Barrett Jackson auction

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

How someone gets the money or spends it is their business and more power to them.

 

When auctions publicize absurdly high prices,

or dealers ask ludicrous amounts, I believe it is

very harmful to the old-car hobby.  It dashes

people's hopes.

 

Numerous times, I have shown interested people my cars

and pointed out how affordable most old cars can be.

These people, interested in cars but not yet in the

hobby, very often respond, "I had no idea!"  They didn't

realize that nice old cars were within their budgets,

because they saw all the $100,000 hype on television.

 

We need to get the message out:  The hobby is fun for

ordinary people, not only high-rollers.

[Steve Moskowitz]

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2022/02/02/scottsdale-auctions-2022-wrap-up-record-sales?refer=news&utm_source=edaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-02-02

 

John, you are right in the fact that we need to let people know that there are very affordable cars available but these auctions are a fact of life and a part of the hobby.  We just need to learn to coexist and do a better job of promoting affordable cars where possible.  The case also can be made that TV coverage helps in some way to promote our hobby and the history of the motorcar (when the commentary is correct!).  If our cars were not increasing in value there would be a lot of hand wringing by some folks.

[mdh7475]

Even if I was interested in watching a bunch of destroyed original cars turned to ridiculous restomods I cant take the endless barrage of commercials!!  

[Peter Gariepy]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

You have deleted more than one post from this thread.

2 actually.  Related to PPP.  Getting political. Against forum rules.

[76 Caddy]

Remember it was their 50th anniversary.  I just assumed that was the reason for all the "high" prices.

I record it then fast forward through the commercials and Steve Magnante (cannot listen to him talk).

 

Tim

[rocketraider]

I've long said the high-profile auctions have damaged the old car hobby because they 1) infer cars are the province of only the very rich, 2) convey that old cars are to be viewed strictly as investments and 3) have convinced every yahoo with a rusted-out hulk that they're sitting on a gold mine.

 

I'm also one who considers ostentation and excessive hype to be highly offensive and ungentlemanly. The big auctions bring out the absolute worst of both.

[Walt G]

27 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

The case also can be made that TV coverage helps in some way to promote our hobby and the history of the motorcar (when the commentary is correct!).

Steve your last part of the statement you made says it all THANK YOU - much of the time recently is is easier to present hearsay or opinion as correct, takes to much time to actually get the facts correct. Myth becomes fact if around long enough. The AACA and the Society of Automotive Historians are the primary sources of accurate history which is being botched up on a daily basis. Just look at the comments here on these great forums - statements made and some great people taking the time to correct, clarify or make clearer what has been stated. Moderators with patience that is outstanding etc.

[rocketraider]

14 minutes ago, Walt G said:

... is easier to present hearsay or opinion as correct, takes to much time to actually get the facts correct... Myth becomes fact if around long enough... accurate history which is being botched up on a daily basis.

Yeah, but hype sells cars faster!😄 Marketing 101!

 

I'm thankful there are people who strive to make sure accurate history is preserved and taught.

[Avanti Bill]

I am not trying to trash anyone or any company and I will say it has been about 4 or 5 years since I signed a bidders contract with BJ.  I think the following from the agreement you posted says it all and I am OK with it from a buyers point of view.

 

"Buyer hereby waives and releases BJAC from and against any claim, demand, liability, or expense of any kind arising out of or related to the Lot, expressly including without limitation any assertions of negligence (including negligent misrepresentation), breach of contract or breach of warranty."

 

I think your lawyer would tell you this covers it but I'm not a lawyer either.

[George Smolinski]

21 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

So B-J announced a 203 Million dollar sale

At 10% fee on both ends of the sale, once again, the big winner was B-J at $40,000,000+

[1937hd45]

56 minutes ago, George Smolinski said:

At 10% fee on both ends of the sale, once again, the big winner was B-J at $40,000,000+

I bet every hotel, restaurant, liquor store and trucker that hauled the cars in and back out is quite thankful. 

[72caddy]

39 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

I bet every hotel, restaurant, liquor store and trucker that hauled the cars in and back out is quite thankful. 

