At what point are vehicles no longer considered to be "original"?

[76 Caddy]

I know this is a very broad question and will no doubt have many different answers.  I know the word "original" has been used and abused but I do have a reason for asking.  

I'm thinking about have some sign boards made for my Brougham and Seville.  The Brougham has been repainted once and the previous owner had the fuel injection removed and a carburetor put on it, so in the word "original" will not be used anywhere in the description.  The Seville however, I have a question about.  It is painted Georgian Silver and anyone around in the seventies remembers the bad silver paint that Ford, Chrysler and GM got.  The hood and deck lid have been repainted but not the sides as it still has the factory painted on accent stripes and only the rear bumper fillers have been replaced but the rest of the car is as delivered including the electronic fuel injection system (of course maintenance items have been replaced).  This car has been meticulously maintained by the previous owner(s) and except for a few blemishes from age looks almost new.  So, do I leave the word "original" completely out or say its 95% (or some number) original??

 

Thoughts and Opinions welcomed.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[Terry Bond]

How do you plan to use/show the cars?

Terry

 

[EmTee]

I'd probably say original color and leave it at that.  If someone asks you can always elaborate on what has or hasn't been repainted.

[76 Caddy]

5 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

How do you plan to use/show the ca

Terry

 

I was going to have sign boards made about the history of the cars for car shows and cruise ins but didn't want to say its "original" if a partial repaint makes it not so.

 

Tim

[tcslr]

Philosophy has the 'ship of Theseus' experiment.  Is the original wooden ship which has had every wooden component replaced but replaced exactly as the initial ship? ( over time) the same ship?  It is a very interesting discussion.

 

There is no concrete answer to it.

 

Is Notre Dame 'the original' since the fire to her roof?  You decide. 

[Gunsmoke]

This topic has been discussed so many times, and the consensus answer always seems the same. "A car is only really original once, the day it leaves the factory".

 

After that time, it gradually becomes a used car, with normal wearables replaced in short order (tires, wipers, bulbs, belts, plugs, etc) and eventually longer wearable stuff like engine rebuilds, wheels changed (wood spokes to wires), shocks, exhaust systems etc. Then comes the cosmetics, repaint, interior upholstery, and brightwork. Of course everyone of these short and longer term re-dos can as closely as possible match the manufacturers spec as car left factory, but regrettably it is never again "original".

 

So that is why I prefer (for largely original cars the term "Survivor", which implies the car has survived the rigors of decades of wear and tear, and remains largely as it was manufactured, including original paint and interior and mechanicals (although possible rebuilt engine, brakes etc).

 

Beyond the "Survivor" definition, any other level of re-built/restoration/modification, needs a thorough description, and it is always better in my experience to simply be honest, describe where possible how the car came from factory, and any consequential changes made, i.e. any parts replaced are like the original parts, including paint color, upholstery fabric, etc, or have been changed such as original color was Serge Blue, now it is Forest Green, original was brown leather, now grey broadcloth, original was wood spoke wheels, now wire spokes, original had 289CI engine, now 427CI, etc. My 2Cents worth. 

[TAKerry]

I used to like the term 'survivor' until someone pointed out that if it is physically still here, did it not survive? Hence every car on the show field whether restored or not is a 'survivor'. Made perfect sense to me. 

Personally I would not have a problem calling a car original if its in the 95% range. If it has 100% original paint then all the better. Again, having say 80%+ original paint I would be fine with that. Same for parts. Changing the configuration of the drivetrain, FI to carb is a grey area for me. Again if it were mine, I would say something to the effect of 'the only modification is a change from FI to Carb.'

From your description I would not hesitate to call either one 'original condition'. 

Again, only my opinion, But I think it is misleading when someone states a car as all original with one repaint. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

I would not call either car "original."

Even the one with partial repainting is not "original."

Your cars surely have other fine qualities, or interesting

facts, which you can use in your descriptions.

