Young people in the hobby DO exist!!

[JACK M]

I took the Slide rule course two or three time in Jr. college and never did make any sense out of it.

[Pfeil]

10 minutes ago, JACK M said:

I took the Slide rule course two or three time in Jr. college and never did make any sense out of it.

They wouldn't let us use the slide rule during test. We had to use the calculator in our head. This showed them the brain was functional. 

[JACK M]

Oh yea, I could do math.

I recall the instructors suggesting that I may have been over thinking the contraption.

Even acknowledging that a slide rule is not a precise instrument.

I am still a bit anal.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

58 minutes ago, ted sweet said:

maybe if many in the hobby werent convinced any car built after ww2 isnt an antque

 

I kind of get it from an inclusion perspective.  But everyone simply is not interested in every subcategory.  My SL is whistle clean, and sorted end to end, largely by myself.  I get a lot of attention from those with similar interest on the road, and get ignored by other car folks - I get it.  I guess I am the same way.   The social aspect is a big thing in the hobby - many of us will say more than one realizes, but it starts with the common interest.   That said I try to encourage any kid with any interest in vehicles old or new.

[John348]

19 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Well, there are NOT antiques, no matter how hard you try to change the definition, but AACA will accept your dues payment every year. Bob 

 

What is an antique is subjective to the individual, I think that is the point that Ted is trying to bring forward.I have a tough time myself accepting late 80's cars as antiques. To my 30 year old son he remembers taking a trip to Florida with my in-laws in the the 1988 Celebrity Wagon when he was 6 years old. That car is an antique to him. He will be the first on to say that my other cars are nice but he can't relate to them, even though most of those cars have been in the house before he was born

[TerryB]

11 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

What is an antique is subjective to the individual, I think that is the point that Ted is trying to bring forward.I have a tough time myself accepting late 80's cars as antiques. To my 30 year old son he remembers taking a trip to Florida with my in-laws in the the 1988 Celebrity Wagon when he was 6 years old. That car is an antique to him. He will be the first on to say that my other cars are nice but he can't relate to them, even though most of those cars have been in the house before he was born

My 26 yr old son expresses the same sentiments.  His big issue with really old cars is spending big $$$ on a car that can’t travel at speeds greater than 50 mph.  Living in CA I can see his point. Mid 1950s on up is ok to him as these cars are capable of driving in today’s traffic.  

[DAVES89]

49 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Well, there are NOT antiques, no matter how hard you try to change the definition, but AACA will accept your dues payment every year. Bob 

So when will a 30 year old car [example a 1989 Reatta] be considered an antique?

[Laughing Coyote]

7 minutes ago, DAVES89 said:

So when will a 30 year old car [example a 1989 Reatta] be considered an antique?

When someone finds it 20 years from now in a barn covered in dust and sitting on 4 flat tires. 

[John348]

48 minutes ago, DAVES89 said:

So when will a 30 year old car [example a 1989 Reatta] be considered an antique?

 

To somebody who was born around 1989 or later it will be considered antique or in 20 years as Laughing Coyote pointed out above. 

It just seems to be the nature most people in the hobby, if a person could have  bought the car brand new and drive it it is hard for many to consider it an antique

Edited August 8, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

23 hours ago, rocketraider said:

They're out there and i find most of them have a lot of disdain for those who try to tell them anything with an engine is bad.

 

To put a slightly different take on that, “younger folk” also don’t tend to have the same amount of time available to them  (or disposable income) as retirees so sometimes they have to make do with near enough. There is definitely stuff I would do to my cad if I didn’t have to balance a career and other pressures, but I did the engine to a level I’m comfortable with for driving (and it runs nice, no smoke on start up with good oil pressure and what I could achieve under the carport (new ring, bearing checked, etc))

 

My wife doesn’t mind coming to events either, she enjoys period dramas so often the destinations are good for her.

 

I can say categorically the biggest turn off for me has been old geezers that are more interested in petty squabbles from 20 years ago and just generally being miserable. Thankfully some clubs are better that others (Caddy has a good strong club in Victoria)

 

I’m 30 for reference

[DAVES89]

4 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Does the 1989 Reatta (whatever that is) know what a 1908 Maxwell looks like, will he find anything in common if parked along side one? 

 

 I am watching "Niagara" and one of the characters in the movie is building a model 1907 Maxwell. But that is not the question I asked...

