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kfle

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Everything posted by kfle

  1. Depends on if the lock rings were originally plated or not. Here is a Disteel Wheel ad from the period and you can see they were black on the inner part, main part painted to match the car, and then the lock ring painted black again. This design is how the Cole in the first picture I shared is done. Some cars had the lock ring plated to really pop.
  2. Here is my 1923 Cole with Disteel wheels. Paint themed and striping is done as original to this car.
  3. Ed - I have wondered the same thing with the survival rate of Coles. That big V8 engine (only the Cunningham had a bigger V8) in 1915 on has very low survival rates versus production. I thought collectors and speedster builders would have loved the platform for having fun but it just wasnt so. My hypothesis is two parts: 1. Many Coles were turned into work trucks and tow trucks. About 6 of the surviving Coles today were turned back from tow trucks during restoration over the years. Cole had a very strong chassis and springs as well as the powerful engine so they were perfect for making work trucks 2. The government and military purchased quite a bit of the Cole production at the time. Also local governments purchased for fire and police as well as I have order acknowledgements and stories about businesses purchasing Cole's for the salesman so that they could get place to place quicker and in style. See the attached agreement offering the factory and all parts needed to build trucks. This was probably similar for White. 3.
  4. Ed - Great to see that you went down the rabbit hole with Whites just like I did with Coles. You are absolutely right in what you have presented and I have found those 'lists' in some publications were not completely right. I probably have the largest repository of dated Cole documentation and actual Cole factory materials and it offer a glimpse into how many of the auto magazines/published articles at the time were not 100% accurate. If you think about it is not surprising at all as the free flow and ease of access to information was not an easy thing at the time. Another thing that I have found in Cole's own documentation was that JJ Cole didnt believe in model years and he released everything as a Series and Model. For example in 1914, Cole released had three different series that were released. A lot of the big books on history like to do everything by model year so they completely messed up when some Coles were actually released and out. These smaller very capable high quality manufactures would also produce and modify anything for their customers. Attached is a blurb saying this from a 1916 Cole bulletin that was the magazine that went to Cole dealers. Very few of these Cole bulletins are seen elsewhere so the big books that were put together in the 60's-80's didnt have access to this stuff. Another example is this very long wheelbase Cole 4 person roadster that they built for a customer. According to all lists, dealer brochures, etc, this car shouldn't have existed, but Cole built it for someone. My 1923 Cole 2 person Coupe was custom built for JJ Cole Jr. and there is no other Cole model like it at the time. I can go on with other examples and the documentation but you get the point. You have some special White's and it is great to see that you have done the research on them to preserve the history and raise the education and awareness on the company.
  5. Ok I’ll check the carb. I never use E10 gas in the cars as 100% non ethanol gas is plentiful in west Michigan.
  6. Yes all is good and thanks for asking. Just been extremely busy and haven’t had as much time for the cars as I would like!
  7. Ok I will have to try that. My other Coles don’t require me to do it, so didn’t think I would need to.
  8. I have a 1920 Cole with a Stewart special Cole vacuum tank which was high volume. I rebuilt it not long ago as it was completely gummed up from previous owner leaving old gas in it. When I get the car running it pulls gas from the tank and cycles correctly. However after I stop the engine and let it sit for the day the vacuum tank empties itself of gas and the gas runs back into the gas tank. This means that I need to refill the vacuum tank manually to get the engine started as it can’t pull enough fuel from the tank into the empty tank to start the fuel hungry V8. Any ideas on what would be causing this and how to correct it? The gas cap on the gas tank is vented correctly. Here is a video of the engine running so you can see the vacuum tank.
  9. Ed is spot on with his advice. Quality, displacement, stopping power, and size are what you should look at. Cole checked all of these for me and only the Cunningham has a bigger displacement V8 engine. Even though Cole is very rare, their engineering and who they used for components was forward thinking so they are easier to work on than you might expect. I also used to be over 300 pounds and had no problem fitting behind the steering wheel and driving one. Of course, finding one for sale and at a decent price is not an easy job as they rarely go up for public sale. Here is my 1920 Cole Aero 8 7 Person Touring.
  10. That is not a 1912 Cole. It is a 1913 Cole Series 9 6 Cylinder Touring. Here is the story that I posted about a few years ago.
