Thoughts on BJ Scottsdale

[padgett]

Interesting to see how the times are changing. Original cars from the last century were mostly under $100k. Resto-mods and Ford GTs were over. Seems clear that group of well lubricated bidders want modern comforts in an original body.

 

I now have two "modern" cars and the rest are older and am afraid they show it. Even my 88 Reatta coupe is clearly overshadowed by an '11 Coupe (also GM), but then  I have always been more about the driving experience and usability than as a coffee table.

 

Anyone else noticing that the money is going more for non-original than original in 2019 ?

[jeff_a]

I watched about 20 minutes, but that was all I could take. Five cars....all 60s Camaros. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few Chevelles, Corvettes and Mustangs, too.  I looked at the cars that had already sold day 1, 2 & 3 on their roster, and there was more variety. Some of those other cars:

• 1974 Pinto $8,800
• 1974 Eldorado convertible $12,000
• 1959 Thunderbird $18,700
• 1931 Ford Roadster P/U $22,000
• 1992 Camaro $15,000
• 1916 Paige Ardmore Roadster $16,500
• 1933 Reo Flying Cloud Sedan $33,000
• 1956 New Yorker Convertible  $66,000
• 1937 Lincoln Panel Brougham $165,000
• 1937 Cord Sportsman S/C Cabriolet $231,000

Edited January 21, 2019 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Just one slice of the market/industry. Glad to hear it is strong on that side of the car world. I am sure the other sectors of the classic/custom car market are doing well. Quality has a market no matter custom or restored. Different auction houses work best for different types of cars. I recall a Duesenberg just setting a record. It is all out there, the custom/hot rod/street rod side is very large. I have always had original cars, and customs. Why not sit at both tables.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Padgett,

 

Barrett-Jackson and other TV auction "shows" do not advertise them as selling restored or original cars only to satisfy people that belong to the AACA.  That is a given and at least from anything I have noticed.   So with that I see the "shows" as entertainment...nothing more, nothing less.  Change the channel or do a "search" on this forum for previous years on the same subject.  Nothing has changed.

 

Regards,

 

Peter J.

[39BuickEight]

Stock market goes down, as it has over the past several months, car prices go up. Many shocking figures this past week.

 

$125,000 1967 Chevrolet Pickup

$48,000 1989 Regal

$49,000 IROC-Z

 

These were all $20,000 vehicles no too long ago.

[1937hd45]

I had the Barrett Jackson auction on more or less as background noise, never sat and watched for more than 15 minutes at a time. Nothing I'm interested in was selling for what the ex Walmart lot cars of 20 years ago are bringing. The 250-300 thousand Corvettes most likely cost close to that to build. The auction had no effect on what I collect. Bob 

[Pfeil]

I taped the show every day and with about three hours behind the live stream I am able to skip the commercials and breeze through the lot in no time. This really cuts time looking at the box and allows time for doing other things. I believe maybe 1- 1/2 hours at most came out of SEVEN days of coverage. I did see two friends on the block one of which bought what looked like a very nice stock 69 Pontiac GTO convertible, Crystal Turquoise with parchment interior. 30K  

 

I always turn the sound down because the host is competing with the roar of the crowd and the auctioneer.

Also I'm so sick of hearing from the host: I had one of those cars when I was a kid, I raced somebody in one of those, I had a date in the back seat of one of those and had fun. It seems they all had 100 kids worth of experiences each. And for goodness sake stop calling a ST300 a Powerglide! 

[Joe in Canada]

Sorry not interested in a used car auction like the one they had on Sat. evening. I watched for 10 min. and all I seen were used high end cars.

[George Smolinski]

I've heard a few negative stories about the hammer dropped quickly, one was a Hemi Cuda. If you search for Barrett Jackson lawsuit, you'll find lots of interesting reading. I think if Mr. Barnum were alive today, he'd be in on the action.

[Ed Luddy]

First and foremost it's a TV show. A cable "reality" TV show, not too much reality, plenty of BS

[mercer09]

I watched it saturday night. never again..........

 

too many charities and restomods for me. not what Im in to.

