What is "Low Mileage"?

[capngrog]

Recently there have been a couple of threads on this forum that discussed the "low mileage" of a particular car and how it enhanced the value of the car.  I did a search of the forum to determine if this question had been discussed before, but I was unable to find a similar thread.  I think that I understand that "low mileage" means different things for different cars: for example, "low mileage" for a 2010 SS-XXXX might be anywhere from 05 miles to 5,000 miles.  "Low mileage" for 1940 Ford might range from 5,000 miles to 20,000 miles (or more).  Is the term "low mileage" a totally subjective term based on the vintage of a car, or is there a more well defined definition of "low mileage" out there somewhere?

 

Once the claim of "low mileage" has been made for a particular car, how can it be reasonably verified by employing a visual inspection only?  Since "low mileage" seems to command a premium price, it would be important to be able to verify (within certain limits) "low mileage" status.  In another thread, several suggestions were made on how to verify the "low mileage" status of a vehicle, and these suggestions included the following:

1. Foot control pedal wear;
2. Scratches on retractable windows;
3. Seat upholstery wear;
4. Tire wear;
5. Scratches on door sills;
6. Pitting of chrome;
7. Windshield pitting;
8. Rust/corrosion of the undercarriage;
9. Accumulated "crud" on the engine;
10. Low speedometer reading (this can be easily altered on older cars);
11. Carpet wear at the accelerator base;
12. I'm sure there are many more that can be suggested by folks who are more knowledgeable than myself.

 

Given the above (and other) mileage "tells", can they and others be repaired/refurbished/detailed to reflect a bogus "low mileage" status?  For example, the difference in wear between a 500 mile care and a 5,000 mile car could be relatively easily erased by rolling back the odometer and detailing/refurbishing certain wear points.

 

My guess as to an answer to the question posed by this thread is that it is a subjective definition that can only be established as true for a certain vehicle by inspection performed by a very knowledgeable person.  As "they" say, "let the buyer beware".

 

Cheers,

Grog

[old car fan]

We have a 57 Buick with 5800 actual miles,i would invite anyone to contest it.

Edited October 29, 2017 by old car fan (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Short answer (in my opinion) —YES 

[Larry Schramm]

My parents have a '79 Corvette with I think 2,000 miles.  I know that because it has sat in the same place in the garage and not moved for almost 40 years.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Mark Simmons]

Who was the person on here that had the tag line "If your not going to drive it you should collect clocks" ?  I totally agree with this statement. To buy a car of any type just to look at it in a garage is in my mind a crime against this great hobby.  That person would be better off just going to a car show or someones collection if all they want to do is look. Just my .02 worth. 

[PONTIAC1953]

average mileage for annual driving when these old cars were new was no more than 10,000 miles per year. i remember being so car happy when my dad bought me a 1962 impala in 1972, i drove it 10,000 miles in the first six months that i had it. when i bought my 1953 pontiac chieftain custom catalina in 1973 from it's original owners, it had 113,000 miles on the odometer, about 5,600 miles per year then. 

 

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

pontiac oakland club int'l.

[SC38dls]

Larry I would pay more for a 79 vett with 20,000 miles than I would for one with 2000 that hasn’t been driven in 40+ years. It’s a shame your parents haven’t had the joy of driving that car. I would bet it needs a complete engine, trans, fuel system and brake rebuild before it could be put back on the road. Cars are meant to be driven. I’m not trying to scold you or be an ass I just hate seeing something like this happen. Maybe some day it will be yours to have the fun of rebuilding it and getting it back on the road. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

The car will go to either my brother or sister.  I would doubt that it would need a complete rebuild but it would need the fuel system completely gone through from the carb jets to the fuel tank filler. Then the brakes would need to be checked and all of the fluids replaced / checked.

 

My wife has hers (ours), a '76 with about 70,000 miles. We bought it 40 years ago as a wedding present to ourselves.  We used to drive it more years ago, but since we got the '15 Buick truck we drive it more than the Corvette.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

It’s great a car like that will stay in the family. I would worry about all the seals being dried out. Hopefully I’m completely wrong. A picture of it would be neat to see. 

Sounds like your wife and yourself have enjoyed your vet and the truck. 

[DAVES89]

I bought my first Reatta that had averaged less then 6,ooo miles a hyear. Now at 29 years that total average is a bit less then 10,000 miles per year. I bought it to drive and drive it I am...

[zipdang]

I'm interested in hearing a response to capngrog's original query.

