Question on education path for car Restoration

[Steffen]

Hi, I'm trying to learn more about what trade school / educational path is best for me. My goal is to professionally pursue a car restoration career - specifically in European classics. From what I have learned so far, its best to attend a trade school where I can get hands on teaching and experience in restoring cars. My end goal would be to eventually and hopefully open my own shop where I restore classics for clients. I've read on other threads many responses where people say that the best is to buy your own old car and start working on it yourself. This doesn't seem like the best idea to me because I would be without professional guidance or prior education. This would only cost me time, money, and nerves. 

 

What are the best trade schools for learning to restore classic cars professionally ? 

 

Should I consider a college degree in automotive mechanics? 

[padgett]

"open my own shop " First I would recommend creative accounting.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Steffen, from my limited knowledge, 

McPherson College is highly regarded

for degrees in antique automotive restoration.

I understand that it has been the only

college to offer a 4-year degree on that

subject.

 

The Pennsylvania College of Technology

(a well regarded trade school affiliated with

Pennsylvania State University) formerly

offered a 2-year degree in antique auto

restoration.  However, that program, according

to their website, was placed on hiatus, and 

was to be combined with modern car bodyshop

learning--in my opinion, rendering the degree

far less useful for anyone with old-car aspirations.

[edinmass]

I recommend attending a local community college while working at a restoration shop. The talent needed to run a business, and restore cars is a very rare combination. There are lots of good restorers that are poor businessmen.....they work very hard......and barley make a living. 

[keithb7]

I’ve not personally pursued this career. However thinking about what skills I lack, I might suggest:

 

Automotive technician program in a trade school.  Also get your own old car to start getting in depth hands on experience asap. 

 

After school, land a professional job working on cars. Perhaps at a shop that specializes in classic and vintage cars. That would be a bonus. Take another class in welding.  Maybe night school at a community college. Keep working. Learn from the experienced people working around you.  When you feel ready, maybe start taking on some vintage car work at home on the side, if possible. Gather up some clients. Build up your reputation. 
 

When you ready to dive in, you may have to leverage everything you own. Your house, car whatever. To get tooled up and set up to open your own business. Take some business Management courses?
 

Just book-smarts is not enough. You need real shop and hands on experience. You might as well get paid to get that. So go get it at your day job. Besides, in trade school they will likely focus on systems 5-10 years old and newer only.  Skipping all the classic systems you’ll be working on. 
 

Time. It takes time. There is no substitute for experience.  

Good luck. Go for it!

Edited January 2, 2021 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

I second McPherson. I have a former student who is currently attending their program (or was until COVID) he has really enjoyed it.

[CarNucopia]

McPherson College is the only place I know that has a program. Before you invest the time and money, see if you can get an entry level job at a restoration shop, sweeping the floors or whatever they need. Its a way to learn some basics and see if it’s really for you.

 

If you do decide to pursue it with the intent of owning your own shop, take some business management classes. I amazed at how many talented, would-be business owners I meet that can’t read financial statements.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Car-Nicopia (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

I recommend attending a local community college while working at a restoration shop....

 

Steffen, you may find that Ed (above) is especially

well qualified to give advice.  Ed is (correct me if I'm

wrong, Ed) a collections manager and skilled mechanic

who deals with high-end Classic 1920's and 1930's cars.

 

There's also at least one regular on the forum who

owns a well regarded restoration shop.  I hope he sees

your query. 

[edinmass]

Keith.......”Time. It takes time. There is no substitute for experience.”

 

 

Absolutely correct. You don’t know anything until you have spun wrenches for 5000 hours of actual shop time....and then you will realize how little you actually know. The skill set to do restoration work is much different than most people realize.

 

[TerryB]

Not quite restoration oriented but might be of interest

https://www.unoh.edu/academics/college-of-applied-technologies/automotive-technology.html

[3macboys]

In addition to all the above to learn business, which is not just the accounts side but more importantly the people side, go work in any small business where you are exposed to the sales people / service people and the owner.  If you are want to own your shop at some point you really are going to have to know customer service - best education I got was working for a small electronics store doing deliveries in high school, only 5 or 6 employees and the only guy there who went to college was the repair technician, everyone else just understood people and how to treat them - not as easy as you may think.  

[edinmass]

One more note..........there are some very good restorers out there. They can paint, fabricate, upholster, and do fantastic work...........making the cars go down the road correctly is a total different skill set than restoration . Most 100 point newly restored cars need 80-200 hours to straighten them out after a restoration. I have made my living sorting cars out after the fact. I enjoy it ten times more than actual restoration. 

