Barrett Jackson auction

[alsancle]

33 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Is that where this quote originated?  Someone is credited in just about every collectible hobby I have been exposed to. 😯😉😁

First time I heard it was Dean Kruse, sometime in the early 90s.

[Cadillac Fan]

There is a ton of money sloshing around out there. 
 

 

feels like early 1989 to me.  That B&S Duesenberg that World Wide sold for $2.2 million was sold at Auburn for $745k in 2018.  

[Walt G]

Values, prices etc BUT will we ever see any of them in use on tours? Or will they be restricted to just be carried my trailers to well known Concours of merit ( I will not define merit as every one has their own level, idea of that) to be displayed as fine jewelry and like jewelry be hidden away until the next premier social event .  Our hobby has turned into a investment level business where although the cars are still appreciated they are not respected for what they were made to do - drive down the road. Times change.

I liked it better when I could attend a car show like the Fairfield County Region HCCA event in NW Ct. where Old 16 would show up driven from its home under its own power , several Duesenberg model J's would also be there , Cadillac V16's and even 1934 Packard LeBaron coupe ( which I was a passenger in to get there at least once or more) all driven in to attend. Yes, the cars were valuable then a$ well but the owners weren't afraid to drive /use them either.  The way we were and the way we are now.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Walt G (see edit history)

[32tatra]

I did not watch BJ this year.  But when I do, I find it kind of depressing,, because I don't have that kind of money.  I just wish a few of these guys with deep pockets, would walk by my spot at Hersey, and spend money like that, on  some of the stuff I am selling.  I would sell a 1959 issue of Motor Trend for $200,  In place I  get the other guys, the type who would beat me up and leave me on the ground to get a dollar off a part !!!!   If you ask me what the meaning of the work rich is.  I would say, someone who can buy a antique car at a auction, over pay and not care about it!!!

And the really rich, buy that same car, overpay and take it and spend thousands more having work done on it.

What did my parents do wrong???

[60FlatTop]

29 minutes ago, Walt G said:

Our hobby has turned into a investment level business

In 1971, maybe '70, the ACD club held one of the first collector car auctions. That was concurrent with the Nixon administration and a somewhat flippant attitude toward the nation's debt. A lot of tangible investments surged forward over the fluff the Federal Reserve was offering for investment. The collectibles are markets that had not existed at the high levels before and it has proven to be a resilient marketplace. Even as the nation has lost wealth over the past few decades the market has stayed strong and modest levels that allow the showmanship and vaudeville acts to continue, right there with professional wrestling.

 

This topic is not over yet, but it could be wrapped up neatly:

This term expresses the skeptical view that something so seemingly fine must have something wrong with it. The term was part of the title of Thomas Lupton's Sivquila; Too Good to be True (1580).

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

 There is a certain mentality at an auction that I cannot explain. I understand where Matt is coming from with the Chevelle example and have even consigned items to auctions myself because an item simply wouldn't sell. Sometimes things bring much, much more at auction than trying to sell thru a private sale. I had a hit and miss engine a few years ago that was fairly common and although it was on a nice cart it was not running. I drug it all over the place to steam and gas shows trying to sell it for $300. I got plenty of stupid offers and I finally gave up and consigned it to a local auction and it brought $550! I have seen people pay more for guns and even common objects (like a shovel or rake) than what it would cost to go buy it new!

  Of course there is a whole different ballgame going on at auctions like Mecum or BJ that I will never understand and most of us don't see. These are wealthy people and they may be buying simply to flaunt that wealth or maybe even for tax purposes. Who knows? For the common man however it is simply not reality, just entertainment.

[Walt G]

4 hours ago, 32tatra said:

I  get the other guys, the type who would beat me up and leave me on the ground to get a dollar off a part !!!! 

They must visit me after they visit you ! They all belong to the "Do Betta, I'll give jaz " Club . Makes me wonder if they try to negotiate the cost after they fill up their gas tank, go to pay for a meal in a drive through burger joint,  visit the AACA display that sells great t shirts etc., or at a toll booth to go over a bridge or argue about a traffic ticket?

[TTR]

OK, gentlemen, let me try to make this very clear. 

