Is "Flipping" dishonest, morally wrong, despicable, mean, detestable, vile, or illegal ???

[60FlatTop]

I had one incident where I was called a cheat and a liar for flipping a car I bought from him. I really like Studebaker Avanti's. One had been sitting near behind a house on a side road up south of town for a few years. I always slowed and looked at it when I used that road. It was a 1972 Avanti II. no interior, engine lying in the bay, unbolted and resting (binding) the steering linkage. I decided to stop and talk with the long term owner. I told him how much I liked the car and that I honestly wanted to bring it back. I bought it for $1,000. When we picked it up we found it infested with 1,000 wasp nests. And they didn't like us!

 

I was hesitant about putting it in the garage. It stayed in a far corner of the yard while I exorcised the families and hoped they didn't move into my house.

Once I did get it inside I discovered the previous owner had primered the car. In the process he removed the gell coat. The fiberglass had weathered and the strands blew with the breeze. It needed a prep and complete gell coat. An unexpected roughly three grand. And real Avanti's aren't so expensive. Unexpected and more than I was ready for with the known list of work. I think I got $1800 for it, towing, jiggling the engine around, killing wasps. And I was wearing the black hat.

 

Learned from that experience and I still don't know much about fiberglass bodywork. And my wife shows no sympathy for my frustrations.

[playswithbrass]

But kinda slimy. You think. That is the definition of a low down   ****. , ****no good flipper.  I say this having known someone who would do this and quite cheerfully brag about it afterwards. I no longer associate with them 

[gungeey]

3 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Flipping is fine by most of us, as we see buying and selling as ultimately market transactions. 

 

On the other hand, you can imagine a market transaction with a very personal component that might make us uncomfortable.  Imagine a little old lady who is selling her ailing husband's old car to help pay for his longterm medical care.  He has dementia, and is in a long-term care facility.  She needs the money, and she trusts people.  She knows someone in town who likes old cars, and she says, "I don't know what it's worth, but name a price.  I trust you."  Buyer sees that the car is a Shelby GT350, but he says, "Old Mustangs are common.  I could offer you $10,000 for this."   She sell sit to him for that amount. The next day, he offers it for sale for $300,000— a price that he gets. 

 

This is a legal market transaction, and the buyer did not lie.    But I suspect a lot of us would feel that there's something slimy about this.  Totally legal.  But kinda slimy.  The seller's lack of market knowledge is understandable, and she needed the money to help her husband.  The windfall to the buyer from this slight amount of market knowledge is massive.  Legal, but kinda slimy.

 

 

That could of easily been alleviated had the husband been forthright with the bride. 

"Honey, if something ever happens to me I want you to know the old car is worth a lot..I mean a couple hundred thousand a lot".

 

Some guys don't trust their brides enough to have them in the full know. They think the wife is going to hound them to sell it etc. The buyer was a scumbag in this case, but sometimes husbands keep important things from the wife. I'm sure the husband knew what he had.  If i had a 300k car i would be checking it's worth fairly regularly. Hubby decided maybe he'll divulge the full truth, maybe he won't. That guy payed a steep price keeping his treasure private. That's the lesson to be learned with that story. 

Edited July 28 by gungeey (see edit history)

[Reicholzheimer]

The Classic Flippers line, "I always wanted one of them".  

[JV Puleo]

It isn't our place to comment on how people conduct their personal lives. The scenario above still reeks of greed and dishonesty. Anyone who would do that deserves to rot in hell. There is always the other side of the coin too...MANY owners vastly overvalue their cars. We see this constantly...and it leaves the survivor with totally unrealistic expectations. I recently had to deal with this disposing of a collection accumulated by my late cousin. He died three years ago and left it all to his brother who died about two months ago. As the only member of the family qualified to negotiate a sale, I ended up with the job. With all my ducks in a row I got a call from the widow saying we weren't getting enough money. My response was to say that if she wanted me to stop I would...but I would be returning everything and washing my hands of the thing. In fact, the number her husband had given her was at least five times a realistic price.