[Dynaflash8]

I've watched from time to time in the past....way in the past.....when they had some great cars to auction.  Now they auction street rods and resto-rods for the most part, followed by late model Corvettes, Camero's, Mustangs and the like.  The hobby I know and loved is practically gone.  I went to a local "cruise-in" Saturday night for something to do.  I had the only original car there, except for a couple of 70s vintage cars. I find I've already lived through the great days of old car collecting and enjoyment.  I'm selling off some now.....I bought a super young 28year old  Buick Park Avenue recently for AACA touring.  It has 3200 (yes hundred) miles on it now.  My high school 39 Buick is a fixture in our life.  The '41 Roadmaster will be around for another 5 years unless I need to sell it sooner because of health.  The hobby has moved on to the point now that I do not enjoy any local activity.

[tomcarnut]

1 hour ago, Dynaflash8 said:

I've watched from time to time in the past....way in the past.....when they had some great cars to auction.  Now they auction street rods and resto-rods for the most part, followed by late model Corvettes, Camero's, Mustangs and the like.  The hobby I know and loved is practically gone.  I went to a local "cruise-in" Saturday night for something to do.  I had the only original car there, except for a couple of 70s vintage cars. I find I've already lived through the great days of old car collecting and enjoyment.  I'm selling off some now.....I bought a super young 28year old  Buick Park Avenue recently for AACA touring.  It has 3200 (yes hundred) miles on it now.  My high school 39 Buick is a fixture in our life.  The '41 Roadmaster will be around for another 5 years unless I need to sell it sooner because of health.  The hobby has moved on to the point now that I do not enjoy any local activity.

I do not watch the auctions much either as I like touring better. I try to go to local cruise in's once in while to promote our local club tours. I took my 1912 McLaughlin-Buick to a cars and coffee and parked next to some exotic cars. Told them that real men and women drive brass on tour and crank start their cars.  Lots of fun! I also let all the kids sit in the car and try the bulb horn. 

[Matt Harwood]

My experience as a hobbyist and as a professional in this business suggests that it is a mistake to try to make auctions, particularly the Scottsdale and Monterey auctions, mean something in terms of a big picture. Auctions do not reflect the entirety of the hobby and auction houses cherry-pick vehicles that they think they can sell and those in which they specialize. You don't see Gooding selling modified Corvettes and you don't see Barrett-Jackson selling 1935 Buicks. Yes, one or two oddballs may show up just to fill out the roster, but in general, auction houses specialize but only two auction houses have TV deals.

 

In addition, auction houses have a finite number of slots so they will try to maximize their revenues by consigning more expensive cars, which only makes sense. It doesn't mean the less expensive cars have vanished or all cars are now too expensive, only that a business in business to make a profit is seeking ways to maximize said profit. That means selling more expensive cars. Heck, I'm pretty fed up with dealing with the inexpensive stuff, too--nobody complains louder than the guys in the cheap seats.

 

And finally, it's TV. The producers of the auction broadcasts have been doing it for, what, 15? 20 years? They know what cars attract viewers. I can't tell you how many times I've watched them cut to commercial just as something unusual is staged--they stuck around for yet another red 1967 Corvette, but as soon as it's done and the lovely cream-colored 1939 Mercury convertible is rolling up, it's time to go to a commercial. They know that more viewers understand a Corvette than an ancient Mercury, and they also know that only a fraction of their audience are antique car fans or even car guys, period. A lot of non-hobbyists watch the broadcast and red Corvettes and late-model supercars are things even a non-hobbyist understands.

 

 Those are just a few reasons why evaluating the health of "the market" or the hobby itself just by watching one big auction on TV is a mistake. Don't get discouraged, don't assume that everyone in the hobby wants a resto-mod, and don't assume that prices have gotten crazy and rich people are fools. On an individual level, one car selling for $X is nothing more than a data point that we can use to establish general values. However, looking at the auctions as an aggregate tells us nothing about anything except maybe the extraordinary ability of big auction houses to round up a few thousand cars to sell every few months.

[John_S_in_Penna]

9 hours ago, Dynaflash8 said:

 I went to a local "cruise-in" Saturday night for something to do.  I had the only original car there, except for a couple of 70s vintage cars....

