What's your experience with Restoration Shops, good and bad?

[West Peterson]

6 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

I have watched over the years of sending folks to good shops only to watch them not pay their bills .....

I have heard several times from high-quality reputable shops that this actually is (or was) a "sport" among a group of some very wealthy clientele.

[Brass is Best]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s fairly easy to figure out shops…….walk around in them………if there are cars piled high and dusty find another place. Also, to restore real old cars……….read that as pre war stuff……..it’s ten times more difficult today than just a decade ago. Today’s world of fast and cheap with poor results is the norm. I’m not sure if many people follow the threads of the cars I’m working on……….we NEVER EVER tear a car all apart. If you do, it’s no longer a car. Even when sorting, we do one system or one target item at a time. Yes it costs a little bit more, but in the end if the shop or customer have unanticipated issues………you’re not ten feet in the hole. As a matter of fact, we have a standard way to attack cars depending on a total restoration, partial, sorting, or just an engine job. Today I installed some reproduction parts that haven’t been made in years………had three of them on the shelf. Years ago I knew I would need two of them. Well today the second one went on the car. The spare I have? It’s worth twice what I paid for it long ago, and there are ten guys who are in line for it. Plan out years ahead if possible. Today outside suppliers are fading fast, and many are overwhelmed and do poor work. As time progresses, I tend to do more and more of my own stuff that use to get sent out. Good shops are two to four years out. Sadly, if you need to ask how much…..you probably can’t afford it. I do this all day long, and the cost of EVERYTHING is asinine. Including the labor I charge. Had a visitor today ask an interesting question……….how many people can do the job you are doing? In reality, I told him 25 years ago there were two or three thousand guys who could have knocked the job out fairly quickly……..then I said today there are probably 100 people who would say they could do it………but in my opinion there were less than 15 competent people doing the job today. What makes good work? Research, experience, craftsmanship, and taking as much time as required to do the best possible job you can. Not many people can stomach 45 hours to adjust valves, or 60 hours for a brake job. That’s what it takes to get to it done, that’s what you need to do. In England a few years ago, I was in a WO Bentley only shop……the sign in the main area said “This isn’t a race, do it right the first time.” I complemented the owner. Sadly old cars require lots of time, and that is the one thing in todays modern world almost nobody has. 

 

People today have watched to many tv shows where the whole car has to be finished before the end of the half hour episode. They have no idea what it takes to restore a car.

 

Ten years ago, I had an educated person who runs a successful business come to me. He wanted to restore a 1937 Packard 110 sedan. I told him that I do not do customer work, but I would give him my opinion. We have mutual friends, and I did it as a courtesy. I went and looked at the car and told him $125,000 to $150,000 is spent right away and to expect overages. He informed me I was nuts. The next time I saw him he came up to me and explained he found a shop that could do it for $15,000. I told him no shop could do that. Some time passed and I heard the car was all apart and the $15,000 was gone. But another $15,000 would get it back together. This same story continued for several years. As time passed, he would not mention the Packard when he saw me. About 6 years after the process started, he walked into my shop one day. He wondered if I could sort out all of the problems that the car has now that it is done. I told him that was a job for the restorer. I asked if the car was really all done. He told me yes except for the trunk but nobody looks in there. I asked what it cost him because I had been so wrong in the beginning. He told me he stopped keeping track at $150,000 and that was a year ago. 

 

I have seen this happen many times. A person finds the low bidder and it costs them in the end. They spend more money and get a substandard product. 

[John Bloom]

9 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

 

People today have watched to many tv shows where the whole car has to be finished before the end of the half hour episode. They have no idea what it takes to restore a car.

 

Ten years ago, I had an educated person who runs a successful business come to me. He wanted to restore a 1937 Packard 110 sedan. I told him that I do not do customer work, but I would give him my opinion. We have mutual friends, and I did it as a courtesy. I went and looked at the car and told him $125,000 to $150,000 is spent right away and to expect overages. He informed me I was nuts. The next time I saw him he came up to me and explained he found a shop that could do it for $15,000. I told him no shop could do that. Some time passed and I heard the car was all apart and the $15,000 was gone. But another $15,000 would get it back together. This same story continued for several years. As time passed, he would not mention the Packard when he saw me. About 6 years after the process started, he walked into my shop one day. He wondered if I could sort out all of the problems that the car has now that it is done. I told him that was a job for the restorer. I asked if the car was really all done. He told me yes except for the trunk but nobody looks in there. I asked what it cost him because I had been so wrong in the beginning. He told me he stopped keeping track at $150,000 and that was a year ago. 

