The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[dalef62]

Matt,

We all feel for you!  We know the pain you are going through with the beast from hell.  Just know that we are all feeling your pain too.  

Take a break from it, you will know when the time is right to go back to it, you are so close.  Sometimes the best solution is to let it alone for awhile and then come back to it refreshed and ready to tackle the next problem.

But just remember that a car should not make you miserable, if it does, get rid of it.  Life is too short to let it get to you.  

Take a break...

 

[prewarnut]

This is not making mental sense to me either. I can't see how half the valves (probably in both banks) are stuck/bent/burnt, etc. I can't see how re-torquing did anything. I then looked at your two photos of before and after re-adjusting the timing chain. It is hard to conclusively tell from the angle but I can't help un-see that I think the nub that contains the Woodroof key seems to not protrude as far as it did. I don't know the construction here so have no ability to say if it matters or is just optical illusion. Is this of any help?

 

[Matt Harwood]

After a long, unpleasant night of not sleeping, I have two theories:

 

One, the timing chain jumped.

 

Two, the compression tester somehow tweeted the valves and damaged them.

 

What else is there? Either way, I'm not much interested in tearing it apart yet again. I'm not even interested in Hershey anymore. This car has finally broken me.

[F&J]

4 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Two, the compression tester somehow tweeted the valves and damaged them.

This is the most logical of your guesses.  Easy to pull the plugs on the dead cylinders to see if there are "new" marks on the valve heads.  Or, measure down to valve head when it is open, and then measure the fitting length on the compression tester and compare.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I'm not even interested in Hershey anymore.

It might be more than just the car ruining your day...

(some people have building hidden stresses due to the never ending lies, ignorance and insanity of the last 18 months)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Actually the best next step might be to put it in the corner for a bit, prep for a successful Hershey.  Don't let it impact the meet and greet, and maybe selling, etc.  After Hershey dust settles have a fresh look at things.  Then, whatever the right next steps are, they will be based on some time to clear out the fog of anger and frustration that rarely leads to a good decision.  

[Walt G]

Go to Hershey ! It is the best place to get your spirits renewed and see thousands that are there for exactly the same reason.  The trip for me the last time Hershey was held was my confirmation that life goes on . ( this was after heart surgery, and then months in rehab, and pages of restrictions of what not to do - like climbing more then 3 steps) Things get better but it takes a lot of time . I want to see you at Hershey! Need to shake your hand in friendship to say hello.

Walt

Edited September 28, 2021 by Walt G (see edit history)

[dalef62]

Yes Matt, go to Hershey!  Where will you be located?  I want to come and say hello!

[alsancle]

Push the car in the corner and take a 1 month break from it.  Just don't let the break turn in to a year.  Or two, or three.  You get the idea.

 

If you go to Hershey I promise to come by and give you a hard time.

[Matt Harwood]

Valves are bent. Roman and I got the scope out and sure enough, there are impressions on the valve heads from the compression tester. Compression tester end also shows damage where the valves were hitting it. Probably doesn't take much force to bend them, especially at that angle.

 

Anyone know where I can buy new valves for a Lincoln K V12? Or how to replace them, for that matter? Or how to do a valve job on an assembled short block?

 

 

 

Wheee! Good thing time and money grow on trees, right?

[Walt G]

Good thing you found out ASAP - perhaps new valves with delivery to Hershey?

[Terry Harper]

I believe EGGE has them.

 

https://egge.com/kit/l414m34-40/

 

Also, if they can be removed, (I had to cut the last set of bent valves I worked on) a good machinist should be able to  straighten them.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Matt,  all it takes is an unlimited amount of time and money.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Don't let the SOB win, Matt.

  Any good performance shop can make valves to fit. 

 

  Ben

[F&J]

3 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

if they can be removed, (I had to cut the last set of bent valves I worked on) a good machinist should be able to  straighten them.

On a typical flathead engine, the valves that were bent by too long of a spark plug (or compression tester fitting) can be straightened in "some" cases without removal.