[Walt G]

this was true even 40+ years ago. I wanted two of my old cars painted, a 41 Packard 8 cylinder woody and a custom built 1931 Franklin. I talked to a fellow who did excellent work in his huge 2 car garage and he learned skilled body and paint work in the 1940s. He told me , I will paint your car but you will have to put the time in as well . So for 2 + years, every weekend, every holiday and all the days I had off from work teaching school I would drive the 30 miles out to his house , be there at 8 am and work until 5 or 6 pm with a 45 minute break for lunch. At the time lacquer was the only paint that was really in use. When we were half way into the Franklin after finishing up the Packard he looked at me and told me " if you ever get tired of teaching I can get you a job as a painter in a body shop full time and you would be their lead man , I have the connections and you can start next week if you want to!!" It takes time and experience as everyone here has told you, listen to them - SAGE ADVICE.  I still can paint with lacquer like I did then ( don't know diddly about enamel, 2 stage, etc and don't care to).

[rocketraider]

MacPherson is good as is the WyoTech streetrod curriculum. You'll be taught everything, and the hands-on, metal fab and interior trimming is the same whether high end classic or high end streetrod. Both customers tend to be equally demanding.

[edinmass]

Interestingly.......people (employees) who are really good restorers in the big shops rarely are into cars at the same level that most of us here are. The grind of day in and day out of a restoration shop offers me no joy. Sorting a car, making it perform and drive perfectly.........that is what I find joy in. The harder the running problem is to fix, the more I enjoy it. Sadly.....I’m so old and experienced now that most running problems are easily fixed. It’s rare when I find a really challenging ignition or fuel problem today. Same thing goes with electrical issues.........thousands of hours spent on electrical systems and almost every problem becomes routine. Intelligence helps a lot........experience is what gets you to the finish line. The absolute most important skill when repairing cars.......is good logical diagnostic technique........sounds simple.......it isn’t. 

[TerryB]

Another option, I think they are on the West Coast

https://www.academyart.edu/degree/automotive-restoration-industrial-design/

[John Bloom]

34 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Keith.......”Time. It takes time. There is no substitute for experience.”

 

 

Absolutely correct. You don’t know anything until you have spun wrenches for 5000 hours of actual shop time....and then you will realize how little you actually know. The skill set to do restoration work is much different than most people realize.

 

THIS.  Time and experience will add to your skills.......and maybe even more importantly to your judgement.  I will share a story from my youth.  I am a dentist.  In dental school I really enjoyed the discipline of removable prosthodontics.  At the end of the four years, I had done several cases and worked part-time doing research in the field with the chair of the department, Dr Weibelt.  He was a gentleman and a genius.  Many dental schools used his text book to teach the entire field.  I remember thinking that in that field, I had learned so much and felt really good about knowing perhaps 50% of what there was to know about the subject.  Late one afternoon right before graduating, I was talking to Dr Weibelt about the field of removable prosthetics.  He was quiet for a while and mentioned pretty nonchalantly,  " I feel like I have a good grasp of about 3% of the field"........I didn't say anything.  There was nothing to say.........I was a young idiot who didn't even know what he didn't know.  Dental schools used his text to teach the subject and he had been the chair of the dept for 20 years.  I have never forgotten when he said that to me.   

 

  I would never present myself as an expert on Restoring and Mechanically dealing with classic cars, but I know that you need the gravity of many years, many situations, many different personalities of clients to even think of being competent in something as complex as running a restoration shop.  Others here might chime in, but I suspect the judgement and skill with the cars is only half the battle.  Dealing with the owners of the cars you are working on (and there are all kinds of different characters out there both good and bad), might be the skill that makes or breaks you.  Another issue, I've heard from friends in the business is "collecting".  If you are the kind of person who pays their bills on time, you will get an education when you are deep into hundreds of hours with someone and they don't pay their bill.  

 

I don't say any of this to discourage you!  As I reread this, I am self conscious that I may be breaking bad on the idea and come off as negative.  Don't take it that way.  Believe in yourself, Bet on yourself.  Come up with a plan and for God's sake, find a great Mentor.  That is a difference maker.  I saw a comment a few days ago asking about Fran Roxas.  Every restoration shop of any success started off with someone wanting to own their own business and work for themselves.  There are a number of guys on here who earn their living from Classic cars.  Listen to them, don't give up after a few years and I will say again.  Find a great Mentor.

