Toyota overtakes GM as the bestselling automaker in the US.

[Professor]

All,

 

The Wall Street Journal today reported that Toyota overtook GM as the bestselling automaker in the US.  GM has been on top since 1931 according to the article.

 

Talk about a long run coming to an end.  This said, I have owned eight new Toyotas in my life (zero used) and three new GM products and five used GM products (four of which were Corvairs). Other than the Corvairs, the Toyota products (three Lexus counted as Toyota) were all better than the Pontiac, Buick, and Chevrolet GM products I purchased.  I bought all of my new GM products in the early 1980s - early 1990s… it was a really bad time for GM.  I swore off new GM cars and never looked back.

 

Even though I am unlikely to ever buy a new American GM product again, I still buy new Chrysler Jeep products (Stellantis?  I hate that name) and am very happy with them.  Funny how I  got burned by something decades ago and I still have never forgiven GM.  Maybe it was because money was tight back then and I expected, but did not receive, quality for my hard earned dollars.

 

RIP as number one GM.

 

Joe

Edited January 6, 2022 by ... and Professor (see edit history)

[TerryB]

I don’t think Toyota will stay in 1st place for long.  GM got hit with the computer chip shortage worse than Toyota did. Toyota makes some well performing products that keeps the competition on its toes.  What it lacks in the US is heritage and style.  I’ve purchased Japanese motorcycles but never a car or truck from a Japanese manufacturer.

[Guest]

[John348]

1 hour ago, ... and Professor said:

 Funny how I  got burned by something decades ago and I still have never forgiven GM.  Maybe it was because money was tight back then and I expected, but did not receive, quality for my hard earned dollars.

 

RIP as number one GM.

 

Joe

 

Joe,

What is funny Joe, I remember hearing Americans who fought in WWII who would rather walk then buy a Japanese or German car. It had an impact on me. I never owned anything but a GM vehicle, (new or used) and when I do buy a new American vehicle every five years I make sure it is on the list of UAW approved vehicles. It is always great to meet people rooting for the foreign team, the team that tried to beat us

If Toyota's make such great cars where are vintage ones?  

Edited January 6, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[8E45E]

11 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Joe,

What is funny Joe, I remember hearing Americans who fought in WWII who would rather walk then buy a Japanese or German car. It had an impact on me. I never owned anything but a GM vehicle, and when I buy new one every five years make sure it is on the list UAW approved vehicles. It is always great to meet people rooting for the foreign team. 

If Toyota's are such great cars where are vintage ones?  

In museums.

 

Keep in mind, Toyota and GM went on a few joint ventures in the 1980's and '90's with the NUMMI plant in California where Teslas are made now.

 

Craig

 

[37_Roadmaster_C]

I was a Mopar and then GM person, but the best single rig I have ever owned is my Chevrolet LUV pickup. That truck was made by Isuzu Japan and badged Chevrolet.  My current vehicles are both older GMCs and they are fine, but in no way the quality of equivalent Toyotas. I am all for American made, but my money is earned and the current American auto makers are very far from earning my money. For my $$$ Toyota will be my next purchase.

[9F94M567042]

I personally would not be caught dead in a Toyota. My 1973 stripped down AMC Gremlin was superior to any Toyota I have had the displeasure of being associated with. Yes I said it. 

[Jim Skelly]

My Dad, Grandfather, and an uncle all retired from GM.  Dad and two uncles (and multiple cousins) fought in WWII.  I will never buy a Japanese or German car, and I don't care how good they are.  I have owned 11 cars - all GM - and I still own 5 of them.  I recently gave my brother Dad's last car.  Both my Dad and brother have also only owned GM cars.  I will continue to support GM.    

[Marty Roth]

3 minutes ago, Jim Skelly said:

 Dad and two uncles (and multiple cousins) fought in WWII. 

I will never buy a Japanese or German car, and I don't care how good they are.  --- (Or are sss"supposed" to be - and I don't purchase HYPE)

I have owned 11 cars - all GM - and I still own 5 of them.   ---     I will continue to support GM.    

Thank you, Jim,

You echo my sentiments-

and my Dad wold roll over in his grave if he thought someone had parked a Japanese or German car in his driveway - much less that a family member would actually spend hard-earned American dollars in a way that hurt American, and Union workers

[Jim Skelly]

The other uncle who fought in WWII worked at Ford and only bought Ford products.