 

"Some", meaning the intake valves, not exhaust valves (that can get heat crystalized and break off later during driving). Intake valves simply won't break like that.

 

I believe that these valves are not bent very much at all because Matt said two cylinders gave inconsistent readings, and some never even hit the tester.. 

 

If you can get a beefy punch somewhat close to the center of a bent intake valve, then hit the punch very solidly with a hefty hammer. (you must do this only with the intake valve closed, and with the adjacent exhaust valve "open, or opening", to know you have valve-lash (AKA free-space) between intake valve tip and it's cam lobe).

 

Then spin the motor over by starter with your thumb in the plug hole to see if you are gaining compression. 

 

I've seen this done, and I've heard for decades of it being done back in the flathead days by oldtimers.  However, the more valves that are bent, the more chances of not being able to fix them all.

 

.

[AB-Buff]

4 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

I believe EGGE has them.

 

https://egge.com/kit/l414m34-40/

When I was looking into valves I checked with Egge. Their stems are slightly oversized so you will have to ream the guides if you buy them from them.

I should add I elected not to buy them from them, they show intakes and exhaust as being the same part number. The stock Lincoln valves, the exhaust are a different material and non-magnetic. The material I believe it is stellite. I have no idea what egge makes their valves out of. I’m not an egge fan

Edited September 28, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Matt, 

I suggest you go to Hershey. After you are home from Hershey, then you can eventually get back to this one and knock out the latest hurdles. You can do it!  

[Matt Harwood]

On 9/28/2021 at 10:21 AM, dalef62 said:

Yes Matt, go to Hershey!  Where will you be located?  I want to come and say hello!

 

23 hours ago, alsancle said:

Push the car in the corner and take a 1 month break from it.  Just don't let the break turn in to a year.  Or two, or three.  You get the idea.

 

If you go to Hershey I promise to come by and give you a hard time.

 

On 9/28/2021 at 10:16 AM, Walt G said:

Go to Hershey ! It is the best place to get your spirits renewed and see thousands that are there for exactly the same reason.  The trip for me the last time Hershey was held was my confirmation that life goes on . ( this was after heart surgery, and then months in rehab, and pages of restrictions of what not to do - like climbing more then 3 steps) Things get better but it takes a lot of time . I want to see you at Hershey! Need to shake your hand in friendship to say hello.

Walt

 

We'll be in our usual spots in the car corral, B67-B69, adjacent to the Orange field. If you're walking counter-clockwise around the corral loop, we're just past the crosswalk to the AACA HQ and Saturday show field. Look for the giant red 1937 Packard:

 

 

I very much look forward to seeing/meeting you all when we're there (Melanie, in particular, has a great deal of gratitude to share with many of you). Thank you for your support and encouragement, it really means a lot.

[edinmass]

I'll stop by with my bottle of Crown Royal, and we can ease our pain together. "People talk of my drinking, but seldom mention my thirst." 😎

[Matt Harwood]

My friend Frank Seme, who is the local go-to shop for Full Classic engine machine work, has agreed to take the V12 to replace the valves and do a full valve job. He can get it in sometime after Hershey and it'll take a few weeks to get it done (he's very short-handed apparently). I'll do the disassembly and reassembly, he'll just do the valve work. He'll source the valves, guides, springs, and whatever else it needs. I'm trying to look at this as a good thing, since now I'll know that the valvetrain is healthy--it's one of the few things I didn't touch when going through the engine (although I'm starting to doubt my skills and maybe me not touching things is good).

 

Once again, I can't shake the feeling that I'm a fool for being optimistic about this--what was it that Einstein said about doing the same thing and expecting different results?

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Roger Zimmermann]

With the little help of our friends, the life is good!

[edinmass]

Having had my ass kicked by multiple cars, I can tell you some cars just don’t want to get fixed. Stay the course, it will get better, and in the end, it’s a great car and platform. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

The Lincoln has eyeball, once sorted it will be a great car.  Keep at it.  Will look to say hi next week along with many others I imagine. 

