Old car for a permanent daily driver

[John Bloom]

4 hours ago, JamesR said:

It seems to me that you're looking for a poetic solution to a practical problem. Rarely a good approach. I love old cars, but if you're looking for a daily driver, you might check out an 8 to 12 year old Toyota with 100,000 miles or less on it. I bought a good one several years ago for under 6 grand and it's been an awesome car.  They'll be priced higher nowadays with the crazy car market.

 

 

Let me second this. In 2009 with four kids age 8, 10, 12, and 14. We bought a new Toyota sienna minivan for my wife to run the house from. I had a nice Ford F150 pick up truck. Fast forward to about three years ago and the kids are all gone and my pick up truck had rust holes in the frame you could put your fist through. I bought my wife a very nice new luxurious larger SUV and she loves it. I took over her minivan just on a temporary basis while I decided what new pick up truck or vehicle I would get for myself. That was three years ago.still rolling in it.  The women in my office that work for me love to tease me about it, all my car buddies take their shots and love to bring up my minivan. I see through all the hate. Deep down in the dark recesses of their soul, they’re insanely jealous. It has 287,000 miles on it right now. Tires and brakes every 60,000 miles, a new battery every four years. The engine, transmission, air conditioning have never needed service, other than a little bit of recharging of the air conditioner. The car is worth maybe $1500 and as reliable as can be. I won’t name any names on a public forum but a few of my car buddies have borrowed it from me a few times. They were disguise while driving it to try and avoid any shame. I’m constantly preaching the attributes of the minivan. Go Find a good used Honda or Toyota minivan and let the haters hate!  
 

note the 4‘ x 8‘ sign you can bring home in your minivan!

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by John Bloom (see edit history)

[John348]

How old is old? and what where are you using it every day? How far are you driving it? Are you using it to commute to work? Is your job considered and essential service job, in that you have to get to a site to perform that task? These are all important factors to consider.  Weather is everything! 

Insurance can be another issue when the weather is bad and there is a problem. 

I think it is a nice idea but there are too many variables that come into play

I sold my 2005 GMC Safari Van (Astro Van) last year because I was having problems with locating a body control module. When I looked under the engine cowling all of the PVC vacuum lines were brittle and I decided it was time to part ways. I somewhat regret it now, using a tow vehicle, a 2019 2500 diesel pickup as an every day vehicle in crowded NYC metro area, sorta, kinda, sucks. It is like driving a delivery truck to pick up a pizza, but I did get rid of a problem before it occurred that I had ZERO motivation to repair  

 

8 hours ago, SC38dls said:

That’s Gracie and Sophie, my two golden doodles. Sophie made it 15+ years and Gracie 16+ years. We lost Gracie just before Hershey. My two blondes that rode in the backseat and my wife didn’t mind. 
dave s 

Dave, sorry to hear about Sophie 

Edited October 13, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

7 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

I see you have never replaced the heater core in one of these impossible cars.....🤣

Wrong, A 1600 yes, can't understand that exposed blower motor assy. and I don't like cables. I expect the 2002 since it's the same car body. Try a 320, now that is a job and a half. Wear long sleeves and rubber gloves if you don't want to bleed. Take precautions with air bags. Ever done one😉 you'll know what I mean.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[StanleyRegister]

When I read what it would take to get the dying heater blower motor out of my Volvo 240 wagon (including the "Sawzall method"), I got rid of the car.  Kind of wish I hadn't done that, maybe I wouldn't be writing this stuff now.

[classic_cruiser]

Another factor which could come into play here is the amount of traffic in the area where you live…. I’m in SE PA and I think it’s more likely that any daily I have these days will be killed by another driver than by rust, even with all the brine they spray on the roads in this area.
 

I had an 87 cavalier I had managed to put nearly 300,000 on in 25 years, never needed much work and it was simple to maintain, just kept after it and kept it clean.  But when it started to get too eaten by rust, common maintenance items started to get hard to find, and all the local boneyard inventory dried up, I switched to a newer commuter.  That newer one got totaled for some small creases in the unibody by getting rear-ended at a stop light, and even though it was in near mint condition they valued it at next to nothing.  With the crazy way people drive now, you almost have to treat any daily driver like a disposable pie plate in this area.  My approach when the time comes will be to get a 7 year old well maintained commuter and hope I get another 7 out of it, every 7 years.  