Believing that these outrageous prices at specialty car auctions, especially those on TV, are all real and that someone “with more money than brains” actually pay such monies is like believing in Santa Claus or Tooth Fairies.

 

99% or more of these “crazy results” are just marketing gimmicks developed and employed by auction companies to make people talk about (especially in forums dedicated for such vehicles, like this one) and eventually consign cars with them in (false) hope of a big pay day. 

While there are plenty of wealthy folks doing inconceivable (or stupid) stuff all the time, there aren’t that many spending their money on cars that nobody else would. 
 

Again, until someone (any of you ?) provides me with verifiable proof of these crazy money prices actually being paid, I continue to believe they are just BS, nothing more, nothing less.

 

And this same BS has been going on for as long as I can remember.

I recall 30+ years ago people being flabbergasted about some absolutely insane prices (allegedly) being paid at BJ’s and other similar circuses. 
With the introduction of internet/online and TV productions, it all became and will continue to be even more inevitable.
Production of on-going and sustainable content isn’t cheap.
 

Edited January 31, 2022 by TTR (see edit history)

[Cadillac Fan]

24 minutes ago, TTR said:

OK, gentlemen, let me try to make this very clear. 

Believing that these outrageous prices at specialty car auctions, especially those on TV, are all real and that someone “with more money than brains” actually pay such monies is like believing in Santa Claus or Tooth Fairies.

 

99% or more of these “crazy results” are just marketing gimmicks developed and employed by auction companies to make people talk about (especially in forums dedicated for such vehicles, like this one) and eventually consign cars with them in (false) hope of a big pay day. 

While there are plenty of wealthy folks doing inconceivable (or stupid) stuff all the time, there aren’t that many spending their money on cars that nobody else would. 
 

Again, until someone (any of you ?) provides me with verifiable proof of these crazy money prices actually being paid, I continue to believe they are just BS, nothing more, nothing less.

 

And this same BS has been going on for as long as I can remember.

I recall 30+ years ago people being flabbergasted about some absolutely insane prices (allegedly) being paid at BJ’s and other similar circuses. 
With the introduction of internet/online and TV productions, it all became and will continue to be even more inevitable.
Production of on-going and sustainable content isn’t cheap.
 

 

Are you suggesting that rm auction, bonhams, Mecum, etc are running conspiracies where the buyer/seller/auction house are falsifying prices paid for cars?   
 

Can you provide any evidence to back that up?  

 

I

[jrbartlett]

I bought a Duesenberg in 2011 and the price publicly reported by the well-known auction house was exactly what I had actually paid.

 

  

[60FlatTop]

As long as one can define the difference between a suggestion and an accusation the games will go on.

 

Everyone goes home happy. Sport marketing is what I called it after my enlightenment to the games people play. Even the ones who watch and only complain have a good time in their own way.

[pkhammer]

  Maybe TRR is exactly right and the whole thing is just a big put-on show and none of those huge televised sales actually happen except only for the cameras. On the other hand, there are plenty of millionaires (and billionaires) out there that are maybe just having a good time or like I stated above making some fun purchases for tax purposes. If a man makes $1 million per year, his take-home AFTER taxes is around $2,000 per day. Putting myself in the shoes of a man that takes home $2,000 per day I just might be right there among those fellas drinking, laughing and high-fiving when I drop a few hundred thousand on my next toy. 

  If 200 of you will get together and send me a mere $10 per day for a year I will go to BJ next year and infiltrate the auction and report back here my findings, with photos of my purchases. 😃😄😁

[Peter Gariepy]

Even if the prices are exorbitant, there is nothing nefarious or illegal going on. Buyers CHOOSE to bid, they are not forced.

 

If you don't like auctions or the prices then don't attend or bid. Simple as that.

 

It's one thing to dislike auctions and what you perceive as exorbitant pricing.  It's another thing to make public accusations of pervasive fraud on the entire industry (without proof). It's simply conspiracy theory and has no place in this forum.