[Ken_P]

10 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

(although I'm starting to doubt my skills and maybe me not touching things is good).

Been there myself, and a break and encouragement helped. 
 

I’ve seen the work you do - you’re no tractor mechanic! I’m sure you’ll get it sorted eventually.

 

Enjoy Hershey! I can’t escape work this year, but wishing you the best of times!

[39BuickEight]

All of the talent, determination, and honesty in this thread is what keeps me reading.  Matt, you clearly have all 3.  I don’t know the first thing about this car or these engines, other than what has transpired here.  I continue to read and follow intently.  

[Matt Harwood]

Loading up the trailer for Hershey and the UPS man stopped by with my new head gaskets. Managed to find some NOS steel gaskets rather than the repro copper ones. Hopefully they work better, although I didn't have any problems with the Olson gaskets I was using, and after what that engine went through, they probably weren't going to fail in the future. Cross one thing off my Hershey shopping list, although I'm still hoping to find a pair of horns (any type of 6V compact horn would be fine).

 

 

See you guys there!

[Matt Harwood]

Finally screwed myself together well enough to go back to work on this thing. I'm just taking it apart enough for Frank Seme to do a valve job and replace the valves, but we'll see what he decides needs to be done--I'm not going to dictate to him. If he says it needs a full rebuild, I guess we'll start the tab a-runnin'. Hopefully not and maybe just new valves will make it healthy. At this point, I just don't know and don't want to allow myself to hope, so I'm going to expect the worst.

 

Here's the post-mortem:

 

  

Removed the air silencer, carburetor, and upper intake manifold
first. None of the gaskets survived the heat, not the copper ones

and not the Remflex. This isn't really a surprise. On the plus side,

my crossover plugs seemed to keep the carburetor cool.

 

  

High-temperature paint on the manifolds turned to dust. I don't know

what I'm going to use to coat them now. I'm not too keen on shipping them

somewhere given how delicate they are. Maybe that paint will survive if

the manifolds aren't glowing red hot? One of the mounting ears on the end of

the passenger-side manifold broke off, presumably due to flexing from

the heat. Should I try to find a replacement manifold (sorry, no photo)?

 

Heads came off without a fight and I'm grateful that

every single head stud came out easily. Obviously 

they weren't in there very long, they were ARP

studs, and I used proper lubricant and sealant, but 

man, it was nerve-wracking as hell loosening those

acorn nuts.

 

  

Yep, them's some bent valves.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[ply33]

Wow! Could valve stems bend that much from just heat or did they make contact with something?

[Matt Harwood]

2 minutes ago, ply33 said:

Wow! Could valve stems bend that much from just heat or did they make contact with something?

 

The valves hit the compression tester fitting.

[ply33]

50 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

The valves hit the compression tester fitting.

Please accept my heartfelt apology for suggesting that you perform a compression test.

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, ply33 said:

Please accept my heartfelt apology for suggesting that you perform a compression test.

 

I'm not blaming anyone (especially not you) so don't worry. It's just frustrating that every time I try to do the right thing, the wrong result happens. 

[Laughing Coyote]

4 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

It's just frustrating that every time I try to do the right thing, the wrong result happens. 

That sounds a lot like my world lately.  You just try to do one simple task and it just goes down hill, and fast sometimes.  I guess as you get older the things you use to be able to do with style and grace just takes more thinking and taking more time to get the same results as them younger years.  Don't be hard on yourself.  You will get it.  

 

[Matt Harwood]

Went back out in the shop today because I'm itching for something to do. Too much more down time and I'll start that massive master bathroom remodel I've been threatening Melanie with for a few years. Sitting still isn't one of my better talents. I'm still waiting to hear from Frank Seme with a date to take the engine to him for a valve job, so I just have to find some busywork for now. 