[Ed Luddy]

22 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

Truth. Pretty much end of discussion. You need to refine your criteria, or, as John also said, find a "winter beater" as well.

Yes. the list of demands is totally unrealistic. No such car as a non rusting one.

[StanleyRegister]

1 hour ago, Ed Luddy said:

Yes. the list of demands is totally unrealistic. No such car as a non rusting one.

Is it just the rust issue that makes it totally unrealistic?  If the rest of it can be done, I may just have to understand and deal with rust.

[1912Staver]

13 hours ago, StanleyRegister said:

When I read what it would take to get the dying heater blower motor out of my Volvo 240 wagon (including the "Sawzall method"), I got rid of the car.  Kind of wish I hadn't done that, maybe I wouldn't be writing this stuff now.

A difficult job on an otherwise reasonably easy to work on car.  I have replaced them about a dozen times. Worked in a shop that did a sideline in Volvo's, plus my own car.  The first one was time consuming , but later repeats go a lot smoother.

[Scooter Guy]

Depending on just how "analog" of an experience you want...

 

If you want a vehicle with no computers, no electronic ignition, an no electronic fuel management that means the most modern cars that fit that bill are from the late 1970s - about the mid 1980s. Those cars are all nearly 40 years old (or more). Unless you find one that's been well taken care of and maintained, you'll have some failures due just to age of parts not to mention items that will have just worn out in about 40 years. Not insurmountable, but something to think about nonetheless. 

 

And you'll have to consider the technology of the time including what safety items you deem important: seat belts? disc brakes? ABS? airbags? traction/stability control? and so on...

 

If you want something that really has strong parts availability, then that's "enthusiast" level vehicles to some extent as dealer support and event most auto parts stores will not be reliable sources of parts for anything much beyond about 15 years old. Most of the cars supported by a large enthusiast community with lots of available parts are sports cars, muscle cars, or certain trucks - not a lot of run-of-the-mill daily driver type cars. You mentioned a Mustang - that's just about ideal in terms of a an older vehicle with massive parts availability. You could build the entire car, body panels and all, by catalog shopping and picking out what you're interested in. 

 

Just a few things to think about. 

[TerryB]

Here in PA a daily driver has to go through a yearly safety inspection by a garage or dealership that is accredited to do the work.  Rust out of key structural elements of the vehicle is part of the inspection. The wife’s car of a friend of mine just failed for that even though a quick visual seems like the car is ok, it was the underneath structure that is bad.  Cost to fix it was more than the car was worth (2000ish Ford Taurus).  The car only is lightly used but it was a good backup for their main car.  Wife & husband are both in their mid 80s so they don’t drive much.

 

One thing not mentioned is safety of the old car in a crash.  Newer cars have a lot better occupant survival rates due to structural design to absorb energy in a crash.  Doors are designed to stay shut and seatbelts and airbags give added protection.  If that is not a concern then, we’ll that’s your choice.  I do know our car insurance rates went way down when my wife switched from a 2007 grand caravan to a 2018 Subaru Forester.

 

As a daily driver, the 1955-57 Chevrolet probably has the best aftermarket parts supply out there.

[TAKerry]

My one brother bought a new Volvo around 1990. One of the big boxy looking things. Car was babied and lightly driven. He upgraded after a few years with a newer model and sold the first car to another brother. He still has that car and his wife uses as a daily driver. He thinks it will last another 30 years.

[StanleyRegister]

27 minutes ago, Scooter Guy said:

Depending on just how "analog" of an experience you want...

 

Thanks Scooter Guy for that crisp and clear analysis.  Your comment on early Mustang part availability (at least for now) is one of the things that made me start considering that car.

 

I hadn't mentioned safety-related things; honestly I'm kind of a troglodyte on that subject.  It's an area of added complexity that I'm willing to bypass.  Some people jump from airplanes or climb cliffs or do motocross - I drive cars that don't have seatbelts.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

As a daily driver, the 1955-57 Chevrolet probably has the best aftermarket parts supply out there.

 

Probably a 1969 Camaro, actually. You can build one today from all brand new parts.

[1912Staver]

1969's seem to command very high prices.  You could move up to a 71-2-3 and probably save a fair bit on initial cost. Much the same car under the sheetmetal.  