 

 

[arcticbuicks]

Been to many auctions and there is something about a certain two guys that are two of the same bidding on a car ….and suddenly the car is not relevant…….but rather becomes …..I’m not letting him outbid me ! ……not that they are even showing off to the public …….just more like it becomes a situation between the two bidders  for whatever reason that the two bidders are not going to lose 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Peter is right.  From what I have actually experienced at auctions things appear to be honest.  All the cars we have sold and all the dealings we have had charity wise were as advertised.  All my friends cars sold for what was reported and some did well and others not do so well.  I spent a little time on bidding at memorabilia auctions on the net in Indiana and Ohio this weekend and I was pretty much blown away by the interest in "stuff".  The bidding was very active.  I sure did not get a few items I wanted.  The car market seems very strong based upon all the auctions this past week in Arizona as well.  I will never venture to anyone what a particular restomod is worth!

 

If you think about it, the auction houses and owners have a lot to lose if fraud is going on.  The business is just too big and too lucrative for some of the things that went on when I first started attending auctions 20 plus years ago.  At that time it was very blatant particularly with a certain auction which I am guessing you all know!

 

Count me in to be amazed at the prices but there is a lot of disposable income out there and a lot of folks who made a killing in the market.  If you want to see prices come down, I will start to sell my cars and I can guarantee you the prices will drop.  I am the original buy high sell low guy!

 

Just my opinion.

[John Bloom]

i blame Survivor and The Bachelor. 
 

 

[1937hd45]

I've been from here to there by boat, NEVER had a desire to own one, do they have boat auctions? 

[Terry Bond]

It's great entertainment but the auction game is like a whole different part of the hobby to some folks I think.  Like the daily news, the media tends to focus on the outrageous, and that means the sky-high prices.  The auction companies of course have vested interest as it's a business for them, and if the publicity drives prices ever-higher, so goes the profitability of the enterprise. 

 

I watch with interest, but can't squeeze in any more cars, so like Steve, it's the memorabilia that attracts me.  Over the past couple of years there have been some significant collections of automobilia sold through on-line auctions.  I've been a frequent lurker and sometimes, even a player.  Much to my surprise I've snagged a few goodies, but sometimes there is just too much money out there to compete with.  For some of us, it gets tough when you factor in the buyers premium, credit card surcharges, handling, packing and shipping.  A $50 item can quickly become near a hundred bucks worth. 

 

At a big porcelain sign auction a while back I sat beside a guy who was buying lots of stuff and was tossing big sums at some of the items he bought.  Later when it was all over, I encountered him out back loading his box truck.  I commented on some of the great signs he had bought, and he climbed down and told me he was thrilled with the sale.  He had collected cars all his life, and had just sold his business so had some disposable bucks.  When he remarked that after working his butt off for 40 years, he would at last have time to enjoy his toys, and decorate his garage, my attitude changed quickly.  He wasn't a "big shot" he was just a car guy, and was going to enjoy his hobby.  More power to them.

[JamesR]

24 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

i blame Survivor and The Bachelor. 
 

 

Me too...and for a lot more than just high old car prices! 😄

[Walt G]

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

I've been from here to there by boat, NEVER had a desire to own one, do they have boat auctions? 

I like boats, big boats but not the kind that float on water - the 7 passenger kind that have side mounts and a trunk rack with a trunk on it and their river to travel on is paved and hopefully dry - getting to "mature in years" ( how's that one for you) to lay on the ground and wipe dirt off the bottom of the fenders, or to lazy.......................

[8E45E]

The Studebaker National Museum tried their best to have one of five 1931 Studebaker Special Indy cars for the museum.  It was bid over twice as much as what the SNM could afford to pay: 

 

Indy car #37 sold at pebble Beach - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

1931 Indy car: a last look before the auction - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

Craig

[rocketraider]

"Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me."

 

F. Scott Fitzgerald 

"The Rich Boy", 1926

 

Lot of economic parallels between 1926 and the present.

[8E45E]

7 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Lot of economic parallels between 1926 and the present.

They didn't have credit on everything in 1926 to the extent there is now.

 

One can certainly appear 'materially rich' these days, but everything they own is not paid for in full.

