The Unrestored Car Appreciation Thread

[1932 plymouth pb sedan]

So many cool cars on this thread, I guess it's time to jump on the bandwagon. My 32 Plymouth IMHO is the coolest looking unrestored that I came across a little over 10 years ago and decided to just do a mechanical restoration enough to get it on the road and safe to drive, let me tell you "It has been an absolute blast", the history, the searching for parts and just driving it. I have collected my extra parts, so I can drive it like I stole it.

[alsancle]

A forum member just bought this.   A largely original car with maybe one early repaint?

 

 

Here is the thread on cycle fendered Hupps if you haven't seen it:

 

 

 

[alsancle]

I think we spent a lot of time talking about this Lincoln KA a few years ago.  Unrestored, but probably needing some (or maybe a lot) restoration.

[arcticbuicks]

Amazing car .....what a fragile rad cap ornament !

[alsancle]

This Mercedes 320 Cab A is the only known example of this body on the long wheelbase with the V-windshield and the special roadster fenders.  I really wanted it until Manny told me the price.   It is in a huge collection in the Mid west.   Largely original.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

3 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

Amazing car .....what a fragile rad cap ornament !

 

If you are not familiar with the 32/33 Hupp check out that thread I linked.  Very cool and interesting styling.  And I agree,  amazing that ornament lasted all these years.

[alsancle]

The story behind this car is pretty amazing.  John "Hawkeye" Hawkinson made a down payment on this in 1959 and then for ever bit of money he gave the seller he could take a part the car.  So it moved from the seller to the buyer piece by piece.

 

If you see it in person it is amazing.  Currently with a lot of other untouched cars in a large collection in NJ.

 

I took the picture at the Gooding auction in Monterey a few years ago.

[TAKerry]

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

The story behind this car is pretty amazing.  John "Hawkeye" Hawkinson made a down payment on this in 1959 and then for ever bit of money he gave the seller he could take a part the car.  So it moved from the seller to the buyer piece by piece.

 

If you see it in person it is amazing.  Currently with a lot of other untouched cars in a large collection in NJ.

 

I took the picture at the Gooding auction in Monterey a few years ago.

Pardon my ignorance but what is it?

Interesting story.

[alsancle]

10 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

Pardon my ignorance but what is it?

Interesting story.

Sorry.  It is an AK Minerva.  Something like a 400 in.³ six cylinder sleeve valve engine.

[Walt G]

I have seen that Minerva convertible sedan in person, even sat in it at the invitation of the current owner who is a real enthusiast of Minerva automobiles and a great guy - perfect match of owner and car.  I have been interested in the styling and history of the Minerva cars for decades. Love the look !, copied by Moon Motor Cars of St. Louis for their Diana automobiles they built. I have a fairly decent file of original Minerva color sales literature  which is about as close as i will ever get to owning one, and the Minerva sales branch(es) in the USA were very active to promote the cars here to the elite crowd that were invited to and attended the annual custom body salons held in NY, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles. The salons were by invitation only, general public not invited. Friends here on long island ( who later retired to NJ) Ray and Kitty Katzel had a neat Minerva touring car dating from  the mid 1920s era with I believe Australian coachwork. We used to tour here together for "No Nothing Tours" that I would organize. ( No Nothing being - no club, no cost, no nothing but good friends driving around on a 45+ mile tour and then sitting down at a great place to have a mid day dinner dutch treat)

[George K]

52 minutes ago, alsancle said:

The story behind this car is pretty amazing.  John "Hawkeye" Hawkinson made a down payment on this in 1959 and then for ever bit of money he gave the seller he could take a part the car.  So it moved from the seller to the buyer piece by piece.

 

If you see it in person it is amazing.  Currently with a lot of other untouched cars in a large collection in NJ.

 

I took the picture at the Gooding auction in Monterey a few years ago.

Must be Castagna body. Knight sleeve valve so probably a static display.

[John Bloom]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

The story behind this car is pretty amazing.  John "Hawkeye" Hawkinson made a down payment on this in 1959 and then for ever bit of money he gave the seller he could take a part the car.  So it moved from the seller to the buyer piece by piece.