[Silent Thunder]

Let us not forget to mention a frame off restoration where not only is the car total redone but the engine is rebuilt. In this case the restorer typically resets the ODO at zero once complete. Done right I would say those are true miles. It accurately represents wear and tear on all components which is what mileage is all about.

[plymouthcranbrook]

I purchased my 1980 Plymouth Volare with 8500 miles on it in 2007.  I thought that was low mileage until I saw a 1979 advertised with 235 miles. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

I remember that several years ago, well known author

Tim Howley wrote an editorial for the Lincoln and Continental

Owners' Club about the pitfalls of low-mileage cars.

He pointed out, as some of the above members have,

that a car often has low mileage because it was stored

for a long time, and usually not stored well.  When it is 

finally brought out of storage and sold, it looks beautiful,

but all sorts of things are likely to go wrong.  So he advised

not to put so much emphasis on the low mileage of a car.

 

A dealer friend of mine advised that "low mileage" collector

cars were worth 10% to 20% more, in his experience, but

they certainly weren't a gold mine.

 

Yes, Mr. Grog, low mileage is a relative term.

A point which I noticed:  Cars of the 'Teens and 'Twenties

were not driven nearly as much as cars of later years:

Roads were usually dirt, and few people made long trips.

Therefore, it's COMMON to find an early car with 20,000 or so miles.

Edited October 30, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Marty Roth]

Our all-original 1937 Buick Roadmaster Phaeton (Convertible Sedan) 80C came to us around 2009 with slightly over 7,000 miles. She did require attention to all safety items as well as the fuel system. We have shown her and she has been awarded AACA HPOF and HPOF ORIGINAL recognition. We've also driven her on several national tours and passed 13,000 miles earlier this month.

[JFranklin]

My 1948 Plymouth has less than 90,000 original miles. I would consider that to be low milage.

[capngrog]

Marty;

 

How were you able to confirm the low mileage status of your car as opposed, for example, an expert restoration done in the '70s or '80s?  I would imagine that a beautiful rare car like your 1937 Buick Roadmaster Phaeton would have excellent documentation.  What sort of documentation would one look for to document extremely low mileage in a 72 year old (at the time of your purchase) car?  By the way, I like the way you have put her back on the road.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[capngrog]

12 hours ago, old car fan said:

We have a 57 Buick with 5800 actual miles,i would invite anyone to contest it.

 

How would you prove to a prospective buyer that your 60 year old car had been driven an average of just under 100 miles per year?  I would think that a combination of documentation and a car in excellent (nearly new) condition would be required.  What sort of documentation do you have?  By the way, I'm not contesting the low mileage of your car, I'm just genuinely interested in the overall "Low Mileage" status part of our hobby.  It seems that some folks really value a "low mileage" vehicle and are willing to pay big buck$ for such a vehicle. 

 

True "low mileage" usually equals excellent condition in my opinion, and I believe that the over all desirability of an older vehicle is predicated upon: "Condition, Condition, Condition".  Maybe that's the heart of the "low mileage" question. 

 

For example, at one time I owned a 1938 Chevrolet Master Deluxe with under 10,000 miles on the odometer.  The car was 75 years old when I bought it and appeared to be in excellent condition for a car of its age; however, there was no documentation with the car so I was unable to prove "low mileage" status when I eventually sold the car.  I had carefully examined the car and had friends (who were more knowledgeable) also look her over.  We all agreed that it was a low mileage car, but without documentation or knowledge of the history of the car, I was unable to confirm low mileage status.  With all of that said, although I considered the car to be in excellent condition, its exterior paint was rough, so it was a true survivor, but not a real show car.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[60FlatTop]

I was just noticing that my '60 Electra is approaching 90,000 miles. I bought it in '02 with 69,000 on it. If the old thing rolls over 100,000 miles I may drive it less.

 

Ever hear the story about Sam, the used car lot owner, who went back to Italy for a visit to the family? His Uncle Tony had a Fiat with 120,000 miles on it and he asked Sam to roll the clock back so he could sell it. Sam put it back to 55,000 for him.

Sam called from the US when he knew they were all together celebrating Christmas. He got his Uncle on the phone and asked how he made out with the sale of the Fiat. Tony replied "Sell! It only has 55,000 miles on it. I haven't even come close to getting my money's worth. It is a great car!"

 

What is mileage in the grand scheme of things? It is all relative, anyway. Like Uncle Tony and Uncle Al.

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

13 hours ago, zipdang said:

I'm interested in hearing a response to capngrog's original query.