You left out insurance carrier 

[B Jake Moran]

5 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2022/02/02/scottsdale-auctions-2022-wrap-up-record-sales?refer=news&utm_source=edaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-02-02

 

  If our cars were not increasing in value there would be a lot of hand wringing by some folks.

This is an interesting comment.   In my opinion, that is all it is, an opinion, this sort of thinking has damaged inclusion in the hobby.  Just like buying real estate, or stocks or whatever, people always seem to assume they need to make money off the purchase or sale.  

 

But the old car hobby has evolved and many older folks purchased, restored and enjoyed their cars at a considerably lower price point.  Now they want big bucks for their cars by gawd because of the auctions and because their fellow member got such and such for their Mustang or 1957 Chevy or fill in the blank. 

 

Hand wringing?   What is wrong with making a little less or breaking even?   I have seldom made money on my old cars, usually losing between $2,000 and $5,000 on each one.   

 

I have owned 250 vehicles in the last 45 years and enjoyed the hobby.  But I am broke, lost about $150,000.  I am doing OK, and if I wanted a decent old car I could take a loan from my 401k or get a low interest loan to buy a car or truck to enjoy the hobby but I find it almost unreasonable to say that many folks are "hand wringing" about maybe "losing" money on their collections.  

 

What does that even mean?  How do you quantify or qualify it?  I mean some of these folks have had cars 20-40 years, long since paid off and enjoyed the heck out of the cars.  I think they should sell them for what they bought them for minus the years of enjoyment received.   

 

My last old car was a 1976 Cadillac Coupe deVille, 60,000 mile car.  It cost me $6,000.   By the way that's an example of buying right. 

 

I had to sell because of a divorce.  Say I didn't and kept it nice and enjoyed it for 10 more years then decided to sell.  According to the everything appreciates model, I would ask about double or $12,000.    Nonsense.  I would list it at $5,000 obo.  

 

How are you going to get any NEW blood in the hobby if all of our old cars are $25,000 to $40,000 or more?   When I was 35 I was buying projects and restoring them, or cheap drivers.  I could not afford a $25,000 car on my salary and obligations!  

 

Am I misunderstanding the "hand wringing" comment?  You can't take an old car to the next level so what is wrong with a market correction over the next 20 years?   Most of the guys I see hoisting hands to buy the Scottsdale resto-mods are salt and pepper dudes with guts bigger than mine!  They can enjoy or store that car for a few years then who knows?

Edited February 2, 2022 by B Jake Moran (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

People look at record-setting auction sales as a barometer of the hobby's health the same way people look at the stock market as a barometer of the economy's health.

 

Yes, it probably applies to the very rich. Everyone else? Not so much.

[B Jake Moran]

6 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Maybe he's worried that his grandkids will only see the 'gold' in them and simply flip them when he passes, and not appreciate them for what they really are.

 

Craig

Craig

As one who follows cars for sale daily and has for 20 years - not making me an expert by any means - I can say that anecdotally I have seen a huge uptick in the "next generation" selling Grandpa's or Dad's car as quickly after the death certificate is signed as possible. 

 

That's a macro statement, because as soon as I make this comment someone on here will make a different story.  Every day on Facebook I see it multiple times.  

 

In some cases, the owner (still Grandpa or Dad) is asking their grandson or daughter to place the ad before they die.    I had a good conversation with an elderly couple about their Corvette, a 16,000 mile 1987 convertible.  

 

"Why not pass it down to the next generation?"  I ask.   "Oh, (and there is a slight chuckle) they hate it and just want to play computer or phone games, we want to sell it because we are too old to comfortably get in and out and use the money doing something else." 

[B Jake Moran]

On 1/29/2022 at 8:43 PM, ted sweet said:

if dont like it dont watch.

Not the point Ted.    I know of very few people that sit and watch the auctions for hours on end, like a movie.  But the original poster plops down, turns on the auction and sees an interesting situation unfold.  It's a forum here, to discuss these things. 