 

I have seen this happen many times. A person finds the low bidder and it costs them in the end. They spend more money and get a substandard product. 

This....., and then apply it to virtually every profession you can think of.  I'm a dentist.  I will not even begin to tell on a public forum the horrors that have walked into my office, only to be depressed even further when the patient told me how much money they have spent to get to this awful state.  And to be fair, the other side of the equation is equally a problem, patients who do themselves no favors, and make it virtually impossible to work on them and do quality treatment.  

 

Car restoration, dental work, accountant, plumber ..............the list is endless but the principle and lessons are the same.  Find good people, expect them to be busy, work with them and establish realistic expectations and a good working dialogue.

[Matt Harwood]

I call it the "Wal-Mart Mentality." Cheap is the only thing that matters. In my business, people will pay 95% of retail price for a piece of junk but not 105% retail for a perfect car. Price is the only thing that matters. In fact, the first (and often only) question most guys ask is, "What's the least you'll take?" Never, "How nice is it?" or "Can you tell me about things that may need attention?" or "Is there anything wrong with it?" Just price, can I get it cheap, and how low will you go, usually followed by, "How cheaply can you ship it?"

 

And with that in mind, I am reminded of one of my favorite sayings that I use frequently: The bargain-hunter usually screws himself.

[Zimm63]

As a practicing CPA, I can attest to unrealistic client expectations.

 

People make decisions that affect taxes without advice, and then expect me to somehow magically fix their mistake.  Oh, and can I get a break on your fee?  Umm, no.

 

[Gunsmoke]

moderator or poster, please change title to "What's your experience with Restoration Shops, good and bad". Thanks

[TTR]

I'd say yes, ALL restoration shops are and have always been flaky.

How else would we ALL stay in business ?

While I don't deal much with general public (who needs the headaches ???), I've managed to get away with being a flake for my small but select clientele over 30 years and still have a waiting list.

And now, after few years of searching, finally found a very promising new apprentice/assistant, I will eventually need to teach him all my secrets of how to be flaky if he wants to be a part of and succeed in this business.

[Walt G]

11 hours ago, edinmass said:

Also, to restore real old cars……….read that as pre war stuff……..it’s ten times more difficult today than just a decade ago. Today’s world of fast and cheap with poor results is the norm.

TRUE WORDS. There are a severe lack of people going into "basic" repair and understanding of how to do that. "Vocational " schools are things of the past, the hands on learning there is gone or going... Places to learn now are seeing graduates with some knowledge but also have the "we know more then you do" attitude, have more courses in "administration" then practical hands on "fixing". Inflated egos of importance.

So much to learn "on line" but the tap of a button does not take into account the hands on learning. I see this in historical research as well - on line information is great BUT the clarity of a printed period photograph on coated stock paper no matter how many pixels are pixelated  ( get anyone smiling with that phrase? ) the original is the first generation off the original photograph. I look at things from the standpoint of not only an automotive historian ( not trying to be fancy in title here) but from a decades long ( 4 plus) involvement in state and local history.

Seeing a great photo or a video of a structure is not the same as actually being there to see it in person, just the enormity of the whole thing is not appreciated until you see the real thing. I don't live to far away from NY City - in Manhattan to see the Chrysler building ( exterior and interior) is astounding - pictures do not do it justice. to be in the Cloud Club room at the top and think to yourself "REALLY!" .   It is the similar situation /experience with a wheel and tire on a pre war car- look at a photo of the wire wheel on my 1930 Packard and the tire mounted there. Then see the real thing and try to pick it up out of the front fender where it is mounted as a spare - not the same experience.