 

 I think Pontiac53 said it best.  I personally always figured anything below five to eight thousand a year. Of course, even that on a forty year old car driven for the entire time is a LOT.  grog's thought that low is subjective is probably spot on.

 

  Ben

[28 Chrysler]

I have a 2009 Ford Ranger PU with 25,000 miles on it.

It has low mileage but unlike most of the trucks here I use it like a truck, so it has scratches, dings.

[charlier]

I saw a 30 year old Volkswagen at Fall Hershey this year with around 200 original miles on it. 

 

Cannot get much lower mileage than that at around 7 miles/year.

[Guest]

capngrog, I don't know how one would document it but the 1934 Diamond T 211 truck that my Grandfather drove from 1934 until 1963 when he retired had 2,700 miles on it.  Used almost exclusively to haul case goods from the railway yard to the wholesale warehouse.  It was only out of the city of Winnipeg once and then only 40 miles.  It's usual round trip was less than 2 miles.

 I have several registration cards for it during its 29 year run.  They show a gradual increase in mileage each year but there are some gaps.  Would these qualify to call this a low mileage vehicle???

[Ed Luddy]

Odometer readings on old 5 digit odo's need to be taken with a grain of salt. I often see ad's where "low mileage" is written and then a description of a full body off or completely restored follows. If it's really true, why was  the restoration necessary?

The condition of the car is a much better indicator than the numbers on the odometer

[cxgvd]

To prove low mileage you would use repair receipts which show date and mileage, registration cards as noted above as well as general condition.  A low mileage car has value if the vehicle can be used as is or makes for an easy restoration.  I currently have a 1939 car with 82000 on the clock, I think of it as low because the mechanical condition shows mostly original parts although it has been repainted and upholstered.  I also have a 100 year old car which shows 18,000, very little wear on the parts like cylinders and shackle pins so I am restoring the car easily.  I know the history of the car from new and can prove that with documentation but have no idea of the true mileage.  Doesn't matter, the car is being restored with modern bearings, seals, single stage eurathane paint, new nickel, etc.  Still has 95% of the original wood frame with part numbers stamped in.  Gary

[60FlatTop]

Very inexpensive and extremely low mileage cars are showing up on Craigslist every day. Many cars are listed at $1. And I see mileage from 10 to 25 miles all the time. I have been associated with some pretty shady car dealers over the last  six decades (really has if I count time with my Grandfather). And these ads are new.

 

I am currently a low motivated daily driver car customer, the cap on my searches is 60,000 miles, although the 30,000 to 40,000 mile range is probably what I will buy.

 

On my personal cars I strive for 15 miles per week, pretty much year round as long as the roads are dry. They aren't made to sit around (hint: count how many rounded parts there are. If it was supposed to sit around more parts would have a flat side.)

 

15 miles means 7 1/2 miles each way. That is a long walk home and a good incentive to have everything working.

A car that sits does not:

Have to have a good cooling system

Have to start when it is hot and only shut off a couple of minutes.

Need brakes that don't stop or pull one way or the other.

Need an operational electrical charging system or decent battery.

Need a good set of tires and some have grown children younger than their tires (you know who you are)

Even need a clear windshield that can be used as you drive into the setting sun.

 

That's a minimum, before you start enjoying it.

 

Right now one of the windshield time thoughts is the Buick Nationals in Denver next June. I have a room booked, so considering the 1700 mile one way trip. I can take my '60 Electra, my '86 convertible, or fly out and rent a car. With either car it will just be, go to the corner, top off the tank, and leave. Mileage really is relative.

 

If you are still reading, here is a interesting think I found when I had all my medical problems 6 years ago:

Imagine you just woke up and had no idea of the date OR the date of your birth. Then take a few moments to become aware of how your body feels. Guess how old you are from how you feel. I always come up with something around 45, I guess. Now try it with your cars, what mileage do they feel like?  Sorry if that REALLY messed up your day.

Bernie

Edited October 30, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

Below is part of the write-up I put in the window of this car when it is parked at old car events.  This car now has about 43,000 miles on it, and is almost 80 years old.  That computes to less than 540 miles per year!    I fixed a few broken manifold studs, restored the headlights to original, and had it re-painted after it received transport damage on the way to the Buick National Meet in Colorado Springs.  Other than that, it is all original.