[CarNucopia]

I’d call it “mostly original (hood and trunk lid repainted)”

[76 Caddy]

Thanks for the suggestions

 

Tim

[28 Chrysler]

My original CJ7 has only been touched up a dozen times or so. New tail lights, fender flares broke off,winch added, and a duel battery setup.

[carbking]

I visited the Hershey car show/swap meet for the first time in 1973.

 

I listened in awe to a couple of long-beards, then maybe my current age, discussing this issue.

 

After one fairly long opine, the second said to the first "well, when they add air to the tires, the vehicle is no longer original!!!".

 

Possibly, in 50 years, definitions may (or may not) have changed.

 

Jon

[avgwarhawk]

For me the vehicle is by and large intact as received from the factory.  Bear in mind these cars were used as regular transportation. Knicks, dings and dents that received a respray of the affected area or touch up happens.  Entire respray takes away from the originality IMO.  Truly original cars(nothing touched) are few. 

[Fordy]

All the cells in our body die off and get replaced as we age so are we only original at birth? There's a question for the philosophers out there. At 70 or 80 are you still the same person as at 10 or 20? - I would think not. A car is only "original" the day it leaves the factory - everything after that alters its character in some way. 

I would use the descriptor "meticulously cared for" to describe what you have.

[pmhowe]

If it were my car and someone asked me the question, I would be happy to say "Yes, it's original, except for the hood and the deck lid, each of which has been repainted ." If I were a buyer, I would be thrilled to find a car in that condition. Then, of course, the verifications and the negotiations begin.

[bryankazmer]

7 hours ago, tcslr said:

 

 

Is Notre Dame 'the original' since the fire to her roof?  You decide. 

No because the spire was a later addition to the original

[Bryan G]

When asked, I tend to give the answer that my car is "nearly all stock". One of the most frequent questions I get from folks: "is that the original paint?". Well, it's the original color, and I think much of it may have been factory applied, but various areas I know were resprayed (probably before I was born.) Most folks don't want that long an answer...and wouldn't know if it was right, regardless of what you told them.

[MotiveLensPhoto]

5 hours ago, carbking said:

I visited the Hershey car show/swap meet for the first time in 1973.

 

I listened in awe to a couple of long-beards, then maybe my current age, discussing this issue.

 

After one fairly long opine, the second said to the first "well, when they add air to the tires, the vehicle is no longer original!!!".

 

Possibly, in 50 years, definitions may (or may not) have changed.

 

Jon

Exactly. Who has an antique car with original brakes, tires, oil, etc.? If the paint gets chipped do you leave it or fix it? It's a car. It's meant to be driven.

[Dandy Dave]

I got an old old very old Hammer. It belonged to Great Great Great Grandpa. The handle has been changed at least 10 times and the head at least three. 🤪🙃

Edited July 11, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[J.H.Boland]

I had this sign made for the Caballero. Tells all that passers-by need to know.

[61polara]

AACA was the first national car club to recognize the value of preserving unrestored cars in 1988 when it created the Historical Preservation of Original Features (HPOF) Class at our Nationals.  AACA has a well defined process for evaluating these cars and awarding HPOF badges and a higher level HPOF Original badge.  Deductions are taken for each major panel that is repainted and the same for interior seats and door panels.  Maintenance items can be replaced with original style parts.  The AACA HPOF evaluation team is available at all AACA Nationals for all cars registered in the HPOF class.  Having an AACA HPOF badge on your car will go much further in stating that your car is original than a board displayed with your car because it has been evaluated by an experienced team.

I see you are near Charleston, SC.  You should consider registering your car for the AACA Nationals in Charlotte next April and have it evaluated by our team.

