What's your experience with Restoration Shops, good and bad?

[McLovin]

I've had my 69 Mach 1 at two different auto restoration shops over the last 11 years. After the first shop abruptly went out of business and my car was impounded, it took me over a year to get some of my parts back that weren't sold or stolen and was out of about $12k The second shop was highly recommended and a well-known race car builder in Alaska who has had it for 6 years with an original estimate of one year. Two and a half of those years it's spent in a conex with no progress at all! The endless excuses and broken promises of progress has been extremely frustrating as it's obvious that different cars are in and out of there constantly as my car sits idle for no good reason. It seems there's a common theme for auto restoration shops where they show initial interest, tear the car down and then just stop working on it and go on to other things. What happened to a man's word? What happened to the meaning of integrity? My story seems to be similar to others I've read, why is this? It's been my experience that Auto restorers are just liars and flakes!

[Andy J]

I've not had much experience with restoration shops,but there is one where live that is very legit.I know the man that owns it.I asked about getting the doors fitted and adjusted on a car I was restoring and he honestly told me that he couldn't get to it. I really appreciated that because some people will take it in,as you very well know,and keep jacking you around.He does high end work and stays about 4 years behind.He has regular customers that he builds for and if you can get him to take your job,it's a 4 year wait.I would rather have someone look me in the eye and tell me they can't get to it or don't want to do it,rather than bring it in and have it sit there collecting dust.

[Trulyvintage]

You chose the two shops.

 

Jim

[plymouthcranbrook]

My only interaction with a real restoration shop was about 20 years ago. It was then and is still now as far as I know a very professional business. They certainly had a fairly high class of cars when I hired them.  I needed some frame repair and everyone else I talked to wanted me to take the body off the frame and bring them the frame alone and they would see what they could do. The shop I did take it to said sure we can fix it. Just bring it over. I did and after asking me how I planned to use the car( a driver)he said no problem.  Within a couple of weeks I got a call to come and get it. They replaced the bottom of the frame on both sides and fixed a couple of body mounts that were weak. They even installed the rear shocks I has been struggling with when he saw them sitting on the back seat. It wasn’t cheap($900 in 2004) but has held up just as the owner promised. So I guess I am saying that there are some good ones out there. Even willing to make a hole in their schedule to help out a beginner owner with a project.

[Bloo]

It's all too common. This is why I don't take cars apart anymore. I've seen stories like yours too many times.

 

Shops that can actually do something at a high quality level DO exist, it's just that they are few and far between, and there seem to be less of them every year. Waiting lists, not surprisingly, are long.

[Guest]

In response to the topic question, no.  You need to cast a wider net in identifying possible shops.  Ask around, attend car club activities, and ask around again.  Why?  Because nearly all good shops don't need to advertise, they have a backlog of work.  You'll uncover these shops usually only by word of mouth.  Instead of finding good shop recommendations, you may learn of ones to avoid.  That's good info, too.  Give more weight to recommendations from recent customers of a particular shop and also ask what they wish they had done differently if they were going to go through the process again.

 

You have learned from the two shops that you've used.  Note those topics of concern to you for discussion with any new shop that you might be considering.

 

As others have noted, the good shops are fewer in number, so consider how far you are willing to transport your car to a shop.  That balance between a good shop and travel distance is a call only you can make.

[1935Packard]

Sorry for your frustration. If you don't mind me asking, with the Alaska shop, how often have you called to check on how things were going, or dropped by in person to see how things were going?  And have there been any billing disputes up to this point?  

[marcapra]

I am doing most of the work on my 48 DeSoto, except for things like an electric shop for the starter, or a clutch shop for the clutch.  I was warned long ago to not just take your car to a shop and tell them to make it like it's a new car.  That would cost a fortune, so I took auto mechanics and body and paint classes so I could do most of the work myself.  I do plan to take it an upholstery shop when everything else is done!  