 

Doing research for a story that gives the broad picture of what was going on at the time - not just the history of a car company - but ask oneself who supplied the car manufacturers? - head and tail lights, lenses, trim, springs, fabrics ? what was the economy like at the time, the transportation of the materials to build the vehicles? it all plays a part in the story and I think gives a better appreciation an understanding of it all. But again information today is expected to be instant - wrong - and if something is needed the person needing it expects the person who has it to blink an eye and then have it be theirs. Consider if you need a period image/photo - first has to be located, then possibly scanned ( if it fits the scanner without damaging the 90+ year old original) saved, possibly resized, cropped? adjusted to be lighter or darker, saved and noted what it is - this takes hours , but the person that wants it wants it instantly.

 

[60FlatTop]

11 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s fairly easy to figure out shops…….walk around in them………if there are cars piled high and dusty find another place.

When I saw this topic that was the mental image that came to mind. I have been in shops all over the country and that is the image.

 

I completely agree with what I called the "Component Restoration" approach. Although sometimes I get carried away and do not do as I think I should. There are pictures of my '64 Riviera with the chassis pulled out from under and I never touched the paint or interior. Same with my Buick convertible.

 

People have asked me "Haven't you ever painted a whole car?". Well, yeah, back in the mid 1970s I had one done. One or two panels at a time may be all that is necessary to satisfy me.

 

I got my nephew to do a full mechanical restoration on my '86 Park Ave convertible. He was fairly young and doing automotive side jobs. I wanted to introduce him to managing larger jobs. He took the car away June 25, 2011.

 

And drove it back November 24th, 2011 for Thanksgiving Day.

 

Only about four months. It was a major job, certainly not a restoration 100% but enough.

Every Friday we settled up for time and materials. I expected to pay. If I wasn't paying there was a problem. That was our main contact. Had it been a shop my expectations of periodic billing would have been the same. After it came home there were still small jobs I continued with, tires, NOS wheels, routine maintenance.

 

My other cars have had similar incremental jobs done. I have been farting around with a fresh paint job for my '64 Riviera for almost 10 years now. Like some restoration shops! Next year. We'll see.

[Peter Gariepy]

Your post and topic are both hyperbolic and anecdotal.

 

Lots of good shops out there. 

 

You're a new forum user here and your opening topic was to strike a negative tone.  Maybe you should consider you're part of your own problem.

[60FlatTop]

Up here in the frozen tundra of western New York the shop owners I know are trying to be polite about providing free heated storage their customers are looking for this winter.

[jp1gt]

As I see it most resto shops are doing high end cars. It is easy to go over the cost of the car. 

[pkhammer]

6 minutes ago, jp1gt said:

As I see it most resto shops are doing high end cars. It is easy to go over the cost of the car. 

 Not always high end cars. I know four shops pretty well that do restorations, one does nothing but Model A Fords. When I last visited this shop I discussed this very subject with the owner and was told his clients know up front that for a frame-off full restoration, the cost would most certainly exceed six figures. If upgrades like overdrive, full syncro trans, or electronic ignition was added, the price just goes up from there. We all know what a restored model A is worth, yet he has all the business he can handle.

 

  Another shop had a mid-sixties four door Plymouth Valiant in for a full restoration. Car was in sad shape but the owner had sentimental attachment to it.

[CarNucopia]

8 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I call it the "Wal-Mart Mentality." Cheap is the only thing that matters. In my business, people will pay 95% of retail price for a piece of junk but not 105% retail for a perfect car. Price is the only thing that matters. In fact, the first (and often only) question most guys ask is, "What's the least you'll take?" Never, "How nice is it?" or "Can you tell me about things that may need attention?" or "Is there anything wrong with it?" Just price, can I get it cheap, and how low will you go, usually followed by, "How cheaply can you ship it?"

 

And with that in mind, I am reminded of one of my favorite sayings that I use frequently: The bargain-hunter usually screws himself.

The expression I used when a customer complained about our price was:

 

“We’re always cheaper then buying the wrong thing”

 

 

I’d wager part of the problem the OP has is, the probability of a good shop taking a disassembled project from a lesser shop is pretty small. It’s like the car get’s cursed and bounces around from one exorcist to another, never finding peace (and pieces).