[B Jake Moran]

On 1/30/2022 at 9:01 AM, 58L-Y8 said:

If you've ever spent any time at a wholesale used car auto auction, where buying vehicles for resale is the purpose, these collector car auctions are an unreal world circus.  Pure, intoxication-fueled, one-upmanship ego trips.

I think most of us are in agreement that it is hyperbole, maybe not even real.  But it would be nice to have "boots on the ground" to note what is truly real.   I have heard that there are some bargains, or at least well purchased cars in these auctions.  

[B Jake Moran]

On 1/31/2022 at 11:21 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Virtually any custom/resto-mod can be built for $250-300. If you paid $600,000 for a custom C2 Corvette resto-mod, you over-paid by at least a factor of 2. There's just no explaining it unless you're so impatient that you can't wait two years for the build. 

 

I was especially dismayed to see a certain green column shift/automatic/bench seat LS6 Chevelle that I [finally] sold a few months ago for just barely 6-figures sell easily at B-J for $300,000, a record for any LS6 Chevelle hardtop. Where was that fool when I was trying to sell it for nearly a year at $129,900?!? Again, WTF? The car didn't get $200,000 more valuable in two months.

 

There are a lot of new money millionaires in the US, and for that matter the world, which comes to these auctions.  They DO NOT want to wait 2 years for a resto mod build.  The premium they pay is seen as much more valuable.  

 

On the note of the LS6, and what that buyer did, I find that the worst part of the hobby, out and out greed.  Sure, in another discussion we can argue that is a good thing to have that freedom of capital in the US.   But I would feel soiled by that buyer who essentially flipped it.  

[B Jake Moran]

On 1/31/2022 at 1:14 PM, Walt G said:

Our hobby has turned into a investment level business where although the cars are still appreciated they are not respected for what they were made to do - drive down the road.

Well stated.  And in some cases they are not even appreciated.  Like some fine art and other collectibles, they are stored in the dark out of site until it is deemed they might appreciate, then they are loaded onto a trailer and taken to be sold.  Again. 

[Peter Gariepy]

25 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

People look at record-setting auction sales as a barometer of the hobby's health the same way people look at the stock market as a barometer of the economy's health.

BOOM!

[Ed Luddy]

6 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

BOOM!

Yes a BOOM is right according to the B-J and Mecum auctions of Jan 2022. Maybe by spring it will catch on here in the frozen tundra of Ontario.

 Not much going on around here!

[TAKerry]

B J sold something like a thousand cars. Some buyers may have bought multiples. Not all were million dollar cars. Compared to the population of the US and there may have been some foreign buyers, a relatively small number of people spending large amounts of money percentage wise. 

[John348]

On 1/31/2022 at 12:21 PM, Matt Harwood said:

There were a whole lot of people paying way too much for cars. I was absolutely flabbergasted by some of the results. Virtually any custom/resto-mod can be built for $250-300. If you paid $600,000 for a custom C2 Corvette resto-mod, you over-paid by at least a factor of 2. There's just no explaining it unless you're so impatient that you can't wait two years for the build. There was a terrifying amount of money being casually thrown around that I find completely inexplicable.............

Matt,

You hit it on the head I really feel it is a combination of several things contributing to what we are seeing. People are going there with the intent to purchase, and they know what they want to purchase. More than likely had the car looked at prior to coming to the auction, and had a price in their head, as well as a selection of other cars to choose from.  After what happened over the past two years maybe people are looking at their own mortality a lot differently and they have the money so why wait. I know I have been looking at my own future a lot different now. TV shows make it seem like having these cars built is a painless process and everything occurs in an hour, and the shop is overly concerned about meeting a deadline. Does anyone believe these shops are this accommodating after your car is there? This can take an two to three years, and a ton of BS waiting for it to get done. So while the buyer might be overpaying for the vehicle, it will be at their own house this week, with no grief. Do any of us know where we are going to be in 10 years? 5 years? 2 years? So, if anything we all should have learned time is priceless, so if someone can afford to catch up on lost time let them 

 

These vehicles are viewed by the buyers as no more of an investment then a $500K cabin cruiser, or paying $20K over sticker on a new Escalade, it is not viewed as a stock, mutual fund or piece of real estate. 

