Bloo Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 13 minutes ago, Lahti35 said: It's all got to be done anyway! This^^ It piles up. Don't save anything for later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 Matt.....looks good. I just ordered felt from McMaster Carr this week to do the new White as we sort and service the car. The rear felt seals were missing. It’s an interesting comparison from the car that sat 80 years, to the one that was “active in the hobby”. The 17 was a pleasure.......nothing had been touched for 100 years....the hobby car has been hacked at over the last 60 years. Some work was well done, much of it was not. Fortunately, we have overcome all the issues.........making a new air compressor because some on tossed it was a bummer......lots of work, and expense. I can’t drive a car that is incorrect or incomplete. The correct magneto and the compressor will cost in the five figures by the time they are on the car.........my only satisfaction is a correct and historically accurate preservation. The next caretaker will have a car twenty times better than I started with. My only hope is it continues to be driven and displayed long after I am gone. Keep at the Lincoln.........👍👍👍 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Zimmermann Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 9 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Some of the other work I did was to disassemble the front hubs and remove a lot of the extra grease I packed in there. It isn't necessary in the space between the bearings inside the hub, but since someone had packed it full I did the same. I do not believe that is needed so I cleaned it out and reassembled the front hubs again. Many years ago I did the same on one of my cars. Later, I had issues with the brakes. The excessive grease quantity expanded when warm/hot and went past the front wheel seals on the brake shoes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 3:09 AM, Roger Zimmermann said: Many years ago I did the same on one of my cars. Later, I had issues with the brakes. The excessive grease quantity expanded when warm/hot and went past the front wheel seals on the brake shoes... Grease that sits on a surface that has no moving parts in contact doesn't do anything anyway 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 4, 2021 Author Share Posted November 4, 2021 Loaded up and ready to go to Seme and Son tomorrow for valve job. I still have to strap it down but this '73 Ford F350 flatbed should have no problems carrying it. I was going to use the Audi Ute, but after seeing how far the big Ford dropped on its springs, I'm glad I didn't. That V12 is heavier than expected... 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 It must be the engine stand….LOL 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 The old Lincoln is made of pig iron.......a one ton is called for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 5, 2021 Author Share Posted November 5, 2021 Delivered the engine to Frank and successfully unloaded it at his shop. Stressful drive bouncing along in that old truck with the engine strapped on top, but no issues. Told Frank most of the story on the engine, including my discovery of the missing shim on the main cap, and that gave him pause. Either it was in there for a reason, installed by a competent machinist and removing it might be a problem, or it was hack work and the engine is likely full of other hack work (other than mine). We agreed we were going to focus on the valves first and foremost, but he started worrying that if we do all these other repairs, the day will come sooner rather than later when I have to tear it down again. I am obviously not happy about this, but he's not wrong. There's no way to know unless we either tear it apart now and rebuild it from scratch or put it together and run it until it breaks and then rebuild it from scratch. Neither is a palatable solution. He said if we rebuild the engine it's probably $20-25,000 and a year. Valves will take maybe a few weeks depending on how badly I borked them. I don't rightly know what to do. It's always bad news followed by worse news with this car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: He said if we rebuild the engine it's probably $20-25,000 and a year. Valves will take maybe a few weeks depending on how badly I borked them. I don't rightly know what to do. The valves that bent at starter motor cranking speed should not be overly involved, or very super expensive correction. Yes, it takes time to regrind the many seats on a 12 cylinder when replacing valves, but beyond that it is a simple job. However, that shim you found on the floor would definitely be a huge concern any person who has engine experience. Engine bearing systems are not some exotic mysterious issue. I would think he will rotate the engine on a stand and remove all caps and measure all crankshaft bearing clearances at a minimum. It's not rocket science to determine if that shim was needed, and exactly where it was if it was needed. I'm a spendthrift, but I know I would inspect the lost shim issue properly before I ran the engine again. IMO; ...As far as putting 20-25k more into an engine that had been cracked for whatever reason, had known overheat issues already (and likely ran a bit on the hotter side when new by it's design), in a car that you said you are way beyond any resale value before this new shop even got it,.... 