 

Today, that busywork involved cleaning the manifolds, which were pretty badly cooked by the poorly timed engine. Some--but not all--of the Rustoleum high-heat paint fell off, but what remained was still firmly attached and reasonably glossy. I'm struggling with how best to restore the manifolds this time. I called two semi-local shops that do ceramic coatings on exhaust manifolds, but neither wanted to work on these manifolds with the porcelain. One quoted me $0.90 a minute to blast it off and the other said they had no idea how hard it would be and want to see the parts before they'll take on the job. Unfortunately, they're two hours away, so they're out of the running. I really don't want to mail the manifolds somewhere--too much can go wrong.

 

Regardless of what I decide to do, it appears that the best first step is to clean and strip the manifolds as well as I can. I threw one intake manifold and one exhaust manifold in my blast cabinet with some fresh rough grit media and had at it.

 

What I discovered is that any Rustoleum paint that survived 1500 degrees is virtually indestructible. I started with the intake manifold, which is just raw aluminum with the Rustoleum paint on it. The first time I stripped it a year ago, the paint practically flew off with just a brief pass from the sandblaster. This time? Well, this took about an hour:

 

It took quite a bit of effort to get the intake stripped 

down to bare aluminum again.

 

Then I went after the exhaust manifold. If the Rustoleum was tough, the porcelain was 10x more durable. Hmmm...  Here's another hour of blasting:

 

Sandblaster was able to remove most of the paint

and some of the porcelain, but did none of it

quickly or easily.

 

Then I got my die grinder out, put a 40-grit sanding

disc on it, and had it. Mediocre results.

 

Finally I tried an abrasive disc I had in my toolbox and it worked OK. Again, not great and still extremely time consuming, and boy was it messy. After another hour of various wheels and techniques, I was able to smooth out most of the cracked rough areas in the porcelain. However, stripping it to 100% bare metal is still going to take the better part of a lifetime. 

 

Abrasive disc on my die grinder was able to remove

the porcelain... sort of.

 

I decided that I'll have the intake manifolds powdercoated gloss black. They're easier to blast, they're not subject to the same heat as the exhaust manifolds, and since the Rustoleum isn't resistant to gasoline and powder is, it makes sense. I'll blast the other intake and have my local shop give them a coat of gloss black powder and call them done.

 

The exhaust manifolds present different challenges but given the difficulty (and potential cost) of removing all the porcelain, plus the relatively rough and pockmarked surface of the cast iron itself, I think I've decided that I'm going to try the Rustoleum paint again. It [mostly] survived and if the engine is running properly, it shouldn't see those insane temperatures again. 400-800 degrees is closer to normal for an internal combustion engine and I think it'll survive those temperatures. I'll use the abrasive disc to smooth the cracked areas in the porcelain and blend everything so that it will look even, then sandblast the entire manifold to give it some tooth for the paint to grab. I'll coat it like I did before: two coats of semi-gloss black and two coats of gloss clear, then cure it on the engine. I was pleased with the look, and like I said, if the manifolds didn't get red hot, I think it would have survived. If it fails again, well, then I'll write the big check to one of the companies who wanted to charge me almost a buck a minute to strip the parts and $400 per piece to coat them. The manifolds are easy enough to remove should it come to that again. 

 

And that's what I did to keep myself busy for a day.

 

[38Buick 80C]

19 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I decided that I'll have the intake manifolds powdercoated gloss black.

 

excellent choice you will be happy.

 

I had the exhaust manifolds powder coated too but it was a specific high heat coating good to 2300 or something like that. On the 80C i must have exceeded it as they got chalky and flaky but it was warrantied so they redid them. On the Charger they are still good. you might inquire about it. it  was only available in two colors matte black and a silverish color.

[maok]

Matt, with all that heat the manifolds have experienced, have you check how true they are?

[Matt Harwood]

16 hours ago, maok said:

Matt, with all that heat the manifolds have experienced, have you check how true they are?