 

1938 Buick Special Model 48 Two Door Trunk Back Sedan 

The History of This Car

This car was purchased new in Spring Hill, PA by a farmer for his wife (who apparently never learned to drive).  The car was used sparingly to transport eggs to market and for church on Sundays.   A relative acquired the car from the farmer’s estate and moved it to a Montana ranch where it performed the same basic functions.  He sold it to a collector in the Seattle area in 1993 who sold it again to a collector in Snohomish WA in 1997.  In July 2008, we purchased this original un-restored car with less than 39,400 actual miles. 

     This car is still all original and un-restored except that it has a “black replacement engine” accepted by the BCA as original as it was commonly done in the 40’s by authorized Buick dealers.  It was repainted in the original Whistler Grey Metallic by the third owner around 1978, and the previous owner swapped the rear end gears with a 1937 Century* so it cruises nicely at 60 mph.  He also replaced the original wiring harness to include turn signals, sealed beam headlights, and seat belts for safety.  The interior upholstery and other running gear is 100% original.

 

[JACK M]

Two comments about the low mileage vehicles that I own.

1.) I have a 95 F350, it has less than 140K on it and never lets me down, It gets driven regularly, usually towing.

It will sit for some months at a time and the batteries may go weak but that's about the only problems I have had.

2..) I have a 1965 Chrysler 300 that just turned 29,000 miles, It is a rare 4 speed car with AC and I have known it for forty years or so and it was almost never driven.

I would sometimes see it moved from one end of his shop to the other and maybe to another garage but I never saw it on the road.

After all those years it became available to me and I jumped on it.

First it was a total brake job of coarse, then I found the clutch was pretty badly burned up. Then some small issues like a rubber piece in the gas fill, I put new hoses and belts and found the fan clutch to be loose so it got all that.

All of the power window motors were jammed up so I replaced those.

About nine miles after the 29K the speedo started acting up so I pulled that and decided to fix the radio at the same time. The radio got an upgrade so now it plays FM and it got a new speaker.

While working on the radio I spotted some anti freeze on the floor mat, I will tell you that a heater core on that AC car was a PIA, but got it done.

Then I noticed some oil on the floor where a seal in the power steering was leaking, working on that I found that the idler had a bad tie end so replaced that.

The seal for the steering gear is on its way here so who knows what other gremlins may show up when I start driving it again.

I have to keep telling myself how lucky I am to finally own this car after all these years.

I am going to China TODAY for two weeks and look forward to getting the steering gear back in when I get back, Then it will probably be parked for the winter unless I get lucky with a dry day.

[51_Buick]

My 51 Buick has 20k on it

[SC38dls]

I drive the beast (38 Studebaker State Commander) on a regular basis. It has averaged 937.5 miles per year does that make it low mileage?  

Original paint, —engine, trans,  brakes, wiring rebuilt, interior fell apart when it was sat upon so that had to be redone. Built Aug 27, 1937. Just turned 75,000 miles today. 

[Marty Roth]

On 10/30/2017 at 6:41 AM, capngrog said:

Marty;

 

How were you able to confirm the low mileage status of your car as opposed, for example, an expert restoration done in the '70s or '80s?  I would imagine that a beautiful rare car like your 1937 Buick Roadmaster Phaeton would have excellent documentation.  What sort of documentation would one look for to document extremely low mileage in a 72 year old (at the time of your purchase) car?  By the way, I like the way you have put her back on the road.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

Hi Grog,

 

We bought the '37 Buick from a long-time friend and the estate of his friend / business partner. For many years prior to the sale, I was aware of the car, its history as a parade car for New York City Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, and the professional connection between LaGuardia and my grandfather. The prior owner had the documentation, had seen it many times, and shared the information with me. 

 

Beside the above, there is just something about an unrestored, but well-maintained low mileage car - I know because I've had several. The way everything fits despite the aged paint and trim, as well as the dirt and dried grease in certain areas are clues, but you do have to look carefully. Some things cannot be faked. The believed original 7K mile tires, including the unused but ancient covered sidemount spares were rock-hard. Wear patterns in several areas are the clues to look for. I'm confident with the car's provenance.

 

This was not a well maintained older restoration. there is wear and old marks in the leather interior. The original 2-part window in the rear of the convertible top with the vertical trim split was not reproduced and the convertible top still has its well-aged headliner. The aging of components which are entirely useful but showing careful use is unmistakable, as are the "battle scars" from years of parade use by such dignitaries as FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Churchill, and many others.

 

Thanks for your comments - we love driving this huge car. She draws attention everywhere she goes, and she does tour extensively, both top-up and top-down. The 3220ci OHV straight eight pulls effortlessly and she steers like the proverbial "Baby Carriage". My wife and daughter can steer her with one finger thanks to center-point steering, and shifting the floor-mounted three speed is simple although the big Buick can pull away from an (almost) dead stop in high gear because of the torque of the long stroke Buick engine.