20-25k more seems like a very bad road to even consider. Meaning just for one example, nobody could "guarantee 100%" if decades of rust corrosion has thinned the cylinder walls to where it may still run too hot in traffic even if you spend the 20+k. Me, I'd fix the valves, measure all crank clearances, fix the oil leak at the rear of crankshaft, and stop there. (He definitely will find where the shim was without any guessing) Then run it on the stand multiple times to gain confidence (with the stock radiator and fan) to see where you are at that point. 12 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 I agree with Frank! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95Cardinal Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 27 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: I agree with Frank! Ben I agree with Frank & Ben. Good plan, especially the recommendation to run it on the stand to make sure it's road-ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 30 minutes ago, mike6024 said: So as it is now that particular main bearing has about the correct clearance, but if the shim were put back in it would be too loose. If that is correct, it seems to imply other main bearings may be too loose and need shims removed to reduce the clearance. I'm disagreeing with your post, not to insult you, but rather trying to explain things for Matt's benefit. He has already been hammered by this engines many issues, and needs no further things to rethink every night in bed. (no joke intended) I took enough time to go back many pages to see if Matt measured the shim. Yes, he says it is .0015. Now I should have spent a lot more time to find out which caps he took off in total, and if he had said if the shim was the width for a rod or a main or if they are the same. I also should have looked in my manuals at the shop to find the real specs for bearing clearances on that engine. Rebuild specs would be tighter on the max clearance side, than the max acceptable clearance on a used engine/used bearing. When rebuilding a engine you normally do not shoot for max clearance specs. (Yes, a race motor is built with very loose clearances to reduce drag) Ok, if the shim is "One and a half Thousand", and only one shim was "lost", lets do some easy basic math using basic specs. The specs for clearances are different for engine RE-build, than the "max wear limits" of a used engine. Let's say the combined specs show 1.5 to maybe 3 thousandth ". If we forget to put just one 1.5 shim on one side of a cap, the actually clearance will change roughly by half of that shim. So, as we should know, when measuring for far less than one thousandth of clearance difference, that will be subject to discrepancies on a recently run engine with oil layers, perhaps some particles under the cap ends, etc....>> when using Plastigage as a tool. If we assume the used engine clearances were more towards halfway or to the bigger end of specs, that 3/4 of a thousandth "tightening" of one bearing will not change anything in the big picture. So, just because one super thin shim missing on one journal and still reads OK by Plastigage, that simply does not mean the rest were too loose, and does not mean the other bearings were not within the published "wear limits" of a used engine. The one with missing shim?....It certainly could not be tight enough to burn that bearing on his test stand. >>> I do have to eat my earlier words about the new shop being able to "know" where the shim was, as I did not take time to find out how thin it was. But, the shop knows about that shim, I rest assured they will definitely do a very good job at checking clearance on each main and rod journal. When a shop knows a shim is missing and what size/thickness it was, they will do a thorough job on checking specs. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 1 hour ago, F&J said: I'm disagreeing with your post, not to insult you, but rather trying to explain things for Matt's benefit. He has already been hammered by this engines many issues, and needs no further things to rethink every night in bed. (no joke intended) I took enough time to go back many pages to see if Matt measured the shim. Yes, he says it is .0015. Now I should have spent a lot more time to find out which caps he took off in total, and if he had said if the shim was the width for a rod or a main or if they are the same. I also should have looked in my manuals at the shop to find the real specs for bearing clearances on that engine. Rebuild specs would be tighter on the max clearance side, than the max acceptable clearance on a used engine/used bearing. When rebuilding a engine you normally do not shoot for max clearance specs. (Yes, a race motor is built with very loose clearances to reduce drag) Ok, if the shim is "One and a half Thousand", and only one shim was "lost", lets do some easy basic math using basic specs. The specs for clearances are different for engine RE-build, than the "max wear limits" of a used engine. Let's say the combined specs show 1.5 to maybe 3 thousandth ". If we forget to put just one 1.5 shim on one side of a cap, the actually clearance will change roughly by half of that shim. So, as we should know, when measuring for far less than one thousandth of clearance difference, that will be subject to discrepancies on a recently run engine with oil layers, perhaps some particles under the cap ends, etc....