 

I have two rules about buying, If the seller is a dealer and he undervalues an item that's his problem. He held himself out to be an "expert" and if he makes a mistake I'm perfectly happy to take advantage of that. If the seller is a widow or other family member with no specialized knowledge I feel it is a duty to get them the best deal possible. In a case like that, I usually do not make an offer as I feel that would be taking an unfair advantage.

 

And...not everyone knows what things they have may be worth. In the next room I have a pair of really nice upholstered 17th century chairs...English, dating from about 1670. I have no idea at all what they may be worth. They were a gift from a friend. When their house was being emptied they gave me the choice of any piece of furniture I wanted and I took the chairs. Now I realize that they need professional conservation and I simply am not in a position to have that done. They really belong in a museum but even the choice of the right museum is not easy. They could be worth a fortune but even though I've had them for years and actually do know quite a lot about 17th century books and guns I know almost nothing about furniture.

Edited July 29 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[The 55er]

The Classic Flipper's line: "This beautifully restored muscle car you're selling is exactly like my wife's first car, I've been looking for one just like it for years and I'd love to surprise her with this for our anniversary (or birthday or whatever it was). Wow, what's the least you'll take for it?.......... A few weeks later, it was resold at a huge profit. This happened locally or at least that's the story I got. Totally unethical and just plain wrong. I don't know how someone could do something like that but that's the world we live in today. Sellers beware.

[mrspeedyt]

i might be a little upset if i agree to sell something and he in turn flips it before he pays me for it and removes it.

[Reynard]

4 hours ago, The 55er said:

The Classic Flipper's line: "This beautifully restored muscle car you're selling is exactly like my wife's first car, I've been looking for one just like it for years and I'd love to surprise her with this for our anniversary (or birthday or whatever it was). Wow, what's the least you'll take for it?.......... A few weeks later, it was resold at a huge profit. This happened locally or at least that's the story I got. Totally unethical and just plain wrong. I don't know how someone could do something like that but that's the world we live in today. Sellers beware.

 

 

Sorry, no sympathy. The sale was not made at gunpoint. Willing seller, willing buyer. Period.

Sad stories abound as well as lies. The seller bought the story and sold the car. That's life. A harsh reality, but the seller could very well have waited for other offers, but he chose the one he chose. Maybe the seller thought, "A bird in the hand..."

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29 by Reynard (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

9 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

It isn't our place to comment on how people conduct their personal lives. The scenario above still reeks of greed and dishonesty. Anyone who would do that deserves to rot in hell. There is always the other side of the coin too...MANY owners vastly overvalue their cars. We see this constantly...and it leaves the survivor with totally unrealistic expectations. I recently had to deal with this disposing of a collection accumulated by my late cousin. He died three years ago and left it all to his brother who died about two months ago. As the only member of the family qualified to negotiate a sale, I ended up with the job. With all my ducks in a row I got a call from the widow saying we weren't getting enough money. My response was to say that if she wanted me to stop I would...but I would be returning everything and washing my hands of the thing. In fact, the number her husband had given her was at least five times a realistic price.

 

I have two rules about buying, If the seller is a dealer and he undervalues an item that's his problem. He held himself out to be an "expert" and if he makes a mistake I'm perfectly happy to take advantage of that. If the seller is a widow or other family member with no specialized knowledge I feel it is a duty to get them the best deal possible. In a case like that, I usually do not make an offer as I feel that would be taking an unfair advantage.

 

And...not everyone knows what things they have may be worth. In the next room I have a pair of really nice upholstered 17th century chairs...English, dating from about 1670. I have no idea at all what they may be worth. They were a gift from a friend. When their house was being emptied they gave me the choice of any piece of furniture I wanted and I took the chairs. Now I realize that they need professional conservation and I simply am not in a position to have that done. They really belong in a museum but even the choice of the right museum is not easy. They could be worth a fortune but even though I've had them for years and actually do know quite a lot about 17th century books and guns I know almost nothing about furniture.

 

Great points, JV.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

 The concept of buying for resale is really not something I have an issue with.

 

That said taking advantage of friends, acquaintances, club members or surviving family members in an estate sale situation is pretty low.  FWIW I generally believe:

 

Best to sell things to strangers vs. People you know.  Ypu can avoid a lot of problems outside the above scenarios with this approach.