Edited November 30, 2023 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[8E45E]

Another story:  Max Weinberg claiming car restorer stole $125,000 - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

Craig

[8E45E]

On 11/29/2023 at 2:23 AM, alsancle said:

Like everything there are good shops and bad shops and everything in between.  Just like there are good customers and bad customers,  good projects and bad projects.  

A 'bad' shop "restored" a '55 Pontiac.  The 'good' shop showed him what the 'bad' shop did all wrong:   Collector car auction horror story.... - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum  (note the account is from just over 10 years ago, and the $60K as stated will be double that, now.)

 

Craig

[jp1gt]

22 hours ago, pkhammer said:

 Not always high end cars. I know four shops pretty well that do restorations, one does nothing but Model A Fords. When I last visited this shop I discussed this very subject with the owner and was told his clients know up front that for a frame-off full restoration, the cost would most certainly exceed six figures. If upgrades like overdrive, full syncro trans, or electronic ignition was added, the price just goes up from there. We all know what a restored model A is worth, yet he has all the business he can handle.

 

  Another shop had a mid-sixties four door Plymouth Valiant in for a full restoration. Car was in sad shape but the owner had sentimental attachment to it.

I was referring to normal cars and normal people (not a boatload of money)with no sentimental attachment.

[60FlatTop]

A friend of mine and I like to say "Oh, it's just another 10 minute job" when we refer to the restoration process. If it wasn't for underestimating costs and over estimating skills a restoration would never get started.

 

During the 1990s I only worked on freshly restored and well maintained original cars, no restoration work. Mostly I made freshly painted worn out cars steer, start, and stop. I would say "Pile up your e receipts and total them. You are about 90% there". At the time I typically saw $30,000 refurbishments and it usually took about $3,000 to make the reliable and safe. Sometimes more.

 

The 10 minute thing came from a job on an original '41 Cadillac. The owner had bought it in 1964 and said it rattled like an old junker. The hood bumpers and door weatherstrips were all shot. The hood was resting on the diecast grille, a possible big disappointment. There were a lot of bumpers. And there were four doors of weatherstrip. The owner was agitated at my estimate of the cost. I volunteered to let him work with me and I would deduct the full labor rate for his time. I took one side of the door strip removal, he took the other. About half an hour later he came around to my side soaked in sweat. "Can you take me home and bring my car back when it is fished?" He had another car he dropped off for a brake job. The "while you have it their" additional request totaled to just under 30, maybe 27, of those wave of the hand ten minute jobs. On that one I gave him the total and he said "That seems like a lot for a brake job".

 

These experiences were never my livelihood, just things I did after my regular job to support my hobby.

Edited December 1, 2023 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Zimm63]

"10 minute jobs" reminds me of replacing the heater blower motor on a 240 Volvo.  

 

Takes about 10-20 minutes.  Of course, thats after about 3 hours of disassembly to get to the thing, and before another 3 hours to put it all back together again.  Parts cost was about $65.  

 

Did one on my car and another on my Brother's.  The second one was faster, but not by much.  

 

Lots of little jobs like that follow a big job just to get to the item needing repair.  

[1912Staver]

I have done several 240 blower motors over the years. You are completely correct, the first one takes the longest. The later ones a bit quicker. Great cars, with the possible exception of blower motors. 740's are a lot easier.

[plymouthcranbrook]

My ex brother in law’s Father made his living restoring Model As. His wife worked as well and I am sure provided a steady income and insurance.  He tried to do two a year in his garage and did it full time, one at a time.  I think he did everything that was needed to be done from mechanical to cosmetic.  I knew him slightly and never really discussed the work with him as my interest in Model As was even less than it is now.  This was in the 60’s and to at least the end of the 70’s. He must have been in his early 60’s when I met him in the mid 70’s. His son told me he never lacked for work with people lined up to get their cars in his garage. I know most of my story is hearsay but does tell how a small restorer could make a living before things went crazy a few decades later.

[McLovin]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:00 AM, Peter Gariepy said:

Your post and topic are both hyperbolic and anecdotal.

 

Lots of good shops out there. 

 

You're a new forum user here and your opening topic was to strike a negative tone.  Maybe you should consider you're part of your own problem.