>> when using Plastigage as a tool. If we assume the used engine clearances were more towards halfway or to the bigger end of specs, that 3/4 of a thousandth "tightening" of one bearing will not change anything in the big picture. So, just because one super thin shim missing on one journal and still reads OK by Plastigage, that simply does not mean the rest were too loose, and does not mean the other bearings were not within the published "wear limits" of a used engine. The one with missing shim?....It certainly could not be tight enough to burn that bearing on his test stand. >>> I do have to eat my earlier words about the new shop being able to "know" where the shim was, as I did not take time to find out how thin it was. But, the shop knows about that shim, I rest assured they will definitely do a very good job at checking clearance on each main and rod journal. When a shop knows a shim is missing and what size/thickness it was, they will do a thorough job on checking specs. 1 minute ago, mike6024 said: 0.015 is not 1.5 thousandths. Was that a typo? Thanks for the great exchange of information here, guys. The uncertainty that I'm feeling comes from the fact that the bearing checked out fine after removing the shim. Either it was much too big (the shim is actually .015" or fifteen thousandths, not 1.5), or it didn't come from the place I thought it did, or I screwed up the measurement. I don't trust anything I've done at this point. I found it curious that all the shims were on one side of the main bearing cap (this was a main bearing, not a rod bearing). Taking out a 15 thousandths shim from one side of the bearing cap should have closed it up by roughly 7 thousandths, but I can't imagine that anyone would have assembled an engine with that much clearance on a main bearing. So what does that tell me? Well, I don't rightly know. Plasti-gauge is pretty hard to screw up. Did I make a mistake anyway? I think @F&J has the right idea--I'm going to have the machine shop fix the valves and then open up the bottom end and double-check the clearances. The front and rear mains are very hard to disassemble and I think I'll leave those alone, but #2 (which I opened up) and #3 can be easily measured and double-checked. I'll give him the shim and if it needs to go back in there, it will. If not, it won't. I'll let the expert figure it out--it's what he does for a living. But the fact that it ran fine without the shim suggests that everything is probably OK. Probably. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, mike6024 said: 0.015 is not 1.5 thousandths. Was that a typo? I did assume typo for one reason. If you ended up then tightening that rod OR main cap 7.5 thou with a 15 thou shim gone, I would think the engine would be really stuck when tightened. If Matt replies that it's not a typo, a bunch of us will be stumped. Also meaning if a single rod was previously as loose as 7.5 +, it should have been pounding. A single main that loose would not pound IMO. You do bring up something to think about though, if we went back to each post on his changing oil pressure issues: ...let's say if somebody messed up badly in the distant past with one main shimmed that loose, oil pressure would be very low, but then again, what are the odds that the shim just happened to be from that one super loose main. IDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 Matt replied a second before I did. More to think about. And one more question for Matt: was the shim on the floor exactly the same material and shape as other bearing shims? I hope you say no as it could be from someplace else; (had it maybe been used as an "improvised" washer from a bolt on some parts you took off when the stand was on the lift?) Think outside the box on this, rather than be convinced that it "must" have come from a bearing cap. I had earlier today thought that maybe a spare shim was left in the oil pan on last rebuild, but that made no sense as it was on the floor, not the pan. I then wondered if a spare shim was stuck someplace and pulling the pan let it fall out from where it was stuck. That is a far stretch too. One very odd thought, was it a spare bearing shim "saved" under an oil pan bolt in case it was needed later? Grabbing at straws here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 12 minutes ago, F&J said: Matt replied a second before I did. More to think about. And one more question for Matt: was the shim on the floor exactly the same material and shape as other bearing shims? I hope you say no as it could be from someplace else; (had it maybe been used as an "improvised" washer from a bolt on some parts you took off when the stand was on the lift?) Think outside the box on this, rather than be convinced that it "must" have come from a bearing cap. I had earlier today thought that maybe a spare shim was left in the oil pan on last rebuild, but that made no sense as it was on the floor, not the pan. I then wondered if a spare shim was stuck someplace and pulling the pan let it fall out from where it was