"PROJECT" has now become nearly unaffordable to ever do ?

[Restorer32]

If this were 1960 would the comments be any different ?

[keiser31]

Just now, Restorer32 said:

If this were 1960 would the comments be any different ?

Being a poor boy for most of my life, everything I do on my cars is unaffordable. I keep picking away at them, though. Don't have any idea what I have spent and do not care. I just wanna get my cars done so I can enjoy the rides.

[edinmass]

It’s funny now because that I’m old. The numbers really don’t matter as much to me anymore. What does matter is my limited about of time and ambition. Now 99.5% of the cars I see are simply not worth my time. So now I limit my collecting and work on cars that are interesting.  

Edited November 9, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

41 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

If this were 1960 would the comments be any different ?

Lots more people did their own work,  chrome shops were everywhere and the quality of the work was acceptable at a lower level.   The internet has helped with some parts that were once impossible to find,  but then again,.  many towns of any size had places capable of actually making alot of one might need.   The internet has also driven the prices of some pretty crappy cars up,  because of the exposure.  Much harder to get a good deal to start when everyone things they saw the same car,  sell for stupid money.  That cheaper buy in was nicer because it absorbed the cost of fixing everything that was wrong with them that you found once you opened the can of worms.

 

If you are talking prewar cars in 1960 for example,  lots more cars available per interested party.  More cars around that hadn't gotten destroyed over the next 60+ years and there had to be less people really interested,  just the fact that the population has greatly expanded since then would seem to add more competition for what's left. Even if only 1% of the population likes old cars.  Hard to say as interests change.   Still lots of variables. 

[John Kelso]

Restorer32, when you decide to scrap that Packard give me a call I have a heated indoor salvage yard to keep it in.

[Str8-8-Dave]

Amen to price of restoration becoming unaffordable.  You can put your grand kids through Harvard Law School for the average price of a ground-up restoration... 

[edinmass]

28 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

Amen to price of restoration becoming unaffordable.  You can put your grand kids through Harvard Law School for the average price of a ground-up restoration... 

 

Three times........if you're going to Pebble.

[Dr B]

2 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

If this were 1960 would the comments be any different ?

No. (We all reminisce about how good the "good ole' days were!) Most of us would likely still complain about how expensive things are/were in 1960 (minimum wage was $1.00/hour).

 

Robert

[Jack Bennett]

22 hours ago, JAK said:

I've been restoring cars for over 60 years, not because of the end value but because they spoke to me ever so softly "save me" sometimes I still here those words

Hi JAK………And, the “save me” was not necessarily a cold machine speaking to your brain. But, just maybe it was your brain speaking to your body.

 

[JACK M]

3 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

If this were 1960 would the comments be any different ?

yes...............

[Jack Bennett]

22 hours ago, Talarico8447 said:

It's had to find a car to restore today that's at an affordable price to obtain. Even if you have to drag it out of the mud with a family of Rats living in it people want a fortune for it. 

Hi Talarico8447……….I live in Tacoma, Washington, which is about 38 miles south of Seattle.

I call my hobby “reanimation”, rather than “restoration” because I am more intent on bringing a car back from death, than I am decorating a corpse with a lot of bling.

I bought a 1923 DB Roadster, as a basket case, from an estate sale in Edgewood, Wa. It is about half way between Tacoma and Seattle, or a distance of about 14 miles.

Over the past three years I have spent countless hours of labor, and a amount of money unreachable by a lot of young people today, on the reanimation of the car.

I do this for no reason other than why a person paints a “paint by number” picture or knits a sweater they never intend to wear. It is something to do……period.

Anyway, I have acquired a few other projects which appreciate my time and efforts, and the DB Roadster is little more that a object which holds my garage floor in place, and is nice to look at occasionally.

Over the years I have worked on the Dodge, along with the technical aspects of old car mechanics, I have learned a considerable amount about the gent who was involved in restoration of the Dodge at the time of his death.

I learned that the fellow was an avid car restoration expert, and truly loved the machines he worked on. And he only placed the Dodge restoration on hold to build a custom car for his son to use in his work.

Thanks to the cyber world, I was able to ascertain the the fellow had a grandson, and the grandson was a self professed fan of classic cars.

So, again thanks to the internet I was able to obtain a email address for the grandson, and since the grandfather had shown such a affection for the Dodge, I offered the car to the young (27 years old) man free of charge.

The only stipulation I made was that the young fellow come to my home for a brief period of hands on instruction on the (upside down) shift pattern of the transmission, maintenance of car so far as grease and lube requirements, and safe driving of a car with rear wheel only brakes.

Shortly, after about a week anyway, I received a email from the fellows Mom.

She thanked me for my gracious offer to give the car to her son. She added that he had admired his grandfather, and was very interested in owning the car.