 

Craig

[Steve Moskowitz]

So B-J announced a 203 Million dollar sale!  A record but what really caught my eye, not surprisingly was the memorabilia sales in the millions as well.  The top sellers were as follows:

 

1953 Ford Jubilee Neon Porcelain Sign (Lot #9491) – $460,000 (world auction record for a neon sign)

1950s to Early 1960s Disneyland Donald Duck Ride (Lot #9488.1) – $172,500 (world auction record for a kiddie ride)

1940s-50s Mobil Oil Neon Porcelain Sign (Lot #9495.2) – $161,000

1930s Kelly Tires Sign (Lot #9470) – $155,250

1940s Greyhound Bus Lines Tin Sign with Animated Neon (Lot #8492.4) – $149,500

 

I have spent what I thought was stupid money on items that I wanted badly for my collection but now thinking maybe my heirs will really profit!!  Wow, who would have ever "thunk"?

[TAKerry]

We drive by an old Mobil station just about every night. There is a large pegasus lit sign high on the building. It looks to be in perfect condition. I used to tell my son that kind of stuff is valuable. He started to mimic me and when we pass he will say 'I bet that sure is valuable'. I suppose it really is now!!

[TerryB]

Morphy auctions Lancaster county

 

[Avanti Bill]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:04 PM, TTR said:

OK, gentlemen, let me try to make this very clear. 

Believing that these outrageous prices at specialty car auctions, especially those on TV, are all real and that someone “with more money than brains” actually pay such monies is like believing in Santa Claus or Tooth Fairies.

 

99% or more of these “crazy results” are just marketing gimmicks developed and employed by auction companies to make people talk about (especially in forums dedicated for such vehicles, like this one) and eventually consign cars with them in (false) hope of a big pay day. 

While there are plenty of wealthy folks doing inconceivable (or stupid) stuff all the time, there aren’t that many spending their money on cars that nobody else would. 
 

Again, until someone (any of you ?) provides me with verifiable proof of these crazy money prices actually being paid, I continue to believe they are just BS, nothing more, nothing less.

 

And this same BS has been going on for as long as I can remember.

I recall 30+ years ago people being flabbergasted about some absolutely insane prices (allegedly) being paid at BJ’s and other similar circuses. 
With the introduction of internet/online and TV productions, it all became and will continue to be even more inevitable.
Production of on-going and sustainable content isn’t cheap.
 

The auctions are real and the prices are real, they may not be smart, but the money changes hands at the price posted plus the vig.  Now when you agree to bid you agree in the bidding documents the the auction company can run the bid up on you, it is right there in the fine print.  While I have bought cars at auction I think it is about the worst way to purchase a car.  Hard to inspect, hard to talk to the owner and you have to be very careful you know who or what you are bidding against.  There are exception of course and some auction houses are better than others but the term "buyer beware" should be in the forefront of your thinking.  One of the reasons the auctions are successful is the they draw large crowds of qualified buyers and in Scottsdale it is even more so.  People come from all over the world to purchase cars and there is an enormous amount of discretionary money out there to do just that.  In the end the smart buyer just has to have a maximum he is willing to spend and stick to that number.  The auctions are capitalism at its purest.

[Peter Gariepy]

3 minutes ago, Avanti Bill said:

... Now when you agree to bid you agree in the bidding documents the the auction company can run the bid up on you, it is right there in the fine print. 

 

https://barrettjacksoncdn.azureedge.net/staging/forms/9761.pdf

 

Sorry, but I don't see it.  Please enlighten us all.

[1937hd45]

Steve, I wonder if that Kelly Tire sign is the same one a friend bought years ago? As the story goes once he got the double sided sign home he removed the outer steel rim to clean it and it turned out to be TWO signs, artwork on one side and nothing on the back. He sold the side that was less perfect and recouped his $1,500. investment, crazy money at the time. So maybe there is another $155,250 sign out there. 

[Peter Gariepy]

BJ's bidder contact states:
(C) All Statements contained in any catalogs or advertisements of any type pertaining to the sale, including without limitation any statements concerning condition, genuineness or authenticity, origin or provenance, previous use or ownership, manufacturing or restoration processes, year or age, serial number, make, model or mileage of any Lot or of any component of any Lot, are provided by the Seller, not BJAC, and are either expressions of opinion or are for ease of identification only, and they are not to be relied upon by Buyer as representations of fact. Buyer assumes all risks associated with any nonconformity of any Lot or any component of any Lot. As a condition of participation in the auction, Buyer represents that he will conduct any inspections and examination necessary to satisfy himself of all material facts before making any bid. For vehicles with a Reserve, the auctioneer reserves the right to place bids for the consignor up to the reserve amount. 

