A "Brougham" is a ... ?

[Crusty Trucker]

 

Would someone please explain why this 1934 DeSoto Airflow, featured in the "not mine" cars for sale section of this forum, is called a "brougham"? Was it the factory designation or some specific feature of the car's body. Almost every auto manufacturer has offered a brougham over the years from open driver town cars to two door sport/luxury hard tops and compact sedans. (see list below)

 

Specifically regarding this '34 DeSoto, why is it a brougham and not a 2-door sedan, or a coach, or a coupe?  Very confusing...

 

Examples of model name usage

• Cadillac
  • Cadillac Brougham
  • Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
  • Cadillac Eldorado Brougham
  • Cadillac Sixty Special Brougham

• Oldsmobile
  • Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency Brougham
  • Oldsmobile 88 Royale Brougham
  • Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Brougham
  • Oldsmobile Toronado Brougham
• Pontiac
  • Pontiac Parisienne Brougham
  • Pontiac Bonneville Brougham
  • Pontiac Grand Prix Brougham

• Chevrolet
  • Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham
• Ford
  • Ford LTD Brougham
  • Ford Torino Brougham
• Mercury
  • Mercury Montego Brougham
  • Mercury Marquis Brougham
  • Mercury Park Lane Brougham

• • Nissan
  • Nissan Cedric Brougham
  • Nissan Gloria Brougham
• Chrysler
  • Chrysler New Yorker Brougham
• Dodge
  • Dodge Monaco Brougham
• Plymouth
  • Plymouth Valiant Brougham
• American Motors
  • AMC Ambassador Brougham
• Holden
  • Holden Brougham

[1935Packard]

As I understand it, brougham was originally just another word for coupe.  In effect, it was an English version instead of the French.

 

 

 

And here's wikipedia on it, with a picture of a horse-drawn brougham.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[maok]

I would have thought Chrysler/DeSoto would have described this as a 2 door sedan . The coupe version had a small dinky seats in the back and a hatch for the trunk where the spare tyre belong.

[oldford]

The 12th edition of Dyke's manual states that a Brougham is a limousine having no roof over the driver's seat.

 

Frank

[TAKerry]

My grandmother always drove a new Fleetwood Brougham Cadillac. I hear Brougham and thats the car I think of. Something big and elegant. Last thing on my mind is a coupe!

[Restorer32]

In 1957 and 1958 Cadillac produced a "Brougham" which was a 4 door sedan with a stainless roof and a wiring harness that has driven more than one restorer to drink.

 

[Walt G]

Descriptions of body styles over the decades have been changed/twisted/defined in many ways. Car manufacturers deemed some in one description ( to fit their sales profile), body and coach builders used a variation that was very close to what the carriage builders before them used ( because many car coach builders were former carriage builders). I have industry publications from the pre war era that give specific details of assorted body styles  , and they do differ from what the factory PR people used to flaunt their particular car to increase sales. An article on this would be good but would see car collectors point a finger and say " nope he is wrong because of yadda yadda yadda said so )  I did comment on this topic some time ago in a column I did for a collector car publication. There were /are 2 door and 4 door broughams , rear of body stops at assorted places - at the center of the rear fenders, beyond that etc. does it have a blind rear quarter panel above the belt line ? some do, some don't.   An article can be written but it would take some time and pages to cover all the body style variations - and that just pre WWII. Plus images to make the text more understandable would be needed. As seen here just the name brougham comes from the horse drawn era ( thank you gentlemen for that)

To me it is like asking someone to define the word classic or vintage , everyone has their own idea of what they have learned and will defend that to the end of the earth to make and justify that they are correct.

You think defining what a brougham is can be on going - try coupe : Business coupe, sport coupe, rumble seat coupe , 5 passenger coupe , 3 passenger coupe etc etc.

Yes, a article to make it clearer can be done but it would take some time and as mentioned images besides text. The AACA magazine does not have the room for this , even if it was spread out over several issues for several years.  As an author I love words, but also am an artist and know that "pictures" are what people can relate to better along side the text/copy. I know I do!  "Pit chaz" as Leo Gorcey and Huntz Hall of the Dead End Kids /Bowery Boys used to say - people like that - look at the Period Images topic /thread we have here to see what people want to look at , some old geezer on long island started that and thus gave a lot of work to the moderators..............