All I needed to do was to do a YouTube video of the car in operation. This was to include my required maintenance steps and shift patterns.

And I should be particularly careful to pay due attention to operation of the car to include stopping it with limited braking capability.

And then I could coordinate a time around the young man’s hectic (he actually would not have time to work on the car) work schedule, to arrange MY dropping off the car in Edgewood. 
Needless to say, I still have the Dodge, and it, as will any of my other projects, either be given away to a young person capable of demonstrating a interest in the hobby, and a desire to sustain the ability to pursue it or donated a a worthy charity.

It has nothing to do with money, but it does have everything to do with ethics and a working desire to invest a bit of one’s self into something other than profit gleaning and approval of others.

Jack

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[TTR]

Here’s my $.02 :

 

As mentioned by others (and me previously in some similar discussions), concept or interpretation of a “project” (car) often has hugely different meaning to most enthusiast, hobbyist or professional restorers.

Same goes for the concept/interpretation of (complete/full) “restoration”.

 

For vast majority, “project” or “restoration” involves spending minimum amount of effort, money & time to make the subject, regardless of its condition, operable or at least to have an appearance it is (operable) while some (a very few) will spend whatever (effort, money & time) to not leave any nut, bolt, rivet, part and component of the subject untouched until it not only appears externally/internally like it was when new, but also to make sure it works exactly like it did when the subject was constructed by its original manufacturer and that includes parts/components/etc not even visible in an assembled vehicle, i.e. inside the doors, seats or other large panels/sections or under the carpets, dash, etc, etc, etc …
Apples and space stations.

 

Just something to remember whenever contemplating any “project” or “restoration” of one:

Vast majority of post-war cars are made of more than hundred thousand bits and pieces and to completely/fully, i.e. properly(?) “restore” all will easily take many thousands of hours of labor along with few boxes full of large denomination $ bills.

And while most pre-war cars are generally made of significantly less (only tens of thousands of ?) bits and pieces, finding good replacements or rebuilding/restoring some of them can still be very much time & money consuming.

 

Lastly, I know many/some here may not appreciate or share my view which I’ve expressed before, but whenever I hear/read someone complaining about any costs or lack of ROIs associated with vintage cars or their restorations (or any other hobby they claim to enjoy) , I can’t think of them being a serious/true hobbyists/enthusiast and believe they might be better off to look for a hobby they can afford without financial burdens or at least stop posting their complaints in public platforms, which can make rest of the world view all us true hobbyists/enthusiasts as just a bunch of whiners.

And mind you, all this ^^ coming from a person who was born into and grew up with nearly nothing, never got any leg up or $$ support from the family or parents, even after having lost all of them by the age of 16 and has since lost just about everything else twice due to circumstances completely out of his own control.
But hey, no whining !

 

[arcticbuicks]

I do not see it as complaining but rather discussing how the hobby is affected or changing

[alsancle]

The next car I make money on will be the first car so it isn't about making a profit.   These things are toys and there is a cost associated with playing with them.  But everyone has a limit to what we can spend on the hobby.   Even the ultra rich guys have budgets.     Costs to restore now is very disproportionate to inflation.    Add in the fact that there are less and less resources to do the work it will naturally make cars with more needs less interesting than cars with less needs.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[mikewest]

Im 65 years old and today I only buy what I can fix in house. I have some great FRIENDS that can do what Im not equiped to do. I still work on cars that may not make sense economically but if its something thats very old (1920s and back) I can add a lot of value  for less money.  My days are over for fixing a 1930s classic. Just too much time and money.. I pick battles I know I can win..  Im doing a 1904 Woods electric  now thats coming along well. 

[Fordy]

6 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

their perceived value

Way too many people get hung up and fixated on exactly that! It is a different and abstract sum for each of us.

Steve

 

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s funny now because that I’m old. The numbers really don’t matter as much to me anymore. What does matter is my limited about of time and ambition. Now 99.5% of the cars I see are simply not worth my time. So now I limit my collecting and work on cars that are interesting.  

I can't remember the last time I saw an interesting car for sale in my area. There are interesting cars around here, but they never seem to show up on the market. Of course if they did my budget would perhaps extend to 25% of the purchase price.

      Ed you are in a rare place, you get paid to be involved in interesting cars.

 Some of us can't even afford cast off's any more.  Retirement with a limited income in a very high cost of living area makes stamp collecting more attractive with each passing year.