stuck. That is a far stretch too. One very odd thought, was it a spare bearing shim "saved" under an oil pan bolt in case it was needed later? Grabbing at straws here. I just had this exact brainstorming conversation with my wife, who suggested maybe the shim was already in the oil pan. However, I didn't find it in the oil pan nor did it fall out when I removed the pan. It is the exact same size, shape, and material as the other shims, but maybe a different thickness. I had the oil pan off twice before I took it off a third time to check the bearings, including the first time when I cleaned it out. I found the shim on the edge of the wooden pallet, exactly where I might have put it if it slipped off, and I think I recall that there was a total of three shims and two remained in place. I don't specifically remember this one coming off or putting it aside, but it's certainly something I might have done since I was so focused on not letting the bearing fall out (I was working overhead with the engine on my lift). So it's very unlikely that it was already in the pan floating around loose or anchored somewhere else just in case. The most likely explanation was that I screwed up and didn't put it back in. But with that in mind, how the heck are the clearances correct now? Your guess is as good as mine at this point. I don't trust my abilities anymore, so a screw-up on my part is not unreasonable. Best to have the machine shop guys verify everything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 29 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: The most likely explanation was that I screwed up and didn't put it back in. But with that in mind, how the heck are the clearances correct now? Correct, it seems impossible at 15 thou shim. But everyone here tried to find an explanation, and I guess we need to back off. Now that the shop also knows about that shim, they will sort it out. 34 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: I don't trust my abilities anymore, We all have battles we wish we could forget. You run a business that must come with iffy client stresses, and have homelife obligations, ....and then you get to work on your car when overtired and it's not exactly stress-free, including tying up the shop lift. The only other unrelated thing I thought of to tell the shop owner is the oil pump mounting bolt threads. I had an uneasy feeling back then about the way you described that issue about questioning the internal threads. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 The cavalcade of fail continues. You guys are probably sick of hearing about just how shiatty this car really is, but like an onion there's always a new layer. Today I figured I'd do something easy and painless: clean up the manifolds and get a coat of paint on them. So as I'm using the wire wheel to clean off the remnants of the Remflex gaskets I bumped into one of the intake manifold mounting studs... and it bent. What? I grabbed it and was able to wiggle it out of its hole with my bare hands. Turns out someone broke the stud off in the past, drilled it out, and realized too late that they drilled the hole too big. So to fix their screw-up, they filled the hole with more JB Weld and shoved the stud in there. Obviously the heat broke down the JB Weld and the stud just came right out. Nice, right? I suppose I need to source another set of exhaust manifolds given how chewed up that hole is--there's not enough meat left to cut any threads and even if there were, the stud would be too big. Guess I'll buy those expensive manifolds on eBay that I was hoping to avoid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Fan Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) Could you use a double ended stud? Ie a stud with two different sizes? Edited November 7, 2021 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 If there is enough material you could try a key locking insert. Mcmaster Carr has several styles and types. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) If there is enough material left to thread in a bigger size I'll be happy to make you a custom double ended stud that will fit. I take it that plug is to block of exhaust heat from the manifold to the carburetor. If so, it would not hurt to drill into the edge of the plug. That, of course, will fix it permanently in place but I don't see where that is a problem. The big end could have a really unusual thread - that is rarely a problem for me when making a one-off part. Based on our experiences, I'd have permanent second thoughts about buying a "restored" car. It's astonishing to me how much hack work has been done on great cars... Edited November 6, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 19 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: given how chewed up that hole is--there's not enough meat left to cut any threads and even if there were, the stud would be too big. I'm trying to see how "thick" the casting is. In other wording, the shiny threads on the stud makes it seem like the casting is 1/4" thick? If it is at least 1/4" depth of cast, new bigger threads should hold just fine, because JB once held it without leaking before. At almost a $1000 shipped for manifolds, why not wait for replies here on fixing yours? Yes, they do make studs with one end bigger. I assume yours is 3/8" and you'd then use one that has 7/16" coarse on big end, and slowly tap new threads. As there is a pipe plug blocking the old manifold heat hole, that plug will help in keeping the tap from breaking the metal web near that plug. If you cannot find the correct stepped stud sizes, make one on a lathe. Geez, I was just going to say that Joe could make one easy...then he posted. 