Yeah, very funny pete. Was just trying to get input of others that might have fallen into the same position. My only part in the problem was picking the wrong shops. I'm not a negative person in general, just been very frustrated at the process and I guess quite honestly was venting as well.

[McLovin]

On 11/30/2023 at 9:30 AM, TTR said:

I'd say yes, ALL restoration shops are and have always been flaky.

How else would we ALL stay in business ?

While I don't deal much with general public (who needs the headaches ???), I've managed to get away with being a flake for my small but select clientele over 30 years and still have a waiting list.

And now, after few years of searching, finally found a very promising new apprentice/assistant, I will eventually need to teach him all my secrets of how to be flaky if he wants to be a part of and succeed in this business.

Well hopefully your new recruit will have more integrity than you and keep his word and promises as a real man should.

[Peter Gariepy]

2 hours ago, McLovin said:

Yeah, very funny pete. Was just trying to get input of others that might have fallen into the same position. My only part in the problem was picking the wrong shops. I'm not a negative person in general, just been very frustrated at the process and I guess quite honestly was venting as well.

Not meant to be funny.

 

Yes. You picked the shops. No doubt hopeful at their ability to do the job. But you also left the vehicle at the shop for years.  6 years by your own admission in one case.  The shops may have been bad, but your lack of holding them accountable played into it as well.   Take some responsibility.
 

I stand by my comment:  Your post and topic are both hyperbolic and anecdotal.  Not all shops are bad, and your experience is NOT representative of most restoration shops.

[CChinn]

28 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Well hopefully your new recruit will have more integrity than you and keep his word and promises as a real man should.

What’s up with the personal attack on TTR?  Just because he is in the restoration business?  I do believe his reply was intended to be humorous. As a newbie, you should be aware that the forum rules do not allow personal attacks. The forum moderator has already modified your post title and has given you a subtle warning in his most recent reply. You are on his radar screen. Be careful IMO

Edited December 1, 2023 by CChinn (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Here is a 69 Mach 1, bought this for my wife at the time. Surprised her with it, told her it was a customers car. She drove it around for a couple of years, would drive her son to kid related things in it. I think other parents (fathers) got rubbed wrong when she drove away in her driver, and they jumped in the mini van. If I had a shop going, I would be more than happy to take over the project. I jumped into a lot of half finished projects that were pulled from other shops. Sorry to hear about the problems, I try to throw humor at some of this car BS. Only thing that stops a person from drinking on a daily basis. 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, CChinn said:

What’s up with the personal attack on TTR?  Just because he is in the restoration business?  I do believe his reply was intended to be humorous. As a newbie, you should be aware that the forum rules do not allow personal attacks. 

TTR chose to 'poke the bear' with his sarcastic remark.  In other words, he's stating, you cannot tar all restoration shops with the same brush.

 

Craig

[K8096]

Bruce Springsteen drummer Max Weinberg sues garage for alleged ‘shoddy’ Mercedes restoration after being promised a ‘work of art’

https://nypost.com/2023/12/01/news/springsteen-drummer-max-weinberg-sues-garage-for-alleged-shoddy-car-restoration/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons

Edited December 2, 2023 by K8096 (see edit history)

[Buick35]

I bought a wheel at Hershey and as soon as I got back home I dropped it off at the powder coated and still haven't gotten it back yet! I hope by Christmas since its a present. They said hopefully this week but this week's come and gone.

[Gunsmoke]

Like most things in life, our own personal experience often frames our own personal view, even though we admit our experiences are usually just anecdotal. As such we need to remember they are not representative of everyone's experience.

 

I've restored/rebuilt 2 cars, doing mostly my own work when I can. However when I need a shop/specialist, I ask people who have been in the hobby a lot longer than me who they suggest. Had an near 80 yr old do a lot of excellent body work in his home garage (based on a recommendation), and had 2 different restoration shops do work (based on a recommendation), one small one/two man operation, a second larger one. Their work was excellent, pricey, but I knew beforehand "you get what you pay for". These shops are a huge and valuable resource for the hobby, without them most of our cars would collect dust in the back of a garage. Sure there are corner-cutters and posers out there, but it does not take much of an effort to find them out and they don't usually last long. Like everything in life, do your homework and you will get along just fine.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

