than I spent to buy the car. This was so over-the-top nuts that I could only laugh as Roman sat back there with a pile of parts around him. I understand trying to force your customers to use the dealer for service, but replacing a light bulb? You can even see a nice spot there where they could have installed an access plug on the inner fender where you could pop it out and have access to the back of the headlight. That seems remarkable to me--no engineer, during this car's entire gestation period, ever said, "Hey, how do we get at the light bulbs if they need to be changed?" That seems like a failure in the process, like designing the car and forgetting that customers might have to put gas in it and there's no filler opening.

 

Meh. It's done, it's fine, but when I went back there and saw the front end torn off, I had to take pictures and laugh.

[TerryB]

My son is an automotive design engineer, I’ll be sure to pass your comments on to him😀.  I know he says they have to give priority to reducing assembly line time and complexity.  The good news is he has reduced the complexity of several existing designs to make servicing the assembly much easier.  

[Restorer32]

It was always thus.  Ask anyone who has tried to replace rotted wood in s 1930's car only to discover that all the fasteners are under the sheetmetal or try to replace the water pump on a 1930's Packard,  or ...

.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

45 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

You can even see a nice spot there where they could have installed an access plug on the inner fender where you could pop it out and have access to the back of the headlight

 

Roman made one for you didn't he? And marked where to make the hole for the other side. Like the starter solenoid wiring access hole on my Silverado?

Bernie

[padgett]

Part of the reason SEMA started was to make it easier to add non-factory accessories. In the late 70s GM added the "Radio Accommodation Package" to make an aftermarket radio easier,before it was common to order a care with the cheapest AM radio possible so that the wiring and antenna were there. Back then to add stereo rear speakers, One had to be mounted in the rear defroster hole. Not round but what the hay.

[Marty Roth]

2 hours ago, Fleek said:

It is not just the high end cars either. On our 08 Dodge Avenger, to my surprise, when I need a new battery, I had to pull the left front wheel off and remove a panel behind it to slide the battery out.

 

It was the same on our late lamented 2005 Chrysler Sebring convertible which was T-Boned on the Interstate 3 years ago

[46 woodie]

I don't know if he is "pulling my leg" but a friend of mine that works in a high end (Mercedes, BMW, etc) body shop told me that after he replaces some headlights, the car needs to go back to the dealership because the headlights need to be "reprogramed".

[Marty Roth]

We had to change a headlight bulb on my son's 2007 Yukon.

 

It involved taking loose the entire front fascia and popping out the plastic retainers which hold it to the inner wheel wells - with out breaking either one - (not really a bumper any more?),

then removing the plastic grille, and then figuring out that there are no longer any reasonable horizontal adjustments - only vertical (or did I get that backward. 

I just replaced the entire headlight assemblies in my '02 Suburban, my grandson's '01 Tahoe, and my daughter's '04 Tahoe ---

3 vehicles, 6 light assemblies, plus the fog light assemblies on the '01 -

and the entire group took less time than for my daughter to fix lunch - Maybe 25 minutes ???

 

These are the vehicles where the headlight assembly is held in place by a pair of pins extending downward to lock the plastic backing to the steel portion of the radiator header support!

 

To be fair, I did have to go back after dark to double check the aim on the units,

but adjustments were minimal,

and including measuring height of the markings in the lights,

checking 25 feet back from the wall,

determining centerline and side-to-side distances,

the aiming took less than 10 minutes per vehicle !!

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[John Kelso]

And Harry said to Frank as they sat down to lunch after a difficult time at the design table, "We gotim this time, they'll never figure it out"

[DAVES89]

4 hours ago, Fleek said:

It is not just the high end cars either. On our 08 Dodge Avenger, to my surprise, when I need a new battery, I had to pull the left front wheel off and remove a panel behind it to slide the battery out.

My wife's Chrysler 300 was the same way...

[TAKerry]

1 hour ago, 46 woodie said:

I don't know if he is "pulling my leg" but a friend of mine that works in a high end (Mercedes, BMW, etc) body shop told me that after he replaces some headlights, the car needs to go back to the dealership because the headlights need to be "reprogramed".