[f.f.jones]

 IMHO, I think we have past the age where the average Joe can afford or justify having a car restored. If you're not able to do the lion's share of the work yourself, you are MUCH better off purchasing the best complete, running, reliable car you can afford. In my recent experience, shops today cater to and are supported by the big money collectors and investors. There is no way most hobbyists can afford attorney level hourly rates for a shop to wrench on their old car, or patiently wait the months or years it takes to complete. Even those with more than average resources find it difficult to justify resurrecting a project vehicle when good to excellent examples can be found for a third of the dollars one might spend on a restoration.
There will always be those who will have the ability and/or finances to complete a new build, but,as we see today, project cars go wanting while their reliable and attractive brothers frequently find good homes selling, in many cases, for a modest premium over the project.

It's sad to say, but the world is changing. Home and car ownership is down and wages lag behind inflation. As these trends continue, the standard of living we once enjoyed is deteriorating. 

As I see it, the way we will continue to enjoy our hobby at the average person's level is by appreciating and maintaining what we have and what becomes available, not necessarily stretching resources to transform projects into prizes.  

[alsancle]

Like everything there are good shops and bad shops and everything in between.  Just like there are good customers and bad customers,  good projects and bad projects.  

 

It looks more like you are building a resto-mod to me than restoring the car.   At this point it would be 10x quicker and cheaper to buy a finished one.

[McLovin]

3 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Sorry for your frustration. If you don't mind me asking, with the Alaska shop, how often have you called to check on how things were going, or dropped by in person to see how things were going?  And have there been any billing disputes up to this point?  

I've been in constant contact with the owner who has given me the promises all along of progress that simply doesn't and hasn't panned out as he's promised. Comes across as the nicest guy in the world but his words seems to mean nothing. I've even dropped by many times unannounced, Peter falk, Columbo style to see what he's working on and it's never my car but instead more excuses and promises of  future progress. No money disputes or anything of that nature.

[McLovin]

1 hour ago, f.f.jones said:

 IMHO, I think we have past the age where the average Joe can afford or justify having a car restored. If you're not able to do the lion's share of the work yourself, you are MUCH better off purchasing the best complete, running, reliable car you can afford. In my recent experience, shops today cater to and are supported by the big money collectors and investors. There is no way most hobbyists can afford attorney level hourly rates for a shop to wrench on their old car, or patiently wait the months or years it takes to complete. Even those with more than average resources find it difficult to justify resurrecting a project vehicle when good to excellent examples can be found for a third of the dollars one might spend on a restoration.
There will always be those who will have the ability and/or finances to complete a new build, but,as we see today, project cars go wanting while their reliable and attractive brothers frequently find good homes selling, in many cases, for a modest premium over the project.

It's sad to say, but the world is changing. Home and car ownership is down and wages lag behind inflation. As these trends continue, the standard of living we once enjoyed is deteriorating. 

As I see it, the way we will continue to enjoy our hobby at the average person's level is by appreciating and maintaining what we have and what becomes available, not necessarily stretching resources to transform projects into prizes.  

Well put! Thanks for the reply.

[1935Packard]

19 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I've been in constant contact with the owner who has given me the promises all along of progress that simply doesn't and hasn't panned out as he's promised. Comes across as the nicest guy in the world but his words seems to mean nothing. I've even dropped by many times unannounced, Peter falk, Columbo style to see what he's working on and it's never my car but instead more excuses and promises of  future progress. No money disputes or anything of that nature.

 

Got it. Sorry to hear.  Not a happy situation. 

[McLovin]

47 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Like everything there are good shops and bad shops and everything in between.  Just like there are good customers and bad customers,  good projects and bad projects.  

 

It looks more like you are building a resto-mod to me than restoring the car.   At this point it would be 10x quicker and cheaper to buy a finished one.