The hobby has moved on to the point now that I do not enjoy any local activity.

 

Earl, it's probably your locality, more than the hobby,

that has given up on older, truly authentic antiques.

Don't you give up!

 

Take a break from Florida's sweltering summers and

revisit your old territory in Maryland.  Or come to some

events in southern Pennsylvania.  If you're in the 

right place, you'll see that antiques are alive and well.

Models from the 1920's blend well with 1940's and 1970's cars.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[ted sweet]

hobby has changed. i see very few pre war cars at the local level

[D Yaros]

BJ = overpriced and overrated!

[28 Chrysler]

BJ's audience and marketing is geared more towards the modified crowd.

The comments like "big block 427 , split window 1963 Corvette  Coupe" kind of bugs me.  All 1963 Vett coupes had the slit window and all 427s were big blocks.

Fully restored 1960 Ford F150  with a LS motor with Vintage Air is a modified truck not a restored truck.

[edinmass]

There is a reason there are five or seven different auction houses, and why basicly two or maybe three get all the "good stuff". I won't go into details, but auction spots are limited as Matt said, and thus, unless a big collection has a few low ball cars, you don't see the bottom feeder and modified cars at the big two houses. They want numbers, eye appeal, and future business, that's why when you see a pre war or large dollar rebodied classic at BJ or one of the other houses, it's usually for a  reason, like a estate manager who doesn't know what they are doing, someone who has burned their relationship with the big two, ect. The last thing you want to do is send you car to an auction that isn't the right venue...........and people do it all the time. Watch the dealers who buy at auctions......thay are all over the cars that are in the "wrong place" which means less bidders, less competition, and lower prices. Ask anyone in the industry who works for one of the auction houses what a "good" or 'great" auction car is.......... it has nothing to do with the year, make, or model. It's numbers, eye appeal, and  condition. When was the last time you saw an unrestored car run through one of the big sales that wasn't 250 or 500k or better. If your looking to buy a car at auction, the first thing you need to ask yourself BEFORE you even look at the car in person is.......why is this car here..........and that usually will give you an indication if it's worth your time. Ed

Edited January 22, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 If your looking to buy a car at auction, the first thing you need to ask yourself BEFORE you even look at the car in person is.......why is this car here..........and that usually will give you an indication if it's worth your time. Ed

 

Bingo! I can't be the only dealer who sends his trash to auction, cars I don't want to put my name on. No test drive, no lift, no warranty, no explanations of history, nothing. Hell, I don't even have to be there to open the hood. Poof! It vanishes and becomes someone else's problem and if that guy's irate about it once he gets it home, he calls the auction house to complain, not me.

 

Do you really think that Barrett-Jackson has 2-3000 amazing cars at every big auction? Or do they have 20 or 30 great cars and a bunch of garden-variety stuff (and worse). Shiny on stage and on TV, but I always expect a car purchased at auction to be 20% worse than advertised. They ALWAYS have problems, usually significant ones that the seller couldn't resolve--hence, the auction route. Many auctions are still a dumping ground.

[Restorer32]

I know a car hustler who sends several cars a year thru auctions, including the Big 3. He only touches up the paint and details the right side of the car since that's the only side auction bidders are likely to see. Many don't know that it's not illegal for the auctioneer to find "phantom" bids up to the reserve price of a vehicle. Many times there is only one real bid on a vehicle, the one that takes it over the reserve. The rest of the bids are figments of the auctioneer's imagination. No Reserve auctions are a better way to establish the real value of vehicles.

[edinmass]

Gotta love the chandelier bids............and the good old by bidding for his cousin or brother in law. Fact of the matter is, most good and great cars have people waiting in line for them long before the owner wants to sell. Basically its a numbers game. Not to be insulting, but any car under 100k is just run of the mill, inventory, sales unit, ect. Before anyone complains, 100k is just about what a new Cadillac SUV or a GMC loaded pick up will cost you now. Have you seen the price of a 25 horsepower John Deere tractor lately? 30-35K! Thus, using supply and demand, you don't get to the "major collector car level" till you hit six figures. Now, that being said, 90 percent of the fun cars I have ever owned and driven for long periods of time were less than 50k. And most of them were in the 25k range.

