tendency of gas to --GO BAD---

[broker-len]

I have read on this and other forums about the tendency of gas to --GO BAD---   here in NJ I think we have some alcohol in the gas-----I have had gas in one of my 30s cars for well over a year no problem with carb parts,,the gas in carb seems to evaporate so it takes a while to start but runs OK   not sure if I put stable      I also have a emergency generator    I think gas over two years-----still fires the thing up       I here about US gas reserves ....Just how do they keep it good   and  when and how does gas really go bad

[60FlatTop]

I keep hearing the stories. I haven't had any of the experiences in cars or mowers. I always use Mobil gas which Consumer Reports considers to be a premium gasoline because of the additives. When I sit down and think about it I would have to say the people whom tell me their woes could potentially be gas price shoppers.

So far my experience matches yours.

[rocketraider]

My understanding is that pure gasoline is stable with a shelf  life of many months. It's when ethanol is introduced at the tank farm that the mix loses stability.

 

I've smelled pure gasoline two or more years old that still smelled like gasoline. I've also smelled fuel that was supposedly fresh but stunk like turpentine or varnish within a month. I will no longer use Walmart/Murphy gasoline for that reason. That funky mess cost me a $900 repair last spring🙄. Whether or not that nasty fuel caused the issue is moot, but it did some odd things. In addition to the smell, both fuel tanks on the trunk were pressurized in 35° temperatures.

 

Right now it's the least expensive gas in the area, but I'll pay 12c more a gallon elsewhere.

[Terry Bond]

[nickelroadster]

Gas reserves is probably referring to natural gas not gasoline.

[George Smolinski]

41 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

Gas reserves is probably referring to natural gas not gasoline.

The correct term is Strategic petroleum reserves. It is not natural gas. It’s crude oil.

[Str8-8-Dave]

When I was a teenager working in the local Sunoco station my boss used to warn about the local cut-rate outfits like Go GitEr, Zephyr, HyFy etc. being "scab gas dealers".  Reputable gasoline jobbers would only pump their storage tanks down to about 29 inches or so when delivering to name brand stations like Sunoco, Shell, Standard Oil, Mobil, Gulf and Sinclair in our area.  The bottom 29 inches of the storage tanks was delivered to the scab stations only because the jobbers didn't want any trouble with name brad dealers.  Every once in awhile we would get a customer's car that had watered or worse gas and we would spend a good part of the day pulling the fuel tank, flushing lines, overhauling carburetors and fuel pumps to get them back on the straight and narrow.  Many who went thru that became regulars at our station.  That was then, today it's ethanol, even from reputable dealers, the sign on the pump that says fuel may contain up to 10% ethanol means trouble for older cars with open vented fuel tanks.  New cars run sealed fuel systems and if you so much as drive away from the pump without putting the filler cap back on you may get a warning light on the dash or a message on the information display.  I use web based finder services to make sure what goes in the old guy is ethanol free.  

[wayne sheldon]

California has been messing with gasoline for longer than anybody else. Thirty years ago, They were putting alcohol in our gasoline, and occasionally, that was all we could get easily. Thirty years ago, I prepped one of my model Ts for an upcoming (couple days) tour. The T, with a vented tank cap sat outside for TWO days, and the gas went bad in it. That early alcohol formulation would absorb moisture out of the humid air inside a vented tank, and the water/alcohol mix would form strings of alcohol/water. Those strings plugged the fuel line. I drained the tank (with some difficulty!) and blew out the lines. About a gallon of gasoline in a pan had about a hundred strings of alcohol water ranging from a quarter inch long to almost two inches long! I fished a few of the strings out, and squeezed them between my fingers. The had a thin shell surrounding the water and when squeezed the water would run out down my fingers.

 

Maybe more later?

Edited November 21, 2021 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[pfloro]

43 minutes ago, George Smolinski said:

The correct term is Strategic petroleum reserves. It is not natural gas. It’s crude oil.