 

Consignment/auction approaches have a lot of advantages.  You know you/your heirs will pay x commission but everyone on selling side is generally (assumes honest agents) looking to maximize outcomes.

 

Don't fall for sob stories at least half are lies it seems.

[GrumpyJim]

What I find objectionable about flipping is...when said flipper joins a forum or website, and their only post is asking what the value of a given vehicle is. I feel if you are going to flip a vehicle, you should already know the value of it going in.

Edited July 29 by GrumpyJim
misspell (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I suspect they do Jim.  What they are often doing is trying to skirt rules about where ads should be posted and throwing a line in.  

 

Yet another thing to do for mods but "what's it worth" questions should maybe have a separate section.  We get enough of them here to see the pattern but it's not like we are innundated daily with them.  But I think all but the rarest cars can be researched at a hi level at least in a half hour.  It's definately fishing imo.

[Matt Harwood]

I have received numerous messages and E-mails from members of this very forum telling me how I am ruining "their" hobby with my business buying, selling, trading, and consigning old cars. It's largely why I don't list cars here anymore--I don't need the aggravation. While this thread seems to demonstrate that many of you think it's an OK practice, there are obviously quite a few guys who really do think it's despicable, mean, detestable, vile, and morally wrong. I think they're just angry that you can no longer buy a Model A Ford from an old farmer for $65 and want to blame me for it.

 

And if they get that pissed off about the rising costs of "their" hobby, we'd better not tell them about the mark-ups on clothing, furniture, carpet, and soda, which is likely the most profitable substance on earth.

 

It has long been my opinion that the buyer is the sole arbiter of whether something is priced properly. If the buyer believes he paid the right amount, then that's the right amount--what the seller paid for it is irrelevant. Obviously, if the buyer didn't think it was a fair price, he wouldn't buy. Sellers can likewise decide not to sell if they don't want to. Grownups have the right to make grownup decisions even if those decisions are sometimes grownup mistakes.

 

Just to make this post a little longer, I do have a conscience. A few years ago, a friend brought me a wonderful car, a car I had long expressed an interest in adding to my personal collection (the same song and dance many of you complain about, above). It was true, I really wanted the car and he suggested that I'd be able to afford it and he did indeed give me a number that was within reach. However, after doing some research into their values, I realized that the number he gave me was about 45% too low. I could not, in good conscience, buy the car for myself at the number he quoted, even though he's a grown man and an experienced hobbyist and I had no intention of reselling it. I told him as much, said that I couldn't afford it at its actual value, and eventually sold it to someone else for a market-correct price. I lost out on a car I really wanted, but I kept my friend's respect and my own integrity, which I felt was more valuable.

 

The car in question:

 

 

Now, would I have done this for a stranger? I'll be painfully honest and say I don't rightly know (especially since 99.8% of enthusiasts want too much for their cars, not too little).  But if I pay someone full asking price while simultaneously knowing it's not enough, is there even a crime? Everyone goes home happy, right?

 

Nevertheless, that question still keeps me up at night...

 

[kar3516]

3 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I have received numerous messages and E-mails from members of this very forum telling me how I am ruining "their" hobby with my business buying, selling, trading, and consigning old cars. It's largely why I don't list cars here anymore--I don't need the aggravation. While this thread seems to demonstrate that many of you think it's an OK practice, there are obviously quite a few guys who really do think it's despicable, mean, detestable, vile, and morally wrong. I think they're just angry that you can no longer buy a Model A Ford from an old farmer for $65 and want to blame me for it.

 

And if they get that pissed off about the rising costs of "their" hobby, we'd better not tell them about the mark-ups on clothing, furniture, carpet, and soda, which is likely the most profitable substance on earth.

 

It has long been my opinion that the buyer is the sole arbiter of whether something is priced properly. If the buyer believes he paid the right amount, then that's the right amount--what the seller paid for it is irrelevant. Obviously, if the buyer didn't think it was a fair price, he wouldn't buy. Sellers can likewise decide not to sell if they don't want to. Grownups have the right to make grownup decisions even if those decisions are sometimes grownup mistakes.