 

 

[edinmass]

Find a great mentor........best advice I have ever seen here. I have had four or five. Each extremely talented in one or two areas of car restoration and repair. Pick and choose the best skills and attributes of each of them, commit them to memory. Interestingly.......when you get good skills and a great reputation.......you don’t have to put up with fussy clients...........the real talented guys have so much work they won’t work for difficult people. Just a few months ago, a friend who is extremely talented turned down a “dream job” from a client that would have made him able to retire five years earlier than planned.........he refused because he didn’t want the drama that was involved..........the people I work with have the same attitude as I do when it comes to working on cars.......if it isn’t fun......I REFUSE to deal with it. I work on things most people would pull their hair out of their heads dealing with. Recently we were driving when a Big Bang and and the “noise of destruction” that sends a chill up you spine occurred. The guy driving turned to me and said what the hell was that? I smiled and said “time and materials......and it will be all set.” His next question was “how much”...............response was whatever it takes. He mumbled under his breath.

 

[Steffen]

Thanks for all the advice - I have a much better idea of what I need to do. Thanks to all. 

[1935Packard]

1 hour ago, Steffen said:

Hi, I'm trying to learn more about what trade school / educational path is best for me. My goal is to professionally pursue a car restoration career - specifically in European classics. . . . 

 

What are the best trade schools for learning to restore classic cars professionally ? 

 

Should I consider a college degree in automotive mechanics? 

 

Lots of good advice here.

 

One more thought: One useful career strategy is to find the people who have the job you want and to call them up and ask them how one gets there.  People like to talk about themselves, and you'll often get some very good tips about what to do and what to avoid by talking to someone who has recently done what you want to do.

[CarNucopia]

14 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

One more thought: One useful career strategy is to find the people who have the job you want and to call them up and ask them how one gets there.  People like to talk about themselves, and you'll often get some very good tips about what to do and what to avoid by talking to someone who has recently done what you want to do.

 

Along these lines, another piece of advice I give people looking to start a career is to tell everyone you know or meet what you are trying to accomplish. There are almost always connections you were not aware of that will can be very helpful.

 

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

Find a great mentor........best advice I have ever seen here.

 

 

Great advice. I was fortunate enough to have three. So much of what I have accomplished was built on the lessons and encouragement they gave.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Car-Nicopia (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Nobody mentioned passion, you have to find an era that you can relate to and become knowledgeable in it. You don't take a Model A Ford to a muscle car shop or vice versa. What era has some foreseeable future with people willing to start on a hundred thousand dollar entry level restoration? Two or four years in any school to get a framed piece of paper isn't going to get you a restoration project. The skills are learned the old fashioned way, or you open a shop and hire the skilled staff, seams to work on the TV shows. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, edinmass said:

Interestingly.......people (employees) who are really good restorers in the big shops rarely are into cars at the same level that most of us here are. The grind of day in and day out of a restoration shop offers me no joy. Sorting a car, making it perform and drive perfectly.........that is what I find joy in. The harder the running problem is to fix, the more I enjoy it. Sadly.....I’m so old and experienced now that most running problems are easily fixed. It’s rare when I find a really challenging ignition or fuel problem today. Same thing goes with electrical issues.........thousands of hours spent on electrical systems and almost every problem becomes routine. Intelligence helps a lot........experience is what gets you to the finish line. The absolute most important skill when repairing cars.......is good logical diagnostic technique........sounds simple.......it isn’t. 

Great point. I know a couple of guys that have large shops, they have little interest in old cars as a hobby. Along the same lines, I used to build period furniture as a hobby and loved it. When I started getting commissions (wasnt looking for them) it became a second job and took out all of the fun. Thats when I started fooling around with cars. I have had some people ask me to work on theirs and I refuse, first because I dont know what Im doing and second because I enjoy tinkering with them.

[edinmass]

One of the most talented mechanics, welder, and machinist I know drives a new car every year.......and says......I hate fixing things. He has a garden and barnyard full of livestock for a hobby. He has worked on a lot of the worlds best cars.......and I have never seen him drive anything more than three years old.

[joe_padavano]

14 hours ago, padgett said:

"open my own shop " First I would recommend creative accounting.

 

^^^THIS. Any small business, whether auto restoration or restaurant or plumber or whatever, will only succeed if the owner understands business first. I'm not suggesting that you need an MBA to open a small business, but you DO need to understand the basic principles of operating a business, and especially making a profit. It's a cliche, but cashflow is absolutely the most important thing to a small business. Understanding where your costs are (and I'm particularly talking about indirect costs like rent, utilities, consumable supplies, benefits for the staff, and especially liability insurance) is the most important piece of this. How will you estimate the cost of the job? How will you finance the work in progress? What happens when the customer complains and doesn't pay, or takes you to court?