 Came close to buying a very rust free 1975 El Camino about 4 years ago. Really kicking myself now. Price was by current standards dirt cheap. $2500.00 asking and seller was reasonably motivated. I expect $2000.00 { Canadian } would have bought it  Lots of  wear , a work truck to be sure.  But as far as I could see 99% rust free , original paint. 250 -6 and a 3 speed standard.  It would have lasted me to the end of my days.

 Would a 292 bolt in ? 

[Pfeil]

50 minutes ago, Bills Auto Works said:

 

 

 

  You beat me to it Sir!

 

       If I was going to drive an old car everyday, it would be about a 70-72 Nova with a 250 -6 cyl & a "glide" .with P.S. & P.B. I hate AC, but you could get it if you wanted. Great mileage & enough power to get through traffic. Find a western body that is rust-free, paint it nice & keep it inside & clean..It will last forever! The only modifications needed would be an HEI ignition, a less restrictive air cleaner & a less restrictive muffler! I have had several of these types of cars over the years & they were dependable & easy to drive!

 

God Bless

Bill

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nationwide-single-car-transport-hauling-open-or-enclosed.614419/

 

 

My choice would be the 75-79. It has the suspension of 2nd generation Camaro-Firebird and its front steer instead of rear steer, already has HEI, and the 250 and at sea level will do an honest 100mph. This car of mine is still in its original paint, interior, rear brakes, 2nd set of front pads, carb never been rebuilt, engine never been apart, trans never apart(T350), posi. rear end never been apart. It has the complete original exhaust including cat, at Idle .02% CO, 20PPM HC, cruise .00-.05% CO (sometimes it won't measure) and 20PPM HC. 

A 46-year-old, 115,000+ car that gets if careful 26mpg on 87 octane 10% ethanol that I special ordered new. I just drove it today! See below, it's Oldsmobile's version.

 even the engine is in original paint 

[John348]

53 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Probably a 1969 Camaro, actually. You can build one today from all brand new parts.

 

You can, but you can also buy a pretty new car that you don't care about (as accidents theft etc.) for much less, one painted in fifty shades of grey. Try driving that resto-mod Camaro, or a tri-five Chevy home in 3" of snow in metro city area in rush hour. it all depends on where you live and how you need to use it. Or driving home on 95 degree day with no A/C? Do we all forget our windows fogging up in the rain? That was good when everyone's windows fogged up, but now everyone is on their cell phone and doing everything BUT drive and look out for another vehicle. If you live in a rural area and use the vehicle when you want to use it that is different, but to depend on a full demand vehicle in this day and age there are a lot of personal factors that you need to figure in.   

[Rivguy]

I had all these thoughts when I had some trouble with my 2007 Mustang, which seemed to have a body computer issue. I have a 2017 Ford which has keyless entry/starting lots of times the car doesn't recognize the key module and I have to wave it around in front of the door to get in. Most of the accessories are controlled through the video screen, somewhat annoying since it's hard to manipulate when driving. 

My '96 Mustang has been pretty trouble free with 218,000 miles on it but it still has electronic engine controls. Never had a problem with any of my fuel injected cars all the way back to my '77 Datsun Z.

A few years back I had a '70 Mustang with a 250 six that was pretty simple but didn't get very good gas mileage only 15 mpg. carefully driven. It also wasn't the most reassuring to drive with so few safety features.  

I think the best advice was to get a vintage car that you like, then get an older Toyota that you can use as a winter car and back up.

[StanleyRegister]

2 hours ago, Bills Auto Works said:

God Bless

Bill

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nationwide-single-car-transport-hauling-open-or-enclosed.614419/

 

 

Hi Bill,  You hauled my Paige up from Florida!  I was highly satisfied.  Way better than some brokered open-trailer nomad.

 

And thanks for the personal experience info on an "old" car.

[joe_padavano]

33 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

You can, but you can also buy a pretty new car that you don't care about (as accidents theft etc.) for much less, one painted in fifty shades of grey. Try driving that resto-mod Camaro, or a tri-five Chevy home in 3" of snow in metro city area in rush hour. it all depends on where you live and how you need to use it. Or driving home on 95 degree day with no A/C? Do we all forget our windows fogging up in the rain? That was good when everyone's windows fogged up, but now everyone is on their cell phone and doing everything BUT drive and look out for another vehicle. If you live in a rural area and use the vehicle when you want to use it that is different, but to depend on a full demand vehicle in this day and age there are a lot of personal factors that you need to figure in.   

I wasn't suggesting the Camaro as the answer to the OP's search, simply pointing out that it probably has the best parts availability.

