What is the top speed of a typical 3 on the tree car?

[Matt129]

I’m going to be purchasing a 1953 Studebaker Champion with an 85hp in-line flathead 6, and a three on the tree (non-overdrive) transmission. I’ve heard some people say that you shouldn’t drive them over 50mph because it will cause extreme wear on the engine, and I’ve also talked to someone who said they drove one just like the car I’m looking at 70mph cross country twice, without issue. I don’t want to wear out the engine before I’ve even had fun with the car 😂. What are y’all’s opinions on this topic?

[charlespetty]

1 minute ago, Matt129 said:

I’m going to be purchasing a 1953 Studebaker Champion with an 85hp in-line flathead 6, and a three on the tree (non-overdrive) transmission. I’ve heard some people say that you shouldn’t drive them over 50mph because it will cause extreme wear on the engine, and I’ve also talked to someone who said they drove one just like the car I’m looking at 70mph cross country twice, without issue. I don’t want to wear out the engine before I’ve even had fun with the car 😂. What are y’all’s opinions on this topic?

I can't comment on the Studebaker Champion directly.  Depends on the axle ratio.  I had a 1951 Studebaker pickup with this engine without overdrive and it was screaming on the highway at 55mph.  My 1954 Nash Statesman Hydramatic with a similar sized engine to the Champion on the other hand comfortably cruised on the highway at 60mph no problem.  I drove that car all over Northern California and Southern Oregon at highway speeds with no issues.  It did take forever to get up to speed however.  

[TerryB]

At 85 hp is not going to be a hot rod.  Enjoy it for what it is.  

[CChinn]

Matt,  Thanks for asking the question. I’ve wondered the same thing. I have a 1940 Chevy with a 216cc 85 HP inline 6 engine. The speedometer redline is at 50mph. I have gotten up to 50-55 a few times, but don’t stay there too long. It cruises nicely at 40-45 mph. I have heard and read on this forum that these engines can rev higher than modern engines with no damage to the engine. I look forward to the replies from our very experienced members. I always learn a lot on this forum 

[ply33]

@charlespetty Gave the answer in a nutshell: “Depends on the axle ratio”. Well that and the engineering of the drivetrain but I understand that Studebaker was pretty good on engineering.

 

For a bit older car but a same topic you can find my opinion at https://www.ply33.com/Misc/speed

 

For @CChinn, I would be very gentle pushing a 1940 Chevy. Not because of the displacement or the maximum brake horsepower but because it does not have full pressure lubrication, etc.

[CChinn]

Ply33,  thanks for your comment. I have heard about the lubrication issue and concerns about the Babbitt. I also don’t push the car to the limit because of safety concerns even though brakes, steering, tires, lubrication, etc are all maintained. It is an 80+ y/o car after all. I don’t drive the car to go fast, but drive it for the enjoyment and experience of driving an older car 

Edited January 15, 2023 by CChinn (see edit history)

[Andy J]

I've had my '40 Chevy Master 85 to 60 mph a couple of times,but I don't think she likes it. It is comfortable at 50-52 mph,which is just fine for me.

[Matt129]

45 minutes ago, charlespetty said:

I can't comment on the Studebaker Champion directly.  Depends on the axle ratio.  I had a 1951 Studebaker pickup with this engine without overdrive and it was screaming on the highway at 55mph.  My 1954 Nash Statesman Hydramatic with a similar sized engine to the Champion on the other hand comfortably cruised on the highway at 60mph no problem.  I drove that car all over Northern California and Southern Oregon at highway speeds with no issues.  It did take forever to get up to speed however.  

The axle ratio is 4.10 gears I believe, and I think it’s worth mentioning that the engine sounds like it’s extremely healthy condition. It has over 60psi of oil pressure at idle and has no ticking or knocking, and runs quieter than my 1999 Lincoln town car with under 100,000 miles on it 🤣

Edited January 15, 2023 by Matt129 (see edit history)

[charlespetty]

You should be fine at 55-60.

