Guest richsever Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Would this be a good investment to purchase this car? I hope to find someone that knows about these cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Short answer- As an investment item for financial gain, unless it's free, no. If want to buy it as an investment in learning about automobiles and their design and operation, the joys and frustrations of ownership, making friends with a group of people passionate about old cars, then it's an excellent investment! Terry 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Nope. Great car for someone who wants a solid project or to clean it up and drive it like it is. These cars are awesome and deserving of saving, but not to buy and flip unless you get it for next to nothing, don't touch it, and sell it as a really nice project to someone who wants it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Welcome to the AACA forum. You ask a difficult question, is this car worth buying as an investment... Yes, it is. You will spend money on it, but you will invest in your future enjoyment of the old car hobby. You will buy new tires for it, clean it up, clean out fuel system, and hopefully get it running. That will cost a few thousand dollars, dollars you could have spent golfing or hunting or any of a thousand other pursuits, but you will have invested in your future, the enjoyment of driving the car down the road. There will be things wrong with the car that you didn't expect, and that will cost money, too. You might also meet some great mechanics who love keeping these type of cars on the road. There's an investment in friendship, and possibly one that you may treasure for life. Will there be challenges getting the car to the condition you wish? Absolutely, but there are people out there who love these things, and you'll meet them, make new friends, and they'll be jealous of the nice car you have, all the while admiring the fact you got it back on the road......an investment paying great dividends, new friends, and new places to go as you show and tour the car... Yes, it's not just a good investment, it's a GREAT investment, one that will pay dividends of new friends and places you'll go that can't be duplicated elsewhere. Others will talk of how much you'll spend, I'm discussing how much you'll get... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 People who ask this question shouldn't own old cars. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, joe_padavano said: People who ask this question shouldn't own old cars. I agree 100% 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Investment in money, not at all. There are virtually no cheap cars that are good monetary investments. Investment in getting into a fun hobby and learning about old cars, yes-as better stated by trimacar. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I bought a 49 Ford pick up for $1500 put another 7-8000 into it. Did all the work myself over 10 years when time and $$ allowed. Drove it twice and sold it. Lost 3500 to 4000 I also met a group of guys that still meet once or twice a year just to talk old trucks. They come from all over the country there are usually 15 of us or so. They still let me come with the 38 Studebaker. I wouldn’t hesitate to do it again to have the learning experience and new friends is (as they say in the commercial) PRICELESS! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Hey. HEY now ! EASY , boys ! Please take it easy on our new friend ! Welcome to AACA , Rich ! And thank you for sharing your incredibly well preserved original find with us. Don't worry , you have come to just the right place. Now for my $.02 worth , I agree with all the answers to your guestion except for those who question your question. Rich , just understand that from the perspective of some of the great people on this forum , these guys are monumental experts with vast experience , that you have asked a "too easy" question to answer. The answer is simple , but we need a bit more info from you. And you have got a good beginning on it , particularly with the pics you have posted so far. Now : this does depend on purchase price , your abilities , and the purpose to which you want to put the car. Give us a feeling for this , and more pics will help greatly. Rear seat , headliner , front and rear carpet , drivers side door upholstry , engine from several angles , indicated mileage , brake and gas pedal wear , any undercarriage possible , & etc. The reason is that this car is truely and unusually well kept from what we see. You will not have rust repair , bodywork , paint or chrome to do. You will not have to do expensive cracked steering wheel repair. Dash and instrument panel look to be pristine under the dust. Door and window handles look perfect , and the passengers door arm rest looks just fine. How is the drivers side ? And it will clean up spectacularly well if you follow our advice. Maybe the front seat bottom is the only upholstry necessity. Additionally , it is a highly desireable 2 door hardtop. Original , unrestored cars like this are rare , and carry a premium over similar examples. Please give me/us more info on yourself and your car. We will be delighted to take you through every step of putting this car on the road , or whatever your intentions are. Very helpful generous guys and gals here. I am very happy to have you one of us. I look forward to your response , and further opportunity to help. Again , it is a real pleasure to meet you here. I am excited and hope to see this car in all of its easily resurrected glory ! Your new forum