1 minute ago, JV Puleo said: If there is enough material left to thread in a bigger size I'll be happy to make you a custom double ended stud that will fit. I take it that plug is to block of exhaust heat from the manifold to the carburetor. If so, it would not hurt to drill into the edge of the plug. That, of course, will fix it permanently in place but I don't see where that is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 Holy cow, I didn't even know these double-ended studs existed! The original threads are 5/16-18 in the manifold and 5/16-24 on top but maybe drilling the hole out to 3/8-16 would allow me to use one of these: I'll do some measuring tomorrow. Thanks for the tip, guys! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 They are commonly used for repair work - exactly the situation you are in. The only issue is finding one the right length with the right threads on both ends. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reo M Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 I am very sorry to hear more issues discovered relating to the engine and most sympathetic. However more than once reading these posts over the months I am puzzled by the recurring comments to assume the the unknown is good enough. After the January 2020 posting about the JB weld in the crankcase I would think that the decision would be simple. Either fix the one element, button it all up and sell it without having to factually misrepresent the car or fully disassemble and inspect and measure every single element of the engine. To be surprised about more instances of hack work is to deny the known facts. At this point I would recommend one ascertain the entire condition of the engine, fix what is needed and have certainty about the rest. This will mean that once you do succeed in reinstalling the engine you will be able to drive with confidence. Otherwise, after all of this work you will always have a concern in the back of your mind, as to whether it may break for some reason at any point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Reo M said: I am very sorry to hear more issues discovered relating to the engine and most sympathetic. However more than once reading these posts over the months I am puzzled by the recurring comments to assume the the unknown is good enough. After the January 2020 posting about the JB weld in the crankcase I would think that the decision would be simple. Either fix the one element, button it all up and sell it without having to factually misrepresent the car or fully disassemble and inspect and measure every single element of the engine. To be surprised about more instances of hack work is to deny the known facts. At this point I would recommend one ascertain the entire condition of the engine, fix what is needed and have certainty about the rest. This will mean that once you do succeed in reinstalling the engine you will be able to drive with confidence. Otherwise, after all of this work you will always have a concern in the back of your mind, as to whether it may break for some reason at any point in time. Well, you're not wrong. And as much as I'd like to have other options, I really don't. Put it back together and sell it? Sure, but where do I cut corners and still maintain that plausible deniability you mention? If I don't fix everything, I'm likely going to have to pay to fix it for someone else once he finds out what I knew and how bad it really is. And if I do fix everything why sell it? So that's not really a viable strategy. I'm not the dealer who sold it to me, I'm not OK with selling a misrepresented turd. I'd love to take it apart down to the molecular level and make sure everything is right. I'm already $52,000 and change into a $35,000 car, so it's not like I've been cutting corners. Saying the only smart thing to do is to disassemble everything and make sure it's right is easy--if you're not the guy writing the checks. I am trying hard to find a reasonable compromise between making it operational and reliable and not spending $150,000 restoring a low-value car. I'd like to not spend $25,000 rebuilding this engine, but, of course, that's the only way to be sure everything is right. It's also worth noting that when I drove the car, it drove really well (until it stopped running, but that was because of fuel system issues, then ignition system issues). It didn't exhibit symptoms of a hurt engine. No reason it can't be that again without a full rebuild. What's the right path forward? Spend a ridiculous amount of money and make it perfect? Spend half a ridiculous amount of money and make it adequate enough to sell at a huge loss and face potential future litigation over it? Give up and sell it as-is for little more than scrap value? There's no clear path forward, I'm just doing the best I can with the resources I have. I sold a high-quality, sorted, excellent Full Classic to finance this