[Gunsmoke]

I have a couple of old car friends, one has a 1934 Buick Club Sedan, 2nd owner, stunning car, low mileage, never been touched restoration wise, all original paint, interior, brightwork even engine has only ever seen routine maintenance. The other fellow has a circa 1929 Essex Sedan, 2nd owner, bought a few years ago with only 9000 miles on odometer, again all original paint including some wear on pin striping, original interior, brightwork and again only regular maintenance on engine/mechanicals. Both of these cars are widely known locally among "old car" people as genuinely "original", even if they have a few miles on them. At car shows I routinely see/hear other car owners (with new paint jobs, rebuilt engines, new chrome, etc etc) refer to their cars as "original", when parked near these 2 truly original cars. What can one say? It's the nature of the hobby, and does it really matter. People who know the difference, know the difference. People who don't know the difference or who don't care, well they just move on. 

 

Debating the topic does very little except to separate the people who know and care from the people who don't know or don't care. 

 

BTW, read this morning's Hemmings blog about the largely original rare 1916 Stutz Bearcat bought at Auction in 1996 for circa $200K. New owner sent to a specialist with directions to return the car to it's original condition as close as possible, largely by removing a poor 50-60 year old paint job taking it down to the original paint. Wonderful looking car, coming up for auction again soon, I expect it will bring a bundle. Will it be considered some definition of "original" (it has replaced Houk wires), time will tell.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

I have a 1976 Oldsmobile that I'm the original owner of.

When I began showing the car at Oldsmobile Club of America in its preservation class I was met with some opposition. The reason was because the hood and the two front doors were painted in the selling dealers body shop. So, the Oldsmobile club people told me it wasn't original paint. The problem was this car I special ordered and when it finally arrived at the dealer, I wouldn't take delivery because the two front doors had dents in them, and the hood had sand and bubbles in the paint in the two valleys down the sides. Back to the Olds club and up the chain of command who was in charge of shows or classes (can't really remember who) I was able to have OCA accept that because I had not taken delivery of the vehicle and that the dealer was acting as an emissary on behalf of the factory. The only thing I was required to do was carry a letter that I got from the head judge every time I entered an OCA show. I still have that letter.

[76 Caddy]

11 minutes ago, 61polara said:

AACA was the first national car club to recognize the value of preserving unrestored cars in 1988 when it created the Historical Preservation of Original Features (HPOF) Class at our Nationals.  AACA has a well defined process for evaluating these cars and awarding HPOF badges and a higher level HPOF Original badge.  Deductions are taken for each major panel that is repainted and the same for interior seats and door panels.  Maintenance items can be replaced with original style parts.  The AACA HPOF evaluation team is available at all AACA Nationals for all cars registered in the HPOF class.  Having an AACA HPOF badge on your car will go much further in stating that your car is original than a board displayed with your car because it has been evaluated by an experienced team.

I see you are near Charleston, SC.  You should consider registering your car for the AACA Nationals in Charlotte next April and have it evaluated by our team.

I live in Spartanburg which is 90 miles from Charlotte.  I have been to the AutoFair every year for the last 25 or so years.  I took the Seville in 2017 but it got entered in the Driver Participation Class instead of the HPOF by mistake and you can't change categories I believe for 5 years.  Might try next year.

 

Tim

[drhach]

2 hours ago, Pfeil said:

I have a 1976 Oldsmobile that I'm the original owner of.

When I began showing the car at Oldsmobile Club of America in its preservation class I was met with some opposition. The reason was because the hood and the two front doors were painted in the selling dealers body shop. So, the Oldsmobile club people told me it wasn't original paint. The problem was this car I special ordered and when it finally arrived at the dealer, I wouldn't take delivery because the two front doors had dents in them, and the hood had sand and bubbles in the paint in the two valleys down the sides. Back to the Olds club and up the chain of command who was in charge of shows or classes (can't really remember who) I was able to have OCA accept that because I had not taken delivery of the vehicle and that the dealer was acting as an emissary on behalf of the factory. The only thing I was required to do was carry a letter that I got from the head judge every time I entered an OCA show. I still have that letter.

Imagine if you'd accepted it as is and then tried to convince them (OCA) that it came from the factory that way :). 