friend , - Cadillac Carl P.S. IMPORTANT !!! IF THIS CAR HAS NOT BEEN STARTED IN QUITE SOME TIME , DO NOT EVEN THINK OF CRANKING THE ENGINE OVER WITHOUT SOME PRECAUTIONARY PREVENTATIVE MEASURES. AGAIN , NOT EVEN CRANK IT. YOU CAN DO EXPENSIVE DAMAGE TO THE VALVETRAIN UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING. LOTS OF GUYS HERE KNOW HOW TO EXACTLY WALK YOU THROUGH IT. IMPORTANT !!! Also , at some time soon we will want to transfer this thread to the proper Buick heading. No offense to anyone else , you are all above and beyond , but the Buick folk are the best of the best here in this camp. - CC Edited October 12, 2017 by C Carl Add P.S. (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Only if you love the car and want it to drive it no matter what. From a financial standpoint...........not so much................Bob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Smolinski Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, joe_padavano said: People who ask this question shouldn't own old cars. That's a rather snide remark. Maybe the guy needs a little direction like the others are giving him. Maybe he's new to the AACA. Maybe your snide remark just turned him off. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akstraw Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Buying as an investment is what you tell your parents and friends. You buy it for $1200, put ten grand into it, enjoy it for a few years, and sell it for $3500. "See, I made $2300!" 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 That Buick is a very nicely preserved car. And to the right person it is very attractive in the condition it is in right now. It could use a light clean up and mechanical go thru but these jobs are best left to the owner that has the experience with a time capsule like this. It is probably a quite low mile car but a good part of the charm is how original it is. The person who brings it back to life needs to be someone who will tread very lightly and carefully lest the originality be compromised. And if that happens quite a bit of the charm of this particular car will be lost. If you can buy it very cheap then do and resell it to someone who will give it the sort of expert attention it deserves. This will probably be the most profitable stage in your potential ownership. Otherwise much of the money a casual fix up costs probably won't be recovered and may actually somewhat hurt the value of this particular car. In any event this is not an extremely valuable car. Its biggest virtue is its originality. And being a 2 door HT is also nice to many. But it will never be worth the money of a convertible or woody. Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, Bhigdog said: Only if you love the car and want it to drive it no matter what. From a financial standpoint...........not so much................Bob Yup. Bob is even older than I am , and wiser than many of us together. Love. That is it. Your jaw will drop when this jem sparkles again. You WILL get a lot of love back from the love you lavish on this car. And if you enjoy your care of this car , and have to sell it some time , add up all the money you have spent on it , and you will probably count yourself far ahead for the experience and friends you have made. If that doesn't seem attractive to you , make yourself a "finders fee" , and let one of the Buick guys become your new best friend. Here is an old Cadillac I recently found , undriveable , got it running well , cleaned it up and put on the road. And I'm here to tell you , I DO mean ON THE ROAD ! Now if this doesn't look fun to you , find something else ! Love ! - CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, George Smolinski said: That's a rather snide remark. Maybe the guy needs a little direction like the others are giving him. Maybe he's new to the AACA. Maybe your snide remark just turned him off. By using the term "investment" the OP implied realizing a monetary gain. I think what Joe was saying, in a short form, is it's difficult to turn a profit in the "old car" business and damn near impossible for the unknowing to do so. Others have given the OP very good advice and done so gently. Good for them. OTH, sometimes a cold dose of reality will, in the long run, better serve the subject at hand.................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Again , Rich , Bob dead nails it ! I just wanted to add , "your" Buick will clean up better than my Cadillac. Your chrome is better than my nickel plating , your original paint is in better shape than my original paint. My interior is exquisite , I would love to see more pics of yours. - CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyler Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 ok. 1950 buick special, dynaflow, straight 8, all original, a survivor. a rare find and having owned a 51 buick special for many years i can tell you this is a great car. you will never make money on it,but most cars don't do anything except cost us money. if you do not really love this car, leave it to someone who does.i would buy this car in a second if i did not already have the car i love. the grill on this car was a one year only, and is famous for the over the bumper style. probably the only grill ever built like this. i hope you buy it and take good care of it. dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Richsever if you are reading this don't be discouraged. You have fallen in with a bunch of crusty old coots who know more about old cars than God but sometimes they get a little crotchety. You might want to rephrase your question and try