I understand what you're saying but unfortunately nostalgia plays into it since I've owned it for 40 years and have lots of good memories driving it. Couldn't stand seeing it in pieces once I got it back from the first loser. The only really mods are the mustang 2 suspension which the first shop did, eliminating the shock towers and the second shop needs to install a 428 FE motor with a 6-speed manual tremic behind it. This guy builds race cars, it's what he does, he's just been slow walking the project big time and I'm running out of patience as I've been certainly more patient than most would be.

[R Walling]

 As a shop owner or 54 years, I can answer your question why work on your car does not progress.

 When I first went into business, I would take in jobs where the owner was in "no hurry" as long as the price was cheap and I could do the work when I had no other work.

 (You can see where this is going)

 

 Well when business got going good, I found very little "extra" time on my hands, so into the back corner it goes.

 I soon learned, and I only took in work that I could do right away. Even then, some little job that would only take a few hours came in from a good customer that I couldn't refuse. (Now you really can see where this is going!)

 

 Now that I have men working for me that I have to keep busy, I take in work and repair them in the order that they came in... (except for the little jobs that you can't refuse)

 

  And then, there is the inevitable waiting for parts to arrive...🙄

 

 Ps, there is never a time that there is nothing to do for a new shop owner.

 There is always sweeping, , putting out  the trash and going to the dump with all the old fenders.

 Oh,  did I  forget cleaning the toilet?

Edited November 29, 2023 by R Walling (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

I wish we could say this is the first time we have heard about nonsense from a resto shop.  You are his captive audience and he knows it. As a small  business owner I can attest to the fact that he needs a steady stream of cash flow to keep moving forward. No idea (and its not my business, just making a statement) on your pay schedule or arrangements you have but 1. I would think the shop is doing small maybe insurance jobs that he can turn around quickly 2. He may be taking monthly draws from cars he has in the shop 3. he takes a decent size deposit to start the job.

If it were me I would want to see exactly where any money I had spent can be accounted for. Also, I would make a scheduled monthly visit to check progress and make the next payment. If the shop knows you are going to be there the first monday of every month with payment they may put your car to a high priority as opposed to surprise visits. 

Taking the car to another shop will put you even further behind. Maybe you need to have a sit down and talk honestly with the shop. Quite frankly ask him if he expects to finish the work in a timely manner or just look at your car.

I was in the same position having a motor rebuilt. Took 3 years plus. Guy built a motor previously for me in 3 months. Covid was part of the problem. I know the guy and his work very well but was tempted several times to get it out of his shop. In the end I am glad I let him finish it, still not happy with the time table though.

[Andy J]

3 hours ago, McLovin said:

I understand what you're saying but unfortunately nostalgia plays into it since I've owned it for 40 years and have lots of good memories driving it. Couldn't stand seeing it in pieces once I got it back from the first loser. The only really mods are the mustang 2 suspension which the first shop did, eliminating the shock towers and the second shop needs to install a 428 FE motor with a 6-speed manual tremic behind it. This guy builds race cars, it's what he does, he's just been slow walking the project big time and I'm running out of patience as I've been certainly more patient than most would be.

Aha! I know a lot about this kind of deal. The town where I live has a very large dirt track facility with a very good 1/4 mile track.There are many people here that have race cars.If you go into a shop here and there is a race car in the shop,leave unless you have good connections with them.They will work on race cars for beer,for little or nothing,or for nothing while paying customer's cars get worked on when they can get to it. If deer season has opened,forget it all together.I don't know how people survive like this,but they do.I couldn't get away with it. I always had to work.

[Angelfish]

My truck was in 10+ shops over about the same number of years, "Oh, about 6 months, just have to finish the one ahead of you," and "I was going to get started on it in the next few weeks."  Lost parts, missed deadlines.  I started to understand ratrods: shoot it flat black and drive it, much more fun than being strung along by an apathetic / crooked shop. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

@McLovin lots of great advice here.  AK is far from the Northeast part of the lower 48.