[1912Staver]

I started in the trade with a 9 month pre - apprenticeship course . As I was interested in British sports cars I naturally was inclined to find work at a shop that primarily worked on British cars. Stayed in the trade long enough to qualify as a Journeyman Mechanic. 40 + years ago so there was still a substantial number of British cars in use locally. Everything  from Austin Mini's to Aston Martin's. By the end of my time at the shop daily driver British cars were on the decline and the shop did an increasing amount of 1950's - 60's, collectors  British car mechanical work.

The 1980's brought a serious recession to my local area. Overall a very forest industry dependent Western Canada economy . The forest industry more or less stopped dead in its tracks and the larger economy followed suit.  

I switched to training for the Marine industry , a 3 year accelerated college program. But I worked in a restoration shop part time to keep money coming in. There was a really good body metal co worker and I learned a tremendous amount from working with him.

Despite my one time ambition to work Summers in the Artic Oil Patch as an Engineer and do customer restorations for the other 6 or 7 months of the year , it never worked out that way. The Canadian side of the Artic shut down at about the same time as my training was completed , and I spent 30 years in the year round, Coastal Marine industry.

 Probably for the best as I doubt I had the necessary discipline to run a very capital and overhead intensive business.

 But I still enjoy restoration work, especially my own cars where I can take as long as necessary to do things to my satisfaction, and not have to worry if the job is done quickly enough to be profitable.

 

Greg

[28 Chrysler]

My restorations started in High School with early 1920s - WWII radios in the winter and during the summer old wooden boats of the same age, from 12 - 35 Ft.

I worked in body shops and in electronics before and during my business classes.

I have degrees in Marketing and Business Operations. Get your hands dirty and beat up, don't be afraid to ask a bunch of questions.

[JACK M]

Probably not the best advice, but I always used the "No guts no glory" method.

I don't really have much of an education, Just a couple of terms at the community college. I am not much of a student.

I knew early on that I didn't really want to work for someone else. I work best when I am alone.

Started a couple of small businesses. Went broke a couple of times before I finally hit.

I can recall opening the door at 7 am and closing it 5 then going home after midnight.

A couple of years of that and I could afford to hire a front man. (salesman to keep the customers away from me and my work).

My dads advice was to give a new endeavor 5 years, If you cant live comfortably after that it ain't right.

I never beat my head against the wall at something that I didn't like doing.

I retired when I wasn't enjoying it any more.

[Ed Luddy]

17 hours ago, edinmass said:

Interestingly.......people (employees) who are really good restorers in the big shops rarely are into cars at the same level that most of us here are. The grind of day in and day out of a restoration shop offers me no joy. Sorting a car, making it perform and drive perfectly.........that is what I find joy in. The harder the running problem is to fix, the more I enjoy it. Sadly.....I’m so old and experienced now that most running problems are easily fixed. It’s rare when I find a really challenging ignition or fuel problem today. Same thing goes with electrical issues.........thousands of hours spent on electrical systems and almost every problem becomes routine. Intelligence helps a lot........experience is what gets you to the finish line. The absolute most important skill when repairing cars.......is good logical diagnostic technique........sounds simple.......it isn’t. 

Sorting out a "finished" restoration is a real skill that few people have.  Seen this a number of times, mostly on 60's & 70's muscle and pony cars.

Some of the recently done car's are  scary to drive at anything over a show field speed. I purchased a done 1969 Mustang Mach 1 years ago about 6 months after it had a year long very expensive resto. It was unsafe at any speed to speak of. Looked and sounded great, but needed another pile of cash to get it roadworthy.

 I almost started as an apprentice in the body shop trade as a teenager back in the 70's. But working on rusty cars in my buddy's back yard cured me of that venture! 

[1937hd45]

Finding customers that can keep up with the payments is the key to a successful restoration business. Many customers that can't keep up require a large storage building to house the projects. Dead project storage rates should be charged. 

 

Bob

[JamesR]

On 1/1/2021 at 8:06 PM, edinmass said:

The grind of day in and day out of a restoration shop offers me no joy.

 

I can believe this, and it translates to many other pursuits. I had a music store for a couple of decades.

[1937hd45]

Working in a shop that offers different levels of "finish" can zap your enthusiasm quickly, especially when it is a car you like, and know deserves more. 

 

Bob 

[nick8086]

This is about 18K to do..

 

 

 

Learn how to fix it first.. We have a lot of money from big business to make the programs great.. They have a shortage of trade works in our area..

 

McPherson College is not cheap..  They have a program to do it all..

 

Most schools to do not teach them about --  How do you set points on a car? Every thing today  is computer plug and play..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Guest]

On 1/1/2021 at 8:36 PM, edinmass said:

I recommend attending a local community college while working at a restoration shop. The talent needed to run a business, and restore cars is a very rare combination. There are lots of good restorers that are poor businessmen.....they work very hard......and barley make a living. 