Edited January 22, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JACK M]

59 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Many don't know that it's not illegal for the auctioneer to find "phantom" bids up to the reserve price of a vehicle. Many times there is only one real bid on a vehicle, the one that takes it over the reserve. The rest of the bids are figments of the auctioneer's imagination. No Reserve auctions are a better way to establish the real value of vehicles

 

My dealer buddy does a lot of auctions and he tells me that they use hand signals for this.

He says look at the auctioneers fingers, If they are open its a fake bid, if they are closed its what he calls 'real money'.

I may have these signals wrong but you get the gist.

[CarNucopia]

My experience is you know there are phantom bids when they move on to the next car quickly. When there are real bidders, the auctioneer takes time to badger them into raising their bid.

[padgett]

Agree it is entertainment and use the DVR. Most of the time I leave on x3 unless something interesting comes up. That way I can also watch before going to bed to put me to sleep.

 

Personally shop for cars mostly on Craigslist or people tell me about something. Do require AC.

[Bob Roller]

What's the difference  between a used car lot and a car show?

I no longer can tell the difference.

[John_S_in_Penna]

"Today's shows have nothing but used cars!"

I know that's sometimes meant that as a joke with a point--

people would much rather see some good earlier cars--

but I think that's what Steve Moskowitz's editorial

was about in this month's Antique Automobile magazine.

 

The 1984 Caprice, the 1979 Cougar, and the 1990 Lexus,

for instance, are parts of automotive history--they're even

30 to 40 years old--and are becoming cherished memories

that some fond collector wants very much to preserve.  Despite

our own preferences, while we're taking our 1910's car to

a show, we should try to appreciate better someone else's favorite.

 

Actually, I bet a brass-era fan would love a ride in a 1978 Lincoln,

far smoother than any car made today and definitely something

whose good-riding qualities should be kept in mind for the

engineers of the future.  Then, too, he'd appreciate how far we've come

since his 1909 Brush or 1912 Packard plied the roads!

Edited January 22, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

11 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Take a break from Florida's sweltering summers and

revisit your old territory in Maryland.  Or come to some

events in southern Pennsylvania.  If you're in the 

right place, you'll see that antiques are alive and well.

Models from the 1920's blend well with 1940's and 1970's cars.

I've thought and thought about moving back to Virginia's Northern Neck, but at 80 I just can't face it.  As for Maryland, it was good for antique car collecting at the time....I don't know about now, but you couldn't drag me back to Maryland kicking and screaming.  Only place I've lived worst than Florida.  Horrible taxes and politics....no thank you.  I had to live there when I worked there

[Dynaflash8]

5 hours ago, Bob Roller said:

What's the difference  between a used car lot and a car show?

I no longer can tell the difference.

Sounds like the AACA I remember terms used in the 1960s to me.  C'mon, time moves on.............but that doesn't include streetrods and restomods.

[padgett]

Hey Florida has no income tax, low property taxes, and politicians who stay bought (and we keep them as far from anything as possible). Was in the 70's today and my top is down. Great time to work on cars.

 

BTW the difference is that on a lot cars are washed. At a show they are detailed. Went to the weekly show on Saturday and got home too late to take anything but the Cad. Fit right in with the Camaros and 'stangs.

Edited January 23, 2019 by padgett (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

7 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Actually, I bet a brass-era fan would love a ride in a 1978 Lincoln

Thanks but I think I will pass. It is not the smooth ride the a/c the  breaking or even the power steering. It is the adventure of sitting up high with the top and windshield folded down. But being able to take the time to look around traveling at 35 miles per hr. Being on some back road and enjoying the countryside that you miss at 65 mph almost sitting on the ground on a freeway.  Being enclosed with all the obstructions that spoils the view when sitting in a used car that I will take an early car any day.

We are having the National Vintage Tour in Kingston this year and I thought about what the Canadian car club did a few years ago. On the Wednesday they had several brass cars come out and took folks with newer cars for a ride to show them what it was like. Since that day three of the guys have gone out and bought pre war cars and come out on our vintage tours.