 

If you see it in person it is amazing.  Currently with a lot of other untouched cars in a large collection in NJ.

 

I took the picture at the Gooding auction in Monterey a few years ago.

A small slice of the story that was “Hawkeye”, but it focuses on this car. 
 

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/minerva/ak/1930/469862

[George K]

18 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

A small slice of the story that was “Hawkeye”, but it focuses on this car. 
 

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/minerva/ak/1930/469862

If it’s a H&D body then somebody stole something. 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, George K said:

Must be Castagna body. Knight sleeve valve so probably a static display.

 

George, it doesn't have to be a static display!   Eddy sorted mine and it runs like a top.  The big sleeve valve engines are smooth and powerful and they don't have to smoke.  Once mine is warm there is no smoke.

 

 

[alsancle]

Since George posted an Isotta does anybody remember this one?

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Walt G]

I support AJ's statement. Once the sleeve valve engine is warm and properly sorted  there is no smoke - on start up yes. this was from new! My grand dad had a Stearns Knight soft top sport coupe new in 1928 and my Dad remembers even when new upon a cold start up there was some smoke then none when warmed up.

[John_Mereness]

16 minutes ago, Walt G said:

I support AJ's statement. Once the sleeve valve engine is warm and properly sorted  there is no smoke - on start up yes. this was from new! My grand dad had a Stearns Knight soft top sport coupe new in 1928 and my Dad remembers even when new upon a cold start up there was some smoke then none when warmed up.

I grew up with dad's first employee's 1929 Stearns Knight 6 Coupe in the driveway and it did smoke upon certain circumstances (start up, pulling a hill, and stomping on it), though it had well over 100K miles on it (possibly over 200K miles on it).   That said, I have been around Knight cars most of my life and there is nothing really objectionable to any of them American or European.  The only Knight car I thought that was not representative was a Pink Voisen Sedan owned by Clive Kussler - no bugs at Meadowbrook in 1992. 

 

No need for any Sleeve Valve car to be static - ever.

Edited January 29, 2023 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[V16]

Here are some shots from Hawkeye's place near Lake Placid. The 745 Packard phaeton pulled from the barn shortly before loading to come to Illinois. This is the car Hawkeye  affectionately called "Bulldog". One  of my earliest Hershey memories is of Hawkeye pulling this car on to the old Blue Field at Hershey, full of Packard parts which had been loaded into the back seat area. He had removed the seats for more room. After throwing the parts on to the grass he would vend from the car. At  night he would sleep in the back seat area which had a tonneau cover. At the end of the meet he would load up and drive the 439 miles back home in Bulldog. Also in the photos is the Minerva slumbering in the storage garage where it sat for decades.

[mikewest]

22 hours ago, Steven Meixner said:

This is my 1912 Hudson. Original paint and upholstery. One of my favorites to drive.

That's a beauty!

[motoringicons]

Great thread!!!!! Thank you!

Edited January 29, 2023 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

2 hours ago, Walt G said:

I support AJ's statement. Once the sleeve valve engine is warm and properly sorted  there is no smoke - on start up yes. this was from new! My grand dad had a Stearns Knight soft top sport coupe new in 1928 and my Dad remembers even when new upon a cold start up there was some smoke then none when warmed up.

 

I was at the Tampa Auto Museum this weekend.  They have a display for the sleeve valve engine that is very interesting. I’ll save the video I made to a  YouTube format and post it to see it in action.

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by John Bloom (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

interesting.......and the cylinder head could also wear out ? .....being one of the sleeve holders,i wonder how the cylinder head bolted down to allow precise clearances for the sleeves in the block ? and would each cylinder have its own head ? I found a Whillys Knight engine at least i think it is in scrap pile in horrible shape and noticed it was a sleeve valve 

[TexRiv_63]

Great thread, surprised I missed it until now. During my life in Illinois up to 1991 I owned a lot of unrestored older cars but they were called "beaters". Every one was rusty  and the body integrity usually sent them to the boneyard long before the drivetrain was beyond repair. My hobby cars always needed rust repair and paint plus usually a few parts cars worth of better trim and interior parts. In the 70s and 80s when I was most active "restoration" was the immediate go-to for any collectible car and few originals were appreciated or saved. After I moved to Texas I was able to find true rust free cars for the first time and my appreciation for non-restored shifted to the front. Today my definition of "original" is more strict than some in that factory paint must be there in high percentage along with factory interior and mechanicals. The first hobby car that met these criteria was the 1963 Buick Riviera shown in my avatar and ID here, which I owned from 2005 to 2009. About 90% of the paint and all chrome and stainless were factory although I did break my own rules with new seat upholstery and carpeting. 