again. The Buick looks like a well preserved gem and I wouldn't mind owning it myself at the right price. But don't think of it as an investment in the usual sense, like a stock certificate, or a pile of Krugerrands. You can have a lot of fun with old cars and end up with some valuable toys but don't expect to get back more than a fraction of what you spend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intimeold Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 As An Investment? Well one of the the pieces of this puzzle is missing: How Much are you investing? The really knowledgeable people on this forum, especially the Buick fans, have already given advice on this automobile. The people on this Forum, have decades of experience, listen to them. Tell us how much you need to take this car home; and lets see how the forum responds to that the price. Some have already given the best advice possible; Get it running, and ENJOY The Car. If you are only interested in it as an investment; you are missing the best part of owning a collectible automobile, or motorcycle to some of us. intimeold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 richsever, Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. It looks like you have found a great first antique car for a potential new antique automobile hobbyist. If you are looking to buy a car to flip for a profit, you might be disappointed. It would be a great car to clean up, do some basic maintenance, and enjoy. Please tell us more about your plans. You will find lots of people here who can help you with questions that you may have about the Buick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest richsever Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I'm thankful for all your comments. I will post some more detailed pics. The car is located in Utah. Their asking price is way too high at $9000. I don't restore cars but I'm grateful that I joined to hear the comments from those that are experienced. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithbrother Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) It woukd look good with a visor, don't ya think? Actually I like the car, very nice model, depends on the cost to buy it, but would make a great driver just cleaned up and made safe. I like your question. Just saw your post on price, a person would really want that piece, if they woukd pay that price, IMHO. Dale in Indy Edited October 13, 2017 by smithbrother (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Well the chrome on this Buick looks nice and it was stored indoors. It may be a good candidate to do the same that Chris did with his DeSoto. Buy it, get it running and otherwise fixed mechanically, enjoy it for a while then sell it overseas to a European buyer for a premium. Europeans often will pay more than an American, and pay shipping on top of that. I would think $3k for it as is, but that's just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 You are right $9000 is way too high. It is easy to underestimate how much it costs to put a car back on the road that needs "nothing". You could easily spend $5000 on brakes, tires, battery, exhaust, tuneup, complete fluid change, a few rad hoses, etc. without doing any major work and the car wouldn't look any different than it does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 door Buick 3 holler as an investment? Maybe. Gold is an investment, or is it? Seems to be today, but if you bought gold back when silver hit $50 an ounce, you sat on that gold a long time before it was again worth what you paid and the price of silver is still less than it's 1970's high. No investment is guaranteed to be worth more than you paid today when you want, or need to divest. When the market is declining, precious metals are easier to sell than precious cars so cars are more like investing in art than investing in gold. With art and old cars you always get your money's worth when you buy what you like and enjoy what you have. If it goes up in value so much the better, if not you got to enjoy what you had while you had it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Is your garage as large as the one the Buick is in now? If so it may be a good investment only if you can flip it in a month or so. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex98thdrill Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 For $9,000 you could probably buy a different car in better shape that was operable. I think the only thing that would ever get me to spend $9,000 was if that car was something that I was looking for. If I wanted that particular year, model and color I'd go for it, but if I had no preference in cars and wanted something I could drive and enjoy I'd look elsewhere. Most of us all know someone who is older, has a couple of old cars who is looking to downsize. I'd get involved in one of the local clubs and get to know the people who are in it. I'm sure if you do you'll find a member who is looking to downsize their collection and looking to find a good home for one of their old cars that needs to get sold due to health issues, money issues, etc. Three years ago I had a gentleman GIVE me a vehicle that I have since restored. The only time I've ever bought a car and made money is if I got into it cheap and flipped it. Whether it was restored or unrestored, it was a case of where we bought it, flipped it, and didn't touch it. At $9,000 that car isn't flippable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) I found a web site that told me the rate of return on buying an old cars.. It would tell the percent return for that make and