 

Just to make this post a little longer, I do have a conscience. A few years ago, a friend brought me a wonderful car, a car I had long expressed an interest in adding to my personal collection (the same song and dance many of you complain about, above). It was true, I really wanted the car and he suggested that I'd be able to afford it and he did indeed give me a number that was within reach. However, after doing some research into their values, I realized that the number he gave me was about 45% too low. I could not, in good conscience, buy the car for myself at the number he quoted, even though he's a grown man and an experienced hobbyist and I had no intention of reselling it. I told him as much, said that I couldn't afford it at its actual value, and eventually sold it to someone else for a market-correct price. I lost out on a car I really wanted, but I kept my friend's respect and my own integrity, which I felt was more valuable.

 

The car in question:

 

 

Now, would I have done this for a stranger? I'll be painfully honest and say I don't rightly know (especially since 99.8% of enthusiasts want too much for their cars, not too little).  But if I pay someone full asking price while simultaneously knowing it's not enough, is there even a crime? Everyone goes home happy, right?

 

Nevertheless, that question still keeps me up at night...

 

Well said Matt.  I don’t understand why anyone in the hobby would resent a dealer who is generally honest and trying to make a living from the buying and selling of “classic” cars.  

[1912Staver]

If I was ever going to buy a hobby car from a dealer { somewhat unlikely } Matt's website would probably be the first place I looked. 

 

[Reicholzheimer]

17 hours ago, Reicholzheimer said:

The Classic Flippers line, "I always wanted one of them".  

That's a line everyone on this forum has said whenever they bought an antique car.  I just bought a 1965 Mustang last year and had never ridden in one in my life. At 75 years old everything I buy is something I always wanted.  Seems like i heard it on Chasing Classic Cars Often!  

[edinmass]

Too many people pass up cars at dealers........when actually often time you can get an exceptional value. I buy the car and the condition. Broker/dealer/owner DOESN'T MATTER.

[Zimm63]

Only problem I have with flippers is that too many of them are tax cheats.   Profit on sale is taxable income.  

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, Zimm63 said:

Only problem I have with flippers is that too many of them are tax cheats.   Profit on sale is taxable income.  

And yet you can,t deduct your labor.......just sayin.......bob

[Larry Schramm]

On 7/28/2024 at 9:20 AM, Dandy Dave said:

Is it flipping if I buy something, Do some repairs on it, Have some fun with it. Get tired of it and want something different so sell it at what may seem a profit years later? Also, I need room for what is coming in the door next. All the while the dollar has devalued so did I actually make a profit? I ask myself this all the time. I'm a die hard collector. I also sometimes buy something and then sometimes sell it. Sometimes I pay too much. I did not mind as I cannot put a value on how much fun I had with it. I could have Drank, Drugged, or Gambled the money away like some do. I chose my drug of choice as old iron. Some I have made a profit on. Some I have been up side down in. I guess it was all right as I sure had fun doing it. I love an Auction. I once bought a rare and early automobile chassis for $27 from an estate of an old friend that past away. Spent some money on trying to get some parts for it to get it back together. Had about $300 in it when years later I decided to sell it as hope of putting it back together was slim. I sold it for $3200. With this I was able to buy some tools to help a lot with my other restorations. I did not intentionally screw anyone as I bought the item as the highest bidder the day I purchased it. It's a pretty thin line to walk at times as is it moral, or ethical? My Dad would have said it was just good business. 

 

Tell us about the road grader story and its travels.

Edited July 29 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

The OP's original topic is rhetorical and not worth the debate.  Worse, the topic title is clickbait.

 

"Flipping" a house or car or whatever is capitalism.  Buy low, sell high.

 

 

 

[Bhigdog]

5 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

   Buy low, sell high.

 

 

 

NOW he tells me!........bob

[Dandy Dave]

14 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Tell us about the road grader story and its travels.