Edited August 31, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[54Coupe]

In the Hudson world, it was a two door sedan.

[paulrhd29nz]

29 minutes ago, 54Coupe said:

In the Hudson world, it was a two door sedan.

Correct , in other words, it’s a 4 door sedan interior ( rear legroom ) with only 2 doors that are longer for better access to the rear seats. 

[60FlatTop]

Being Irish in heritage I first thought the name had something to do with brogans, a term more familiar to me.

 

Of course I was young at the time and quite uncomfortable about mentioning a Volvo at the dinner table. That stuff did help me sort out my vocabulary though.

[Mark Huston]

The definition of the brougham automobile body style varies depending on the car manufacturer.   I don’t think the automobile industry agrees on very many definitions.  
 

Studebaker, during the mid twenty’s to early thirties, used the term brougham on there top of the line close coupled four door sedans with blind quarters.  
 

Here are a couple of pictures of my 1929 Studebaker President Brougham as an example.  
 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Mark Huston (see edit history)

[keiser31]

[TAKerry]

I have always thought of car types to the lowest denominator, but alas have been proven wrong so many times reading this forum. Some day I will know what to call what.

My original ideas

2 door car is a coupe

2 door car with a convertible top is a roadster

4 door car is a sedan. 

To me, it was that simple.

[28 Chrysler]

TAKerry

So a Falcon convertible would be a roadster to you ?  (roadster, 2 door, 2 seater, no side windows)

An Imperial 2 door would be a coupe ?  (2 door sedan)

[oldford]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

I have always thought of car types to the lowest denominator, but alas have been proven wrong so many times reading this forum. Some day I will know what to call what.

My original ideas

2 door car is a coupe

2 door car with a convertible top is a roadster

4 door car is a sedan. 

To me, it was that simple.

2 door car WITH NO BACK SEAT is a coupe

2 door car with a convertible top AND NO ROLL UP WINDOWS is a roadster

4 door car WITH FIXED TOP is a sedan.

 

Frank

[Twisted Shifter]

 

I don't even want to think about what cars are called "Victorias"...

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

And then there is my favorite "Brougham"!

 

 

FOUR door, oval rear side windows, dummy landau bars. Original era sales brochure called it a "Brougham".

 

I think the real answer to the OP's initial question is that "Brougham" is a fancy word that practically nobody in a hundred years has actually understood, that people wanting to advertise something for sale as a mode of transportation will love to use regardless of whether it is appropriate or not.

 

So there.

[edinmass]

There is no definitive definition. Different companies in different eras applied it as they saw fit. It is meaningless. 

[zepher]

30 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

And then there is my favorite "Brougham"!

 

 

FOUR door, oval rear side windows, dummy landau bars. Original era sales brochure called it a "Brougham".

 

I think the real answer to the OP's initial question is that "Brougham" is a fancy word that practically nobody in a hundred years has actually understood, that people wanting to advertise something for sale as a mode of transportation will love to use regardless of whether it is appropriate or not.

 

So there.

 

I hate to argue with you, being as you posted such a fine car, but this is what I think of when I see the word "brougham".

They certainly do look a lot alike.

 

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

There is no definitive definition. Different companies in different eras applied it as they saw fit. It is meaningless. 

This. 

 

Although most typically it seems applied to four-door club sedans.

[Pfeil]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

There is no definitive definition. Different companies in different eras applied it as they saw fit. It is meaningless. 

I agree completely. Here is a picture of mine.

 

 

The reason I bought my Oldsmobile Omega brougham over an Omega four-door sedan was it had the best interior. That's the only reason.

[edinmass]

Pierce Arrow used the term for a two door victoria, a four door club sedan with a custom body(Brunn), and a long wheelbase sedan without jump seats. No rhyme or reason. Just a fancy name to get an up charge. 