 

I hope this helps to answer your thoughts, and that you someday find one as enjoyable and significant as ours.

[mercer09]

Who was the person on here that had the tag line "If your not going to drive it you should collect clocks" ?  I totally agree with this statement. To buy a car of any type just to look at it in a garage is in my mind a crime against this great hobby.  That person would be better off just going to a car show or someones collection if all they want to do is look. Just my .02 worth. 

 

 

that is what makes this hobby so great. there are 20 different ways to enjoy automobiles and one chooses to not drive their car and only admire it daily, as in a rose bush, that is their prerogative. some of us only enjoy #1 cars, some of us prefer preservation (me) and some are happy looking at rust. to each his own and who is to say who is right or who is wrong?

 

when you buy a car, it is yours to do with as you please, as sometimes in a hot rod, which btw does nothing for me................

[60FlatTop]

I have a pretty nice collection of wrist watches. I have a quiet afternoon coming up. Maybe I will pick up a few batteries and get them going.

Bernie

[capngrog]

A couple of days ago, a friend took me to the house of one of his friends to show me an "old car".  The 1968 Chevelle SS 396, shows only 9692 miles on the odometer, and, in my opinion, qualifies as a true "low mileage" car(although not a really desirable one).  I would hesitate to call this car a survivor, because it seems to be rapidly returning to the earth from whence it came.  WHAT A SHAME!  

 

The "rest of the story" is that the car belonged to the owner's mother who passed away some 20 or 30 years ago.  With Mom's passing, her car was parked behind the owner's house where it has remained ever since (ran when parked).  The VIN verifies that this car is a true SS 396, and it has a four speed transmission; however, the 396 is long gone, having been replaced by a 350 c.i. SBC when the 396 bit the dust many mango seasons ago.  I think that this car would be a candidate to provide the parts required to convert an automatic transmission SS to a 4 speed.  I would value any thoughts/opinions from forum members.  I haven't yet looked beneath the car to check out the state of deterioration of the transmission, bellhousing etc. but hope to do so in a couple of days.

 

Here are some photos of the "low mileage" Chevelle SS 396:

 

[pont35cpe]

I bought my 1982 S-10 new in December 1981. Speedo reads 846,588.2mi, odometer rolls over at 1,000,000mi. And "no" not the same engine... Actually the insturment cluster, speedometer, windshield wiper motor, and fuel gauge sender are still original equipment. Totaled it one time on April 12, 1997 10:05pm when I T-bone a 1200lb bovine. It`s been nice not having a car payment since 1984.  

[padgett]

And don't forget back when 5/50 warrantees were common, it was easy to reach under the dash and disconnect the speedo. Rental cars that were "by the mile" often suffered the same. Also for GM computer cars before 1996, it is trivial (no, am not going to say how) to make a digital odo read anything you want.

 

So personally I would not trust any odo in a pre-1996 car and even later ones would be suspect. I use other means to gauge the age/wear in a car.

[Harold]

In case it wasn't mentioned previously, it wasn't illegal to roll back odometers until the early 1970's, and even after that time the law was generally ignored.  My contention is that nearly every used car was clocked if it was sold used (especially by a dealer) 'way back when'.  I don't trust any 'low mileage' claim unless there is a stack of documentation to support it.

[28 Chrysler]

Low mileage at one time meant that the car / truck was below the mileage that would normally  require major repairs or a rebuild of major components. 1920s around 49,000 miles, 1940s around 79,000 miles, mid 1950s  99,000 miles, etc. A 1912 un-restored  car or truck with only 45,000 miles may not be in the best of shape.

[CarlLaFong]

On 11/1/2017 at 2:55 PM, Marty Roth said:

 The 3220ci OHV straight eight pulls effortlessly and she steers like the proverbial "Baby Carriage".

I would imagine a 3220 ci engine would pull quite effortlessly

[spencer yarrow]

My Dad bought the 1930 Hudson Brougham in 1974 with 11,000 miles, in 1971 it had paint and upholstery done and hasn't been touched since, it was passed to us early 2000 when because of poor health he had to go into care.

It now has 66,000 miles and gets used regular, about once a month when we put on around 100 to 150 miles in a day with the local vintage car club.

Three generations with the Hudson, my son will eventually inherit the Hudson and hopefully pass it on to his son.