[alsancle]

Wandering a bit off topic. Here is my unrestored Sleeve valve engine demonstrator.

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

Since George posted an Isotta does anybody remember this one?

 

I think that may be this car.  English body and never been apart I believe.  I don't know many details, but it arrived here in NZ a few years ago. The first photo is at a shop in Lower Hutt June 2020 where it received some attention before attending the Art Deco festival in Napier (second photo from Clive Barker on Flickr). Obviously at some point the owner decided it needed a birthday, so it has been in the shop my younger son works at since late 2020. I took the last two photos in November 2022.

[zepher]

1 hour ago, John Bloom said:

I was at the Tampa Auto Museum this weekend.  They have a display for the sleeve valve engine that is very interesting. I’ll save the video I made to a  YouTube format and post it to see it in action.

 

 

 

Ducati motorcycles have used desmodromic valve trains since the 50's.

But they aren't sleeve valve, they just use one cam to open the valve and one cam to close the valve.
https://motofomo.com/desmodromic-valves-everything-to-know/

[alsancle]

21 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said:

I think that may be this car.  English body and never been apart I believe.  I don't know many details, but it arrived here in NZ a few years ago. The first photo is at a shop in Lower Hutt June 2020 where it received some attention before attending the Art Deco festival in Napier (second photo from Clive Barker on Flickr). Obviously at some point the owner decided it needed a birthday, so it has been in the shop my younger son works at since late 2020. I took the last two photos in November 2022.

I’m looking at this on my phone, but I believe those are two different cars. However, both spotted by Lancefield.

[George K]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Wandering a bit off topic. Here is my unrestored Sleeve valve engine demonstrator.

 

 

That’s a great teaching opportunity to understand why you never want a Knight engine. They so good that they went out of existence just like the dinosaurs that provided the the oil the burnt. You ever have one apart on the floor? A great tip is use synthetic oil it won’t smoke as much. All in good fun but keep them on your half of the track.

[29 Chandler]

In 2000 we brought home a 1929 Chandler Model 65 that we bravely bought on eBay. The car was/is a survivor, really nothing much has been done to this car since new. All of the original components are still on the car. The interior suffered the ravages of a family of squirrels before we took ownership and that will be a chore to replace and still keep the character of the car. We drove it home from Nebraska on a U-Haul trailer with our 1999 For Explorer. The weight of the trailer alone was really much more than that suspension could handle. We did our best with helper springs and over inflating the tires to keep the bottom of the hitch from hitting pavement and the rear end bottoming out. For the whole trip back to SoCal I think the suspension only bottomed out twice. And yes steering was a bit light. We took our time and drove a safe as we could, the whole family was in the Explorer including our 10 month old son Chandler.... We hit all of the gas stations on the way back and had a great time. The car is in the back of the garage waiting for its turn to be working on and our son is 23 years old. A few months after we got home the news broke about the defective Firestone tires that were standard issue on Ford "Exploders", consequently we got a new set of rubber and were ready for another trip.

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, Walt G said:

Friends here on long island ( who later retired to NJ) Ray and Kitty Katzel had a neat Minerva touring car dating from  the mid 1920s era with I believe Australian coachwork.

Here is a Minerva that was bodied in England by Salmon & Sons, and then shipped to Australia where it was sold new.

 

[kfle]

Here is my unrestored 1911 Cole Toy Tonneau which is the only known surviving one in the world.  It has not been fully restored and only had an over paint on the body in the late 1940's.  

You can see the original linoleum on the floor and wood.  

 

Original Leather and seating

[kfle]

A few more pictures of the 1911 Cole that has never been restored.  