Because you have had your car so long it reminded me my HS buddy who has had his 68 Mustang  GTA 390 since age 14 (class of 81 me and 82 for Rich to give you an idea of just how long..😁).  He eventually faced reality and shipped the car to Glazier's in PA to restore it as he never got to it.  Mustang specialists.  Closer to 3 years than the initial plan of 18, 24 mos. But it is back and he loves it.  Distance was a factor so the provided regular updates and pics.  He traveled to see it only once or twice but it seemed like work was pretty steady.  That said, I have no idea what it cost him, never asked. 

[Xander Wildeisen]

Businesses in this industry are preyed on. The kool aid that is poured for business owners is unbelievable. This tall glass of kool aid can overflow onto customers, get them sticky and wet. A desire to wash your hands will follow. Some customers like and enjoy a sweet and sugary beverage. And will continue to drink the kool aid. Again my comments go to the State of Idaho. And all that it does to destroy peoples lives in pursuit of owning people behind the scenes.

[Paul Dobbin]

10 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Sorry for your frustration. If you don't mind me asking, with the Alaska shop, how often have you called to check on how things were going, or dropped by in person to see how things were going?  And have there been any billing disputes up to this point?  

     Good point,   I have farmed out some jobs, but never a whole restoration.   I follow-up very often and NEVER let payments ever

     occur before the the work.   (Parts and supplies are the exception)    In person follow-ups are more effective than phone calls.

     and I do want to see the parts when they come in.

[Terry Bond]

"Trust but verify."

[Bhigdog]

Over the last 20 years I always had good luck with Bob's restoration shop, (owner is now retired from major restorations).  Five body off restorations were completed  in that time. Bob always did them in order and on time. Whenever there was a glitch Bob always made it right without excuses. Shame all shops aren't like that...................BTW, I'm Bob.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[McLovin]

5 hours ago, R Walling said:

 As a shop owner or 54 years, I can answer your question why work on your car does not progress.

 When I first went into business, I would take in jobs where the owner was in "no hurry" as long as the price was cheap and I could do the work when I had no other work.

 (You can see where this is going)

 

 Well when business got going good, I found very little "extra" time on my hands, so into the back corner it goes.

 I soon learned, and I only took in work that I could do right away. Even then, some little job that would only take a few hours came in from a good customer that I couldn't refuse. (Now you really can see where this is going!)

 

 Now that I have men working for me that I have to keep busy, I take in work and repair them in the order that they came in... (except for the little jobs that you can't refuse)

 

  And then, there is the inevitable waiting for parts to arrive...🙄

 

 Ps, there is never a time that there is nothing to do for a new shop owner.

 There is always sweeping, , putting out  the trash and going to the dump with all the old fenders.

 Oh,  did I  forget cleaning the toilet?

I appreciate your reply Mr Walling and your experience but I can assure you this has been no charity case as I've been paying him all along and way over original estimate as expected. This guy just takes in much more work than he can handle, greases you up and tells you what you want to hear and  then doesn't deliver. I've seen his finished work and I know he's very talented but seriously lacks integrity. Recently I've had discussions with him about this problem of his but nothing gets through.

[B Jake Moran]

10 hours ago, McLovin said:

I've been in constant contact with the owner who has given me the promises all along of progress that simply doesn't and hasn't panned out as he's promised. Comes across as the nicest guy in the world but his words seems to mean nothing. I've even dropped by many times unannounced, Peter falk, Columbo style to see what he's working on and it's never my car but instead more excuses and promises of  future progress. No money disputes or anything of that nature.

Time to get it out of there.  Be very careful.  You say that the progress isn't what you were hoping for, can I pay my bill and take it home.  Pay it, then take it home and sell it.  No need for more frustration. 

 

I am going to use a shop in Iowa that I have visited and was recommended by West Peterson. 