  11. Our garage helper is a Newfoundland named Cole. Here he is with my son in back of the Cole Aero 8.
  12. There is a lot of history here that is not really out there in the public domain. JJ Cole died in 1925 of heart disease shortly after he liquidated the company. The Cole Motor Car company was still profitable when it was liquidated in late 1924. JJ Cole Jr. started a new Cole incorporated and sold parts and service until about 1932. He retained ownership of the Cole factory building and real estate. They almost revived the Cole Motor Car company in the 1930's but decided against it for various reasons. JJ Cole Jr. passed away in the early 1950's from heart disease as well and Joe Cole took over the real estate, collection, etc. The Cole family rented out the factory building and their real estate to other companies until about 1990 when it was sold off to the county in Indiana and became the county jail annex. So essentially, the Cole incorporated was a company that was primarily real estate. They still did have quite a bit of left over Cole parts and archives as well, however in the early 1970's there was a big flood of the river by the factory and the basement was flooded ruining all of the parts and documents so they were destroyed. The Cole family had six Cole Motor Cars in the basement of the factory that they maintained and kept in good condition. They started selling them off in the late 1980's when they left the factory building.
  13. That is a 1913 Series 9 Cole and it is still around, though buried deep in a large collection so not seen in years by the public.
  14. There are only two Cole Series 10's that are known to survive today and they are both in the state of Washington. They cannot be traced to this car based on what is known by the current owners but who knows.
  15. That was a huge price for sure and probably why it wasnt purchased. There is no record of the Cole family buying this car at the time. I imagine they guy who found it was playing up the price based on trying to sell it to the Cole family thinking they would pay more with an auto with from their namesake.
  16. I was looking through my Cole history materials and I ran across this 'Barn Find' in 1941. JJ Cole Jr., son of the founder of the Cole Motor Car Company, was trying to find Cole Motor Cars that were surviving in the early 1940's. Here is a letter from someone who was searching for these cars on behalf of JJ Cole Jr. showing a find of a 1914 Cole Series 10. Included is also a picture of the Cole in the barn as well as the owner of the Cole. The third document is a follow up letter to JJ Cole Jr. with more information and a blow up of the small picture. It is really interesting history about searching for old cars back then, especially during WW II. A.H. Deeken seemed like an early Wayne Carini!
  17. It says 90s and early 2000s. So it pushes beyond the definition of the aaca guidelines but to younger people that is a ‘classic’ to them. A 2003 small Japanese drift car is an enthusiast car and the interest in the car hobby has to start somewhere. its the car culture that needs to start when your younger and typically its the taste and types of cars that change over the years. I know a 17 year old that bought an 92 Jeep and brings it to the local weekly car cruise. He has a lot of pride in that car.
  18. I thought the Millennials and Gen Z don't care about driving and the car hobby was going away? Actual data. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1129921_survey-says-millennials-and-gen-z-care-about-classic-cars-after-all "It's a common assumption that Millennials and members of Generation Z are less interested in cars than previous generations. But according to Hagerty survey results released last week, these younger drivers are more likely—not less—to want to own a classic car than their parents or grandparents. Of the 10,000 United States drivers surveyed, Gen Z and Millennials were most likely to report currently owning a collectible or classic car. One quarter of Millennials surveyed said they owned a classic car, as did 22% of Gen Zers surveyed. They were followed by Gen X (19%), Baby Boomers (13%), and the so-called Silent Generation (11%). In addition, members of the Gen Z and Millennial generations who don't already own a classic car expressed more interest in owning one than older generations. Of the Millennials surveyed, 57% expressed interest in owning a classic car, and so did 53% of the Gen Zers surveyed. About half of Gen Xers (49%) also showed interest in classic cars, while numbers for Boomers (33%) and the Silent Generation (19%) were much lower. "Much of the 'death of driving' handwringing by the media in the wake of the Great Recession was based on data showing younger generations were getting their licenses later, buying their first vehicles later, and buying fewer vehicles compared to previous generations at the same age. That conflated buying power with demand," Ryan Tandler, the survey lead, said in a statement. "The recession hit younger generations harder and delayed a host of major purchases and life milestones." Millennials are now catching up and, as the nation's largest generation, they could become the collector-car hobby's biggest group in the near future, Hagerty predicts. That is, if the economic fallout from the global coronavirus pandemic doesn't put them right back where they were a decade ago."