 

 

Strategic Petroleum Reserve

 

From Wikipedia:

 

The Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) is a emergency stockpile of petroleum maintained by the United States Department of Energy (DOE). It is the largest known emergency supply in the world, and its underground tanks in Louisiana and Texas have capacity for 714 million barrels (113,500,000 m³).^[1] The United States started the petroleum reserve in 1975 after oil supplies were interrupted during the 1973–1974 oil embargo, to mitigate future supply disruptions.

The current inventory is displayed on the SPR's website.^[2] As of September 4, 2021, the inventory was 621.3 million barrels (98,780,000 m³). This equates to about 31 days of oil at 2019 daily U.S. consumption levels of 20.54 million barrels per day (3,266,000 m³/d)^[3] or 65 days of oil at 2019 daily U.S. import levels of 9.141 million barrels per day (1,453,300 m³/d).^[4] However, the maximum total withdrawal capability from the SPR is only 4.4 million barrels per day (700,000 m³/d), so it would take about 145 days to use the entire inventory. At recent market prices ($58 a barrel as of March 2021),^[5] the SPR holds over $14.6 billion in sweet crude and approximately $18.3 billion in sour crude (assuming a $15/barrel discount for sulfur content). In 2012, the total value of the crude in the SPR was approximately $43.5 billion, while the price paid for the oil was $20.1 billion (an average of $28.42 per barrel).^[6]

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by pfloro (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

I have been using gas with alcohol in all of my current and antique vehicles, and lawn equipment and to date I have not to my knowledge had any issues with any gasoline in them.

 

In the north country in the winter there used to be issues with gas lines freezing because of accumulation of water in the lines  To prevent against that we would add Fuel Line De-Icer.  What the can had was alcohol which absorbed the moisture in the fuel system.   Modern fuels now do it automatically.

 

If you introduce gas with alcohol into an older car that has never had anything but regular non alcohol fuel, when the gasohol is introduced the alcohol acts as a cleaner and dissolves any varnish ant other contaminants in the system  It can quickly clog fuel filters, fuel tank pickup socks, etc... The solvent/thinner for varnish is alcohol.

 

See the pictures below for the Gas Line Anti-Freeze.

[edinmass]

Today, you don’t buy gas at a gas station. You purchase fuel. Most of the country is E10. Then there is the chemist nightmare added to the blending stocks.........for about twenty different reasons, and they vary according to your county’s population and NO2 issues. Carburetors from about 1970 onwards are not quite as effected as earlier machines. Going pre war.....all bets are off. Fuel density will alter float height, and stoichiometry in the idle circuit goes out the window......and in mid range also. Energy and heat content are less, so, if you haven’t rejetted your carburetor......your car isn’t running right. It’s physics.......less energy in means you need to fatten it up. Most people can’t tell if their car is actually running correctly..........fuel starvation, tip in hesitation, throttle lag......all signs of issues. Very few cars pre 1960 run as designed. 

[George Smolinski]

Here in MN, some stations sell premium non-oxygenated gas, which is what you’re supposed to use in 2 stroke engines, & I think all other small engines. A very few stations still sell leaded 100+ octane racing fuel. Expensive, but the ‘66 Impala I owned sure did like it.

You guys burning the unleaded junk in your old (about pre-1976) vehicles will find out about hardened valve seats eventually if you haven’t already.

[F&J]

51 minutes ago, George Smolinski said:

You guys burning the unleaded junk in your old (about pre-1976) vehicles will find out about hardened valve seats eventually if you haven’t already.

False fear mongering info spread online by people that don't repair cars for a living. 

 

Don't you all remember 50s-60s "American" brand stations ONLY had "white gas" which was always unleaded. Back then people stuck with one brand of gas for their lifetime, and there never were any reports of "American"-brand gasoline causing engine damage.  Higher compression engines always ran hi-test to prevent pinging/valve knock/pre-ignition.   No cars needed hardened seats to use their gas back then.  People also bought white gas there for Coleman lanterns and stoves.