[TAKerry]

If you are happy with the work he turns out, and are strong willed then keep it there. Again, I would have a face to face and try to come up with a reasonable time frame for completion, if nothing else maybe some milestones. Again, not my business, but you said you have overpaid to date. I would be getting that in order asap. Again accountability of work done for compensation. 

[60FlatTop]

A restoration shop is far out of my scope and interest in this hobby. I have been in the hobby since September of 1959 when I bought my first issue of Rod & Custom with the yellow coupes on the cover. I have owned project cars since my early teens. At about 23 years of age I has enough money to farm jobs out. All through my 20s I was let down by people "I thought" (there are those two dangerous words again) could do a job for me. I sit here now and cannot think of five satisfying jobs done, even small ones.

I have a lifetime of generalities and stereotypes of shops, shop owners, workers, and car owners. Guys like me wouldn't make generalities and stereotypes if those people didn't keep doing the same things over and over.

Most common is the "do it cheap when you are not busy" syndrome. So many, many times I have seen cars rot into the ground on that one. Second is the "sick wife".  Find the shop door locked and somewhere in a five mile radius you will find the small shop owner at the bar bemoaning his sick wife when you catch him for an update.

Body shop guys, when they are young they don't have enough experience and the older ones have been breathing the fumes so long they ain't right either.. There are 10 major body panels on a car. It it was a test you would rarely see an 80%. "Someone opened the door and cold air made the quarter and door paint sag" or "the air hose broke and blew dirt all over. Big it back in a month or two and I will buff it out". I'd swear these words came from a script.

 

I should write a book about these experiences. I would use the money to buy tools. I have spent more on tools than I ever spent in a restoration shop. I have enjoyed the hobby by buying reasonably good cars and maintaining them. Sometimes I listen to the restoration rhetoric and wonder "Yeah, they are talking about the big restoration project but are they really capable of maintaining all the facets of a car

 

"Trust but verify" Well, if I could make it over that first big hurtle..... 

[Gen III Antique Auto]

This is why I only take in one car at a time now.  One car, one focus.  It kills me waiting for parts but it's better for everyone than it getting sidetracked.

[Scooter Guy]

This is, unfortunately, not an uncommon scenario. 

 

My observation and opinion is that many restorers and shops are run by folks that really do love cars and may be exceptionally good at working on them but that those same people often have no interest or skills in the business side of the operation. That is, things like scheduling/timelines and project management. Some struggle with communication to their customers, others have issues on the financial side with invoicing and collecting payments. Some just plain bite off more than they can chew and complicated projects languish while the shop decides to fish or cut bait, and some don't even realize that they've done it until they walk in one day there isn't anywhere else to park one more car. 

 

 What to do about it depends on how badly you want the skills of any particular restorer. It really comes down to tolerating the way they do business or moving on. And I don't mean to minimize moving on either: if you've got a car torn apart in someone's shop, it's much easier said than done to tell someone to cut their losses and move on. There certainly are those unicorn shops out there that don't have issues but they're really few and far between. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Scooter Guy (see edit history)

[1932 plymouth pb sedan]

Not trying to piss you off, but you screwed up twice in 11 years. You need to KNOW the shop owner, not necessarily on a personal level. I have so many questions.

What kind of restoration shop to look for: What else do they do? collision work? (restoration takes up valuable space in a collision shop)

What type of reputation do they have? results of previous jobs? qualified support staff? office staff to run the business side? what does the shop look like inside and out? do you just cut your losses and dump this project on someone else? 40 years of ownership? how old are you? are you retired and thinking of learning this trade part time and maybe finish it yourself while working for someone else? (everyone needs skilled labor and it's getting harder to find) and my most important question is, do you know how many hours of labor would be needed to get this Mustang to where you want it?

If you can answer these questions to yourself, go get your car and break out the checkbook.