[nick8086]

I loved my Toyota . Maybe had 8 of them..

 

They were cheap to own. .

 

I drove a  Park Avenue car and Cadillac Seville.

 

Cheap also..

 

Just pick up a 1988 Chev 1500 pickup today..

 

My wife only new car was a Toyota Highlander. He has owned 7 years..  She loves it.. SUV.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

Well. when we have a graph like this, what should one expect?

 

[avgwarhawk]

I swore off GM after the purchase of a new 88 Monte Carlo.  Just a horrible car straight off the new car lot. 

[8E45E]

At least for taxicabs that are passenger cars, and not minivans, Toyota must take the lead, at least here.   All I see are Camrys and Prius's on the roads for the most part now.  Gone are the Crown Victorias and Caprices of long ago.

 

Craig

[63RedBrier]

My "new" vehicle fleet includes a 2001 Dodge Cummins with almost 60k miles (built in St Louis!), a 2005 Suburban we bought new (now has 140k miles), and a 2015 Holden SS (built in Australia by GM!).  My teenaged daughter drives a Jeep Cherokee with 215k miles!  I hope you never see a Honda or Toyota parked in my driveway or garage... 

[Gunsmoke]

The AACA Membership includes people from across the world, Europe, Asia, Canada, and South America to name a few, people who love the hobby and their cars, regardless of where or when they were built, and regardless of the sometimes checkered history of the manufacturer, the country, or their individual leaders (company or country). Topics like this one in my humble opinion serve no helpful purpose. While the news item is note-worthy, posting it here just provides a platform/soapbox for venting, posturing, overly patriotic grandstanding, ignorant or uninformed comment and largely unfair and inappropriate "brand bashing". I urge moderators to remove it or move it out of the general discussion forum. Thank You.

[rocketraider]

3 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

I swore off GM after the purchase of a new 88 Monte Carlo.  Just a horrible car straight off the new car lot. 

A 1997 Olds Bravada cinched it for me. Just a complete POS from day one. The fact that the Cad-Olds dealer closed 7 months after I bought it, meaning I had to rely on the local "GM" dealer to service all the warranty claims, didn't help. Rotten vehicle, even more rotten dealer, made owning that Bravada an ordeal.

 

I've owned one Toyota. 1978 Celica GT, my first new car. It was a decent enough car but at 6'3" I soon found out it wasn't meant for anyone over 5'9".

 

Several uncles fought in the Second War. Oddly, the one who fought in the Pacific Theater and survived Guadalcanal started buying Toyotas in the 70s and stuck with them till his 2016 death.

 

The one who helped liberate Ohrdruf drove a series of Volkswagens.

 

Neither would ever talk about the War, except Edd said he never forgot the smell of Ohrdruf.

 

Heavy stuff for a pair of farmboys who had never been more than 20 miles from home when they enlisted.

[Larry Schramm]

5 hours ago, prewarnut said:

Well. when we have a graph like this, what should one expect?

 

 

You need to go out about 10 more years. With the ascent of the financial people running GM starting with Roger Smith in 1980, GM has been on a down hill trajectory ever since.  With  Dan Ammann from Wall Street successfully pushing to get rid of many of the GM footprint around the world, think Opel, Vauxhaul, Holden, etc.. GM has just got weaker.  The argument was that the footprint was not making money.  All that points to is poor management not able to comprehend and run the business successfully. Just IMO, but the data appears to support my position.

[1912Staver]

Lot's of collectable Toyota's. Toyota 2000 GT's sell for huge money. Any of the Supra's. Most of the Celica's. Early Crown's. Even early Corolla's, esp. SR 5's. All the 70's survivors and even many from the 1980's are going up in value. Once they go FWD interest drops off rapidly. The young guy's in my area are always on the hunt for old Toyota's. Toyota , often in partnership with Yamaha , made some great engines. Toyota's production based Formula Atlantic { first step in professional open wheel racing } racing engine of the 1980's even got the upper hand on normally dominent Cosworth. 18 RG's are in very high demand. The JDM version of the engine found in many of the 1970's pick ups and Celica's. 

But not very many people collecting Camry's.

Edited January 6, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I have only owned a couple of imported cars in my life and they didn't last very long.

My kids are now in their 30s and 40s and 50s, so the history referred to is out of their realm.