 

 

I think that this is the best advice on how to be able to open your own shop by far.

I have hired persons in school autobody shop programs, and I feel that they receive much less actual hands on training than you could get working for some one, that has in his interest, that you learn your job in order to pay for your keep.

 A working shop has employees that will gladly teach someone that really wants to learn.

 So, go to a business school (so that you will know on how to financially manage your own shop) and get actual hands on experience from a working shop.

 While working in a shop, having business training, you could actually be put in a management position which will help you tremendously.

 Good luck and work hard!

Edited January 3, 2021 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

You should focus on being educated on automobile construction/mechanics. Learn the skills of the trade first. I have heard of McPherson but nothing other than that. I dont think there are many schools that specialize in the trade so it shouldnt be that hard to chase one down. Other than that, you should start to call every restoration shop from A-Z and inquire about an apprenticeship/employment. Hands on experience cant be beat. Lots of info on starting your business but I would think you are many years away from that point. Learn how to fix/repair/restore at a high level before you think about starting your shop. I would think you will have a good 15yrs of working for someone before you need to worry about starting on your own. In todays society of instant gratification so many want to start at the top. I cleaned a lot of trash and dug many a ditch before I became the boss (although Im still cleaning trash and digging ditches). Having been self employed for 40+ years, I can tell you there are a lot of perks, but its not all its cracked up to be either!

[Flivverking]

Keep in mind a large percentage of people  who seek higher and specialized learning...never end up anywhere near the field they studied for. 

 

That being said I know a fellow who studied to be a marine biologist 60 or so years ago and was an antique auto hobbiest.

Around 1965 he started a vintage auto parts business(mostly NOS everthing) in his small old timey home town in Mass.

  Well, he became very very successfull , is still going and owns all kinds of property in town. $$,$$$,$$$,00.

 

My 2 cents,

1. Have a back up plan.

2.Location,Location,Location!

(Meaning..go where the money is!)😜

And how old is Steffen?

 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I cleaned a lot of trash and dug many a ditch before I became the boss (although Im still cleaning trash and digging ditches).

 Boy, isn't that the truth!  👨‍🦳

[edinmass]

I fix CCCA cars all day long. Mostly the big, cool crazy iron. My university degree???? Finance and economics. I worked in both fields........fixing cars is ten time more enjoyable. 

[Restorer32]

We had an employee who graduated from McPherson.  He seemed to have a good grasp of the basics.  He left to live and work closer to home as his wife demanded.  We also recently had a Penn Tech graduate.  Nice kid but not well trained, even in the basics, unfortunately. I would suggest you get a job in a resto shop, sweeping floors if necessary.  You will learn more there in 6 months than you would at a tech school. My belief is that mechanical ability, as with musical ability and art ability, is something you are either born with or you're not.  Can you look at a mechanical system and quickly understand how it works and why it was designed the way it was?  A few months in a shop will tell you whether or not restoration is the career for you. 

[TTR]

On 1/1/2021 at 5:36 PM, edinmass said:

There are ... restorers that are poor businessmen.....they work very hard......and barely make a living. 

After nearly 30 years of experience in this "business", I can relate to that.

 

10 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

We had an employee who graduated from McPherson.  He seemed to have a good grasp of the basics.  He left to live and work closer to home as his wife demanded.  We also recently had a Penn Tech graduate.  Nice kid but not well trained, even in the basics, unfortunately. I would suggest you get a job in a resto shop, sweeping floors if necessary.  You will learn more there in 6 months than you would at a tech school. My belief is that mechanical ability, as with musical ability and art ability, is something you are either born with or you're not.  Can you look at a mechanical system and quickly understand how it works and why it was designed the way it was?  A few months in a shop will tell you whether or not restoration is the career for you. 

IMO, ^^ this is perhaps the best singular advise offered on this.

 

Just like in any other profession, be a accountant, janitor, teacher or doctor, you either "got it" or you don't.

And many of those, regardless of their degrees or experience, are not necessarily well suited for private business of their own.

 

Also, just like in any other business, compared to those that become sustainable, let alone successful, vast majority will fail.

 

Over the years, I've taken on some apprentices and while most or perhaps all might say having learned (a lot ?) from that experience, only one or two followed this as a "career path" (with their own shops) to find/found themselves struggling at best.

 

And my education ?

Middle school drop-out with lowest grade average in the history of the entire school district +/-6000 miles away from my current life.

Everything else, incl. my limited abilities to properly communicate in English and few other languages, self-taught (read my 1st signature line).

Edited January 4, 2021 by TTR (see edit history)