 

Countless engines that predate the 70s that don't have hardened seats, antique cars, lawn tractors etc, are still running with no valve seat recession. , .  

 

Valve seat recession occurred when an engine was used under constant excessive laboring conditions such as an underpowered huge, heavy old motorhome fighting poor aerodynamics with timing cranked up and constantly pinging at highway cruise speed. Pinging, or "pre-ignition",  or 'valve knock" has pretty much disappeared with the amount of water content in todays gas.  Some may recall water injection back in the day to combat pre-ignition, aka pinging, aka valve knock.

 

Also, Earlier antique cars have such low compression (5-1, to 7-1) that then never could or would ping under any conditions.  Any engine rebuild shop that says those early cars "need" hardened seats are misleading the public.

 

 

[George Smolinski]

7 minutes ago, F&J said:

False fear mongering info spread online by people that don't repair cars for a living. 

I take it you are a qualified mechanic well versed in what happens to an engine designed to burn leaded gas, but is burning unleaded gas because leaded isn't available.

How do you refute the mechanics that agree with my statement?

If what you say is true, then why do so many valve jobs on older (pre-1976) cars include hardened seats?

[oldcarfudd]

My brass cars have, typically, 4:1 compression and will just about run on equal parts whale oil and bubble gum.  If I have a sticking valve, I put a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas.  If I have made up too much two-cycle mixture for my leaf blower, I dump it in the one-lung Cadillac or the Model T.  When I'm driving a brass car and it's running low on fuel, I fill up at any pump with the same stuff my wife uses in her Toyota.  (On the other hand, don't get me started about fuel for my Stanley!)

[60FlatTop]

15 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Right now it's the least expensive gas in the area, but I'll pay 12c more a gallon elsewhere.

My routine is to set the trip meter when I fill up at the same Mobil station. At 200 miles I top my daily driver off, 150 for the Avalanche. $0.12 more would cost me an extra $1.50. During the Summer I top the old cars off on Sunday. Not a big deal, always done it that way except in younger years.

 

Last time I went to one of those bargain gas pumps I stepped on a bunch of condiment packages some frugal person must have dropped out of their pocket digging for change. The jelly was sticky.

Edited November 21, 2021 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[F&J]

59 minutes ago, George Smolinski said:

If what you say is true, then why do so many valve jobs on older (pre-1976) cars include hardened seats?

They don't "require" hardened seats, the engine rebuild shops just promote the misinformation to protect themselves.  It's insurance to those shops in case an engine is tortured like my example on my first post. These rebuild shops have no clue if the owner was to run way too much timing, carburetor main jet under-sizing for different altitudes, and under what conditions the engine "might" be severely abused. Of course they will then suggest hardened seats.

 

Not that it matters for proof of anything, but I was ASE certified mechanic since the 70s, but I only mention my career when I say that "I" have only seen one case of valve seat recession "with my own eyes".  (This was pre-ethanol/methanol blends in the early no-lead days) I was pretty shocked to see the valves had sunk so low that the engine could then not get enough air/fuel flow to have enough power to drive at normal speeds. It was a motor home with an early 289 Ford that did a cross country trip coast to coast, the owner admitted bumping the timing up for more power as the engine was just too small for that vehicle and it's lack of aerodynamics. It barely made the trip back. He also said the engine pinged constantly, even at cruise. 

 

In closing, we must go back to those days of the "American" (Amoco) stations selling ONLY no lead gas for decades. If there was common valve seat damage then, word would have spread very fast, and they would have been forced to add lead like all other gas brands did.  You cannot refute or change actual history. 

[mrspeedyt]

in my experience this modern e10/gas does seem to evaporate relatively quickly in a older vented fuel system. 

[hook]

2 hours ago, F&J said:

They don't "require" hardened seats, the engine rebuild shops just promote the misinformation to protect themselves.  It's insurance to those shops in case an engine is tortured like my example on my first post. These rebuild shops have no clue if the owner was to run way too much timing, carburetor main jet under-sizing for different altitudes, and under what conditions the engine "might" be severely abused. Of course they will then suggest hardened seats.