  19. Yesterday, I had a group of 8 Steamers on their tour stop by the workshop for a coffee stop and tour of the Cole Motor Car collection. It was a great time and a real joy for my son and I to see all of those steamers in action! A great group of people as well.
  20. Well it sold for $43,000. Just over the high end of the estimate.
  21. Here is the Roamer ad for the Victoria model. I thought that Roamer used Rubay bodies according to their ads.
  22. Taft in a 1912 Cole 30-40. For those that know the stories about Taft's weight, notice the front and rear tire 🙂
  23. A little earlier than most cars on here as I am more into pre mid twenties myself, though this is a CCCA car. Here is my 1925 Cole Brouette with a body by Willoughby. It is unrestored so these are the original colors as picked by Mrs. Cole herself.
  24. Electric cars will become more prevalent and I am well aware of that as I work in the high tech industry. Cars are one thing, but there are lots of other machines that work on gas such boats, lawn equipment, generators, etc. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the number of the engines in the categories that I just mentioned outnumber the cars in the world. Yes you can get electric lawn mowers, but what about a generator? Also, with Boats, where is the groundswell of electric boats? For example in West Michigan gas stations all over have Rec Fuel or 100% pure gas with no ethanol. It is going to be a long time before there is no gas at all and we will see if that day truly comes. It absolutely may become more expensive for gas as it could be a specialty item and we will have to adapt, but it is not the sky is falling scenario.
  25. I wasn't going to get jump into this thread of the rehashed age old debate, but since you asked with your number 4 point I will give you an answer. I am in my 40's, hence under the age of 50 and I got rid of all of my newer cars to exclusively buy pre 1932 cars. I didn't grow up in a car family, had no exposure to old cars, etc. When I was about age 30 I got a Challenger SRT launch edition when it came out. Loved the speed and doing things with it. Then I moved on to a new Porsche, and then in 2016 I purchased a Maserati. Had fun hanging out with others, the speed, etc. etc. About 4 years ago, My daughter who was 19 at the time decided that she wanted a Volkswagen Camper bus. We went to some places to look at some and she purchased a 1978 Volkswagen Westfalia and to this day it is her daily driver. At the place where she purchased it, they had a wonderful 1931 Model A roadster which my wife and I fell in love with. We purchased it the next day and I have been in love with old cars ever since. I actually sold off my newer cars and now own several early cars. Also, my 20 year old son only likes early cars and drives the Model A, Model T, and the Cole's all around and at least 4 times per week. He is also now one of the driving instructors at the Gilmore Car Museum Model T driving school, which is always sold out and probably 50% of the participants are under the 40's age range. Club membership is not an indicator of old car ownership. For example, I belong to the Model A club (MARC) however I rarely go to a meeting or tour because I am very busy with my job. Also, many of these clubs hold activities and lunches during the week which is great for the retired set though not for people under 50. I know several other people in my area that own pre war cars and we just meet up somewhere or enjoy hanging out and driving them together. I most likely will not renew my MARC membership. The only reason I have an AACA club membership is for the Hershey swap meet and I have never been to or participated in an AACA activity outside of Hershey. Just this weekend I was texting with another 40 something old that owns a 1920's car sharing technical and how to information. In the 'old days', getting technical help would have been to talk to the local car club expert and was a value of joining the club. These days, there is so many more avenues to get help and the communication is real time. As far as saying the old stuff is not at the local car shows anymore is also misleading. It is a factor of time and prioritization. Do I really want to bring my 1913 car to the local car show and sit in the sun for 4 hours while a bunch of people walk around and touch things? Also with the cars and coffee car shows of today there are so many more cars available so how can you compare today to 30 years ago? 30 years ago, you essentially had pre war, 50s cars, and muscle cars so of course as a percentage of the car show crowd you were going to have more brass era. Today you have all of those, plus the 70s' cars, 80's cars, and even the 90's. Also you have the JDM's and Tuners. There is so much more out there that people can collect. Things are changing for sure and the biggest issue that I see is the disposable income that is available to the younger generation but I see a much greater interest from the younger people in the older cars than you may thing. Here is a bonus picture of my 20 year old son cleaning the engine on the Model T in preparation for changing the head gasket.
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