They see the world economy differently than most of our and our father's generation, unfortunately that translates to Toyota.

They all started out with older Mopars when I had a say, but now they make their own decisions and purchases.

At least I can't (wont) work on them, but alas, they don't need much as the Japanese products seem to be pretty good quality.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I think the topic is relevant because while well known, the rise and struggles of an automaker are what makes automotive history.

I generally agree with Larry's assessment but have owned GMs recently, pretty pleased overall - bottom line is you would have to make a real POS today to not have vastly better built cars than say 25 years ago let alone 40 years or more.  But, the 25 year period of say 73 to 98 really hurt the domestics and GM in particular.  When you lose customers on quality, you lose the generation not just the current model cycle.

I owned one Toyota in my life, a pick up that was reliable, cheap and simple around 1988.  Beat driving a TR-6 in New England winter so it served a purpose for a couple years and was gone.  Personally I think they are great cars for non car people, which is likely why they appeal to a lot of folks today.  Are they better than GM, not imho but many believe they are, proving the impact of the period outlined above on GM.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

 overly patriotic grandstanding,

If you lived in America, I may have been offended by this remark, but knowing you live in Canada, I realize our views of patriotism differ greatly.

[ply33]

4 minutes ago, JACK M said:

. . . They all started out with older Mopars when I had a say, but now they make their own decisions and purchases.

At least I can't (wont) work on them, but alas, they don't need much as the Japanese products seem to be pretty good quality.

I grew up on Chrysler products and that is what I bought new for my first couple of new cars. But the 1991 Jeep Cherokee ended that. There were design and manufacturing flaws that Chrysler refused to acknowledge or fix. The big one for me was the hydraulic clutch which failed numerous times and was never covered under warranty as clutch parts were excluded from the coverage. At the same time they were telling me that the failure was not due to how I was using or abusing the clutch that it was simply a defective part. Having the paint on all the top surfaces fail in a couple of years (not covered because my car was “high mileage” as if mileage has anything to do with the paint on the roof of a car). Or having various knobs come loose. Or having the headliner come detached. Or . . .

 

And while I had that Jeep I met my soon to be wife who happened to have a Toyota Corolla a bit older than my Jeep. Everything stayed together on that Toyota, it never developed rattles and had almost zero mechanical issues and low maintenance costs. It has been 30 years since then and the Toyota vehicles I have had since, while not perfect, have been reliable and held together quite well.

[1912Staver]

Canadians are quite patriotic in our own way. But yes , we have a different way of looking at it and particularly how we publicly display patriotism. It might not be so true in modern Canada , but when I was growing up in the 1960's there was still a lot of Canadian culture that was closely aligned with Great Britain { Quebec excepted }. So general understatement was quite normal.

[JACK M]

13 minutes ago, ply33 said:

They all started out with older Mopars

Slant six stuff outlasts just about everything.

I still drive a 64 daily.

 

[8E45E]

33 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

I think the topic is relevant because while well known, the rise and struggles of an automaker are what makes automotive history.

I generally agree with Larry's assessment but have owned GMs recently, pretty pleased overall - bottom line is you would have to make a real POS today to not have vastly better built cars than say 25 years ago let alone 40 years or more.  But, the 25 year period of say 73 to 98 really hurt the domestics and GM in particular.  When you lose customers on quality, you lose the generation not just the current model cycle.

I owned one Toyota in my life, a pick up that was reliable, cheap and simple around 1988.  Beat driving a TR-6 in New England winter so it served a purpose for a couple years and was gone.  Personally I think they are great cars for non car people, which is likely why they appeal to a lot of folks today.  Are they better than GM, not imho but many believe they are, proving the impact of the period outlined above on GM.

In 2005, when GM was losing gobs of money and plummeting market share, I suggested each GM executive should have submitted a 1000 word essay on why BMC/British Leyland/MG-Rover failed.  In 1964, BMC alone (before merging with Jaguar, Rover, and Triumph-Leyland) held 40% of the domestic UK market, and a very strong presence in North America, Australia, and other markets around the globe.  When they declared 'insolvency' (a British finacier's term for 'bankrupt') in early 2005, they held a paltry .02% of their UK market with almost invisible exposure in foreign markets where they were sold.  And this was after BMW's huge investment in bring the Rover and MG sedan lines up to date.