 

Not that it matters for proof of anything, but I was ASE certified mechanic since the 70s, but I only mention my career when I say that "I" have only seen one case of valve seat recession "with my own eyes".  (This was pre-ethanol/methanol blends in the early no-lead days) I was pretty shocked to see the valves had sunk so low that the engine could then not get enough air/fuel flow to have enough power to drive at normal speeds. It was a motor home with an early 289 Ford that did a cross country trip coast to coast, the owner admitted bumping the timing up for more power as the engine was just too small for that vehicle and it's lack of aerodynamics. It barely made the trip back. He also said the engine pinged constantly, even at cruise. 

 

In closing, we must go back to those days of the "American" (Amoco) stations selling ONLY no lead gas for decades. If there was common valve seat damage then, word would have spread very fast, and they would have been forced to add lead like all other gas brands did.  You cannot refute or change actual history. 

If I'm not mistaken Sunoco was no-lead up until the mid fifties when the came out with the blend pump.

[George Smolinski]

2 hours ago, F&J said:

They don't "require" hardened seats, the engine rebuild shops just promote the misinformation to protect themselves.  It's insurance to those shops in case an engine is tortured like my example on my first post. These rebuild shops have no clue if the owner was to run way too much timing, carburetor main jet under-sizing for different altitudes, and under what conditions the engine "might" be severely abused. Of course they will then suggest hardened seats.

 

Not that it matters for proof of anything, but I was ASE certified mechanic since the 70s, but I only mention my career when I say that "I" have only seen one case of valve seat recession "with my own eyes".  (This was pre-ethanol/methanol blends in the early no-lead days) I was pretty shocked to see the valves had sunk so low that the engine could then not get enough air/fuel flow to have enough power to drive at normal speeds. It was a motor home with an early 289 Ford that did a cross country trip coast to coast, the owner admitted bumping the timing up for more power as the engine was just too small for that vehicle and it's lack of aerodynamics. It barely made the trip back. He also said the engine pinged constantly, even at cruise. 

 

In closing, we must go back to those days of the "American" (Amoco) stations selling ONLY no lead gas for decades. If there was common valve seat damage then, word would have spread very fast, and they would have been forced to add lead like all other gas brands did.  You cannot refute or change actual history. 

Well, I experienced valve seat recession in a 1970 Chevrolet Impala. 350 with T350 trans, all stock. Always kept it well tuned, and set it at factory specs; did not "bump" the timing & it certainly wasn't underpowered with the 350 in it. Car had 48000 miles on it when I got it & it needed a valve job with new seats at about 70,000.  BTW, I did go with hardened seats.

I suppose the mechanics I know are all wrong then & the machine shops doing valve jobs are all stiffing their customers because we don't need no stinkin' hardened seats.

[rocketraider]

George, given some issues Chevrolet was having with cracked valve seats on smog pump equipped engines in those years, that may be where your problem started. It seemed to be worse on 307s than 350s though. 70k miles was about where the problem usually showed up.

 

Combination of poor metallurgy and high exhaust valve temperatures due to the air injection didn't do Chevrolet any favors. It made the Feds happy for a couple years though.

[Frank DuVal]

3 minutes ago, George Smolinski said:

Well, I experienced valve seat recession in a 1970 Chevrolet Impala. 350 with T350 trans, all stock. Always kept it well tuned, and set it at factory specs; did not "bump" the timing & it certainly wasn't underpowered with the 350 in it. Car had 48000 miles on it when I got it & it needed a valve job with new seats at about 70,000.  BTW, I did go with hardened seats.

I suppose the mechanics I know are all wrong then & the machine shops doing valve jobs are all stiffing their customers because we don't need no stinkin' hardened seats.