Dont know if thats true or not, but it certainly would not surprise me. 

[padgett]

" headlights need to be "reprogramed"" possibly a moving headlight like my CTS but would require an intelligent module to report a change. For toys I prefer pre-OBD-II.

 

Did need to add a jumper to the MOST line in a Merc when I removed the glove box mounted CD player to free up some space.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

Burned out taillight on a friend’s Lincoln MKX cost him over $20,000 to rectify. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

The dealer’s quote to replace the bulb was $700... friend was so annoyed he drove the Lincoln to another-brand dealer and traded it in on a new SUV. 

[1912Staver]

I know it's no Cadillac { in both a good way and a bad way } , but my 2010 Hyundai Accent is a very well engineered car.  260,000 KM { Canada remember } almost no trouble, 1 crank position sensor changed on warranty. Regular servicing is dead easy, even the cam belt change was a very simple process. 

Still the original clutch, { long highway commute for most of its life }. A couple of sets of tires and brake pads and that's about it. It's only a Hyundai but hands down the most reliable transport box I have ever owned. I do all the maintenance myself even when it was under warranty,  I am a journeyman auto

mechanic, although I haven't worked in the trade since the 90's , the dealer just told me to keep records of service work up to date  and keep parts bills for reference . 

 North American manufactures could learn a few things from those crafty Korean's. I hear the fancier Hyundai's have more problems. Makes sense , more do dads , more things to go wrong. K.I.S.S. usually wins over the long haul.

 

Greg

[Bhigdog]

7 hours ago, Fleek said:

It is not just the high end cars either. On our 08 Dodge Avenger, to my surprise, when I need a new battery, I had to pull the left front wheel off and remove a panel behind it to slide the battery out.

BITCH! BITCH! BITCH!....................

My 2019 Grand Cherokee, I'm guessing, has a battery, I haven't a clue where it could be. There are no grease fittings, Oil change up to 10K. The car will tell you when depending on how you drive it. I don't even open the hood between changes. It uses no oil. The filter is on top of the engine. About the only thing that needs lube is maybe the door hinges. I haven't checked. Plugs are 100 K miles. There are no points. Brake pads are a snap. Etc etc etc. The car is virtually maintenance free. 

Now break out your 50's shop manual and see what's required EVERY 1000 miles.

I think they are truly modern marvels and we are just spoiled............Bob

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[trini]

I am 84 years old. I retired 20 years ago as a truck/tractor mechanic. I retired just when   the electronic controls stuff was moving in as fuel management in diesel powered tractors.  I thought good riddance. But my 1995 Cherokee was starting to break down  in hot weather. The auxiliary fan would fail to kick in. I was also getting tired of driving a manual gearbox. I bought a 2017 Colorado V 6. When I look under the bonnet I could not believe my eyes.   There is nothing I can do except to add windshield  washer fluid and brake fluid. The message on the dash tells me when I need an oil change. I have 5 years warranty for the electronics but I fear if something goes wrong after that what will be the cost of repairs. When  I am not  around  my children will be left to deal with it.    

[TerryB]

38 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

BITCH! BITCH! BITCH!....................

My 2019 Grand Cherokee, I'm guessing, has a battery, I haven't a clue where it could be. There are no grease fittings, Oil change up to 10K. The car will tell you when depending on how you drive it. I don't even open the hood between changes. It uses no oil. The filter is on top of the engine. About the only thing that needs lube is maybe the door hinges. I haven't checked. Plugs are 100 K miles. There are no points. Brake pads are a snap. Etc etc etc. The car is virtually maintenance free. 

Now break out your 50's shop manual and see what's required EVERY 1000 miles.

I think they are truly modern marvels and we are just spoiled............Bob

 

There would be a shortage of trained mechanics if we ever went back to cars that actually require a detailed and involved service schedule.  