 

I thought of that and they seem to be straight when I put a straight edge on the flanges, but given my track record with this engine, do you really think it's a good idea for me to send these out to have someone put a cutting tool on them? With my luck, they'll just snap in half or get lost or be punched full of holes. No, my "routine compression test" taught me to stop looking for new problems when I have plenty of old ones still to solve. 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Cadillac Fan]

7 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I thought of that and they seem to be straight when I put a straight edge on the flanges, but given my track record with this engine, do you really think it's a good idea for me to send these out to have someone put a cutting tool on them? With my luck, they'll just snap in half or get lost or be punched full of holes. No, my "routine compression test" taught me to stop looking for new problems when I have plenty of old ones still to solve. 

 

 

Especially if you are using remflex gaskets.  They will compensate for some variation in flatness.  

[Bloo]

Compensating for flatness with ANY gasket is asking for trouble, especially on exhaust manifolds. They need to slide around with expansion and contraction from heat. This motion tends to destroy thick gaskets in a hurry. If the manifolds aren't allowed to slide around, they will just break. Cast iron is very strong in compression but weak in tension, so if you are slightly bending them straight with bolt tension that can also cause them to break.

 

It's easy enough to check the flatness with a true straightedge (like a machinists rule) and some feeler gauges to see if anything needs to be done. If it's bad enough, you won't even need the feeler gauges.

[prewarnut]

9 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

It's easy enough to check the flatness with a true straightedge (like a machinists rule) and some feeler gauges to see if anything needs to be done. If it's bad enough, you won't even need the feeler gauges.

 

 

...or a granite inspection plate (but these get real heavy or expensive in that size).

[Matt Harwood]

I continue to feel foolish working on parts of the car that are not relevant to making it run again, but since I'm still waiting for the machine shop to give me a call and tell me to bring in the engine, I wanted to do something. That something this week was finishing the rear axle seals. You might recall a few months ago, I took all the hubs apart, greased the bearings, and bolted it all back together. All except the right rear hub, which needed a new inner seal. I finally found someone who could make me new felt seals and they showed up a few weeks ago. I don't like leaving things disassembled so I decided today would be the day I finish that job.

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) I had completely forgotten how to reassemble the axle. That meant I had to disassemble the driver's side to refresh my memory as to how it fit together. The good news is that while I was in there, I could replace those seals, too. That left rear axle was leaking somewhat when I got the car so hopefully these fresh seals will seal it up.

 

When I first got the car, there was obviously a problem

with the left rear axle seals...

 

Inner seal is a metal shell with a felt seal inside.
I pried out the old felt and worked the new felt

into the shell.

 

Once I had worked it into place, I soaked the assembly

in a small pan of motor oil to get the felt to compress

more easily.

 

I made a crude tool to let me slide the seal onto

the axle stub and let it compress a bit so it would be 

easier to install later when it was pressed into the

brake drum hub. I did this on both sides and let it

sit that way for a few hours while I worked on other things.

 

The middle seal fits around a metal sleeve that slides

into the hub assembly. These seals were actually in

pretty good condition but I figured as long as I was

in there, I should replace them.

 

    

The middle seal fits snugly inside the hub and seals the bearings from

the outside.

 

Then the outer seal slides into the axle hub
and compresses against the middle seal.
It turns out these new seals combined with 

the new middle seals were a bit too thick, so I

used the old outer seals figuring the middle seal

would do most of the work anyway.

 

Some of the other work I did was to disassemble the front hubs and remove a lot of the extra grease I packed in there. It isn't necessary in the space between the bearings inside the hub, but since someone had packed it full I did the same. I do not believe that is needed so I cleaned it out and reassembled the front hubs again. With the proper tool, each side took less than 10 minutes and now I'm confident it's properly lubricated and the bearing pre-load is correctly set. The book says that there should be only the barest detectable play in the bearings, so I tightened them to seat everything, then backed it off until I could just barely feel movement. 

 

Rear axle finished and ready to drive. I'll do a brake

adjustment after the car is back on the road and

has some miles under its wheels.

 

I guess I'll go back to working on the manifolds now while I wait for Frank Seme to free up some time to tackle the valves.

[Lahti35]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I continue to feel foolish working on parts of the car that are not relevant to making it run again

Nah, good on you. That's SOP in may garage, It's all got to be done anyway!