[Buffalowed Bill]

We all went through some sort of family, job and hobby juggling act. Some folks here seem to think that this is the first time anyone has experienced the problems. For most of us old-timers it would have been hard to escape the car culture of our youth. No matter where we went, what we did, or with whom we were with, cars were always in the back of our minds (think "American Graffiti"). It's simply not the case with so many of our young people today.

 

It's a mistake if anybody thinks that we are ever going to replace the numbers of car infatuated, "Baby Boomers," from the pool of disinterested young people. The character of our culture has changed. IMO there is never going to be a magic turn about, that will sustain the hobby as we know it today. For fifty years, successive generations spoke the same universal, language-no more.

 

I do talk to young people who share the love of our old iron. They share the same frustration with their peers that we feel. They are aware that little is going to change for most of them. That's why meeting today's young gear-heads on their turf would seem to be our best chance of saving our part of the hobby in North America. Are we willing to step out of our comfort zone and make the effort? I doubt it. We haven't shown any inclination in that direction.

 

It's going to be much easier to sustain our hobby's viability by looking to our overseas friends. We speak the same language, and like the same things. It's been a difficult for me to accept some of our best cars leaving the country, but I have now come full circle. The world changes, we can only change what we can. IMO the most important change is the attitude with which we approach the inevitable.

[John348]

3 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Does the 1989 Reatta (whatever that is) know what a 1908 Maxwell looks like, will he find anything in common if parked along side one? 

 

You don't know that, and both already have something in common they are parked next to each other at the same event. That is not really a positive attitude to have. Show some interest and respect to the owner of that car and he might do the same. I myself don't know what a Reatta is, except i worked with a guy who bought one new at the time and he was saying that it was the biggest piece of you know what he ever owned. For that matter I don't know what a 1908 Maxwell looks like either (I have an idea just not the specifics).

In the early 1980's I showed up to a local club event with a 59 Impala Convertible I had just gotten. I grew up up around that club my father was member and I was going to things with my Dad from the age of 10. Some guy who I knew all of that time said to me "nice used car when are you going to get an old one" I was basically the same age as the car, I never showed up there again.

[TerryB]

12 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Does the 1989 Reatta (whatever that is) know what a 1908 Maxwell looks like, will he find anything in common if parked along side one? 

Steering wheel, seats, four tires, runs on gasoline, can be registered as an antique automobile (here in PA), gives owner great pleasure in owning it.  I see some similarities!

[DAVES89]

17 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Does the 1989 Reatta (whatever that is) know what a 1908 Maxwell looks like, will he find anything in common if parked along side one? 

 

 And I also would like to believe the "anything in common" would be an interest in ALL cars. I've gone to car shows with my car and sat next to guys who only want to talk about his car and nothing good about anyone else's. Don't do car shows anymore...

[Matt Harwood]

3 hours ago, Pfeil said:

They wouldn't let us use the slide rule during test. We had to use the calculator in our head. This showed them the brain was functional. 

 

Good point, Paul. My comment goes way off topic other than for me to add that my kids seem to enjoy doing old car stuff and are actively looking forward to Hershey this year after going for the first time last year.

 

However, my youngest son continually gets in trouble at school for solving math problems without showing his work. He says he doesn't know how he gets the answer, he just knows it and simply writes it down. He gets 100% of the problems correct, every single time, but struggles night after night with his homework where he has to show his work and consistently gets marked down on tests because it's only answers, no process. I suspect his brain is just wired differently--he's not autistic or anything like that, just a regular kid who magically knows the answers to math problems. I've tested him with problems myself and on anything he has studied and learned, he knows the answer almost immediately. He's only 10 so it's not like he's doing calculus, but any addition, subtraction, multiplication, or division problem, he knows the answer about the time I finish writing out the problem--he does four digit multiplication in his head in a matter of seconds. It's quite extraordinary. But in a world where process matters, is that any different than using a calculator? I honestly don't know and it's causing him all kinds of frustration in school because it's going against the grain despite what appears to be an incredible gift. I think it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, but will it serve him well in the future if they teach him not to trust his brain and instead do it the long way? Is there even a use for such a talent in today's world?