It is possible they are stiffing people, but in a "we want no complaints way", just like all the brake jobs where turning the drum was included, whether they need it or not. One of those "we do it to all engines because we do not want the one person who decides to run at full horsepower/torque experiences trouble later although they said it was just an around town car". Why else would a drum turning be mandatory in a brake job other than "we do it to all cars so we don't get that one complaint later" mentality. That's when I started doing my own brake jobs.  😉

 

One of the reasons for valve wear was lead deposits on seats causing hot spots which cause burned valves......🤔 just saying.....

 

And, as F&J points out, Amoco and Mobil high test was unleaded for years. Briggs and Stratton small engine nameplates said to use Mobilgas unleaded in their small engines. Ever hear of thousands of 50s and 60s cars having recessed valve seats from running unleaded back then?

 

If the cast iron head is too damaged from a valve burning, then a seat is installed. Hardened seats are what is now available, so that is what you get. Last a long time, why not install them when necessary to install a seat?

 

My Buick 455 had it's seats ground, vales ground when it had 225 K on it. No replacement of either valves or seats and it had run unleaded for 75% of its life at that point. I tore the engine down due to a broken piston from pinging. 10:1 compression engine, foot in it a lot.....🤣

[TexRiv_63]

Here in DFW we have had nothing but E10 gasoline available for at least the last 20 years. In that time period I have owned numerous cars from a 1928 Pierce-Arrow to a 2018 Durango SRT and with one exception I have NEVER experienced any of the ethanol horror stories we continually see here and on other forums. I make it a point to always drive my cars on a regular basis and on the older ones I never fill the tank but rather add 4 to 5 gallons at a time to keep fresh gas moving through. I have never used any type of additive for either lead or ethanol.

The one exception was a 1932 Cadillac V-12. I had a major fuel related problem due to deteriorated Detroit Lubricator carburetors which I solved (?) with swapping in new Zenith carbs and an electric fuel pump. This took a long time, more than six months, and when I was done the car would not start. After trying everything else I could think of I drained the 10 gallons of old gas out and put fresh gas in - and it started right up! 

I think use of E10 is very manageable in engines that get regular use but for the generator and lawn tools try to find something without the alcohol. 

[hook]

Franklin's are air cooled and run normally hot. From 1930 to 1934 they had aluminum heads and bronze valve seats and the company used no-lead Sunoco gasoline. Of course their compression ratios were 5-1 to 6-1. I think the biggest problem the older cars have with the alcohol is seals & gaskets. 

[JimKB1MCV]

Just FWIW...

  I sailed for many years on small (~ 20K bbl.) tankers dealing with  niche market gasoline and fuel oil from the refineries in New Jersey delivering product to terminals in various ports in the northeast USA. 

  The product was delivered to Mobil, Exxon, Sun Oil, Gulf Oil and many independent terminals and some was to delivered from (for example) from the Mobil refinery to Mobil terminals but some, probably most was  not brand specific, i.e. a load from Exxon might be consigned to a terminal of a rival company.

  We were told that specific blending was done at the terminal level. Some of the product probably was from tank bottoms and sold a clerance price.

  

  It was fairly interesting work with really archaic equipment owned by a 'Mom and Pop' company that got their start during prohibition delivering fuel to  rumrunners.

 

[JACK M]

These extended fuels tend to evaporate differently than the old stuff.

I had a boat customer that always complained that his gas was going bad.

I dropped by his place once and noticed how he stored his boat.

There was a large tank vent on the side of the boat that was in a position that caught the wind and rain.

I think that the wind was literally sucking the octane out of his gasoline.

Hence his gasoline was indeed "going bad".

I don't go looking for better gas for my cars, I usually run the mid-grade and they always run ok on last years gas.

I do find that I need to drip a bit down the throat if it's been any amount of time as I think that the float bowl evaporates out.

I do that just so I don't have to grind the starter to death.