 

BJ is generally a no-reserve auction, so that clause doesn't apply to most cars.

 

Mecum has the about the same wording in their agreement.

I dont see anything else that would be questionable.  Although I'll readily admit I'm not an attorney.

[Gunsmoke]

TRR started with "OK, gentlemen, let me try to make this very clear."

then finished up with "....until someone (any of you ?) provides me with verifiable proof of these crazy money prices actually being paid, I continue to believe they are just BS, nothing more, nothing less. ... And this same BS has been going on for as long as I can remember.

 

I just don't understand why any member of this august AACA forum feels the need to spout off without any proof alleging a multi-million dollar ongoing conspiracy. While healthy debate is always good, outrageous and unjustified claims should be policed more carefully and posters reminded that this is a site devoted to vintage automobiles and their history, and not intended as a site for uninformed, arbitrary or malicious non-sensical business bashing. I've enjoyed watching some great old cars (my preference is pre-war) cross the block at BJ for many years, in awe of many makes, and envious that some people appear to have lots of money to spend, and feeling happy sellers are getting a return on their investment, even if in most cases they still lose money. AACA forums should be places to comment on the cars that sell and what the market may look like, but trash bashing companies has got to be stopped if AACA's great reputation is to be maintained.

[Peter Gariepy]

10 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

...trash bashing companies has got to be stopped if AACA's great reputation is to be maintained.

 

Exactly why you, I and others have called his statements out.  Better to point out and call out his inaccurate statements than to delete the post and sweep the issue under the rug.

[alsancle]

You have deleted more than one post from this thread.

[John348]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

TRR started with "OK, gentlemen, let me try to make this very clear."

then finished up with "....until someone (any of you ?) provides me with verifiable proof of these crazy money prices actually being paid, I continue to believe they are just BS, nothing more, nothing less. ... And this same BS has been going on for as long as I can remember.

 

I just don't understand why any member of this august AACA forum feels the need to spout off without any proof alleging a multi-million dollar ongoing conspiracy. While healthy debate is always good, outrageous and unjustified claims should be policed more carefully and posters reminded that this is a site devoted to vintage automobiles and their history, and not intended as a site for uninformed, arbitrary or malicious non-sensical business bashing. I've enjoyed watching some great old cars (my preference is pre-war) cross the block at BJ for many years, in awe of many makes, and envious that some people appear to have lots of money to spend, and feeling happy sellers are getting a return on their investment, even if in most cases they still lose money. AACA forums should be places to comment on the cars that sell and what the market may look like, but trash bashing companies has got to be stopped if AACA's great reputation is to be maintained.

AMEN GUNSMOKE!  Why have some become so concerned how someone spends their own money? Who is anyone to presume that the buyer is drunk, reckless, and or clueless because it's decided on this site that they overpaid for a car, because it is more then they feel it is worth?  I have a good friend of mine who has the resources and has been a telephone bidder at B/J and Mecum. He does his home work well in advance weeks prior to the auction, even has quotes for shipping, pays for two, sometimes three separate appraisals. He has not won any yet, but his feelings are "money is time and time is money, I would pay to have the appraisal's done either way if I were there, and the cars are prime time cars so not going to be junk"  Just because there is a lot of money being spent does not mean it is fake, there a lot of people with a lot of money out there      

 

    

Edited February 2, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

One of the peculiarities of popular "culture" is that it confuses financial success with some sort of universal expertise. A person could easily be a success in business while being abysmally ignorant of nearly everything else. (Henry Ford was probably the most striking example of that.) Even without the circus-like hype, alcohol and the narcissistic desire to be "seen on tv" auctions often bring out a wide variety of customers. I know of two very significant arms collections put together by very successful doctors, both of whom relied on dealer/experts for advice. Suffice it to say that in one case the dealer went to prison for fraud and the auction of the other collection brought a very disappointing result. Why, because there simply weren't enough wealthy but uninformed buyers to sustain stratospheric prices for some very questionable material. Personally, I would count watching one of those circus auctions as wasted time. I'd rather watch paint dry...