[Morgansdad]

I work in the auto industry. Sorry but  purposes that should be reasonably understood, I won't say what we build/produce.  The parts we make are often changed out by the dealership after only 20-25 thousand miles. Mind you, most everyone reading this should be fully capable to change out these parts yourself but, they are designed in such a way after replacing on the automobile, they HAVE to be recalibrated by the dealer. Just another way to get your money. Saying this, anyone could change out our parts yourself and they would work fine except without the recalibration, you will always have a check light on . The cars made today are not much different that the cars we have in our garages except our cars don't have the computer. And, yet everyone has to have the next best thing.  I've always said the computer was the death of the automobile. Getting back to the original post, I replaced the DRL on my Cadillac SRX by going through the inner fender wells and then removing a small piece of plastic  behind the light fixture.

[padgett]

" they HAVE to be recalibrated by the dealer" well not always. For later GM cars I have pc-based Tech2Win software ($120). That plus a $40/year subscription & can do the recalibration at home. So far have not needed the subscription. One of my hobbies is scan tools, my earliest is from 1982 and have a couple of OTC-2000s with 93  Pathfinder 3 in 1 cassettes and lotsa cables for pre-OBCD-II GM, Ford, and Chrysler. For modern stuff I use Torque Pro, and Autel DiagLink with Benz, GM, and Chrysler modules, and the aforementioned Tech2Win. Finally many many service documents, both paper and .pdf,  at least one factory service and parts manual for each of my cars.

 

So far I find my CTS coupe more annoying than complex though some things (like the thermostat) would be a lot easier if transverse (FWD) than Longitudinal (RWD). Many things seem more after thought than designed & a mix or American and German elements.

 

BTW the battery in my Grand Cherokee (best tow car I've had but is a '12 with a Mercedes chassis and Pentastar V6, have heard of a lot off issues with '14-on) is under the passenger seat and an exercise to reach.

[Guest]

In '03 was working for Cadillac when one of the first CTS's was delivered, to much ballyhoo, for inspection here in California.

The whole staff was invited out front for the unveiling. The entire sales crew of course, as well as everyone in the service department, parts department, styling department, secretaries, managers, and customers too, etc., etc. ...you get the picture. A BIG deal.

Cadillac needed a win after the huge failure of the Catera, not only to garner a decent market share after an enormous but doomed advertising campaign (remember, the car that zigs? Even Cindy Crawford couldn't save it) but just to reclaim the loss in customer confidence. Known as almost constant leakers and eaters of expensive timing belts, plus a myriad of other endless quality issues, the Cateras were considered so bad that most Cadillac dealerships refused to take them on trade in as a used car and sent them directly to the wholesalers to dump at public auctions. 

So, back to the unveiling of the Catera's replacement, the all new Cadillac CTS!

Well, they pull the cover off the newly named CTS and tell everyone to just dig in. The new angular body was sharp looking and a big improvement over the Catera's styling. The sales team is grinning, the service department (mechanics) is a little more hands on, opening, closing, bouncing, switching, starting, everything.

Then one of the mechanics says "Wait a minute, this is the same crappy engine as the Catera!"  Well he instantly had everyone's attention. The suits who brought the car blustered and, red faced, explained it was NOT the same but, after going head to head with several of the guys who are in these engines up to their elbows every day, it comes to light that the CTS's 3.2 LA3 engine is really a revamped version of the Catera's 3.0 liter L81. That's when things just started to crumble... at this moment another mechanic points under the new CTS and says "Look, it's already leaking!" ....and it was. Coolant was dripping on the ground.

This was the perfect cue for a young guy from the styling department who shouts out "Hey, CTS, the Cadillac That Sucks!" and instantly the acronym sticks as everyone bursts into hysterical laughter.

....everyone that is except the suits and the management. If looks could kill the comedian from the styling dept. would have done about 9 days in the electric chair followed up by 4 or 5 lethal injections before being hung and shot by a firing squad.

Since that day I have never been able to get that acronym out of my head. Every time I see a CTS emblem (even on later platforms) I can't help thinking of that moment and that name. 

Now all of you will too.

(sincere apologies to Matt)

Edited August 14, 2020 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[Morgansdad]

Padgett, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant the replaced parts would have to be recalibrated. Not just by the dealer but as you know, most mechanics don't have the kind of software/tool to do this. (At least not in the area I'm from). I was just saying the parts weren't just plug and play type of parts. Cars are way too sophisticated people always seem to want the vehicle with everything.