fiasco. I've burned through almost half of that money and still have a ton of question marks yet to address. You think that doesn't make me burn with anger every night before I fall asleep thinking about it? Tell me the right answer, because I just don't know what it might be. Edited November 6, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 Matt, I don't know the "right answer" but I think you just keep plugging away at it and eventually you will find that you have a car that you can drive and enjoy. When you realize you have actually beaten the car into submission and made it a reliable driver, you might actually enjoy putting some miles on it. It will never be a Buick Limited, but it might eventually become something that you will be able to enjoy specifically because of what a chore it was to make it a reliable car to drive. Making it a reliable car will be an accomplishment that you can be proud of. Hang in there. Eventually you will be able to look back on it. As time goes by, the pain will diminish. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: ....I'm not the dealer who sold it to me, I'm not OK with selling a misrepresented turd.... An extremely good point. I am asked, occasionally, about cars for sale. If the potential buyer really does not know his way around old cars, which is usually the case, and the car in question is not one well known to him or his close friends, I always recommend that he deal with a reputable dealer — one that will stand behind what he offers. Yes, you may pay a premium for that but the "value added" quality of having the car vetted by someone whose reputation is at stake is well worth it. You can be sure that if someone asks me about one of Matt's cars, I'll say "yes, he can be trusted." 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 I would be very reluctant to pay for a full engine rebuild on this, if that's what it comes to. The reason I was commenting on that missing shim that did not need to go back in, is that I think it means all the mains are loose. If removing a shim brings one in to spec for main bearing clearance, that means, I suspect, they were all very loose. So you will have all the main bearing clearances checked with the plasti-gage. If they are all way too loose then maybe that can be brought down by removing a shim from the others, or using thinner shims. You got good oil pressure when the new oil pump was installed. But I suspect it was putting out more volume than it should have needed to in order to achieve that pressure. If the bearing clearances were all reduced to be within spec, ie tightened up, then you would still get good oil pressure but with reduced volume (meaning lower oil flow rate). That's how I'd approach it anyway. Get the situation with the valves corrected. Check the crankshaft bearing clearances and see if they can be all brought to within spec. Beyond that you get into having the crankshaft ground, replacing pistons and rings if the compression it still low. Sounds overwhelming cost wise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bloom Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 Matt, I have enjoyed following along on this thread and getting educated in several different areas. I know the consensus here is "Press On", "You Can Do It", "Don't let the car beat you"...........Feel free to throw rocks at me and Matt I don't mean this as a discouragement, but I don't sense you are enjoying the twists and turns of this project anymore. That, along with the unknowns still in front of you, make me think one consideration is to stop. As quickly and painlessly as possible. Knowing you'll take a financial hit, but you'll stop the bleeding. We all think of "return on investment". The older I get, I think about that concept more related to time (vice money which was how I saw it in my younger years). Considering how this has gone up to this point, how many hours are still in front of you till this car is sorted out and being driven and enjoyed? Who knows? 500? 1,000? More than that? How much more money will it take to get there? Lots of unknowns. I'd love it if you were one more problem away from everything going smoothly and you wrap this up in short time with not much money put into it beyond where you are right now. That doesn't seem like the trajectory this is on. Put it together as quickly as you can. Donate it to a car museum that is a 501C3 and have them give you a generous estimate (considering what a grand classic it is). They will display it for all to enjoy and you take the tax write off (Lots of museum cars aren't running). This scenario will let you get rid of it without any qualms about omitting or misguiding a future owner about the condition of the car......And here is the best part of this......The financial pain will sting for a while, but you will no longer go to bed at night thinking about this car, frustrated throughout the day. You will stop sinking money into it with uncertainty about when the outlay of money will stop. Most importantly, the Time and Money that is still to be put into this car can be channeled into your wife, family, friends......things far more valuable than the Lincoln. For that matter, the time and money could be put into another car without the myriad of issues this one is presenting. Nothing