 This year has been a disaster , rent on the place I was moving out of , and mortgage payments on the new place. I sold a ton of stuff { actually probably more like 8 - 10 tons } and all it did was make the rent easier to pay. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Hello, my name is Xander, and I am new to the forum. I have just purchased my first classic car. I was told by the seller that is a real deal 1952 Hudson sedan, they raced these if you did not know. Seller also said these cars bring big bucks when finished. It may not look like much now, but the guy I got it from said he knows where some extra parts are. And parts for this are RARE. Was wondering if any of you have some tips I can use fixing this classic up. I watch a lot of car shows, and see that they can be done before the commercial, and with banked value for the fast sale. I am guessing I will only have about 12 grand in it when done. (I all ready have new tires) Also, if you know where some Hudson parts might be, please let me know. I understand if you do not know where any are. This car is rare!!!! 

[Hemi Joel]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s funny now because that I’m old. The numbers really don’t matter as much to me anymore. What does matter is my limited about of time and ambition. Now 99.5% of the cars I see are simply not worth my time. So now I limit my collecting and work on cars that are interesting.  

 

That's a big thing with me as well at my age. 

[Laughing Coyote]

8 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

This car is rare!!!! 

I wouldn't say rare....I would say well done. 

[edinmass]

Xander……I’m going to invest in companies that make tetanus shots for humans……I’ll make a bundle off your car!

[Xander Wildeisen]

20 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Xander……I’m going to invest in companies that make tetanus shots for humans……I’ll make a bundle off your car!

That's real steel we are talking about!!!!

[dl456]

Hello Xander.

Love the post. Also have some 52 Hornet parts. You may need some.

Dennis

[Xander Wildeisen]

Let me know what parts you have, just loaded the car to take to my buddies shop. He has done a car for himself. So he knows what he is doing. And he is used to working on high end stuff like this Hudson!!!!!!!

[Xander Wildeisen]

Picture of my buddies car, Hudson's rule!!!!!!

[mechanician]

Dredged up from the Hudson…

[dl456]

Ran when parked!

[Jack Bennett]

2 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Hello, my name is Xander, and I am new to the forum. I have just purchased my first classic car. I was told by the seller that is a real deal 1952 Hudson sedan, they raced these if you did not know. Seller also said these cars bring big bucks when finished. It may not look like much now, but the guy I got it from said he knows where some extra parts are. And parts for this are RARE. Was wondering if any of you have some tips I can use fixing this classic up. I watch a lot of car shows, and see that they can be done before the commercial, and with banked value for the fast sale. I am guessing I will only have about 12 grand in it when done. (I all ready have new tires) Also, if you know where some Hudson parts might be, please let me know. I understand if you do not know where any are. This car is rare!!!! 

Hello Xander……I know it is a well worn statement, but I had a car similar to your classic Hudson a few weeks ago. I advertised it “as ran when parked” and “totally restorable, missing only a few parts” and “nearly complete, bring a trailer”……and someone did. But it was nearer to midnight than mid day, and, I suppose the addition of “no title-bill of sale only” could have been left off the advertisement without hinting that my car was free for the taking. In fact, the more I look at your car, the more your car looks like mine. The only difference is that yours is a classic Hudson and mine was a classic Mustang.

The only figment of truth to this sort of deal is that you sure get your money’s worth if you are looking for a never ending project😁.

Jack

[Xander Wildeisen]

Well truth being told, my buddy with the shop asked for 12grand up front. Said he had to order parts. Have not heard from him since. Shop he was in, is now empty. Owner of the building has a for lease sign up that states new interior lighting.🤔

[Jack Bennett]

Great news Xander! They just dumped my Mustang in the street in front of my house. I suppose, by the load of other parts they dumped, which were not with the car when they took it, they realized that they were out of line by stealing the car and wanted to show their remorse.

So, since my Mustang, and your Hudson seem to share a common parentage, I feel real comfortable that I can provide a never ending source of, previously extremely rare, restoration parts.

I’d rethink the paltry amount of twelve thousand though because “I know what I have, and won’t favor any low ball offers”.

Jack

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 11/8/2023 at 9:15 PM, Hemi Joel said:

Well, as I see it, if you don't pay attention to your investment vs. return, and your expenses vs. income, you end up broke.   Cars make me happy, but so does not being broke. 

I think this is the best compromise on spending:

 

Spend more than a car is worth, but with your eyes

open and only if you really like the car.  Keep your

over-spending within your realistic budget.  

 

For example, through improvements, you may have

$15,000 into a car worth $10,000.  Thus, you may have

a car that you might not be able to find otherwise

on the market for $10,000.

 

Someone else with a different budget might have

$35,000 in a car worth $25,000;  and so on.

When looking to buy any scarce car, you might have

to accept one less than perfect, and improve it yourself.

[Xander Wildeisen]

If you book a vacation to go fly fishing. Or go to a island retreat, and drop 6-10k when done. You will have a week or two of memories and some pictures. If vintage cars are your thing, and your money is going into a car you want and like. No matter what you spend on it, you will still have it. And if it brings you enjoyment to work on, drive or just look at. Then it is money well spent. An old car can be a great form of therapy. Close the door, tune out the world, and jump in over your head. You will sort everything out and get it done. Probably cheaper than a therapist.