 

To bring this back to cars, I think kids today are wired more for following a certain path, much more than we were a generation ago. If you don't get good grades you won't get into a good college. You need extracurriculars to get into a good college. Everything is geared towards that single goal. Then when they get out of college, the path that was laid out for them is completely gone and they're lost. They're like my son--exceptional in a very specific way--but lacking any real-world application for those skills. They aren't taught to be well-rounded people with interests, they're taught to always look to the future and work towards one goal, but when the future arrives it sucks. Exploring other interests isn't really in their world anymore. I had a cool car when I was 16. It's all I cared about and all I did for entertainment was drive it. That doesn't get you into college today, so it gets pushed aside and by the time you're in your 20s, well, you're off your path with no experience or connections to anything outside academia. Cars? Who has time for cars? I need to make a living and figure out how to be a person. Now what?

Is it any surprise that young people often get lost and seem disconnected?

[plymouthcranbrook]

I remember going to a local POC meeting in early 2007 and mentioning to a couple of other that I was going to pick up my new old Low mileage original Plymouth the next month, They asked what year and I told them a 1980.  They both laughed and said they hoped it wasn’t a Volare as they were all just rusty junk. Of course you know what it was.  The car is still here but the club is gone. I did stay a member till 2014 and did have some good times but never forgot the slight about a car I was pleased about. And I was 57 years old at the time so not a kid by any means.

[John_S_in_Penna]

45 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

...It's going to be much easier to sustain our hobby's viability by looking to our overseas friends. We speak the same language, and like the same things. It's been a difficult for me to accept some of our best cars leaving the country, but I have now come full circle. 

 

A friend went a few years ago to the huge "Power Big Meet"

in Vasteras, Sweden.  It's a show far larger than Hershey's,

and the cars there were excellent, he said.

 

Evidently in Sweden, the hobby attracts ample younger adults.

With the world being small these days, our cultures have many

similarities, and younger adults participate readily.  Here's a

picture as people gathered to begin a cruise:

 

 

[John S.]

The younger generation, by and large, do not work on their cars , so there isn't that connection .  We always worked on, washed and waxed and babied them. Today, If  they have  to go somewhere they have Uber.  Automobiles aren't that necessary to this generation. Course, that does not apply to all. I find that the younger folks if they are into older cars, they prefer Hot Rods, or Customs. There is a car club here in the New York Metro area, "THE RUMBLERS",  who are of a younger group, that have a strong following with  modified cars, and they are a great group of folks. My daughter loves old cars, and wants to buy one down the road. The difference is, she has been around old cars her whole life, going to Hershey, or helping me work on something. She even built a couple of models when she was a kid. 

         I just feel that these are different times, with different interest. Swap meets have dwindled because of the internet. It used to be fun to take the family out to a show, go through the swap area,  looking to find parts for projects.  A lot of that has faded into history.  A car show today has new Mustangs, Challengers, and Camaros., or Tuners. 

          Just be positive, and spread the joy of old cars. When I drive my Studebaker around town, I will get a wave, or a thumbs up. That's fine by me. 

[TerryB]

4 minutes ago, John S. said:

 

          Just be positive, and spread the joy of old cars. When I drive my Studebaker around town, I will get a wave, or a thumbs up. That's fine by me. 

You get the award for best thought of the day!  Isn’t this what it’s all about?

[John S.]

Thanks TerryB

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Good point, Paul. My comment goes way off topic other than for me to add that my kids seem to enjoy doing old car stuff and are actively looking forward to Hershey this year after going for the first time last year.

 

However, my youngest son continually gets in trouble at school for solving math problems without showing his work. He says he doesn't know how he gets the answer, he just knows it and simply writes it down. He gets 100% of the problems correct, every single time, but struggles night after night with his homework where he has to show his work and consistently gets marked down on tests because it's only answers, no process. I suspect his brain is just wired differently--he's not autistic or anything like that, just a regular kid who magically knows the answers to math problems. I've tested him with problems myself and on anything he has studied and learned, he knows the answer almost immediately. He's only 10 so it's not like he's doing calculus, but any addition, subtraction, multiplication, or division problem, he knows the answer about the time I finish writing out the problem--he does four digit multiplication in his head in a matter of seconds. It's quite extraordinary. But in a world where process matters, is that any different than using a calculator? I honestly don't know and it's causing him all kinds of frustration in school because it's going against the grain despite what appears to be an incredible gift. I think it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, but will it serve him well in the future if they teach him not to trust his brain and instead do it the long way? Is there even a use for such a talent in today's world?

