gregleck Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 A few months ago, I found the same year, make, model, and color car I drove way back when in college - a 1962 Oldsmobile Dynamic 88 I had fond memories of that car (and all of it's associated events) so when I found this car going up for auction, well, I just had to have it. How often do second chances come along in life? The auctioneer chanted "100% original!" during the sale, and "100% original" was written on the windshield during the auction. I was not present but watched online. Turns out, the transmission failed catastrophically after only a few hundred miles. That was when I was told the transmission was not original, but from a 1963 Olds. I also found two different numbers on the engine, which because they do not match, I am presuming at least part of the engine, or the entire engine, is not original. I realize it may not have been obvious to non-Oldsmobile experts that the transmission was not original, but they should have picked up on the mismatched engine numbers, and the fact that an aftermarket, magnetic pickup was used to work the speedometer (because the 1963 transmission speedometer port works from the front wheel, and is not compatible with a 1962 model. Yes, I know - caveat emptor. But they shouldn't be making a claim which will drive up bidding if it is not true. Do I have any recourse? Opinions? I am sure a lot of people will be replying, been there, done that. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Maybe it is just the windshield that they are referring to.. Sorry for what you have encountered, maybe one day some things will be talked about in a larger forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) Twice I have started a topic asking if any forum members have had experiences buying or selling at an auction. Judging from the lack of responses, I don't think anyone has anything but speculation. You might be the first to actually experience an auction. Bernie Edited November 13, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Every auction house I've ever looked at has had legal disclaimers out the wahzoo. Read the fine print and you'll see that they are responsible for exactly nothing. The cars are always described "as represented by the seller". I'll bet that whatever bill of sale you signed has similar fine print. You're S.O.L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 you will spend more on a lawyer then what you will get in return. my opinion. lesson learned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) Auction houses are typically representing cars using what they're told by a consignor. While some of the bigger auction houses with prestigious catalogs like to make it seem like they're vetting the cars and doing all kinds of checking and fixing to make sure they're great cars, they don't. None of them do. They pass the cars along as-is and their disclaimers clearly state that they're only telling you what the consignor told them. And, quite honestly, you should always expect an auction car to be at least 20% crappier than you expected--I've had cars come to me from high-end auction houses and I'm consistently shocked by how crummy many of them are, despite the lovely photos and glowing description (which rarely says anything but what color it is and the history of the company that built it). And seriously, if you think about it, expecting an auction house to have intimate knowledge of every car they sell is a little excessive. When Mecum is moving 3500 cars in a weekend and the cars show up a day or two before the event, do you think a Mecum staff member even looked at the car beyond making sure the title matches the VIN? Everything they say, including what the guys on TV talk about, they get from the guy who consigned the car at the auction. They don't have experts on staff that would have spotted the speedometer modification and I bet most auction houses don't even know how to determine "matching numbers" on anything but a Corvette or GTO where the engine numbers are right on top of the engine. They're sure as hell not going to go digging around on an Oldsmobile where it's likely that there are no numbers to be verified and which the owner has already told them is "100% original." The manpower required for that kind of stuff would be astronomical. Yes, they want you to THINK that's what they're doing, but they're not and if you think about it, there's just no way they possibly could. Now, do you have any recourse through the auction house? Maybe. Good ones will want to preserve their reputation and hopefully a relationship with you and may work as an intermediary between the consignor and you to get issues resolved. But you will have to identify and clearly articulate your damages and there may have to be intent to deceive. Does the fact that the transmission has been replaced materially affect the value of a 1962 Oldsmobile Dynamic 88? Meh. Does numbers-matching have any effect on value of something like that (although I bet 1962 Oldsmobiles were not and cannot be "matching numbers" in the traditional sense)? Again, possibly but not likely. The only way that you might have recourse on is the fact that you would not have purchased the car knowing these things, but again, it will come down to damages--how badly hurt are you financially? Can they buy you off? Are you looking for a few bucks towards repairs? Or do you want a full refund and for the car to go away. You should have answers to these questions before you go in asking for solutions. A few bucks will likely be possible, but getting them to refund your money and take the car back will be a fight. Call the auction company and explain your problems and see what they say. If they tell you tough luck, caveat emptor, you signed a purchase agreement, well, go home and lick your wounds because they're right, there's nothing you can do. But if they express a willingness to help, be prepared with a reasonable course of action that they could take to make you a satisfied customer (and no, don't ask them to bankroll a restoration because you're pissed off and think they lied to you). Be reasonable and I bet they're reasonable, too. Have reasonable expectations about what they could have known and what they could have done prior to the sale. Realistically evaluate your true damages--the original transmission could have blown up just as easily as the replacement, no? If it hadn't blown up, would you even know it had been replaced or would you be happy with the car? You've got two separate