[31Buick96S]

Original cars are an interesting subject. They are an invaluable resource for research and restoration of other vehicles. Thankfully, the originality ship sailed long ago on my cars. I’m not sure I could be trusted with a completely original car anyway 😂.

[JamesR]

On 7/10/2023 at 1:10 PM, 76 Caddy said:

....So, do I leave the word "original" completely out or say its 95% (or some number) original??

 

Thoughts and Opinions welcomed.

 

Is there a word limit on your sign board? Why not have it tell your prospective buyers what you just told us (in abbreviated form)? If you're looking for an enticing yet honest phrase to use for the heading of the board, you might consider "very original." I think that would be appropriate from what you describe, as most cars that old in good condition have been refurbished to one degree or another. Best wishes on your sale, and kudos to you for wanting to be honest with your prospective buyers.

[76 Caddy]

19 minutes ago, JamesR said:

 

Is there a word limit on your sign board? Why not have it tell your prospective buyers what you just told us (in abbreviated form)? If you're looking for an enticing yet honest phrase to use for the heading of the board, you might consider "very original." I think that would be appropriate from what you describe, as most cars that old in good condition have been refurbished to one degree or another. Best wishes on your sale, and kudos to you for wanting to be honest with your prospective buyers.

Oh, they ARE NOT for sale (well maybe after my funeral).  When at car shows/cruise ins, about the only question I get asked is "did you buy it new", to which I reply "no, being 10 at the time, my allowance wouldn't cover the monthly payment".  I just thought one of those sign boards I've seen on other vehicles might cause some to stop and engage in conversation.

 

Tim

Edited July 11, 2023 by 76 Caddy (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

3 hours ago, drhach said:

Imagine if you'd accepted it as is and then tried to convince them (OCA) that it came from the factory that way :). 

What I should have done was reject the car outright, but I was desperate having to wait twelve weeks, and it was a special-order car. It has an interior a brougham wasn't supposed to get, a transmission it wasn't supposed to get plus other options.

 Ironically, I worked for another manufacturer, a manufacturer who would have never let it past the factory, if it managed to leave the factory (which it wouldn't have) it would have never made it past distribution services.

 Not a pleasant experience, plus the dealer didn't want to fix it and even said "what do you want a Rolls Royce?" A visit to the zone office where I ordered it originally produced results. The dealer fixed it.

 Poor fit and finish on one side but on the other hand, the car has been the most trouble free I've ever owned. How many vehicles do you know that still have original rear brakes, fuel pump, alternator, P/S pump, steering, ball joints, links, and an engine, trans, rear end and a carburetor that have never been apart at now close to 120,000 miles and 47 years old. And no rust.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[metalbender]

might be better to say it has retained some original features such as interior, chrome , paint etc,

[60FlatTop]

Why does the guy with the most interest in the originality of my car always look like this?

 

His uncle had a Buick just like mine and he dreams of finding a Studebaker but only one with overdrive.

 

And, amazingly, they have been spawning for decades.

 

Just put the specs on the sign.

[Guest]

If it has been maintained it is original.  If it has been restored or modded that is what it is.  Maintenance is expected with every used car, once it is sold it is used.

[Dandy Dave]

10 hours ago, swab said:

If it has been maintained it is original.  If it has been restored or modded that is what it is.  Maintenance is expected with every used car, once it is sold it is used.

Once a New car is driven out of the Parking lot of a dealership it is used. Just doing this reduced the price by 1/3rd not to many years ago.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

Once a New car is driven out of the Parking lot of a dealership it is used. Just doing this reduced the price by 1/3rd not to many years ago.

Last year while driving thru FL I heard the radio advertising used car dealerships in their efforts to refill their lots offering to buy cars up to 10 years/100k for the base msrp of what the car sold for new!  Talk about desperation.