 

Craig

[SC38dls]

If you never will own a Japanese, German or Italian car then you also should throw Chrysler products in that group as they have seen several foreign owners.  If you live in KY around Lexington/Georgetown area the Toyota plant is responsible for a lot of jobs within the plant and more in the surrounding area. This plant provides over 8 times the number of coal mining jobs left in all of KY.

If no one buys the cars/trucks from them what happens to the economy.  SC has a Mercedes plant doing basically the same thing what happens there or any other town with a foreign plated car mfg.?  Don't get me wrong I would love to see GM get back to being the dominate auto builder it once was but to do that they have to build a better product than their competitors at a better price.  The only way to do that is pay a better wage to the workers and designers than the competitor does. Then market it properly. Don't just live off of past glory and accomplishments. 

My daily driver is an orphan 1938 Studebaker. Poor management killed the brand, a very good brand at the time. A Studebaker 289 cubic inch engine could out run a Ford 289 with no problem.  Our family car is a 2011 Mercedes Benz E350 with 150,000 miles on it. I still get 23 MPG on it. I purchased it in 2013 with 11,000 on it when it came off a lease for less than a 2 year old Chevelle on the same lot and a lot less than any new GM car. The Mercedes still had a longer warranty on it than the Chevelle. I have only changed the plugs once and done the oil changes every 5,000 miles the way I have done for years on previous cars. Knock on wood it stays that way. 

dave s 

 

PS - I forgot I have done the brakes twice for pads and once for rotors. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

  I have tried to be a GM fan just because I buy American whenever possible but the build quality of the couple I've owed was so poor I don't bother to even look at a GM product anymore. Chrysler/Jeep has been my brand of choice for the last 20+ years and so far I have not been disappointed. My '04 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins is the best vehicle I've ever owned by far. I have friends that are dyed in the wool GM fans and won't even look at anything else. One has a 2018 model that has been back to the dealer for repairs more in the last three years than my Dodge has been in 18 years, mostly electrical gremlins. Another mechanic friend (Korean war vet) for many years would never think of owning anything but a Chevy. He got so fed up with issues with his Monte Carlo he finally bought a Honda and loves it. All manufacturers produce some duds and lemons from time to time but I've seen a lot of dissatisfied GM owners switch to other brands and never look back. People are only going to put up with poor quality for so long before they make a change.

Edited January 6, 2022 by pkhammer
mispelling (see edit history)

[ply33]

1 hour ago, JACK M said:

Slant six stuff outlasts just about everything.

I still drive a 64 daily.

 

I had a '63 D200, which looked very much the same as yours, with a 318 V8 and manual transmission as my daily driver for a while and then for years after as a parts and material hauler. Not much failed on it but I sold it when I moved and couldn’t take everything with me. It was a good solid vehicle.

[TerryB]

One of my Eagle Scout young men keeps in touch with me quite often.  On his last visit he said he was having some concerns about the reliability of his 2004 Honda car.  He had a brake caliper lock up and the clutch slave cylinder fail all in the same month.  I asked him how many miles on his car? His response-215,000. He’s not sure if he should be looking for another car given this one’s recent repairs.  I just smiled and remembered when 50k miles was the time for reliability worries.

[leon bee]

You know, I abandoned the whole AACA forum a while back because of all the political BS. Just now, on a whim I came over to check it out. This is the first thread I see.

[hidden_hunter]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Canadians are quite patriotic in our own way. But yes , we have a different way of looking at it and particularly how we publicly display patriotism. It might not be so true in modern Canada , but when I was growing up in the 1960's there was still a lot of Canadian culture that was closely aligned with Great Britain { Quebec excepted }. So general understatement was quite normal.

I assume Canada is similar to Australia where it's generally not that popular to be outwardly displaying your patriotism (that and we have a lot of people that take it for granted) 

 

Australian patriotism went out the window for our domestically manfactured vehicles for the general public after repeated hand outs following boneheaded decision after boneheaded decision from GM

[Fossil]

After the tax payers had to bail GM out I kind of lost faith in their upper management. Same with Chrysler. Now I'm driving a Lincoln Nautilus and the transmission imploded at 21,000 miles. Everything was towed and repaired at no cost to me but I'm unsure the vehicle can be trusted for the long haul. 

It hasn't been that long ago that Toyota was recalling vehicles because of throttle issues and at first they were claiming there was no problem as I remember. 