[Dave Henderson]

12 hours ago, Dave Henderson said:

Whoa,  isn't it sometimes the other way around?   Parting out in some instances makes more sense financially.

This was my comment after editing, it was buried by incoming several posts during the moments the edit was being written.  A couple cases in point about "it being the other way around" are; 1) A customized CCCA classic, bastardized using Lincoln, Oldsmobile and Ford parts, then neglected to the point where the engine had frozen and the body, stripped to the bare metal, was left out in the elements to rust all over.  Still restorable, yes, but only as a labor of love and a sure financial disaster.  The decision was made to part it out, and the yield resulting was 10 fold over the "whole car" price.  2)  A Model A Ford incomplete restoration, still needing minor remaining body work, chrome, paint, and "some assembly needed".  As has been discussed about project cars not being as appealing any more, this car would bring more parted out for its many new and restored elements than as a project. 
But more power to anyone taking on a difficult (aren't they all?) restoration knowing it is a labor of love.  

[Hans1965]

The company I am working for is currently laying off 10% of its work force. I know people dear to me that have to go. This is a tough time in my work career. Me and my team - we are not affected, yet. At least not now.

 

My new boss is a pain in the butt. Drives me crazy every second day. 

 

Winter is close and 5 months of bad weather are ahead.

 

I was sitting with one of the ladies of my team in the office and we were just done with a meeting with our big boss, both of us a little annoid again, to say the least, when she said, Hans, yesterday evening I had to buy an expensive hand bag and I replied don't worry, I just bought an expensive basket case of old car.

 

We had a good laugh. Obviously we had to do ourselves something good to chear us up for the time to come. It will not make us broke. 

 

At least not her. I hope. 😁

 

This hobby gives me so much joy. I know so many people that have no hobby and they are suffering from that. I feel blessed that I found something that I have passion for. Money in the bank does not give me goosebumps. My cars do. 

[JustDave]

I don’t think most of us do it for financial gain,we do it because we love doing it,I don’t understand. Paying thousands for golf clubs and spending a Saturday chasing a ball,but those are the same people that don’t understand why we repair old cars,for years I shot skeet two days a week,spent a lot on my shotgun.,shells,and club fees,my father couldn’t understand it,he said shot guns are used for bird hunting period,I believe the e.p.a. Has a lot to do with the cost of restoration,they’ve put just about all chrome shops out of business,I know powder coasters are getting close to perfecting chrome as well as some spray on chrome,when I first got into the body shop business in the seeeventies I was doing side job paint completes for one hundred and thirty dollars,my last year as a body shop owner my material bills where always between seven and ten thousand a month without doing any completes,so between chrome paint and body and upholstery they have to be a labor of love,my motto has always been if we don’t save them who will but I know from a financial standpoint that is probably not a good motto anymore,

[demco32]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:31 AM, JV Puleo said:

I don't either...and don't miss it.

Today, watching TV is essentially paying to see commercials.

Spending time on the hobby is much more relaxing than watching TV

 

[Dandy Dave]

21 hours ago, Rusty Heaps said:

Here we go again with “unprofitable “. Does anyone buy a boat and fishing tackle, or golf clubs and golf cart, or a motor home, etc. with the belief that they will turn a profit on a hobby? I hope not. Otherwise they’re deceiving themselves. Same with the car hobby. I say if you can resurrect an older vehicle that may otherwise not be around for future generations to see, then do so. Like Skvitt I am not concerned about perfection. I just want to enjoy some old cars and perhaps save some for the next generation. They aren’t making any more of most makes. 

Boat = Break Out Another Thousand. 🙃

[Rusty Heaps]

Junkyard rescue, less than $9,000 invested . Perfect? No. A decent piece of history saved? Yes.

[Rusty Heaps]

A cheap, fun driver that elicits many remarks and conversations. This one too was a field car.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Rusty Heaps (see edit history)

[TTR]

20 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

I do not see it as complaining but rather discussing how the hobby is affected or changing

With all due respect, but while my experience doesn’t go as far back as “1960” (like suggested by “Restorer32”), these “discussions” or whining about the changes in or perceived high costs of this hobby have been around annoying & boring true enthusiasts (like me and my lifelong vintage car buddies) for the 45 or so years I’ve been involved with it. 
When we initially got interested & involved with vintage cars (4+ decades ago), my friends & I heard same kind of complaining/whining (mainly from “old guys”) and used to think “perhaps they should get a hobby they can afford and able just enjoy ?”, so in my view, nothing has changed.

 

Again, constantly complaining about the high costs and other perceived negative aspects of this (or any other) hobby, especially in public forums/platforms/etc, will almost certainly affect (deflate?) any interests newer/younger generations may have/show toward it. 
 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)