[Pete O]

Depends on how obsessive you want to be.  The word original means the first of something or the beginning of something.  So if you replace ANYTHING on the car that part is no longer original to the car.  You could go so far as saying that if you add air to the air that was in the tires when it left the factory it's no longer the original air in the tire.    But I think that most people believe "original" means more along the lines as being "as original".  So if you replace a spark plug with one that was just like the one that came from the factory, it is "as original".  If you replace a spark plug with a different brand than what came from the factory, even if it functions the same and looks similar, it's no longer  "as original".

[Ed Luddy]

We are talking about mass produced motor vehicles meant as transportation, not collectible Fabrege' Eggs or Van Gogh paintings. They are used cars. Yes a lot of them have achieved a monetary status far more expensive  than when new. I like to call my best one's "properly maintained" old cars. But I had to change the spark plugs and wires as well as tires and shocks on my very stock 1971 Cadillac. Did it devalue the car? Not to me. It made it improve in reliability and smoothness. The 80 yr old buyer of it was much happier when he took delivery of it and it no longer had a stumble or shake from old consumable parts.

The paint is the original factory applied lacquer that is very weak in spots, but that's up to him to decide and no one else's business. If all you are worried about is show field judging more power to ya.

I'd rather drive my cars.

[TAKerry]

Cars can be well driven and enjoyed and put on the show field as well. Thats how I treat mine. I would not hesitate one minute to drive OR put that Caddy in any show!

[76 Caddy]

Thanks for all the information.  I have my answer, and I won't be using the word "original".   

The cars are not for sale, and they will never be entered in a "judged" event, just for show only.

There's a guy in the CLC that makes signs for members and I'm just going to give him the facts and history of them and leave it at that.

 

Tim

[ply33]

If you take the position that even just filling the tires with new air makes it no longer original indicates to me very "black or white" thinking in a world that I see full of greys. Taken to the extreme, there was a microscopic amount of rubber worn off the tires when it was driven from the end of the assembly line to where ever it was loaded onto some sort of transport. So by the time it reached the boat, train or truck it was no longer original.

 

I took possession of my current daily driver from the new car dealer 18 months ago. Last winter a stone cracked the windshield and insurance replaced it with one supplied by the car's manufacturer. It has exactly the same specifications, markings, etc. as the original and probably made by the same OEM supplier as the original and the work was competently done. I bet even a factory assembly line inspector would not be able to detect that it has been replaced. More recently, a jacked up 4x4 pickup truck backed into the car and dinged up the center of the rear hatch. The body shop straightened the bent panel and replace a couple of plastic items with ones supplied from the car's manufacturer and did an excellent job of matching the paint. I cannot detect any difference from how the car was before the incident. But things have been replaced and/or repaired so it is no longer totally "original". Lets assume nothing else happens to the car and I end up selling it in a few years. After a few more owners and 25 years go by it ends up in the hands of a collector. That collector will have no way of knowing that the windshield has been replaced. Maybe with Carfax or equivalent they might be able to determine that minor body work was done. But maybe not. So to them the car would appear to be totally original and they will have no way of knowing it isn't.

 

I think a good working definition of "original" for an old car would be "well maintained without modifications from the original design". Of course we can now get into what is maintenance versus what is restoration. I know that if I remove a part to fix it, my goal is to bring that part back to factory specifications. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

I really appreciate a good story especially when it chronicals a car's survival. In my collection I own several never altered or repainted original cars. I always make it a quest to discover and document all of my cars' history. Whether one drives his car regularly, displays it or has it judged for points, that story needs to be told. Some people will get it some will never understand, but regardless it's important that the history be preserved and shared. 

 

The AACA seems to have been able to do a good job of giving a place for the survivor cars. Personally I would never know since the closest AACA chapter is 900 miles away. We just use a typed short history of the car(s) attached to one of the side windows. We know that the chances of one of these survivors ever getting a trophy is remote, but I hate seeing participants just walk by without even showing a passing interest. In the final analysis a car is what it has become. 99% of the siblings of a particular car are gone forever, those that remain are all survivors. Our cars can't speak for themselves. Our own egos need to be put aside and the real story needs to be told.  

Edited July 14, 2023 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)