[edinmass]

My father drove a 1978 Chrysler Newport Brougham… 440 lean-burn POS. Leaked oil like a Harley. Big puffy leather seats. Lots of fond memories driving it to Hershey. We kept a spare reman computer in the trunk that fit into the air cleaner body.The good old days!

[wayne sheldon]

3 hours ago, zepher said:

I hate to argue with you, being as you posted such a fine car, but this is what I think of when I see the word "brougham".

They certainly do look a lot alike.

No argument here!

 

I still wonder if that is the Rickenbacker I saw up close probably a bit over fifty years ago. It was a nighttime tour, may or may not have been connected to the Santa Clara Valley Model T Ford Club. Nighttime tours were unusual, however there were a few to silent movie nights or Christmas lights tours. I remember that we were meeting up just about sunset, and me looking at that incredible four-door with the landau irons and oval windows!

 

If there is any "Brougham" that would beat out the 1926/'27 Buick oval window brougham"? It would be the Rickenbacker!

[8E45E]

23 hours ago, Walt G said:

Descriptions of body styles over the decades have been changed/twisted/defined in many ways. Car manufacturers deemed some in one description ( to fit their sales profile), body and coach builders used a variation that was very close to what the carriage builders before them used ( because many car coach builders were former carriage builders). I have industry publications from the pre war era that give specific details of assorted body styles  , and they do differ from what the factory PR people used to flaunt their particular car to increase sales. An article on this would be good but would see car collectors point a finger and say " nope he is wrong because of yadda yadda yadda said so )  I did comment on this topic some time ago in a column I did for a collector car publication. There were /are 2 door and 4 door broughams , rear of body stops at assorted places - at the center of the rear fenders, beyond that etc. does it have a blind rear quarter panel above the belt line ? some do, some don't.   An article can be written but it would take some time and pages to cover all the body style variations - and that just pre WWII. Plus images to make the text more understandable would be needed. As seen here just the name brougham comes from the horse drawn era ( thank you gentlemen for that)

To me it is like asking someone to define the word classic or vintage , everyone has their own idea of what they have learned and will defend that to the end of the earth to make and justify that they are correct.

You think defining what a brougham is can be on going - try coupe : Business coupe, sport coupe, rumble seat coupe , 5 passenger coupe , 3 passenger coupe etc etc.

Yes, a article to make it clearer can be done but it would take some time and as mentioned images besides text. The AACA magazine does not have the room for this , even if it was spread out over several issues for several years.  As an author I love words, but also am an artist and know that "pictures" are what people can relate to better along side the text/copy. I know I do!  "Pit chaz" as Leo Gorcey and Huntz Hall of the Dead End Kids /Bowery Boys used to say - people like that - look at the Period Images topic /thread we have here to see what people want to look at , some old geezer on long island started that and thus gave a lot of work to the moderators..............

Body nomenclature becomes even further muddied when one analyzes terms used across the pond.  What we call a 'business coupe' is often called a "Doctor's coupe" in the UK.  And in England, people drive 'saloons', not 'sedans' and if they have a large family, they might prefer an 'estate' or 'station wagon'.  If the like the sun, a 'drophead' is the car of choice for them.  Interesting enough, the U.K. did make a number of 'pillarless coupes', but none ever made a 'pillarless saloon', even though the Rover and Triumph made a few prototypes.   

 

Craig

[58L-Y8]

"Brougham" has been applied and misapplied to so many variations of two and four door sedan bodies, even convertibles, its largely meaningless.  Except to denote something upscale or luxurious compared to its comparable competitors.

[29StudiePrez]

16 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

And then there is my favorite "Brougham"!

 

 

FOUR door, oval rear side windows, dummy landau bars. Original era sales brochure called it a "Brougham".

 

I think the real answer to the OP's initial question is that "Brougham" is a fancy word that practically nobody in a hundred years has actually understood, that people wanting to advertise something for sale as a mode of transportation will love to use regardless of whether it is appropriate or not.

 

So there.