To be honest I don't know where I would look for a new vehicle next? 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, leon bee said:

You know, I abandoned the whole AACA forum a while back because of all the political BS. Just now, on a whim I came over to check it out. This is the first thread I see.

Hey, Leon, you old Arky old fart, just have to roll with the punches.  That is what I do.

 

Ben

[Marty Roth]

1 minute ago, Fossil said:

After the tax payers had to bail GM out I kind of lost faith in their upper management. Same with Chrysler. Now I'm driving a Lincoln Nautilus and the transmission imploded at 21,000 miles. Everything was towed and repaired at no cost to me but I'm unsure the vehicle can be trusted for the long haul. 

It hasn't been that long ago that Toyota was recalling vehicles because of throttle issues and at first they were claiming there was no problem as I remember. 

To be honest I don't know where I would look for a new vehicle next? 

My next "new" vehicle will be yet another well-proven "Pre-Owned" vehicle, one which could likely exceed 200-300,000 miles, and be easily capable of trailering a minimum of 12,000 Lb.

Of our more current vehicles, the '02 Suburban and '06 Avalanche, both 2500-Series with 8.1L driveline, each are approaching 190,xxx miles, and the '00 Diesel Excursion 7.3L will approach 290,xxx miles before too long. The Excursion did get a replacement transmission, and turbocharger following misuse

[30DodgePanel]

I'll keep saying it till I'm gone,,,

 

In 1930 there were approx 600 imported vehicles. Between politics, policy, and lies that the IRS and Federal Reserve are needed (my how our founders and lost veterans must be spinning in their graves), it's a wonder we've lasted this long. 

 

I'm all for helping the world community but only after your own country (house) is in order. 

 

Oh and btw, everything in the late 70s into the late 90s was garbage no matter who the manufacturer was. To say Toyota was better than GM in that time frame is to say you like brown dung over puke colored dung. 

 

Ya'll better start supporting your country before you don't have a country to support anymore.

Edited January 6, 2022 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Most people do not know about Toyota and cracked  4 cylinder engine cylinder heads in the 80's early in the cars life.  Both in and out of warranty.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[1932 plymouth pb sedan]

"AUTOMAKER IN THE U.S."

Many people do not understand that Toyota is also made right here in the good old USA. Unfortunately, like all other automakers the quality is going downhill with reliability for long life problem free vehicles. We live in a disposable world and all vehicles being made nowadays are nothing but appliances. Hang on to your old stuff, they ain't making it anymore!

I have a 2008 Tacoma that I purchased new because Toyota had a recall on the frame of my 2000 Tacoma, not wanting to hurt their reputation they purchased the 2000 from me for 150% of full retail value, if I bought another Toyota product, I would get another grand taken off the price of a new Toyota, then if I bought another Tacoma it was another grand off, so basically I got rid of a truck that I did not have much into it and drove out of the dealership owning a new truck for 1300 bucks. Just hit 183,000 miles on the 2008 and love it. 

My wife has a 2019 Camry and I think it's a POS.

 

[kingrudy]

It usually takes only one car that will sour you from any brand. My purchase was a 1985 Chrysler Le Baron. After two years all four power windows failed. That was it for me, will never buy a Chrysler product again. I have purchased Chevy trucks ever since dumping the Chrysler in 1987. My current Silverado was purchased in 2009 and has never caused me a problem. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by kingrudy (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

My newest vehicle that I bought new is a 2019 NISSAN 4.1 DOHC six Frontier 4 dr. pick up. It was designed in La Jolla Ca. The foundry for the engine is in Decherd Tennessee, the truck built in Smyrna Tennessee. The vehicle has more U.S. content than Ford or Chevrolet trucks. 

 What troubles me the most is trouble on the horizon. We are not at war with Japan or Germany anymore. We insisted on building those countries into a democracy and have done so-starting 77years ago! and yet here we have G.M. going off to China (and taking most of its engineering with it) to do business and product/engineering sharing at a time when China is racing full speed ahead at world dominance. What will we do when they go after Taiwan? Our response will be our and the rest of the world's future. This confrontation is coming sooner than you think.

 

 I think we should be focusing somewhere else rather than the distant past. Learn from it (that's why we rebuilt those two countries, we remember what happened after WW1 with Germany when we didn't) but remember there is no future in a memory but there is wisdom. Be prepared. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)