12 hours ago, K8096 said:

Bruce Springsteen drummer Max Weinberg sues garage for alleged ‘shoddy’ Mercedes restoration after being promised a ‘work of art’

https://nypost.com/2023/12/01/news/springsteen-drummer-max-weinberg-sues-garage-for-alleged-shoddy-car-restoration/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons

I like Max’s playing but c’mon, you can afford a real deal 300 instead of a poseur 190

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, bryankazmer said:

I like Max’s playing but c’mon, you can afford a real deal 300 instead of a poseur 190

 

Funny thing about car collecting.  You will see guys with the means to buy the "good" version of something yet they don't.  The 190 is an MGB with Mercedes badging.

[TTR]

18 hours ago, CChinn said:

What’s up with the personal attack on TTR?  Just because he is in the restoration business?  I do believe his reply was intended to be humorous. As a newbie, you should be aware that the forum rules do not allow personal attacks. The forum moderator has already modified your post title and has given you a subtle warning in his most recent reply. You are on his radar screen. Be careful IMO

No worries CChinn.
As noted by 8E45E , sarcastic humor doesn’t always convey well, especially in written form and mine, I’ve always been told, is perhaps more twisted than that of others, but I can’t help it, my life of countless hard knocks has formed and been a source for it for as long as I can remember.

 

I’ve also always been of a opinion that a person who can’t laugh at or take a joke about themselves or their own misgivings usually lacks sense of humor, no matter how hard or often they may try to be “funny”. 

[oldcarfudd]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

The 190 is an MGB with Mercedes badging.

Now there's a short, pithy sentence that will manage to inflame owners of both cars!

[alsancle]

48 minutes ago, oldcarfudd said:

Now there's a short, pithy sentence that will manage to inflame owners of both cars!

I lecture my wife all the time about getting her point out efficiently. I just managed to offend thousands of collectors with a few words.

[Dr B]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

I’ve also always been of a opinion that a person who can’t laugh at or take a joke about themselves or their own misgivings usually lacks sense of humor, no matter how hard or often they may try to be “funny”. 

So true!

 

Robert

[plymouthcranbrook]

20 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I lecture my wife all the time about getting her point out efficiently. I just managed to offend thousands of collectors with a few words.

Thus you are a true professional.  I hope to learn at your feet. (If I can get to the floor and more importantly get back up)

[TAKerry]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

I lecture my wife all the time about getting her point out efficiently. I just managed to offend thousands of collectors with a few words.

I gave up on that about 35 years ago!  Heck, most times Im afraid to ask for something simple let alone tell her something to do!! 

[TTR]

On 11/30/2023 at 5:47 AM, Brass is Best said:

 

People today have watched too (😉) many tv shows where the whole car has to be finished before the end of the half hour episode. They have no idea what it takes to restore a car.

 

I agree. 

I've probably mentioned it here before, but about maybe 20+ years ago, before said shows became popular, I was approached by some TV people wanting to make a show(s) about my work.

I told 'em I absolutely have no interest of degrading my business/industry/work or myself in any such manner and the few brief moments I've seen some of those "shows" since then/over the years, have proved me having had made the right decision. 

But then again, I don't have any desire* or need to "share" my work on internet forums, websites or YouTube, etc. either.

 

* At times I've wondered how many (as in what percentage of) "rebuilding/restoration projects" their owners, especially DIY hobbyist, have initially and very enthusiastically started sharing/posting about on some forum or website, often to great (virtual) applauds by others, only to eventually stop and perhaps (or probably ?) never to finish it ?

50% ? 75% ? 90+% ? 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[McLovin]

22 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Here is a 69 Mach 1, bought this for my wife at the time. Surprised her with it, told her it was a customers car. She drove it around for a couple of years, would drive her son to kid related things in it. I think other parents (fathers) got rubbed wrong when she drove away in her driver, and they jumped in the mini van. If I had a shop going, I would be more than happy to take over the project. I jumped into a lot of half finished projects that were pulled from other shops. Sorry to hear about the problems, I try to throw humor at some of this car BS. Only thing that stops a person from drinking on a daily basis. 

Thanks, very nice! After all these years, still my favorite model.🙂