issues--decide which one matters most to you. I'm sorry you're disappointed, it sucks. Caveat Emptor applies at an auction perhaps more than anyplace else. Don't assume the auction company is doing the homework for you; always verify things yourself. I send all my turds to auction where they can be sold anonymously, without a lift, and without a test drive. I know I'm not alone... Edited November 13, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFranklin Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 I bet the speedometer read 22,000 miles because they didn't have the hundred thousand mile reel like nowadays. I bet it had 122,000, hence 2 transmission failures in its many miles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 I have bought things at auctions including cars. Auctioneers are the biggest thieves at large, worse than used car salesmen. If you take their word for anything you are crazy. What do they know about cars, nothing. What do they know about the car they sold you, they saw it for 30 seconds before the sale if that. All this is so notorious I don't think any judge would hold them to anything they said, and that is if you have a video of him making promises plus pictures of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 If I had evidence that the only 22,000 miles from new claim was false i would send a complaint to the state attorney general's office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Same Caveat applies to buying a USED anything on the Internet or sight unseen.. I was trying to buy a car 3000 miles away and had another fine antique owner check out before I flew our to see it. He looked and told me it was a #4 with a #3 paint job and seat covers at a #1 price. I passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) Remember there are places like Kansas where some lobbyists got the law changed about 25 years ago so it's totally legal to roll back the odometer. I read this in a newspaper back then, and hope it's been changed. It would still be a federal violation to "clock" the mileage. Edited November 13, 2016 by jeff_a (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capngrog Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 I'm not sure what 100% original means when it comes to collector cars. An original survivor car that is 54 years old can be expected to have had some components replaced over its life time. Some of these components could have been major items such as transmissions, rear ends, and, yes, even the engine. Unless a car is touted as having matching numbers, don't expect it to have matching numbers. If a phrase such as - 100% original - is within quotation marks, I have found that it is open to interpretation by many folks. Over the years, I have attended several high end collector car auctions, but have never purchased a car from one. There are several reasons, but the most important (in my mind) is that the prospective buyer does not get the chance to thoroughly inspect the car nor does he get the chance to test drive it. Another reason is that auction prices, with the various fees tacked on, are usually significantly higher than the hammer price. In my opinion, to get a "good deal" at an auction, the hammer price has to be firmly within the definition of a bargain. With that said, there are apparently thousands of car collectors who are happy with their auction purchases. Just my opinion, Grog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim65 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Sympathise with you , had a couple of experiences myself , one about 20 years ago , one more recently first time bought 'good mechanically car' only to find engine problem resold next day lost $500, more recently via telephone bought apartment at bargain price only to be told 30 minutes later as hammer price was 4K below reserve , sold to another buyer at reserve. Disgusting as never given chance to match or bid higher. Not pointing the finger at auctioneers as have bought many items at auction and been happy , but in life I find you are bound to get stitched up from time to time , just watch out as I do now and check as much as possible before you buy. cheers pilgrim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 About 15 years ago a major auction house was selling a high end classic chassis with a reported very snazzy coachbuilt body. All the club guys for that marque knew the car was cobbled together in the 60s. I kind of doubt the auction house knew anything because one of the biggest collectors on the planet paid stupid money for the car. The next day somebody whispered in his ear and the whole thing quietly unwound but he was pissed. The next time that car was for sale it was represented as "in the style of" the particular coachbuilder. The auction house looked stupid and a big buyer of theirs was mad. If an auction house had to validate every detail of every car they would never make a dime. Some of the houses have very very smart research staff that can turn up period or historical information on a high end car. But they can't afford to be doing that on a 10 or 50 or even 100k car. The math doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 I bought a new Ford PU in 1996. At 900 miles it had the engine replaced by Ford under warranty for a main bearing knock. It is possible the car in question might have had an engine replacement for similar reasons. As for the trans, who knows. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 (edited) I have a great deal of experience with auctions in another area of collecting. It is my preferred way of doing business but, when asked by someone who doesn't know the ropes, I ALWAYS say that if you have to rely on the auctioneer's description, you shouldn't be buying at auction. That said, a reputable house will often pull an item that can be proven to be badly misrepresented. In the antiques world, most will refund the purchase price if the item is proven to be a fake. For all the reasons given above, it is completely unrealistic to expect an auction house to have the expertise to assess anything as complicated as an automobile with the precision of an enthusiast. Where cars are concerned, "100% original" is in the same category as "classic" — buzz words that have absolutely no objective meaning. Edited November 14, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBulldogMiller55Buick Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 100% original? original tires? Original belts? original hoses? 