 

There was a phrase I believe I heard used at B/J when a guy was buying a lot of vehicles and it was said at the podium "he worked his whole life to build a dream building and now he is looking to fill it up"   

[TTR]

 

It appears (again) my comments or message they were intended to convey got misunderstood, probably due to English not being my first language and never having received any formal education for it (or anything else for that matter), so I wish to apologize for any confusion or offenses they may have caused here.

 

First, my comments weren’t intended as some wholesale “conspiracy theory” against ALL auction sales or reported results.

They were merely made in hopes of eliciting some common sense thinking and healthy dose of skepticism on these crazy/inexplicable sales, e.g. like someone allegedly paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for bling’d up resto-modded ‘6? Pontiac Corvair, ‘7?Jeep Cherokee, ‘8? Ford Van, etc vehicles which one can find countless comps available everywhere.

 

While I admittedly can’t offer any specific “proof” regarding my claims, or should I say suspicions about these inexplicable “results” (= achieved prices) being nothing more than bogus marketing gimmicks, I have been involved with this hobby for 4+ decades and more often than not, have not seen evidence suggesting otherwise.

 

Additionally in these past 40+ years I’ve met and know numerous wealthy, individuals involved in this hobby, but never met any of these “bidders/buyers/collectors” who would just throw money away, like has been claimed at these “reported result” prices at these circus-like events in past 30+ years.

 

Again, I am and have always been curious if anyone (here ?) personally know individuals that have been either the consignor or the “winning”(?) bidder at these “inexplicable” prices in past 30+ years I’ve been hearing  about them ?

Or have themselves been one or the other ?

 

Or, how many of these “off the chart” priced vehicles have anyone actually seen, weeks or months later, at some major (or even minor) events/shows with the new owner proudly exhibiting it to the worshipping masses ?

Given that these “winning(?) bidders” are generally perceived as egotistical “maniacs”(?), wouldn’t it make sense they’d like to show off their grand exploits at any chance available ?

 

Or, has anyone (here) had an opportunity to see “the books” of auction companies, allowing them to “follow the money” trails of these “inexplicable” transactions ?

 

If one stops and thinks about it a bit, it should be obvious that “reporting” A FEW (unverifiable ?) AMAZING results will keep publics interested focused on auctions and what (supposedly) happens in them (kind of like some follow other “reality” entertainment, incl. Kardashians or “professional” sports, etc ?). 

 

It should also be obvious that  it is auction companies, especially those with TV coverage, best interest for their own survival and sustainability to (self-)promote their own abilities to sell (some) vehicles at “inexplicable” prices so that individual car owners (enthusiasts/hobbyists ?) will consider consigning their car(s) with them (in hopes of bigger payout ?) instead of trying to sell it elsewhere or independently.

 

Also, it might be worthwhile to keep in mind that just about all automotive auction companies, including those specializing classic/collectible/vintage/etc vehicles are in the business of selling used cars, nothing more, nothing less. 

And if they can make it appear more circus-like with some amazing entertainment acts, it should be obvious more people are going to find them alluring**.

 

In my mind, all this is just business and marketing 101.

 

*How many here believe everything else they hear/read/see on the books/magazines, internet, movies or TV, etc. without ever questioning or wondering about legitimacy of it ?

Or how many here actually believe everything all other used car salesmen, advertisements or infomercial/telemarketing shows claim in their sales pitches, i.e. “This is the greatest sale event with best prices we ever offered, blah, blah, blah !”, etc…

 

Besides, who would sit & watch hours on end tons of mediocre (at best) old/used cars being auctioned off at mediocre (or below) prices if it wasn’t for some (faked ?) excitement, glitter & other BS sprinkled in between… 

… or …

… watch some of those car rebuilding(?) TV shows without scripted/edited “drama” (a la “Housewives” or “Kardashians” ?)  instead of hundreds or thousands of hours of mostly boring(?) hands-on/hard work it actually takes to get any of them done ?