is more important than your happiness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 The problem here is trying to find the 'knee' in the curve of value vs. sunk cost. That sweet spot is an ever moving target, as both the car's market value and the amount necessary to get it running and driving change over time (value driven by market changes and cost/investment increasing as additional issues are found). The fact is selling now would be as a 'project car' and the loss would be considerable, as Matt noted. I think the consensus opinion above of fixing the valves and verifying/re-shimming the bottom-end to get the motor running again makes sense. That at least offers the possibility of getting the car driveable again, which gets it out of the 'project car' category and would, if sold, recoup more of the sunk cost. On the other hand, it may turn out well enough to keep around for awhile... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 I'm not really averse to spending money (obviously), and I'm not worrying about the sunk cost fallacy, or even getting my "investment" back. This project is going to be a money loser no matter what happens from here. Yes, it would sting giving it away for scrap in its current condition and I'll admit that I would be pretty unhappy if I did that and then the next guy--inevitably--simply puts it back together and has a ball with it without any problems. Make no mistake, I like the car, or at least what it could be. I like how it looks, I like how it drives--the few times that I did drive it before it crapped out by the side of the road--and I do find myself spending an inordinate amount of time thinking about touring in it. I already have a Gear Vendors overdrive on the shelf waiting for it to be an operational car again. I have it booked for two big events next year celebrating the 100th anniversary of Lincoln. And honestly, I like the idea of owning a big, handsome, powerful V12-powered Full Classic. This is probably my only chance to do it. Meanwhile, I have purchased a step-down stud for the manifold that I hope will work, although I suspect it's too short. I have also been in touch with the seller of the manifolds on eBay and negotiated a discount so if I need them, they're there. They're a lot nicer than mine so maybe it would be worthwhile just to buy them and have them ceramic coated rather than trying to salvage my rough ones that still need hours of work. What's my time worth? I've learned that sometimes it's easier to spend money rather than to do a job I don't enjoy. Bear in mind that the heat may have warped my manifolds and one of the mounting ears already broke because of it. Replacement manifolds may very well solve multiple problems rather than forcing me to improvise (while simultaneously spending more money, albeit a bit less than the cost of the manifolds). Spending money is merely a means to an end and I plan to see this through to the end--I've come way too far to give up. It definitely isn't about getting my money back out of it. I just want the finish line to be within sight at this point, you know? It seems inconceivable that any car could be THIS screwed up on this many levels, doesn't it? It's like every job that someone ever undertook was done incorrectly, and not just incorrectly but as wrong as humanly possible. It's like they said, "What's the worst possible way to temporarily fix this that will cause the most headaches later?" I appreciate all the positive feedback and I'm just going to stay on target with the current plan: fix the valves and check the clearances on the bottom end. If the bottom end is way off (I don't believe it is), well, we'll figure that out when we come to it. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 (edited) Matt, if you feel comfortable with the price and condition of the ebay manifolds, get them. I would not get them ceramic coated though, chance of getting lost or broke... Just powder coat them. It will save you a lot of grief and we all know you have had more than your fair share. Keep with your plan!!! Edited November 7, 2021 by dalef62 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bloom Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 35 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: I'm not really averse to spending money (obviously), and I'm not worrying about the sunk cost fallacy, or even getting my "investment" back. This project is going to be a money loser no matter what happens from here. Yes, it would sting giving it away for scrap in its current condition and I'll admit that I would be pretty unhappy if I did that and then the next guy--inevitably--simply puts it back together and has a ball with it without any problems. Make no mistake, I like the car, or at least what it could be. I like how it looks, I like how it drives--the few times that I did drive it before it crapped out by the side of the road--and I do find myself spending an inordinate amount of time thinking about touring in it. I already have a Gear Vendors overdrive on the shelf waiting for it to be an operational car again. I have it booked for two big events next year celebrating the 100th anniversary of Lincoln. And honestly, I like the idea of owning a big, handsome, powerful V12-powered Full Classic. This is probably my only chance