100% original is a lie in any case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 There was a very large auction company named Kruse. They started the model of gigantic auctions with whole weekends of events built around them in Auburn, Indiana. Then they branched out all over the country. They were in and out of business about 3 times, between the father and a couple sons. they were the pattern for a lot of other companies. When things got tough they wouldn't deliver the cars after they got the money or wouldn't pay the owners after they gave up the cars. Sometimes both ends were getting screwed. Misrepresenting cars was the least of what they did. They were sued for millions of dollars and they gave the industry a bad name.Somehow they always got people to come back for more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 11 hours ago, TerryB said: I bought a new Ford PU in 1996. At 900 miles it had the engine replaced by Ford under warranty for a main bearing knock. It is possible the car in question might have had an engine replacement for similar reasons. As for the trans, who knows. Terry That's still NOT "100% original" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 A local transmission shop owner, who has been in business for many years and has experience with collector cars, told me that Oldsmobile's transmissions in the early 1960's were poor. I don't know the specific years, but that might be a reason why your 1962 transmission was replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I can tell you that some auction houses do go the extra mile in checking out some cars. They have used our research center and I have had several calls on cars asking if I knew anything about their provenance. I also know one auction house that immediately unwound a deal after finding out the consignor misrepresented the car. Still, in the end a buyer needs to do his homework to the best of his ability in checking out a potential purchase. Just like any business, there are some great people to deal with and maybe some less so. There are thousands of cars sold at auction, we sold one this year, and most buyers and sellers seem happy from what I hear. There are always the exceptions but in general people seem please otherwise these companies would fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Walling Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 All one has to do is watch a few episodes of cars being "restored" on TV for sale at the next auction, and you can pretty much expect what to see at an auction. One thing to always remember, the seller almost always knows the car is worth less than the buyer thinks. (or he wouldn't be selling it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 So, what is the problem and what type of resolution is desired? Do you want to dispose of the car? Do you think you paid too much and want money back? Did other people point out issues and ridicule you? If the lawyer asked "Specifically, what are you looking for now?" What would you tell him? Bernie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 14 hours ago, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said: 100% original? original tires? Original belts? original hoses? 100% original is a lie in any case All those parts are considered "wear parts" and obviously are expected to have been replaced during normal use. Major drivetrain components (Trans for instance) are expected to have been serviced, but not replaced. Common sense is applied here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I do some part time work for a dealer of classics and hot rods. Part of that is ferrying cars to and from auctions on occasion. It would seem to me that he is dumping his dogs and buying some other guys dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Wahlberg Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 I have attended many auto auctions and seen some questionable cars offered. If interested in a specific vehicle, have an expert in that marque look it over before placing a bid. Better yet, are auctions where the seller is available to answer your questions and/or has documentation available. I bought a car at auction eleven years ago and it had some electrical issues. Fortunately, the seller lived not far from me and we were members of the same club. Before I took possession he gave me the name of a well known local shop and told me to take it to them to have the problems fixed and to have them bill him. Thus, it worked out well for me. Had the car gone to someone from out of state and they had it shipped to them, they probably would have been stuck with a $600 bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 On 11/13/2016 at 9:24 PM, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said: 100% original? original tires? Original belts? original hoses? 100% original is a lie in any case Some even lie when they say, " restored to original". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Skyking said: Some even lie when they say, " restored to original". The term "restored" is an entirely different topic. Seems it's become a general term for anything that has been worked on rather than it's proper use. The 1934 Terraplane with a crate motor is NOT "restored" it's custom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pomeroy41144 Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 (edited) The phrase "100% Original" means different things to different people. There is a guy advertising a totally restored 1937 Ford on a related forum as "an original barn find" , "...a time capsule" and "100% original". The car, which has lived in a climate controlled garage for the last "38 years", has a lot of mods and non 1937 parts, yet he claims it is a "100% original...time capsule...original barn find". People misuse these words all the time. I see these types of ads all the time: 1936 Ford Coupe. Totally Restored. Original Henry steel; chopped three inches; Chevy 350/350; mustang II; disc brakes; air conditioning; power seats; power locks; radials and custom wheels; tilt wheel; trunk converted to rumble seat. Just finished restoration. Over $70,000 in receipts. Must sell. Yeah, "Totally restored." "Original Henry steel," but the rest of it is all non Ford parts. I guess some folks need to watch their language. . . . Edited November 15, 2016 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 Imprecise language is a problem in this hobby. I don't know how to fix it but there are a great many more hobbyists than there are people who know how to describe cars properly. I'm