[arcticbuicks]

Pre 54 chev with Babbitt bearings won’t take prolonged high rpm , or any other engine actually with Babbitt  …….some guys will swap a 53-54 powerglide auto rear into a 3 speed std car and can get a lot more speed do to gear ratio with rear end from automatic car and this torque rear fits a long ways back , or some engines can be converted to insert bearings and high oil pressure pump but costly

[Gary_Ash]

I have a 1948 Studebaker M5 truck with the 170 cu in engine and 4.88 ratio rear end. Your rear axle ratio is probably much lower, like 4.27 or 4.11.  But, even my truck is happy with 60-65 mph speeds, engine rpm’s well below 3000. I’ve had it over 70 mph but the suspension wasn’t designed for those speeds.  Your 1953 Champion will be happy enough at 60-65 without undue wear on the engine and your suspension is better than my truck with a solid axle. Overdrive makes all the difference as the overdrive ratio is about 0.7:1.  So 4.11 * 0.7 = 2.88, a good cruise ratio. 

 

So, I just re-read your post: no overdrive. This changes things a bit. The Champion engine will cruise all day at 3000 rpm but 4000 rpm is not a good idea. Figure out your cruise speed based on rear axle ratio, tire o.d., and about 3000 rpm. With 6.70-15 tires and a 4.10 rear end, you should be at about 2900 rpm at 60 mph. Sounds good!

[SC38dls]

I have a 38 Studebaker flat 6 90 hp engine. I can run at 60-65 without a problem. Took it to Hershey from the SC/GA border about 650 miles most of it at 60 on the speedometer so maybe 58-62 actual mph. Ran well both up and back and got about 15 mpg. Listen to the engine it will tell you what it likes and doesn’t like and act accordingly. Drive the wheels off it. 
dave s 

[Rusty_OToole]

It depends on the car. A Cadillac or Olds V8 or Packard straight eight with 3 speed might top 100. Smaller lower powered cars, not so much.

 

The Studebaker Champion was an economy car with a small, 85HP engine. It should be reasonably happy cruising at 50 to 55 MPH although, it will be noisier than a modern car.

 

The very similar looking Studebaker Commander or Land Cruiser with bigger six, or later V8, will be considerably faster.

 

I don't doubt the Champion would go 70 when new, like I don't doubt your granny could dance all night when she was 18 but that was a long time ago. Out of respect for the car's age I would keep it down to 50 or 55.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Do yourself a favor, source an overdrive unit to add to the transmission, plenty of resources and advice in the Studebaker Drivers Club.  An overdrive reduces rpms about 25-30%, saves excessive engine wear and stress, increases mpg, gives you flexibility in any driving situation.

[joe_padavano]

The fact that it is three-on-the-tree is irrelevant. Except for transmissions with overdrive, every three speed, four speed, and automatic trans sold by US automakers in the 1950s-70s had a high gear with a 1:1 ratio. At that point, only the final drive and tire diameter matters (well, and aerodynamic drag).

[Matt129]

53 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

 I don't doubt your granny could dance all night when she was 18 but that was a long time ago. 

Well, until she got sick, she was 79 years old and could still beat my friends at basketball so… 🤣🤣

[Bryan G]

My general experience with a full-pressure lube/insert bearing flathead and car rather than truck gearing: 60 is quite tolerable, though I've ridden with some folks who didn't feel comfortable pushing them that hard. You will find your comfort level. I would drive the flathead six Ford I had up to 65 on occasion, and hit 70 a time or two. I never ran out of "engine", I ran out of "chassis"! 

[JamesR]

My opinion: If you have a mostly original/stock early '50's American car or earlier, I would recommend a six volt tachometer. (Most cars of this era were six volt. If converted to 12 volt, as some cars are, then buy a 12 volt unit.) It will give you more information to help decide how to drive your old car. The 130 horsepower V-8 in my '54 Ford is backed by a three speed w/overdrive, but the overdrive isn't functioning right now. The car has about 68k actual miles on it, runs good with decent compression (over 100 psi in all cylinders) and has good oil pressure. Without overdrive I've had it up to 75, but I'd NEVER cruise at that speed. Don't know what top speed is, but it isn't much more than that without od.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe cruising engine rpm's on an original (non-rebuilt) old engine should be kept under 3000. By cruising i mean where you go out and drive for 25 miles or more on the highway. In my car that means 50 or 55 mph. As I recall, 60 mph is around 3000 rpm on the Ford w/o overdrive. I have no idea what my rear axle gears are. I could probably improve cruising speed by putting in taller gears, but I won't bother. Of course, all of this varies from car to car. My engine's never been rebuilt so I'm cautious. Again - install a tach.