[Frank DuVal]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

My choice would be the 75-79.

I agree with Nova or other variants of those years. But, with the 305 and AC! Ever since the heart issues, AC is a must on daily driver for me. I had a 77 Nova in beige with worn out seat springs, so the wife hated it. Bought it from an estate with 65 K on it. Drove it, loaned it (made sure to tell insurance company) long time to friends, and sold it with 200 K on it. I always wanted to paint it two tone (not beige) and reupholster (and springs) with comfortable fabric, sort of a version of the early Seville. But, wife outvoted me.😁 It had the 80 MPH speedometer, so it saw a lot of time at L1 and L2 on the speedometer....

Edited October 13, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

I was cutting grass at my mothers yesterday when her neighbor came out to tell me about his new truck. Ford Lightning, all electric. It is beyond anything I could imagine in a pickup truck. Makes me want to get a lottery ticket. BUT, I am pushing 60, and figure if I continue to get a new (used) to me truck every 10 years at 20k, I will still come out way ahead of the $110k price of one!!

[John348]

28 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

I wasn't suggesting the Camaro as the answer to the OP's search, simply pointing out that it probably has the best parts availability.

I get it, all cool. What your saying makes sense if one were to take that route all one would need is a credit card and cell phone and the part would be there the next day, Mustang's and Camaro's are the new Model A's as far as part's resources. 

[STEVE POLLARD]

23 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

I will still come out way ahead of the $110k price of one!!

Wow, I had no idea... that's why I purchased my 53 year old truck last year for under $18K....it's perfect for my needs!

 

Steve

 

[MikeC5]

If you don't need a lot of utility, an early Mustang would seem to be a good choice.  You can even start with a new body shell.  Some of the rust problems may very well be down to poor design for water drainage but also keep in mind that the 'rust proofing' was pretty crude back then as well.  I would think if you can start with something un-rusted, a thorough, modern rustproofing would greatly reduce the problem.  I'm talking about improved coatings, getting it into all hidden cavities, etc.  And then for another layer of protection, do annual fluid film-type of oil/wax spray under there.  

[SC38dls]

Do it right go prewar! 😳

dave s 

[mcdarrunt]

If you walked into my shop with this "dreamers fantasy" idea I would say we could build it for about $500k. It would have zero iron/steel but a carbon fiber floor pan (Indy car style) with everything attached to it being stainless steel, carbon fiber, or plastic. Weigh under 2000#'s and have fuel sipping 4 banger. All cables, brake/fuel lines, driveshaft, fuel tank also of rust proof material. Could it be done---yes but those that dream should be willing to pay big.

[Lahti35]

16 hours ago, STEVE POLLARD said:

Wow, I had no idea... that's why I purchased my 53 year old truck last year for under $18K....it's perfect for my needs!

Same here, when my '68 F250 rolls out of the garage this spring it will be everything I'll need. I watched some towing videos of those new lightnings and for the price I was severely underwhelmed. They can't do the work a truck should be able to with ease, they've got a long way to go before they can go head to head with a gas or diesel unit.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Lahti35 (see edit history)

[Littlestown Mike]

On 10/12/2022 at 9:59 AM, EmTee said:

1983 Mercedes 300D

The 5 cyl turbocharged Diesel and its transmission are very nearly bullet-proof.  The body---maybe--check for rust in the jack points.  I prefer the 300SD as the W126 chassis is very well refined.  OTOH, these are COMPLEX cars--2 separate vacuum systems and the one for the locking system is located in the trunk where 30 years of moisture have not been kind to the electronic circuits. Routine maintenance is pretty simple.  Keep spare fuel filters on hand. Diesel fuel doesn't go bad like modern gas does, but it is expensive.  And remember--"Nothing is as expensive as a cheap Mercedes"  ( deferred maintenance is a killer)

 

[Littlestown Mike]

I have been mulling over a similar thought.  I really like the '65-67 Ford Galaxie LTDs.  Comfortable and quiet.  Big Block Ford 390 is a simple engine, with readily available parts and can be built to deliver power or economy ( sort of).  The car is  relatively simple--all pluses.  Then a friend on another forum who REALLY loves these cars burst my bubble when he mentioned that Ford lowered the nickel content on the frames for these years and frame rust is a MAJOR concern.  The guy that told me this still loves these cars and will buy one, remove the body, slice the frame in half and weld in all new steel for the bottom half of the frame---a drastic solution but it solves the problem---and well beyond my skill set.  
Now I am looking at the early Panther chassis "boxes", but there are no longer simple cars.