You have great taste, and I agree with you. I am fortunate enough to have one of these. Buick referred to their Brougham with the oval Window as an "Opera" windowed Brougham. In 1924 the Brougham that Buick originally manufactured in the beginning of the 1924 production year had the regular "D" shaped rear window which they called the "Model 51". At the very end of the production year, they added the "Opera Window" on an additional Brougham to the line up and called it a "Model 51a". They also added to the line up a Limousine and a town car which all featured the "Opera Window" ... all had a very limited production number. The "Opera Window" was so popular with it's styling, they completely dropped the rear D" Window look in 1925 and just went with the Opera Window for 1925, 26 and 27 models calling them just the Model 51. In 1928 they dropped the oval Window on the Brougham and went back with the rear "D" shaped window, then in 1929 completely dropped the Brougham entirely from the 1929 line. The only surviving 1924 "Model 51a" that I know of, is one thats about a 2hr drive into the Jungle outside Manila in the Philippines shipped there by an Ex-Patriot, and the one in my collection.

[motoringicons]

In Detroit, they are called Bro-ham. We gots a Bro-ham Cadlac.

[zepher]

3 hours ago, 29StudiePrez said:

You have great taste, and I agree with you. I am fortunate enough to have one of these. Buick referred to their Brougham with the oval Window as an "Opera" windowed Brougham. In 1924 the Brougham that Buick originally manufactured in the beginning of the 1924 production year had the regular "D" shaped rear window which they called the "Model 51". At the very end of the production year, they added the "Opera Window" on an additional Brougham to the line up and called it a "Model 51a". They also added to the line up a Limousine and a town car which all featured the "Opera Window" ... all had a very limited production number. The "Opera Window" was so popular with it's styling, they completely dropped the rear D" Window look in 1925 and just went with the Opera Window for 1925, 26 and 27 models calling them just the Model 51. In 1928 they dropped the oval Window on the Brougham and went back with the rear "D" shaped window, then in 1929 completely dropped the Brougham entirely from the 1929 line. The only surviving 1924 "Model 51a" that I know of, is one thats about a 2hr drive into the Jungle outside Manila in the Philippines shipped there by an Ex-Patriot, and the one in my collection.

 

Now that I look at the Buick, I can see that the opera window is straight up and down while the opera window on the Rickenbacker is tilted forward.

Also a slightly different belt line, but they look a lot alike.

Edited September 1, 2023 by zepher (see edit history)

[Pete O]

"A Brougham is a..."  marketing word that car companies tack onto any model to make you think you're getting a really fancy car.

[Avanti Bill]

This is a great resource.  Near the top in the center box you will see "resources" click on "coach building terminology" and you will find everything you ever wanted to know about coach building.

 

http://www.coachbuilt.com/ 

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, Pete O said:

"A Brougham is a..."  marketing word that car companies tack onto any model to make you think you're getting a really fancy car.

Not quite.

[nzcarnerd]

9 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Body nomenclature becomes even further muddied when one analyzes terms used across the pond.  What we call a 'business coupe' is often called a "Doctor's coupe" in the UK.  And in England, people drive 'saloons', not 'sedans' and if they have a large family, they might prefer an 'estate' or 'station wagon'.  If the like the sun, a 'drophead' is the car of choice for them.  Interesting enough, the U.K. did make a number of 'pillarless coupes', but none ever made a 'pillarless saloon', even though the Rover and Triumph made a few prototypes.   

 

Craig

The British don't appear to have made a pillarless sedan in the US sense as we know it but pre-WW2 there were a few proper pillarless saloons, with no pillar between front and rear doors. 

 

One was the Singer Airstream in 1934-35. Apparently only about 100 were built and one of the few survivors is here in NZ. Unfortunately I have not found a photo of one with its doors open.

 

 

 

Another maker of pillarless four doors was Lancia with its Ardea.

 

 

 

No doubt there are other examples.

[Reynard]

 

 

The late '50's Cadillac El Dorado Brougham was a "double pillarless" sedan. No 

"B" pillar at all, above or below the belt line.

 

[8E45E]

4 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

The British don't appear to have made a pillarless sedan in the US sense as we know it but pre-WW2 there were a few proper pillarless saloons, with no pillar between front and rear doors. 