Edited January 15, 2023 by JamesR (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

The fact that it is three-on-the-tree is irrelevant. Except for transmissions with overdrive, every three speed, four speed, and automatic trans sold by US automakers in the 1950s-70s had a high gear with a 1:1 ratio. At that point, only the final drive and tire diameter matters (well, and aerodynamic drag).

Thank you Joe! I was going to write the same thing.

 

1:1 is typical of most every transmission made before the mid 70s and the shifted overdrive transmissions. Like the Ford truck 4 speed that 3rd was 1:1 and 4th was .7:1 or such. 

 

And I'm sure there are lots of Studebaker/Borg Warner overdrive transmissions available for a 53 Champion. Join the Studebaker Drivers Club, they have lots of advice and sources of parts.👍

Edited January 15, 2023 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Studemax]

Why aren't you asking on the Studebaker Drivers Club forums instead of whoever you asked? And frankly - we are talking about a car built in 1953. I'd expect some issues to be obvious, and plenty that had been handled - or that have that problem licked.

[Grimy]

Use the McCullough formula (below) to calculate RPM at any given speed, and vice versa.  My own principle is to limit *cruising* speed to 70% of either (1) published redline for an engine or (2) the RPM at which maximum horsepower is developed.  I don't have the 1953 Stude hp specs at hand, but a 1946 Champ gets max hp at 4,000 RPM, as someone else said, which would give 2,800 RPM by my rule of thumb, pretty close to the 3,000 that someone else recommended.  You will need to determine the diff ratio (search for the method in the forums) and the diameter of the tires on the car, then put those numbers into the formula.  I like to calculate for speeds at 500 RPM increments, such as 1500-2000-2500-3000 for each car.

 

The McCullough Formula for Determining RPM and Engine Speed

 

The McCullough Formula provides a method for calculating the speed of an automobile for a given engine RPM. By adapting the formula, engine RPM for a given road speed can also be calculated.

 

For accuracy, it is essential to measure the diameter (in inches) of a rear tire (front tire for a front wheel drive car) [edit: with the weight of the car resting on the tire]. Do not rely on the published diameter of a tire as this may be a bit inaccurate. Reference below to “high gear” assumes direct drive through the transmission (1:1).

 

Using the two formulas below, a small table can be constructed giving either speed for a given RPM or engine RPM for a given speed for a particular vehicle. The table can be carried in the car as a reference.

 

McCullough Constant: .002975

 

To Solve for Speed for a given RPM

 

                                    Tire Diameter (inches) x Engine RPM x .002975

MPH (high gear) = —————————————————————

Rear Axle Ratio

 

To Solve for Engine RPM for a given speed

 

 

MPH (high gear) x Gear Ratio

Engine RPM = ———————————————

Tire Diameter (inches) x .002975

 

 

References: Dyke’s Automobile & Gasoline Engine Encyclopedia

(1923, 1924 & 1943 Editions, Page 1046).

[bryankazmer]

Your calculation of RPM and speed is rigorous, but the 70% is a bit of a ballpark number at best.  Stroke/piston speed/reciprocating mass are going to effect this.

I agree 3000 rpm is a reasonable guess.  Keep in mind that when new the car may have been typically driven faster, but expected engine life before rebuild was less also.

Since Studebaker offered an OD, it's the best speed increase option.  

 

(And since "three on the tree" covers the late 30's until at least the 1960's, it is indeed irrelevant)

 

[Grimy]

9 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

Your calculation of RPM and speed is rigorous, but the 70% is a bit of a ballpark number at best.  Stroke/piston speed/reciprocating mass are going to effect this.

I agree 3000 rpm is a reasonable guess.  Keep in mind that when new the car may have been typically driven faster, but expected engine life before rebuild was less also.

Since Studebaker offered an OD, it's the best speed increase option.  

 

(And since "three on the tree" covers the late 30's until at least the 1960's, it is indeed irrelevant)

 

Bryan, I agree that the 70% is no more than a ROT (Rule of Thumb).  Known high-RPM engines (Jag for example) may be able to sustain cruising at higher speeds.  My ROT is for the L-head and T-head engines I have.  I further agree that an OD is the best investment for the OP, who should also either acquire an OD (shorter) driveshaft for the conversion, or have one made up (not expensive).  And replace the u-joints on general principles while the driveshaft is out!