frankly shocked by the number of guys who can be car enthusiasts who aren't familiar with the basic terms we use to describe cars. "Original" "Classic" "Restored" are all words that are misused and can lead to misunderstandings. My wife is the registrar for a big car show our local CCCA region puts together and in order to get more Full Classics (note the capital C) on the show field, the registration flyer says "No registration fee for CCCA Full Classics." Sure enough, the guys with '57 Chevys and Model As and Mustangs all started registering for the "free" class because, after all, weren't their cars classic? What a nightmare to sort out and call them back to tell them their registrations were rejected and they would have to re-register and send cash. I think it will hurt participation in other classes simply because of a simple misuse of a word. As a dealer, you will never, EVER see me use the words "perfect" "flawless" or anything else that implies perfection. Some smartass will surely buy a car, find a flaw, and demand something for nothing. No thanks. I am VERY precise with my language and I say what I mean. "Original" to me means that it is substantially as the factory built it, with materials and parts that were installed at the factory. I'm not going to assume that 100% original means belts and hoses and tires, but I am going to assume paint, upholstery, trim, and all the major hardware underneath. "Restored" or "Restored to original" means it was restored to AACA specifications, i.e. no modifications. It is as the factory built it, but some, many, or all of the parts have been reconditioned, replaced, or repaired. "Correct" also means that it is as the factory did it, either restored or otherwise. Not modified. "Modified" means modified. "Except" always means modified, too, as in, "100% original except Chevy crate motor." Sorry, no going back, your car is modified no matter how stock the rest of it is (I am reminded of the joke about McTavish the Scottish stonemason, but I won't relay it here). Finally, if someone makes a claim like "100% original," you should look at the car yourself and make the determination as to how true that is. If you're spending money, it should be what you want, but you're also obligated to verify that you're buying what you think you're buying. I try to be honest when I represent cars, but I'm always relieved when someone comes to look at it with their own two eyes. That way there are no misunderstandings later because we aren't speaking the same language. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ YEA! What Matt said! Proper terminology is key to conveying specific information. Improper use of words can and will indicate a lot about the person using those words. Proper spelling is also key. If you spell and speak poorly, people will form a negative view of you and will question your intelligence. I know one guy who is a friend of mine, but he spells at a 4th grade or less level. He laughs it off but all those around him try to let him know that is not funny at all, very sad in fact. It affects his business but refuses to use the tools at hand to correct the issue. Proper use of language is important in many ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 35 minutes ago, Amphicar BUYER said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ YEA! What Matt said! X2! My hot button is "numbers matching". This is SUPPOSED to mean that the VIN derivative stamps on major components (like the block and trans case) MATCH the VIN of the car. Many people simply take this to mean "correct". There are thousands of correct castings with correct date codes for a particular car, but only ONE numbers-matching block. I am especially amused when I see an ad for a "numbers matching" car that was built before VIN derivative stamps were used. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagerodshop Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 As binding as the weather forecast! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I like, it ran good when parked. Is there a known cut off for this phrase? Maybe the length of time it takes gas to go bad in the tank. After sitting in a field for 15 years, ran good when parked does not mean much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capngrog Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Xander Wildeisen said: I like, it ran good when parked. Is there a known cut off for this phrase? Maybe the length of time it takes gas to go bad in the tank. After sitting in a field for 15 years, ran good when parked does not mean much. In my opinion, "ran good when parked", means nothing, other than being the subject of many jokes. It either runs at the time of the transaction or it doesn't! And don't forget that a car that "runs" is not the same as a car that "drives". Cheerios, Grog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike36 Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I worked at an Oldsmobile- Buick - Cad. dealer in 1966. This engine should run much farther than 22,000 Miles. I'm betting it has 122,000 miles. As for the transmission, they were no good when new. We had from 1 to 3 of them in our service dept. CONSTANTLY. That was the weak link in these cars by a wide margin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Oy, the terminology.........antique and classic are the grand examples but indeed restored, original, and numbers matching are all over the map now too. I guess we all better be prepared to do our homework and expect that the other guy may not be communicating with the same terms you are, Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I am pretty sure that all cars that are for sale "used to run". And quite possibly "ran well". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 The best one by far is "rust free". I think that everyone over the years has misunderstood this statement. The term rust free means, if you buy this car. You get the rust for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Decades ago, a well-known old car dealer once said to a friend of mine as he prepared to drive off in a newly purchased old car: "Did I tell you about my guarantee?" "No?" my friend said. "I guarantee something will go wrong on this car, probably while you're driving home." I don't know that I want to say something like that out loud, but it's quite true and maybe even defuses the situation a bit. Maybe I'll try it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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