 

One was the Singer Airstream in 1934-35. Apparently only about 100 were built and one of the few survivors is here in NZ. Unfortunately I have not found a photo of one with its doors open.

 

Another maker of pillarless four doors was Lancia with its Ardea.

 

No doubt there are other examples.

The mid-1980's Nissan Multi/Stanza minivan does not have a B-pillar, and may be the last such vehicle to qualify.  

 

"Pillarless" was/is a postwar term used for hardtop vehicles where the front and rear windows lower, without a B-pillar above the belt line.  When both windows are lowered, one can continuously run their hand from the A-pillar to the C-pillar along the top of the door(s) with no obstructions.   I believe the Hillman Californian was the first production hardtop/pillarless coupe from the U.K.

 

Craig

 

 

[4Hud]

Hudson changed the description of a Brougham over time, in the mid '20's it was a Biddle & Smart produced 4 door close coupled sedan with blind quarters. By the mid '30's it was a 2 door sedan or convertible. Bottom line, it's a carriage or car of some configuration

[marcapra]

In the Chrysler world at least a two door sedan and a Brougham are the same thing.  How is it different from a coupe?  A coupe has a short cab that curves down to a large trunk, whereas a two door sedan has a fast back roof just like the four door sedan.  The last broughams for MoPars was in 1948-49, as the new remodeled 49s dropped the low selling broughams in favor of the club coupe, which has a back seat and larger trunk.  

[nzcarnerd]

5 hours ago, 8E45E said:

The mid-1980's Nissan Multi/Stanza minivan does not have a B-pillar, and may be the last such vehicle to qualify.  

 

"Pillarless" was/is a postwar term used for hardtop vehicles where the front and rear windows lower, without a B-pillar above the belt line.  When both windows are lowered, one can continuously run their hand from the A-pillar to the C-pillar along the top of the door(s) with no obstructions.   I believe the Hillman Californian was the first production hardtop/pillarless coupe from the U.K.

 

Craig

 

 

I am quite familiar with 'pillarless' having owned a 1965 Pontiac Bonneville four door pillarless for nearly 50 years.

 

The Japanese did a few pillarless four doors, mainly Nissan in the 1980s and '90s. There were several Toyota four door models that look pillarless but actually have frameless windows and a discreet pillar.

 

Toyota did do some pillarless two doors for a few years. I have owned this 1980 Toyota Crown hardtop for many years. My son used it one day a few years ago to retrieve an earlier model Crown pillarless hardtop parts car. It looks a mess, but all of its shiny bits were there and have since proven useful to couple of restorations. 

 

 

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

The Japanese did a few pillarless four doors, mainly Nissan in the 1980s and '90s. There were several Toyota four door models that look pillarless but actually have frameless windows and a discreet pillar.

 

Toyota did do some pillarless two doors for a few years. I have owned this 1980 Toyota Crown hardtop for many years. 

Yes, there were a number of two door hardtops from Japan sold in North America from Toyota, Datsun, Mazda, Mitsubishi (as a Dodge Colt), and Subaru at various times throughout the 1960's/70's/80's.  I'm aware of the four-door hardtops that were sold only in Japan, and maybe markets like Australia and New Zealand, but never sold here in North America. 

 

Craig  

[Pfeil]

8 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

I am quite familiar with 'pillarless' having owned a 1965 Pontiac Bonneville four door pillarless for nearly 50 years.

 

The Japanese did a few pillarless four doors, mainly Nissan in the 1980s and '90s. There were several Toyota four door models that look pillarless but actually have frameless windows and a discreet pillar.

 

Toyota did do some pillarless two doors for a few years. I have owned this 1980 Toyota Crown hardtop for many years. My son used it one day a few years ago to retrieve an earlier model Crown pillarless hardtop parts car. It looks a mess, but all of its shiny bits were there and have since proven useful to couple of restorations. 

 

 

Name me one Datsun/Nissan model in the 70's-80's-90's that was a pillarless four door in U.S.A.. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Pfeil (see edit history)