[bryankazmer]

3 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Bryan, I agree that the 70% is no more than a ROT (Rule of Thumb).  Known high-RPM engines (Jag for example) may be able to sustain cruising at higher speeds.  My ROT is for the L-head and T-head engines I have.  I further agree that an OD is the best investment for the OP, who should also either acquire an OD (shorter) driveshaft for the conversion, or have one made up (not expensive).  And replace the u-joints on general principles while the driveshaft is out!

Agree - the typical flathead or early OHV has a long stroke and relatively heavy pistons and is designed for torque at low rpm.  So conservative rpm limit.  

That Stude six was already an old design by 1953, really like prewar level.  I had a 41 Plymouth long ago with a similar engine and power/weight, and it wasn't much happy above 50-55 mph although capable of more.

[Walt G]

14 hours ago, SC38dls said:

Listen to the engine it will tell you what it likes and doesn’t like and act accordingly. Drive the wheels off it. 

I have driven my cars for many hours at highway speeds ( 50-55) you can tell where the car is comfortable and it depends upon the road - long flat areas or up and down long hills. The 31 Franklin victoria brougham I had liked 53 mph best up or down hills in 80+ degree weather  it was a 6 cylinder engine slightly tweaked - timing advanced it did not have high speed gears. . The 1940 Buick  I have is the 320 cu in engine and has no issue being driven at 85 mph for short bursts of speed ( scares me to do so for anything longer then that ) and can cruise along all day at 60 mph. Lots of power to spare. This is a car with less then 60,000 original miles that has had all removable units rebuilt ( carb., fuel pump, generator , starter etc)  and a valve job by a Buick expert ( I don't use the word expert at all but do when it comes to Doug Seybold)

[Grimy]

My own worst case of reciprocating mass is my 1918 Pierce 48-B-5 dual valve:  525 cid out of 6 cylinders, 4.5" bore, 5.5" stroke, iron pistons.  Seat of the pants, its most comfortable cruise speed is 48-50 and I honor that almost all of the time.  Occasionally, however, I need to increase the speed to avoid being a hazard on stretches of interstate when such roads are unavoidable.  Redline for this engine is 2,500 rpm per Owners Manual and factory literature, but no max hp @ RPM data were ever published (but Company Engineering Committee reports indicate 121 hp on dyno at an unspecified RPM).  The car has 3.53 gears and the rear tire diameter is 36.5 inches.  Calculations per McCullough Formula are as follow:

 

2500 rpm redline

1000 rpm (40%) = 30.67 mph

1500 rpm (60%) = 46 mph

1750 rpm (70%) = 53.5 mph

[Fargoguy]

Stude sixes are very good engines. Do yourself a favor and research the upgrade to overdrive. I have had two- 1950 champ starlight- same engine as you- and a 61 lark with the 170 overhead six. Both were overdrive cars- the 50 was very solid and comfortable at 65 and the lark had a fast geared rear- was orignaly a non-od car- and it really was comfortable At 65-70. 

[3macboys]

I'm surprised that with all the talk of the go no one has mentioned the whoa.  If you haven't had a lot of experience with an older vehicle make sure that you keep bigger gaps as the stopping distance will not be what you are used to.  It is one thing to get the car up to speed, it is another complete issue making it stop comfortably and smoothly.  

[Frank DuVal]

10 hours ago, bryankazmer said:

That Stude six was already an old design by 1953, really like prewar level.

Even older when they stopped making them in 1964! But still powering new cars.....     They tried adapting an overhead valve head to the block, but it had cracking issues in service. The old flathead reigned supreme.  Went from 170 cu in to 185 somewhere from the 50s to the 60s.

 

Back in the 70s I owned a 170 with overdrive (1950 Champion) with a gazillion miles, very worn out, got 50 miles to the quart of 40 weight, and didn't leak any. It would drive 55/60 just fine. I tried 70 on the interstate climbing a steep hill and it decided to boil all the water out. I had a few gallons with me, expecting issues, and slowly added water (watching the exciting boiling to steam of the added water) until it was full, started right up and it drove just like it had before the overheating.  I sold it for $100 several months later and my father thought I was a slick tongue salesman to get that much.👍

 

So, 55 easy for the 53 Champion W/O overdrive.