Peugeot 504--a lifetime car--except for that darned heater motor.  It must have been the first part on the assembly line.

 

[EmTee]

When I lived in CA in the early '80s I seriously considered buying a new 300D and keeping it for 30 years.  It would have been a big bite up-front, but I'm sure I would have come out ahead in the end.  Ultimately I decided against it as I could already hear my wife grousing about having that 'old car' once it turned 5 years old...

Edited October 14, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[MarkV]

Any 1970s Lincoln Mark IV or V or Town Car

Early 80s imperial with a carb conversion. (Great 318) 

any 1957-1963 Imperial (good sized trunk)

[plymouthcranbrook]

I have a 1980 Plymouth Volare four door sedan with the slant six and automatic.  Mine has about 33,000 miles on it now but runs perfectly and is really reliable.  Milage is about 20 on the highway and somewhat less in town.  Easy to repair and what few parts I have needed have been readily available. Smog equipment of course, but in Il. unless it is OBII there are no tests.  If it wasn’t for crappy winters here I would love to drive it year round.  As JackM has said, a properly cared for slant six and torque flite will last forever. 

[drhach]

13 hours ago, mcdarrunt said:

If you walked into my shop with this "dreamers fantasy" idea I would say we could build it for about $500k. It would have zero iron/steel but a carbon fiber floor pan (Indy car style) with everything attached to it being stainless steel, carbon fiber, or plastic. Weigh under 2000#'s and have fuel sipping 4 banger. All cables, brake/fuel lines, driveshaft, fuel tank also of rust proof material. Could it be done---yes but those that dream should be willing to pay big.

If you charged going rate for your labor you'd have to charge way than $500K.

[SC38dls]

My brother has a 69 MB diesel with over 300,000 on BBB it no rust! Nut he lives in SanDiego but inland never takes it to the beach. 
dave s 

[Ed Luddy]

23 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

I have been mulling over a similar thought.  I really like the '65-67 Ford Galaxie LTDs.  Comfortable and quiet.  Big Block Ford 390 is a simple engine, with readily available parts and can be built to deliver power or economy ( sort of).  The car is  relatively simple--all pluses.  Then a friend on another forum who REALLY loves these cars burst my bubble when he mentioned that Ford lowered the nickel content on the frames for these years and frame rust is a MAJOR concern.  The guy that told me this still loves these cars and will buy one, remove the body, slice the frame in half and weld in all new steel for the bottom half of the frame---a drastic solution but it solves the problem---and well beyond my skill set.  
Now I am looking at the early Panther chassis "boxes", but there are no longer simple cars.

Peugeot 504--a lifetime car--except for that darned heater motor.  It must have been the first part on the assembly line.

 

The frames on the 65-7 Ford's were rusty by the early 70's up here in the salt belt. Had a 1966 Galaxie 500 convertible that had been welded up twice by 1974.

[StanleyRegister]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:32 PM, drhach said:

If you charged going rate for your labor you'd have to charge way than $500K.

What would you say would be the single largest component of that $500K?  That would be the first place I could consider a compromise.

[Littlestown Mike]

22 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

The frames on the 65-7 Ford's were rusty by the early 70's up here in the salt belt. Had a 1966 Galaxie 500 convertible that had been welded up twice by 1974.

Makes it kind of a scary proposition to buy one of those, doesn't it.  Maybe one from the dessert, but then all the vinyl will be toast. 

[8E45E]

Jim Richardson's column in November's HCC is a 'must read' for anyone interested in this topic.

 

Craig

[Ed Luddy]

2 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

Makes it kind of a scary proposition to buy one of those, doesn't it.  Maybe one from the dessert, but then all the vinyl will be toast. 

Yes. Buy 2. An Arizona dry car and a Canadian rust bucket for the interior and make one car.

[Littlestown Mike]

4 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

Yes. Buy 2. An Arizona dry car and a Canadian rust bucket for the interior and make one car.

I wouldn't be the first to have done that.  I know a guy who probably has close to $100K--parts and his labor-- into a '67 Galaxie LTD, knowing that he will never recoup that $$.  That identifies him, to me, as a true hobbyist--the very best kind.  His workmanship is beyond outstanding, but it is his passion.