[46 woodie]

I read an article in an automotive magazine that was all about car auctions. Along with what Jack M states, all the auctioneers do use some type of hand signals. One other thing the article mentioned, is that to get the crowd bidding, the auctioneers also use something called "chandelier" bids. They will start calling out bids and pointing to no one in particular just to pump up the bids. They point to one side of the room and say "I have $1000 and quickly point to the other side and say "I have $2000 and in reality no one has bid. The one thing I will give BJ credit for is their charity work. I hope that the cars and money they donate is on the up and up.

[cahartley]

On 1/22/2019 at 12:45 PM, JACK M said:

 

My dealer buddy does a lot of auctions............................

He says look at the auctioneers fingers, If they are open its a fake bid, if they are closed its what he calls 'real money'.

I may have these signals wrong but you get the gist.

 

This isn't about cars but the principle is the same.

I was at a country farm auction where a nice antique carriage clock came up.

I bid and the auctioneer was calling out more bids.

I watched and looked around to see nobody else bidding.

I stopped the auctioneer then and there and asked "Where is the other bidder?"

I got it at my bid.

Some things you never forget.

[babychadwick]

My perspective might be a little different.  My boy (4 now) LOVES Barret Jackson.  Of course last year in working with someone I was able to clean/fix their car and we went to Barret Jackson to sell the car with the owner.  As he was unable to get there in time we wound up taking it across the auction block which was quite exciting for a 3 year old and left an impression.  Walking around and looking at the cars personally was fun as it was basically a huge car show.  As a bidder or bidders guest which was our status you are allowed everywhere in and out of the cars being auctioned so long as it is not locked.  To a trained eye you can often spot why a car is at auction and I can vouch they look much worse in person.  For example I saw a 60's Lincoln cont convt that should have sold in the high 4's yet wound up over 20k because there were bidders who had not examined it.  As far as being a reality show my portion of the auction profit was just over 9k so it was very real to me.

[John348]

9 hours ago, cahartley said:

 

This isn't about cars but the principle is the same.

I was at a country farm auction where a nice antique carriage clock came up.

I bid and the auctioneer was calling out more bids.

I watched and looked around to see nobody else bidding.

I stopped the auctioneer then and there and asked "Where is the other bidder?"

I got it at my bid.

Some things you never forget.

 

Let us not forget the "phone bidders" or "internet bidders," that have become the ghosts in the back of the room.

 

A good friend of mine took one of his cars ( out of respect for his privacy I rather not say the car in an open forum) to the BJ Mohegan Sun auction this past summer, it sold for about 10K then they told him. He also purchased a car at the auction so he went out back to where the sold cars were. He looked at the car he sold and noticed a label on the windshield as to where the car was to be shipped, it was marked "Scottsdale." The car was listed at this years BJ last week using the same photos and description he submitted with the car, supposedly sold for 6K more. We really don't know if it was sold or went back into their inventory to reappear at another venue. This had happened to another friend of mine as well. 

 

They also seem to set the trend for a feeding frenzy. They will bring across the block something like a K/5 Blazer that supposedly sells for a ridiculous number. Then the talking head (Mike Joy) will go on to tell us how these "K/5 blazers are hot, and that there will be a lot of them here at BJ this year for sale" Who owns those other K/5's? Could it be BJ pumping up the price?. I used to look forward every year to watching it, now I can barely handle it for more then 10 minutes. Maybe now that I have gotten a little more insight to it I realize that it is just entertainment, and a cleaver con game. I also just can't handle Mike Joy's commentary anymore. He is better than the clowns on the Mecum Auctions, but not much. 

 

[Matt Harwood]

21 minutes ago, John348 said:

A good friend of mine took one of his cars ( out of respect for his privacy I rather not say the car in an open forum) to the BJ Mohegan Sun auction this past summer, it sold for about 10K then they told him. He also purchased a car at the auction so he went out back to where the sold cars were. He looked at the car he sold and noticed a label on the windshield as to where the car was to be shipped, it was marked "Scottsdale." The car was listed at this years BJ last week using the same photos and description he submitted with the car, supposedly sold for 6K more. We really don't know if it was sold or went back into their inventory to reappear at another venue. This had happened to another friend of mine as well. 