[60FlatTop]

Most cars have a speed where they just feel like they want to be. It can vary widely on the same model and engine. Each is assembled within tolerances. Sometimes all those tolerances fall into a combination that makes for a stellar performer. I have had a couple of those, really sweet.

 

On any car I drive my concern is the circulation of oil in the engine. Whether by design or from neglect, if the engine oil flow back to the crankcase is impeded in any way you are at risk during extended driving. I generally alternate between interstate and secondary roads for this reason.

Maybe it was the time we retrieved my cousin's daughter's car that lost it's bottom end due to all the oil being under the valve covers, I guess that made an impression on me.

[avgwarhawk]

My 54 Buick is happy at 55-60.  She'll do more but not happy about it.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

My 54 Buick is happy at 55-60.  She'll do more but not happy about it.

Must be a mountain car!😁.  I assure you that in the '50s-'60s we did not top out at 60 mph.  I drove my 1940 and 1950 faster all the time.

  I believe too many times folks equate the "cars happy " place with rpm sound, unintentional comparing with modern engines and higher speed gears. 

 

  Ben

[drhach]

3 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Must be a mountain car!😁.  I assure you that in the '50s-'60s we did not top out at 60 mph.  I drove my 1940 and 1950 faster all the time.

  I believe too many times folks equate the "cars happy " place with rpm sound, unintentional comparing with modern engines and higher speed gears. 

 

  Ben

I heard someone ask once about all of the mechanical noise coming from their old Harley. The great response was, "that's what ear plugs are for". 

[avgwarhawk]

16 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Must be a mountain car!😁.  I assure you that in the '50s-'60s we did not top out at 60 mph.  I drove my 1940 and 1950 faster all the time.

  I believe too many times folks equate the "cars happy " place with rpm sound, unintentional comparing with modern engines and higher speed gears. 

 

  Ben

 

The 54 will do 85 mph.   She does not like it.  Much more happy at 55-60 mph. 

[Jim Mead]

Your foot has to lay sideways just right, then the speed is right…..

[Buffalowed Bill]

When answering the gentleman's pre-purchase questions regarding the car I gave him my rundown on what I saw from the few phots and what I know from long experience with similar cars. I suggested that an overdrive was an important feature that most of these came with. Then suggested what the rear-end ratio would have been with and w/o OD. Just to make clear what I believe is important, I'll reprint so responders know what I think is important.

Stay away from the taller 3.73 gears! With 85hp and a 3000lb. car you would realize quickly the mistake you had made. Stick with the 4.10's and put an OD in it. The transmissions or thick on the ground and the other parts, like the forward part of the two piece driveline, shouldn't be a problem finding either. The 3.73gr RE is going to be harder to find then the OD anyway. The flexibility lost with the taller gears is palpable. Trust me on this I've owned Studebakers for 60yrs. 

 

Some anecdotal evidence: I currently have two Champions in my collection. One is a 1951 with 4.10 gears the other is a 1950 SLC with 4.54 gears, both have an OD. The 1950 is much more pleasurable to drive around the city and in overdrive the difference is scarcely noticeable, that is until you find yourself on a hill. The 1950 will usually breach the hill with little problem the 1951 will usually require kicking it down out of OD. Have you ever encountered a modern car, or truck that has tall gearing that constantly lugs on the slightest hill, and continuously is searching for the right gear? Well I think most of us have. It would be the same thing with the Champ and the 3.73 gears but you would have to do the shifting. Even with the later, long, stroked, 1956>, engine, Studebaker would not sell a champion with 3.73 gears. I honestly don't know if Studebaker did offer 3.73' in the later Larks, but early on they knew how it would turn out for driving pleasure and extra clutch and brake service. Trust me on this! 

 

With the 4.10 gr a comfortable speed would seem to be 55mph. Each car seems to have a sweet spot-only driving will determine where that spot is.

 

[Steve Braverman]

I once had a 1951 Hudson up to 95. Felt like it had a little more to go, but I didn't.

[28 Chrysler]

Do a search for a Nash Rambler's top speed in 2nd gear.

[JACK M]

32 minutes ago, 28 Chrysler said:

Do a search for a Nash Rambler's top speed in 2nd gear.

Beep-Beep

[JACK M]

Still waiting to see Matts new car.

One of my favorites as I had a 53 Champion as my first car.

Love to have another one.