to do it. Meanwhile, I have purchased a step-down stud for the manifold that I hope will work, although I suspect it's too short. I have also been in touch with the seller of the manifolds on eBay and negotiated a discount so if I need them, they're there. They're a lot nicer than mine so maybe it would be worthwhile just to buy them and have them ceramic coated rather than trying to salvage my rough ones that still need hours of work. What's my time worth? I've learned that sometimes it's easier to spend money rather than to do a job I don't enjoy. Bear in mind that the heat may have warped my manifolds and one of the mounting ears already broke because of it. Replacement manifolds may very well solve multiple problems rather than forcing me to improvise (while simultaneously spending more money, albeit a bit less than the cost of the manifolds). Spending money is merely a means to an end and I plan to see this through to the end--I've come way too far to give up. It definitely isn't about getting my money back out of it. I just want the finish line to be within sight at this point, you know? It seems inconceivable that any car could be THIS screwed up on this many levels, doesn't it? It's like every job that someone ever undertook was done incorrectly, and not just incorrectly but as wrong as humanly possible. It's like they said, "What's the worst possible way to temporarily fix this that will cause the most headaches later?" I appreciate all the positive feedback and I'm just going to stay on target with the current plan: fix the valves and check the clearances on the bottom end. If the bottom end is way off (I don't believe it is), well, we'll figure that out when we come to it. Well then in spite of my suggestion that you cut your losses and move on, count me in as part of the silent support team behind you. I am impressed by your resolve to see it through and hope that it can still be enjoyable and that a “break through “ is just around the corner, you deserve it! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowriv Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 I feel for you Matt. I’ve been where you are more than once. I bought a rare car sight unseen from the other side of the country based on assurance that “it just needed a tune” and no rust. Both statements were bs. The car was a turd. I found myself in your situation, once I knew the motor was stuffed, I couldn’t sell it on in bits and I couldn’t just put it back together. So I had to keep going. Ultimately, it cost me over three times what I paid for it. I came to realise that having failed to immediately sell it before I knew what was wrong, I should have gone back to a bare shell and properly restored it, it wouldn’t have cost much more. The bastard fought me all the way. Finally, when finished, I sold it for half what I had in it. I liken this obsession of ours to standing on the edge of a cliff or riding a motorbike, if you do it often enough, sooner or later you will fall off or crash, its when, not if. I rationalise this by telling myself that I did much better on most of my other cars and that this is the price I pay for continuing to play. Last year just as the pandemic hit I bought an Alfa Sprint out of New York state. I have overcapitalised that too, but I love it so much I don’t care😀 This doesn’t help, I know, but we’ve all been here before, you will get through this, you will win and the end result, while maybe not financially enjoyable, will be good. All the best John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 Hey Matt, any updates on the engine? Mike 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmac Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 I keep thinking about a Lincoln of my own, in my case a yellow '62 Convertible, that probably could have kept pace with your car. I admire your perseverance and feel your pain here. I'm convinced that we've all been there at one point or another but our dreams are kept alive by thoughts of wafting along in the car we thought we were getting. That is the car we thought we were buying the moment we committed to buying the thing in the first place. We're with you Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 No updates from Frank at the machine shop. I'm not going to bother him; he knows what he's doing and that I want my engine back as soon as possible. No need to pester him--he's busy. When there's news, he'll call and I'll report it here. In the meantime, I've done a few things like acquire new exhaust manifolds (still haven't decided how to finish them, but I have no idea how someone managed to polish them) and I sent the intake manifolds and water pump outlets to the powdercoater (for the second time, since the first coat was destroyed by the heat). Happy Christmas, everyone. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 I like them polished. They will look great when installed. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingrudy Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 Just finished reading your post, I learned a lot about heat, pumps timing and most of all persistence. I believe that you are close to turning the corner on this car. Best of luck. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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