 

Old cars are a very specialized subject, one that easily takes years to be comfortable with. The participants here almost certainly have 100 times the experience that 99% of the bidders at the BJ auction have. We'd do better to thumb our nose at them but too many people want to believe they'll be able to retire on the proceeds from their bondo-filled 56 Chevy...

[rusty12]

As an interesting side note, a friend just received a contract from RM/Sotheby's regarding consigning a car to an upcoming auction. In the contract-to paraphrase- was a statement that saidRM will be issuing a IRS form (1099? I think? ) for all sellers at the end of the year. This means RM is reporting all sales to the IRS. If RM is doing this, I assume all the companies are doing this as well. Based on that, Barrett, Mecum, and everyone else must  be playing it pretty legal nowadays. They can't post a car being sold for 500K  if they are only paying the seller 250K. Barrett can't be posting 200+ million dollars in sales if they are reporting numbers to the government that are significantly less than that. 

 

I was at Scottsdale Barrett Jackson. I really didn't see anything amiss other than people had lots of money to spend on cars. It was a good day for the sellers and the auction company-and for the buyers that got something they wanted. Barrett builds an incredible platform to market cars. Mecum and Barrett spend WAY WAY WAY more money to produce an auction than the "boutique" companies do. Barret and Mecum don't just sell cars-they market them and have created an automotive lifestyle that their clients support. The other auctions companies do not do this. Big difference. You get what you pay for. 

 

A few years ago, RM was doing 80 to 100 million at their Scottsdale auction and Barret was barely doing a 100 million.. This year RM did about 43 million and Barrett did over 200 million. Like I said, a big difference between marketing and selling and creating a market and following a market. Leaders lead, followers fall behind. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by rusty12 (see edit history)

[brasscarguy2]

It's often said a fool and his money are soon parted. My question is where did the fool get his money in the 1st place?.

The Mid America auction this year seemed to me to sell most entries at realistic values. If you look at their listed cars and the selling prices.

 

Seems B/J got in a bit of trouble a few years ago over serving their buyers with drinks. The State Police wrote a number of DUI's when the auction was over. This was written up a few years back . Nothing like liquor to loosen up wallets and good sense.

 

Buyer beware the base line of an auction. just sayin.

 

brasscarguy

 

 

[TAKerry]

This thread reminds me of a fellow car collector I know. He has three REALLY nice muscle cars that are def. in the mid to upper range value wise. He is retired now but owned a small family business and worked hard for what he has. He would get furious over watching the auctions. He could not understand where people got the money to spend millions on a single car. I would try to tell him not to worry about that end of it. How someone gets the money or spends it is their business and more power to them. Again, the irony is that any of his three cars would easily hit 6 figures at one of these auctions.

 

I havent been to a CAR auction, but is there not a preview period where one can look a car over? I have always done good buying at auctions but you must be aware of what you are doing.

[alsancle]

BJ is the one that gets everybody’s panties in a knot. I’ve bid on two cars there in my life, both times muscle cars, both times probably the only opportunity to purchase that type of car. And both times my dad started warning me, questioning the value of the cars. And both times they went for twice my max number and I thought I was at retail.

 

If you have a great muscle car, you can stomach the no reserve risk, that’s the place to sell. Nobody talks about the mediocre cars that sell for less than wholesale at 11 PM on Wednesday night. 
 

I also question why anyone would buy a run-of-the-mill car there during prime time. You’re paying double retail.

[8E45E]

44 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

This thread reminds me of a fellow car collector I know. He has three REALLY nice muscle cars that are def. in the mid to upper range value wise. He is retired now but owned a small family business and worked hard for what he has. He would get furious over watching the auctions. He could not understand where people got the money to spend millions on a single car. I would try to tell him not to worry about that end of it. How someone gets the money or spends it is their business and more power to them. Again, the irony is that any of his three cars would easily hit 6 figures at one of these auctions.

Maybe he's worried that his grandkids will only see the 'gold' in them and simply flip them when he passes, and not appreciate them for what they really are.

 

Craig