[John348]

7 minutes ago, Morgansdad said:

Padgett, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant the replaced parts would have to be recalibrated. Not just by the dealer but as you know, most mechanics don't have the kind of software/tool to do this. (At least not in the area I'm from). I was just saying the parts weren't just plug and play type of parts. Cars are way too sophisticated people always seem to want the vehicle with everything.

 

The newer CTS's require a special computer to replace the brake pads. Electric over hydraulic and no manual service mode. None of the private shops that I know bought the tool, feeling that it would pay for itself. The Caddy dealer said around $1000- $1200 to just change the pads..... 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Chris Bamford said:

Burned out taillight on a friend’s Lincoln MKX cost him over $20,000 to rectify. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

The dealer’s quote to replace the bulb was $700... friend was so annoyed he drove the Lincoln to another-brand dealer and traded it in on a new SUV. 

 

I usually do what your friend does,  I trade them in before I have to deal with expensive problems. After the quote I was given for the brakes, I might be doing it again. 

[SC38dls]

My daughter had a Volvo XC90. The drivers headlight burned out. I opened the hood thinking this was going to take hours. The out two long slide pins that hold the assembly in. Pulled both up the assembly came out the wires were long enough to to make it easy. Ten minutes and it was done. Volvo engineers get my vote as being good. 
Every design guy should have to fix the part he designed in the field before it goes into full production. Life would be simpler. 
dave s 

[AHa]

I have found in my work environment that engineers have a tendency to play "One upmanship." In other words, who can make the project the most complicated. It is like dueling engineers. During the 60's it seems as if the engineers dueled over who could make the car the most simple and the badge of honor was given to the simplest design but slowly over time the focus changed to who could design the most complicated car and the more complicated the design, the better the engineer. Funny how things change. While my grandfather admired a simple design, people today admire a complicated design. The complication speaks of quality. Or so people think.

[padgett]

That is a funny story. Have had a few cars/rvs with timing belts but did not have for long. The "LLT" 3.6 has timing chains, would not have bought otherwise.

 

Fortunately I can replace pads on my '11 CTS without a computer, can reset any code set if the sensor starts scraping. Do think there as was "high point" between about '09 and '13 when owners could still work on cars but then the fears of bad guys reprogramming on the fly (e.g. Fast and Furious 6) made the mfrs consider hardening things (back in the 70s my employer decided to sell a fighter overseas. The task was to make the computer undumpable to prevent reverse engineering. Problem was that the computer had to be able to run so encryption was out. Amazing what happens if you switch some address lines and install random kill locations. Then don't document anything. Was a lot simpler with bit slice processors and microcoding. Lasagnia code is better than spaghetti code.

 

Am having to reverse engineer the code in my '89 Allante since evidently no one has for the one year '89 which is "different". 27C256 is easy to dump and have blank proms. Just a matter of walking the code (did about a decade ago for $5B (3800) ECMs. Is only a matter of doing it and have lotsa time. Really just want to lower the fan turn on temps and make the cruise A/F ratio a little more aggressive. No Big.

 

Always had a personal goal of making software as compact (elegant) as possible. Maxterms and minterms are great for estimating how many instructions are needed to accomplish a task, can do even more by playing with stacks. Amazing what you can accomplish in a PC with just the 512 byte boot sector. Cars are easy but tedious.

 

Back in the day a DG Eclipse was able to address 32k of memory but you could swap in any number of overlays. Could swap in a complete flight control or engine control system using multiple overlays. Then the 1750A and 8086 came along able to address a MB. Still needed overlays but not as many. Obsolete technology now that GB are common.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

On 8/13/2020 at 11:30 PM, 28 Chrysler said:

I thought the headlights in the  240Zs were hard to replace. Jack up car, remove wheel, remove inner fender, etc.

   Must have been a defective Z-Car.   For 20 year I drove them everyday, 240Z, 280Z, 280ZX, 300ZX, never changed a headlight.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)