I truly do not intend this to be a mean or derogatory reply, these questions come up more than you would think. Billy

[Xander Wildeisen]

You need to find the shop that has the right combination of guys. There needs to be background music, with lyrics that talk about overcoming obstacles or adversities. You need a good amount of horse play in between the staff to keep up morale. At least four guys to look at the carburetor, six-seven guys to install the coil. And to be safe, ten-twelve guys to swing in the engine. If you don’t mind me saying, your car was at the wrong shop.

 

[Ed Luddy]

15 hours ago, McLovin said:

I understand what you're saying but unfortunately nostalgia plays into it since I've owned it for 40 years and have lots of good memories driving it. Couldn't stand seeing it in pieces once I got it back from the first loser. The only really mods are the mustang 2 suspension which the first shop did, eliminating the shock towers and the second shop needs to install a 428 FE motor with a 6-speed manual tremic behind it. This guy builds race cars, it's what he does, he's just been slow walking the project big time and I'm running out of patience as I've been certainly more patient than most would be.

Go get your car back FFS.  There's a HUGE difference between an auto restoration shop and a con man posing as a restoration shop. Find an intimidating but silent, glaring dude to go with you  and have a tilt n' load truck on the ready. Have all your documents and receipts in hand and the local sheriff on speed dial. If your lawyer isn't into this scenario, fire his ass and get one who is.

[Akstraw]

Here is my wisdom on the subject ( My own definition of wisdom:  The natural result of being so old that you have already done everything you can possibly do - wrong the first time.):  Restoration shops are people, and people tend to do what they like first, and procrastinate about the things they don’t like.

 

i took a car into a “full restoration” shop for some metal fabrication, paint prep (shaping, filling, block sanding, priming),and paint.  Within the first two months, the metal fabrication was complete.  Then the car sat for two years.  Finally, I took another car (that I had prepped myself) in for paint, and picked up the first car.  The paint, buff, and polish on the second car was done in a month.  Bottom line: I learned that these guys love to metal fab, and they love to spray and finish paint, but, like most of us, they hate the dusty lengthy work of prepping surfaces for a first class finish.  Having learned that, I now do all the laborious filling, priming, and block sanding myself, and take projects to them for paint and finish only.  It is a great combination. They do great work, and they turn my paint projects promptly.  And, since all the labor is in the prep, it saves me dollars.  Yes, me and my arthritis have to deal with all the prep work, but at least the projects move forward.  

My advice; visit the shop you are considering, and look around at what type of work is going on.  If it is not the type of work you have in mind, find another shop.  (I have been in continuous touch with this shop for over ten years, and I have never seen any block sanding going on.  That’s a clue).  Shops will tell you they are full service, but you wouldn’t take an upholstery job to a transmission place, right?   I also think the labor pool has something to do with it.  It used to be that the enthusiastic kid who wanted to learn to paint cars started out doing all the s**t sandpaper jobs.  Kids with that enthusiasm are hard to find these days, and so are owners who want to pay an hourly rate for all that labor.

[edinmass]

It’s fairly easy to figure out shops…….walk around in them………if there are cars piled high and dusty find another place. Also, to restore real old cars……….read that as pre war stuff……..it’s ten times more difficult today than just a decade ago. Today’s world of fast and cheap with poor results is the norm. I’m not sure if many people follow the threads of the cars I’m working on……….we NEVER EVER tear a car all apart. If you do, it’s no longer a car. Even when sorting, we do one system or one target item at a time. Yes it costs a little bit more, but in the end if the shop or customer have unanticipated issues………you’re not ten feet in the hole. As a matter of fact, we have a standard way to attack cars depending on a total restoration, partial, sorting, or just an engine job. Today I installed some reproduction parts that haven’t been made in years………had three of them on the shelf. Years ago I knew I would need two of them. Well today the second one went on the car. The spare I have? It’s worth twice what I paid for it long ago, and there are ten guys who are in line for it. Plan out years ahead if possible. Today outside suppliers are fading fast, and many are overwhelmed and do poor work. As time progresses, I tend to do more and more of my own stuff that use to get sent out. Good shops are two to four years out. Sadly, if you need to ask how much…..you probably can’t afford it. I do this all day long, and the cost of EVERYTHING is asinine. Including the labor I charge. Had a visitor today ask an interesting question……….how many people can do the job you are doing? In reality, I told him 25 years ago there were two or three thousand guys who could have knocked the job out fairly quickly……..then I said today there are probably 100 people who would say they could do it………but in my opinion there were less than 15 competent people doing the job today. What makes good work? Research, experience, craftsmanship, and taking as much time as required to do the best possible job you can. Not many people can stomach 45 hours to adjust valves, or 60 hours for a brake job. That’s what it takes to get to it done, that’s what you need to do. In England a few years ago, I was in a WO Bentley only shop……the sign in the main area said “This isn’t a race, do it right the first time.” I complemented the owner. Sadly old cars require lots of time, and that is the one thing in todays modern world almost nobody has. 