 

Lubrication instructions under the wood that the front seat sits on that covers the gas tank

 

Prestolite tank with original lettering

 

Original Plugs in the engine as the cole only has 7800 miles on it

 

 

The very fragile top and battery compartment/tool box are original as well as I was able to match some markings to Cole materials.  

Edited January 29, 2023 by kfle (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

I remember that Jack Passey had a Minerva. I did have to check his book to make sure of the year, a 1932 according to his book. I remember seeing it at his place a few times. One day he had it sitting outside in front of his shop, and I looked it over for some time. I also remember seeing it at a small Concours (Silverado if I recall correctly?). I don't remember if it was a limousine or large sedan? But it sure was beautiful! And mostly original as I recall?

Jack seemed to like the car!

I wish I had a photo of it to share.

[Joe in Canada]

Not here very often but this thread makes me come back. Thanks guys. 

[JV Puleo]

I am glad that the antique car interest has matured enough to finally recognize the value of unrestored cars. Unfortunately, it is a bit like "locking the barn after the horse is stolen." I am afraid that (and this is only my own opinion) turning this enthusiasm into a competition, complete with prizes, has already done incalculable damage to our collective body of knowledge.

 

I came to antique cars from collecting 18th and early 19th century arms...a world where "restoration", although it happens, is not something to brag about, almost always diminishes the value of the artifact and sometimes extends to fraud. Admittedly, cars are a special case in that they are not, or shouldn't be, static displays. All mechanical devices deteriorate when not maintained and used but the ongoing emphasis on cosmetic perfection has robbed us of some fantastic examples...

[kar3516]

14 hours ago, alsancle said:

I think we spent a lot of time talking about this Lincoln KA a few years ago.  Unrestored, but probably needing some (or maybe a lot) restoration.

1934 Lincoln KA Victoria original except front seat covers, Studebaker heater, one taillight lens, one incorrect cigarette lighter, and of course the quick matte finish paint.   1963 Colorado inspection sticker.

[Bob Jacobsen]

Haven't seen any Stutzes here, so thought I'd add my two cents.  1922 KLDH 4-passenger Sportster, 360 cubic inch four.  Original paint, upholstery (except driver's bottom cushion). Engine rebuilt with original Stutz oversize pistons, but not painted.  New top and tires.  Shows about 30,000 miles, but speedo was disconnected when I got it.  Only one listed in the Stutz Club roster.  Looks tacky, but drove it 400 miles on 2021 Modoc Tour.  Sat in a MA barn for many years until my friend inherited it from her father who bought it in 1947.  We drove it around the Indy track in 2011 for the 100th anniversary of Indy and Stutz.

[Grimy]

36 minutes ago, kar3516 said:

14 hours ago, alsancle said:

1934 Lincoln KA Victoria original except front seat covers, Studebaker heater, one taillight lens, one incorrect cigarette lighter, and of course the quick matte finish paint.   1963 Colorado inspection sticker.

And a Pierce-Arrow gear shift knob...

[old car fan]

Nothing tacky about the stutz, awesome. 

[Fordy]

Restored is not original by any spin that gets put on it. Here in Australia there are locally built muscle cars from the 60's and 70's getting the full workover as they used to be flogged to death and rusted out so few actually "survived". Until 10 - 15 years ago they had little real value. The work getting done is normally to very high standards and to the extreme in detail such as paint daubs replicating factory inspection marks etc. This is because the few cars left started to be worth some serious coin and junkers got pulled out of sheds and "restored to completely original". 

Now a genuine vehicle, no major accident damage that has been repaired with original factory parts and had them painted to match the existing just may fall into the category of "original", but it has had some restoration in having a fender replaced etc. Mechanical repairs and servicing using factory spares maintains originality but the moment that an aftermarket panel is fitted or the brakes get upgraded from drums to disks or it gets a bigger carb and headers - you cannot call it original.

Neither is a car that has had new floors and sills, replacement door skins and fenders ever going to be original. Great that they are being saved and they deserve to be but they should not be misrepresented as to past history.

Tires are another issue - if the car came with Firestones that are no longer available and is now fitted with the equivalent Goodrich - is it still original. In intent yes but reality no sadly.

"restored to original specifications" is still not in my books an original car.