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised that an auction company (or someone loosely affiliated with them, either another company or a buyer) would buy a car they knew to be under-valued and then sell it at another venue. There's also the possibility that someone bought it and also recognized an opportunity and immediately moved to flip the car without taking possession. Many dealers do this (you'll see many cars that are frequent flyers at auction). Even private individuals will do it, probably more often than we realize.

 

I don't know that it's dishonest, especially if the first seller is satisfied with the result. Leaving money on the table happens all the time and it even happens to me, but if I made my margin, then I'm happy. You can't lose sleep over that. If you have a number in mind and you get it, then that's a win any way you look at it. Whether the next guy is able to make some more money shouldn't really be a factor. I know it kind of feels irritating and like someone's pulling a fast one, but it's really only spotting an opportunity and taking a bit of a risk. I've purchased a few cars for full asking price because they were undervalued and I knew could sell them for more. By paying full asking price, I know the seller will be happy, I can make some money, and it's probably a win-win for everybody. Only one guy got angry when he saw his car on my website with a bigger number on it, but he couldn't quite articulate why he was angry when I asked him what, exactly, the problem was--I'd paid his asking price without haggling. He just felt that I had cheated him somehow. It's not really my job to tell him that his price is too low, is it? (I will do this for consignors, however, which is obviously a different situation.)

 

Think of auctions as playing blacjack in Vegas. The deck is stacked against you but if you're smart and surround yourself with other smart people, you won't get hurt.

[1937hd45]

^^^^^ Thanks Matt, this is no different than paying full price on a left front fender on Tuesday at Hershey and selling it at your spot the next day for double the price or more. Is there a year round storage spot at Scottsdale that gets filled all year long for future auctions? The car haulers are the guys that really do well on these auctions. Bob 

[John348]

3 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

^^^^^ Thanks Matt, this is no different than paying full price on a left front fender on Tuesday at Hershey and selling it at your spot the next day for double the price or more. Is there a year round storage spot at Scottsdale that gets filled all year long for future auctions? The car haulers are the guys that really do well on these auctions. Bob 

 

Yes there is, they also have a dealership. While true there is nothing wrong with making a buck, but they are making an extra 16% on the transaction because they are only paying the fees to themselves. It's probably me, I just get a bad vibe from the entire BJ scene. Especially the pit boss with the shades on scouting out the audience.

 

Matt you being a dealer I know you have to make a buck, however an auction house one presumes that they are earning their 8% to 10% (on both ends of the sale) by doing their best to get the most for the seller of the car. In their situation it appears to be a conflict of interest

 

All in Auction means is that the buyer spent more then anyone else in the room, sometimes...….

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

2 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Yes there is they also have a dealership. While true there is nothing wrong with making a buck, but they are making an extra 16% on the transaction because they are only paying the fees to themselves. It's probably me, I just get a bad vibe from the entire BJ scene. Especially the pit boss with the shades on scouting out the audience.

 

Matt you being a dealer I know you have to make a buck, however an auction house one presumes that they are earning their 8% to 10% by doing their best to get the most for the seller of the car. In their situation it appears to be a conflict of interest

 

Another odd thing to me is that 99.9% of BJ is no reserve.  That means they really don't even have to try to make money.  Sure they make more if a car sells for more, but they still make plenty even if it doesn't bring top dollar.  I have a hard time justifying why a seller would trust that BJ is actually trying their best to get the most for their car.

[John348]

2 hours ago, 39BuickEight said:

 

Another odd thing to me is that 99.9% of BJ is no reserve.  That means they really don't even have to try to make money.  Sure they make more if a car sells for more, but they still make plenty even if it doesn't bring top dollar.  I have a hard time justifying why a seller would trust that BJ is actually trying their best to get the most for their car.

 

I wonder how many of the cars they actually own  go through the block? 

https://showroom.barrett-jackson.com/

Edited January 24, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)