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, Gen III Antique Auto said:

This is why I only take in one car at a time now.  One car, one focus.  It kills me waiting for parts but it's better for everyone than it getting sidetracked.

When I was in school and working for my dad, he would do 4 or 5 jobs at a time. I remember very well bouncing around during the week from one place to another. Customers becoming angry because we would be there for a couple of days then go somewhere else. He was trying to balance a busy work load with not enough help, even though there were at least 6 employees that I can think of. Later that business morphed into a large commercial building company when my brothers started running the show.  Many years down the road as we scaled back and the brothers retired, I started over from scratch. No desire for large jobs and the headaches that go along. We do one job at a time and stay there until finished. Whether its for half a day or 4 months. It creates a backlog of work but fortunately most of my customers are patient. I dont think a car could be done profitably this way (with more than a couple employees) with waiting for parts, drying times etc. but maybe 2 or 3 could be juggled so that there isnt a lot of downtime for anyone in particular. Taking one apart, setting it aside for 6 months or more then doing the same for another 4 or 5 cars just doesnt seem the right way to operate.

 

 

[8E45E]

22 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I was in the same position having a motor rebuilt. Took 3 years plus. Guy built a motor previously for me in 3 months. Covid was part of the problem. I know the guy and his work very well but was tempted several times to get it out of his shop. In the end I am glad I let him finish it, still not happy with the time table though.

Unfortunately, good, competent staff is difficult to find.

 

An example is SMS Auto Fabrics has a 1 year + waitling list for work to be completed.  Other specialized vendors, such as dash gauge face refinishers and certain mechanical shops also seem have long lead times.  In most instances, an automotive restoration shop will not get priority over an individual's order just because they are more 'important'.

 

Craig

 

[Dandy Dave]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s fairly easy to figure out shops…….walk around in them………if there are cars piled high and dusty find another place. Also, to restore real old cars……….read that as pre war stuff……..it’s ten times more difficult today than just a decade ago. Today’s world of fast and cheap with poor results is the norm. I’m not sure if many people follow the threads of the cars I’m working on……….we NEVER EVER tear a car all apart. If you do, it’s no longer a car. Even when sorting, we do one system or one target item at a time. Yes it costs a little bit more, but in the end if the shop or customer have unanticipated issues………you’re not ten feet in the hole. As a matter of fact, we have a standard way to attack cars depending on a total restoration, partial, sorting, or just an engine job. Today I installed some reproduction parts that haven’t been made in years………had three of them on the shelf. Years ago I knew I would need two of them. Well today the second one went on the car. The spare I have? It’s worth twice what I paid for it long ago, and there are ten guys who are in line for it. Plan out years ahead if possible. Today outside suppliers are fading fast, and many are overwhelmed and do poor work. As time progresses, I tend to do more and more of my own stuff that use to get sent out. Good shops are two to four years out. Sadly, if you need to ask how much…..you probably can’t afford it. I do this all day long, and the cost of EVERYTHING is asinine. Including the labor I charge. Had a visitor today ask an interesting question……….how many people can do the job you are doing? In reality, I told him 25 years ago there were two or three thousand guys who could have knocked the job out fairly quickly……..then I said today there are probably 100 people who would say they could do it………but in my opinion there were less than 15 competent people doing the job today. What makes good work? Research, experience, craftsmanship, and taking as much time as required to do the best possible job you can. Not many people can stomach 45 hours to adjust valves, or 60 hours for a brake job. That’s what it takes to get to it done, that’s what you need to do. In England a few years ago, I was in a WO Bentley only shop……the sign in the main area said “This isn’t a race, do it right the first time.” I complemented the owner. Sadly old cars require lots of time, and that is the one thing in todays modern world almost nobody has. 