How to make money backward on a Cat Model 12 gas powered grader. 🙃 It is here at the farm now as the property where it was sold. Drove it 18 mile to get it here. It was originally owned by the Town of Milan, NY. It was given to me by an old friend that had a very good excavating business. I got it running and drove it home a few miles to where I lived at the time. I used it on a neighbors drive way where I discovered the hard way that it had a broken differential housing. I pulled it completely apart and replaced it. $. Meanwhile the radiator was stollen $$. Got it running again. Decided to sell my equipment and had an auction. It sold cheep. Less than scrap price. A year or two later I went and bought it back as I had sellers remorse. $$$. The fellow that bought it was not doing anything with it. Finished fixing the brakes and some other stuff. Used it a little on the driveway. I would start it every once in a while and drive it. At least I can look at it and drive it once in a while. Oh. It is a Caterpillar Model 12 powered by a G4600 Gasoline Engine. Serial number is 6M-17. Only 56 were built this way. Also, I Had a front tire go flat driving it home. More $. How do I get through it? I just keep telling my self I'm having fun. 🤪

Edited July 30 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

10 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

How to make money backward. 🙃 It is here at the farm now as the property where it was sold. Drove it 18 mile to get it here.

 

 

 

Yes, but you did not say that you sold it at an auction and then determined that you really needed it and bought it back from the person that bought it at the auction.

[Dandy Dave]

14 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Yes, but you did not say that you sold it at an auction and then determined that you really needed it and bought it back from the person that bought it at the auction.

I edited it Larry. Look now. 😜

[Dandy Dave]

30 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Yes, but you did not say that you sold it at an auction and then determined that you really needed it and bought it back from the person that bought it at the auction.

Oh, And one must ask one's self, is one road grader enough? The answer is No. I also bought a 1946 Austin Western model 99 a few years back at an awesome price. In the process of getting a drive belt for the hydraulic pump. V belt is 7/8ths wide at the top and 39 inches OD around the pulleys. My local auto parts store could not get a belt that size. 

 

Edited July 30 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

beats flipping burgers to make someone else money

[MotiveLensPhoto]

On 7/27/2024 at 7:08 PM, 3macboys said:

When you think about it isn't every retail store a flipper? 

Therein lies a part of the problem: what is flipping? Buy or make something, improve it, or tie up capital for a time, etc., then sell it, hopefully for a profit is what most people think of. There is a dark side that caused some laws/work rules in real estate to be changed. A decade ago, a conspiracy of agents, lenders and appraisers in central Illinois were buying and selling properties, sometimes on the same day, for exorbitant mark-ups. The buyers were often mis-informed, and a number of people wound up in prison for it. And no, most properties had not been improved. What they were doing was illegal in that they were misrepresenting the properties. Same applies to vehicles. If you misrepresent the condition of the car, you're a fraud and you belong in jail.

[Dave Wells]

16 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

Oh, And one must ask one's self, is one road grader enough? The answer is No. I also bought a 1946 Austin Western model 99 a few years back at an awesome price. In the process of getting a drive belt for the hydraulic pump. V belt is 7/8ths wide at the top and 39 inches OD around the pulleys. My local auto parts store could not get a belt that size. 

 

 

Your poor wife must really have a sense of humor (or lives in another town).

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

6 hours ago, Dave Wells said:

 

Your poor wife must really have a sense of humor (or lives in another town).

 

 Shucks,  Dandy [ Speedo }  Dave was Dandy Dave BEFORE  Mrs.  Dandy Dave.  She knew what she was doing!   Didn't she?

 

  Ben

[zdillinger]

I'm not a seller but the only time I find it immoral is if you lie to get the deal done at a price lower than FMV. This, unfortunately, seems to be the stock in trade for flippers. Things like: "Oh, I always wanted one like this." or "I'll never sell this one!" or "My kids are going to love getting ice cream in this!" etc. Emotional manipulation to get more profit on the back end is sleezy AF.

 

All that said, I have nothing against someone buying a car for asking price and then making money on it, so long as no lies were told. It is the seller's responsibilty to know what he has. I would consider the profit made on such a sale to be the ROI on the years spent on automotive education and market knowledge. Sort of the old apocryphal tale of "I didn't charge you $10,000 for hitting it with a hammer, I charged you $10,000 for knowing where to hammer."