 

Yeah, I understand all these TV shows are meant to & can be entertaining, but are really they all real/true ?

 

Just curious.

Or perhaps I just take this hobby too seriously ?

 

Rant over and out, thank you for reading.

 

 

 

[keithb7]

We went to BJ 5 years ago. For something different to do. Learned a lot about what’s really going on there. 
 

The best part was checking out all the staged cars outside under tents. Couple thousand if I recall. I spent 5-10 mins at the actual live auction floor. Checked out the millionaires bidding then went off to check out more static cars. 
 

I saw smoke & mirrors. I went. I saw. I’ve not watched another BJ auction on TV since.  I’m too busy turning wrenches on a $2500 mopar sedan. 

[rwchatham]

I am not saying  that sometimes cars do not get bid up but why do people have such a hard time believing the cars actually being sold for auction prices . Not everyone works 9-5 and lives paycheck to paycheck . There is a part of the population with large sums of expendable cash . Ask any restoration shop that is any good , the wait time to get in is years and people are throwing cash at them to get in . And comparing some of the cars sold to the average car on craigslist is ridiculous some of those cars have had huge budgets in the builds and bring large money when sold.  I laugh when i see some people call the buyers foolish for what they pay , maybe they are but at least they are in a position to do so , why knock them for that ?

[John348]

1 hour ago, rwchatham said:

I am not saying  that sometimes cars do not get bid up but why do people have such a hard time believing the cars actually being sold for auction prices . Not everyone works 9-5 and lives paycheck to paycheck . There is a part of the population with large sums of expendable cash . Ask any restoration shop that is any good , the wait time to get in is years and people are throwing cash at them to get in . And comparing some of the cars sold to the average car on craigslist is ridiculous some of those cars have had huge budgets in the builds and bring large money when sold.  I laugh when i see some people call the buyers foolish for what they pay , maybe they are but at least they are in a position to do so , why knock them for that ?

 I agree 100%.

[keithb7]

It might be difficult to accept for some folks who are just getting by. A  $100 fuel up hurts. An $80,000 BJ car is impossible. I can see someone laughing at a rich person forking over $80,000 for a ‘93 Mustang. There are folks out there that bought one that was clapped out in 2007, paying $800. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[5219]

Does anyone here remember the story about B.J. Auctions and the sale of the 1963 Pontiac navy ambulance that supposedly took JFK's body from the airport to Bethesda Naval Hospital? The car got a ton of publicity. As more information came out, the provenance of the car got murkier and more muddled. The JFK library confirmed that the actual car had been given to them by the Navy after it was removed from service. The library said that the car was in poor condition and that they were not interested in restoring it for exhibit. The library said that they had the car crushed and kept the number plates and a video of the crushing. Following that announcement, BJ went through with the auction. The car supposedly fetched a million dollars. As far as I know, it has never been heard of again.

Since then, I have always been very skeptical about that organization.

 

[Marty Roth]

10 hours ago, rwchatham said:

I am not saying  that sometimes cars do not get bid up but why do people have such a hard time believing the cars actually being sold for auction prices . Not everyone works 9-5 and lives paycheck to paycheck . There is a part of the population with large sums of expendable cash . Ask any restoration shop that is any good , the wait time to get in is years and people are throwing cash at them to get in . And comparing some of the cars sold to the average car on craigslist is ridiculous some of those cars have had huge budgets in the builds and bring large money when sold.  I laugh when i see some people call the buyers foolish for what they pay , maybe they are but at least they are in a position to do so , why knock them for that ?

Saw a rerun of the film "Fiddler on the Roof" recently -

Perchik The Teacher/Radical (Paul Michael Glazer) who pursues the 2nd daughter and is eventually arrested and sent to Siberia, tells Tevye the impoverished milkman raising 5 daughters, that "Wealth is a Curse". Tevye responds "May I be Smitten - And, May I Never Recover!"

[nick8086]

This car was from B/J = not mine but my son got to make a call from 3,000,000 car..