[JamesR]

21 hours ago, broker-len said:

I have read on this and other forums about the tendency of gas to --GO BAD---   here in NJ I think we have some alcohol in the gas-----I have had gas in one of my 30s cars for well over a year no problem with carb parts,,the gas in carb seems to evaporate so it takes a while to start but runs OK   not sure if I put stable      I also have a emergency generator    I think gas over two years-----still fires the thing up       I here about US gas reserves ....Just how do they keep it good   and  when and how does gas really go bad

Thanks for reminding me about starting my emergency generator before it gets real cold. If any gas has gone bad at our house, it will be in that; I think I put gas in it like three years ago.

 

My old cars can sit for a long time without getting much road use, though I start them up enough to keep the engines from developing neglect related problems. It's also important to me that my vehicles run smoothly, regardless of miles put on, so I devote energy to that kind of maintenance. My experience is like yours - despite all the warnings, I rarely have gas go "bad" due to age. The gas I'm taking about is in old cars and equipment, so it's non-ethanol, which is available around here. It's not uncommon for the cars to have gas over 12 - 16 mo. old, though all of it is recent, now. I used to put Stabil in gas bu I don't think I'll do that so much anymore because I just don't run into issues. I'm pretty sure I put Stabil in the emerg. gen. so it'll be interesting to see what happens there.

 

Gas its still something top pay attention too, though. Years ago an old car guy told me that his old Plymouth flathead six never ran good, so he rebuilt the motor. It still ran bad after he rebuilt it, so he drained the old gas and replaced it...then the engine ran great. 😶

[MikeC5]

I had a '65 Valiant with a 225 Slant 6 that I got with around 100k miles and used as a daily driver for several years after the switch to unleaded gas and (over roughly 50k miles), it began to run very poorly.  Compression was low.  I pulled the head to find severe valve seat recession.  The engine was bone stock, timed to spec, original (rebuilt) carb.  I had read that unleaded would have minimal effect on a low revving engine such as this.  Coincidence?  I haven't rebuilt all that many engines but this is the only time I'd seen valves like that.

[60FlatTop]

A while back I found this article that confirmed what I had been experiencing.

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-maintenance/study-shows-top-tier-gasoline-worth-extra-price/

 

[CarlLaFong]

A bit over three years ago we moved from southern California to central Texas. we made 6 round trips moving all of our stuff. In with all my outdoor equipment was a can of pre mix for my two stroke stuff. Because of illness and other issues everything sat until recently. I grabbed the can of 3 1/2 year old gas, gave it a shake and filled the weed whacker and yanked the cord and have been cutting weeds ever since with the same old SoCal regular

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Just finished cleaning varnish out of a carburetor from a car that had been sitting since 1986.  Fuel tank had a bunch of holes rusted thru the upper side, and lucky for me a replacement tank cost $150. (price has gone up since I bought it).  Fuel line was plugged up at the tight bend, which I managed to clean out using a length of garage door lift cable and drill motor.  I am so glad the car no longer stinks of that old gas. 

[Bryan G]

As far as motor vehicles go, I've found the ethanol blends to work just fine. The caveat is that I drive my collector cars often enough that a tank never sits more than a few weeks. I was just thinking, almost every old car I ever bought had stale gas in the tank when I got it...but most had been sitting so long that it was pre-ethanol that had turned to varnish. All the real troubles I've seen or heard of (from reliable sources) stem from using the "new" stuff in marine or small-engine applications. I suspect venting/moisture absorption has a lot to do with this. Personally, I have a small yard and just use an old push mower. I might go through 3-4 gallons a year. I've had a can of ethanol blend go stale over the winter even with Sta-Bil but I can get mid-grade ethanol free (pricey) that will still be okay for a couple seasons with Sta-Bil.

[Paul Dobbin]

i buy 20 gallons at a time of non-ethenol in 4 five gallon containers with Marine Stabil.   I use it in all power tools including my gas golfcart carryall.   I also use it to top off my antique car tanks when they are being used or stored.

On tours and duirng long summer drives I sue whatever is available, because it's used up so quicckly.   However

before they sit I fill them with non-ethenol & Marine Stabil.

Works great for chain saws and weed eaters too.