Edited July 31 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

7 hours ago, Dave Wells said:

 

Your poor wife must really have a sense of humor (or lives in another town).

My wife is an old farm gal. She wanted an old Rock Crusher more that a Dimond Ring so I bought her one. Guess I got the right Gal. 😁

[Hans1965]

I only once sold a classic car. Bought it for 5000 Eur in the Netherlands. Needed some TLC and I brought it back to life, new brakes, new clutch, gas tank sealed, one or two chrome pieces of the bumpers, new correct side mirror, emblems, the usual stuff. A few years further I advertised it at 7500 Eur with German roadworthy certificate (tuev) and all worked as it should. I think the price tag was very reasonable.  A guy came with his wife, he told me he is looking for such a model for quite a while and he wants to keep it some years. Asked me to go down in price repeatedly I reduced to 7 grand. Deal!

Regretted it the same day, looked for a few weeks on various databases for the same model. Maybe 4 to 5 weeks passed and he advertised the car that I had sold him for 14 grand. He didn't get them, the car was online for quite a while and I lost track months later. 

 

I had no problem him making money but I didn't like the lying and the begging for 500 bugs, if he was going to flip it anyway. This is about honesty and a little respect. Is that money worth it? I can only decide what I do, not what others do. 

[jp1gt]

It all depends on your perspective, nobody is evil except the crooks. I never buy a car to make money so flipping is not agreeable to me.

[Dave Wells]

11 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

My wife is an old farm gal. She wanted an old Rock Crusher more that a Dimond Ring so I bought her one. Guess I got the right Gal. 😁

 

I can understand... I worked for a division of that Ceder Rapids company  years ago. I know how warm and cuddly a rock crusher can be on a cold winter night.  ...and valuable, too!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Angelfish]

I went for a significant portion of my life calling them a Road Grater, like cheese.  Pretty similar really so I think it works. 
 

As an afterthought, if the operator is talented, it will make the road greater. 
 

 

Edited August 9 by Angelfish (see edit history)

[Hemi Joel]

As long as dishonesty, trickery, deceit, fraud, coercion, or elder abuse is not involved, I think flippery is just fine. It is the very premise of many businesses. Buy low, sell high. 

[theconvertibleguy]

They're free to do what they wish with their purchase. I'm free to not do business with anyone that does flipping. Same with real estate, which is rampant up here.

[ch1929]

I do get a kick out of some of the reality shows, when selling the car, the owner or family says to the buyer, well at least I know it's going to a good home! When in fact it is going to be flipped!

[ABear]

On 8/1/2024 at 12:04 AM, Hemi Joel said:

As long as dishonesty, trickery, deceit, fraud, coercion, or elder abuse is not involved, I think flippery is just fine. It is the very premise of many businesses. Buy low, sell high. 

There in lies the problem with a lot of "flippers", not all "flippers" are "Honest Abe's", the lure of scoring a quick buck often trumps "honesty and integrity", not just in the collector car world but anywhere one can turn a large profit quickly by buying and then immediately turning it around as a high profit sale.

 

A High School classmate showed me how that is done many yrs ago, find a rusted out hulk of a 1960's-1970's desirable car, chew the seller down to mere pennies then take the vehicle home and stuff every rust hole with wads of newspaper, tiger hair over, grind off excess and slap a "Macco" style spritz of new paint on it all within a week of owning it and put it up for sale.. He never had a problem scoring a quick $5K and the poor sap that bought the junk wouldn't be the wiser until all the tiger hair started to crack and fall out in a few yrs..

 

Have a brother that has worked for house flippers over the yrs, the short cuts the flippers insist on to save a few pennies are often unbelievable and the new owners won't know that the short cuts were taken for many yrs when that money saving short cut makes it's self known..

 

Flippers because they are not emotionally attached, often fix things on the cheap, take short cuts to save money, use substandard parts, methods and paint and only fix well enough to put lipstick on the pig.

 

Those are just a few examples and reasons why flippers tend to get a bad name pretty much like a new or used car salesman..