Isn't that the truth Ed, You, John, and I, have one mutual customer. In the entire northeast he will only let one of the three of us work on his stuff. If that doesn't speaks volumes. I find myself doing less and less. Mostly because of health issues. Also because of the stuff most folks want is a quick, cheep, and dirty job. My services include none of the three. It sure does make crabby old men out of us dealing with the uneducated in our field thinking they can buy a POS. Have us go through it. And then flip it at a profit. 🙃 

[TAKerry]

55 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Unfortunately, good, competent staff is difficult to find.

 

An example is SMS Auto Fabrics has a 1 year + waitling list for work to be completed.  Other specialized vendors, such as dash gauge face refinishers and certain mechanical shops also seem have long lead times.  In most instances, an automotive restoration shop will not get priority over an individual's order just because they are more 'important'.

 

Craig

 

I waited 2 years to have my dash bezel restored. It has an engine turned finish and the guy that does the work is a school teacher by day and does the restore work as a hobby. As far as I know he only does Trans Am stuff and he is THE go to guy. His work looks the same as is on the early classics though and I am sure he could broaden his base if he wanted to.

[Steve Moskowitz]

To answer the title of this thread the answer is NO!  We have a restoration shop on this forum that is anything but flaky and they do fabulous work at fair prices. We know as they did work for us and are about to do a car for a member who will donate it to us after it is finished. We get to interact with a lot of restoration shops and without exception the shops that seem to continually do work for AACA members are top notch.  I have watched over the years of sending folks to good shops only to watch them not pay their bills, become unrealistically demanding or just simply tell the shop owner to hold off "for a bit" which causes havoc in the shop.  I almost hesitate recommending people unless they really understand that some issues in restoration are out of the control of the shop and work on cars inevitably finds problems that no one knew existed. 

 

The fact is we should not be painting the entire restoration business with a broad brush.  There are good and bad shops, good and bad customers and that is the way it will always be.

[8E45E]

Just now, TAKerry said:

I waited 2 years to have my dash bezel restored. It has an engine turned finish and the guy that does the work is a school teacher by day and does the restore work as a hobby. As far as I know he only does Trans Am stuff and he is THE go to guy. His work looks the same as is on the early classics though and I am sure he could broaden his base if he wanted to.

Kind if hard to if he is THE guy to go to.   Appears there is no one else who can match is work.  Perhaps he has tried to train someone, but they are not able attain his high standard of craftsmanship for one reason or another.  I can understand the frustration on his part finding good help to maintain his minimum standard of customer satisfaction for excellence, especially if he already has a full time job and a two year waiting list. 

 

The issue I have with customers complaining (especially on a public forum) about lead times from these very specialized vendors is its not their fault they've become so in demand there's a two year waiting list, consequently, becoming a victim of their own success.    If too many complain about the lead time, and forget about receiving the excellent work that they paid for, all will lose out when they give up and shut down their operation, and leaving no source at all for accurately restored components.  I also reminded someone here about cutting a vendor some slack on lead times: 64 Daytona door panels from SMS Auto Fabrics - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

Craig