model.. The sad thing is if you wait 3 to 5 years.. maybe the market will be full of cars for sale .. and the price will go down.. I posted this in the past.. 86% of all the cars owned that are antique. The owners are 65 years old or older.. I found out the hard way I inherit some china from my dad . It was worth 1200.. today I am lucky to get 100.00. So I just kept it and enjoy it.. If you want a car for an investment do your home work.. If you want an old car.. Just buy one.. It will not make you any money.. Edited October 13, 2017 by nick8086 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 The only way to make a sure profit on an old car is to buy it cheap, shove it into a barn, wait 20 years minimum and don"t spend a dime on it. After 20 years pull it out and sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I have paid too much for cars................. but only because I wtd them and dont care. I have made spare money on selling the leftover parts from my projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 44 minutes ago, mercer09 said: I have paid too much for cars................. but only because I wtd them and dont care. I have made spare money on selling the leftover parts from my projects. This is me minus the spare money part. I like the Buick that the OP posted but a more reasonable price would be 3-4k. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Yep, if "investment" was the intended word then we saved you a bunch of money! The best way to break even is to buy something you can drive around and enjoy, and then sell it to someone who just loves it! To make money takes a bit more skill and luck. Buy cheap sell at market. Not being married to a specific year/make/model means there are tons of great cars out there for that sorta money. To buy and turn for profit this Buick is quite a stretch IMO. Curious if you were/are looking for an investment, or if it's just a cool opportunity that came your way? Did you want a quick flip or open/wanting to enjoy the machine for a few years? We can probably offer good advise if you're looking for a way to enjoy the hobby while making a dollar or two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 13 hours ago, George Smolinski said: That's a rather snide remark. Maybe the guy needs a little direction like the others are giving him. Maybe he's new to the AACA. Maybe your snide remark just turned him off. The fact that it's a snide remark doesn't mean that it isn't true. There are far too many people whose only exposure to the old car hobby is watching cable "reality" shows like Ass Monkey Garage where they claim to make thousands of dollars buying old cars below market and flipping them at auction. You know that's not the real world, but it leads to the fantasy on the part of the uninitiated that any old car is an "investment". Considering the frequent complaints from members on this forum of being asked "what's it worth" by people, I think it's fair to say that the general public has a very skewed perspective on the old car hobby. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Restorer32 said: The only way to make a sure profit on an old car is to buy it cheap, shove it into a barn, wait 20 years minimum and don"t spend a dime on it. After 20 years pull it out and sell it. That is by no means a "sure profit". You need to familiarize yourself with the concept of net present value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SaddleRider Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Are you serious ? THINK ! Why was that car abandoned to rot ? Clearly, someone felt it had no value. What knowledge do you have that you belief is superior to the owner's evaluation ? If you do not have knowledge superior to the owner/caretakers of that derelict, may I suggest you listen to those in here who have tried to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 3 hours ago, joe_padavano said: The fact that it's a snide remark doesn't mean that it isn't true. There are far too many people whose only exposure to the old car hobby is watching cable "reality" shows like Ass Monkey Garage where they claim to make thousands of dollars buying old cars below market and flipping them at auction. You know that's not the real world, but it leads to the fantasy on the part of the uninitiated that any old car is an "investment". Considering the frequent complaints from members on this forum of being asked "what's it worth" by people, I think it's fair to say that the general public has a very skewed perspective on the old car hobby. I don't Joe made a snide comment, it was a realistic answer. An investment is different then making a fast few dollars on a flip. If the OP took 9K and placed it in a conservative financial investment for 5 years he will have over $12,000 at the end of the term. That car can sit in the same spot as it is now for 5 years and I feel he will be lucky to get the original purchase price of $9K. That car could easily consume anywhere between 5-10 to get it on the road as a safe driver. Tires alone are going to be around $1200, parts for the entire brake system. we still did not talk about the exhaust or a leaky dynaflow, or a cooling system problem. What if the engine is locked up or even worse a cracked block? So after initial purchase and repairs the buyer could easily have $15,000 in a car, and it would still look the same as it does now. I myself would love that Buick and I myself would over pay for it, just because there are less and less cars like that to be found. It appears to be a solid, straight, un-touched car and a great candidate for a restoration. I also am partial to unrestored cars but............ I know I would never see most of money back if I sold it. Then again I don't think ever purchased one of my collector with plans to sell it, like all of us here I do it for a hobby. The monetary return for the memories, friends, knowledge gained, experience, rewards, and even the places we visited I could not put a value on. I am sure many of you will agree with me. The OP asked a straight question and Joe gave a very straight, and very HONEST answer 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Is it possible to make a profit on this car? The good points based on what we can see: its stored inside it’s a 2 door paint looks ok and may be able to be buffed out chrome looks reasonable door panels look ok dash looks ok problems from what we know can see or can’t see cost of $9000 is too high based on our bias seats need to be redone needs tires don't know if it runs (or even has a complete engine) transmission condition is unknown is there rust in unseen areas does it have a clean title is all glass in good condition what is wiring like what is exhaust condition im sure others can add to this list but with this info I can’t see making a profit on a fast flip at that price or even a $5000 initial purchase price. It’s just too high If, as others have said, it is purchased as a learning experience or as a buy it, get it running and drive it for fun it may be worth while. But only if the fact you will most likely have an overall net loss is acceptable. The car may be worth more it five years but the value of the dollar will be lower and the cost to redo it five years from now will be higher. Just my opinion based on buying, restoring, using and then selling 6 or 7 old cars. Some more desired than this car and some less. Hope all of these Post help you out and don’t just confuse the matter. Have fun. Dave S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 6 hours ago, John348 said: That car could easily consume anywhere between 5-10 to get it on the road as a safe driver. ^^^THIS! I've had a very similar personal experience, though I did it with my eyes wide open. I bought a1967 Olds Delta 88 a year ago. This was a running, driving car when I got it (well, it's probably the first project car I ever bought that I actually drove onto and off the trailer!). I paid $3500 for this car. I now have about $10K into it and it's still not on the road (admittedly due in a large part to my lack of time to work on it). Knock on wood, the engine and trans should go back in within a couple of weeks. Note that this is by no means a restoration - this is work needed to make the car a safe and reliable daily driver. I had to completely replace every wear item in the suspension, steering, and brakes. I had to completely replace the exhaust. I had to rebuild most of the HVAC system due to unbelievable butchery by a previous owner. I bought new wheels and tires (OK, the aftermarket wheels and tires were a discretionary expense). I had to rebuild the motor which smoked badly. I had to rebuild the trans. I replaced nearly all of the cooling system. I had to replace most of the A/C system. I still have not gotten to the upholstery or paint, which is passable for a daily driver but not great. Those expenses will happen after the car is on the road. I'll be lucky if I can keep this under $15K, and that's doing every bit of work except the upholstery myself (yes, I even made the exhaust system from mandrel bends). When I'm done, this $15K investment (plus a lot of my time) will net me a solid $12K car (if I'm lucky). By the way, I wouldn't do anything differently... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 While the paint looks workable, it does almost look like surface rust on the top of the front fender in a large area, which means it may be past saving. atleast there. HArd to say without seeing it in person, but if the paint couldn't be saved, then it's a whole different game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex98thdrill Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 5 hours ago, joe_padavano said: admittedly due in a large part to my lack of time to work on it). Knock on wood, the engine and trans should go back in within a couple of weeks. Note that this is by no means a restoration - this is work needed to make the car a safe and reliable daily driver. I had to completely replace every wear item in the suspension, steering, and brakes. I had to completely replace the exhaust. I had to rebuild most of the HVAC system due to unbelievable butchery by a previous owner. I bought new wheels and tires (OK, the aftermarket wheels and tires were a discretionary expense). I had to rebuild the motor which smoked badly. I had to rebuild the trans. I replaced nearly all of the cooling system. I had to replace most of the A/C system. I still have not gotten to the upholstery or paint, which is passable for a daily driver but not great. Those expenses will happen after the car is on the road. I'll be lucky if I can keep this under $15K, and that's doing every bit of work except the upholstery myself (yes, I even made the exhaust system from mandrel bends). When I'm done, this $15K investment (plus a lot of my time) will net me a solid $12K car (if I'm lucky). By the way, I wouldn't do anything differently... Almost every vehicle we've ever restored we've found ourselves upside down on. None of our cars are investments, in the case of many it's a hobby, for others it's a passion, but in our case it's an addiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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