 

To bring this back to cars, I think kids today are wired more for following a certain path, much more than we were a generation ago. If you don't get good grades you won't get into a good college. You need extracurriculars to get into a good college. Everything is geared towards that single goal. Then when they get out of college, the path that was laid out for them is completely gone and they're lost. They're like my son--exceptional in a very specific way--but lacking any real-world application for those skills. They aren't taught to be well-rounded people with interests, they're taught to always look to the future and work towards one goal, but when the future arrives it sucks. Exploring other interests isn't really in their world anymore. I had a cool car when I was 16. It's all I cared about and all I did for entertainment was drive it. That doesn't get you into college today, so it gets pushed aside and by the time you're in your 20s, well, you're off your path with no experience or connections to anything outside academia. Cars? Who has time for cars? I need to make a living and figure out how to be a person. Now what?

Is it any surprise that young people often get lost and seem disconnected?

 

 

I was very similar to your son up until about grade 10. But the material got complex enough that even very good abstract thinking skills could not handle the necessary process.  I had to then re - learn  and back track quite a bit , which meant I then fell behind with current work. It took a couple of years to get back to speed and it was a very frustrating process. But necessary if I was to progress  with ever more complex material. Very few of us are true genius's that could possibly handle advanced math purely in our heads. If teachers are going to be able to give any individualised assistance they need to be able to follow along with your son's logic and process. Problem solving ability is a great asset, but speaking the language of math fluently allows conversation with others.

 

 

Greg in Canada

[Ronnie]

5 hours ago, DAVES89 said:

So when will a 30 year old car [example a 1989 Reatta] be considered an antique?

 

Dave, I know for a fact that your Reatta is an antique right now.  How do I know?  I know because I own one just like yours and mine is an antique.

[Pfeil]

21 minutes ago, DAVES89 said:

 

Well buddy if you ever want to know what is wrong with the old car hobby and why there are fewer people involved [especially young people] look no farther then this post. You are too ignorant to look up a Reatta [whatever that is] but yet wonder if I know what a Maxwell is and what they may have in common. You have many posts and appear to be liked by many, but I would caution you on your "exclusive" attitude. There are a lot of old cars out there and Brass isn't the only place to be.

I thought it was a question, not a statement.

[DAVES89]

I have deleted my post. And I believe it to be a statement, however I do try to be civil in my posting and try not to call anyone out. For that I apologise.

Edited August 9, 2019 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Post WWII won, deleted mine too.

 

Bob

[Ronnie]

51 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Post WWII won, deleted mine too.

 

Bob

 

We all come together here as a community to talk about old cars.  I don't think there are any winners or losers. Just different strokes for different folks...

[1912Staver]

My Grandfather is going to give me his 64 Impala, I might personalise it a bit.

 

Greg in Canada.... just a bit tongue in cheek.

[cahartley]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

 

We all come together here as a community to talk about old cars.  I don't think there are any winners or losers. Just different strokes for different folks...

 

I agree completely.

Depending on the day I might drive my '27 Model T, '32 Chevy or '59 Chevy.

It's rare that I don't get a kind remark or complement from people of all ages, a day or two ago it came from an 8 year old.......

My point is in spite of that I can recall only one youngish man who expressed in interest in HAVING one.

So there you are....... 

[1935Packard]

My daily driver is 10 years old.  I bought it used 4 years ago.  As it gets older, I like it more and more, as its styling cues are getting dated.  I'm a fan of 30s cars more than any other era, but I think of my daily driver as a classic in the making.  

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Hopefully my new pal does not see this windy thread and....run for the hills!

 

If one looks at this positively, the car hobby is huge.  it encompasses a lot of eras, subcategories and in a broad sense antiques (however one defines that) are one subsection - "old cars" is a great general term as has been noted above.

 

35Pack - I like a lot of newer cars as well.  Spent some time last Saturday with yet another neighbor, my age, finally treating himself to a toy, a 2003 Vette.  Is he excited, you bet he is!

 

Greg, your Impala is indeed humorous.  That said, I freely admit to admiring some of the execution and workmanship you see on lowriders - especially from the 1970s.  These are actually "period cars" much like a hot rod with documentation from the early days.    Fans of those cars revere the Impala like rodders revere a deuce roadster or coupe.  I also like another movement that is more recent, in the same community, where US cars '38 - '54 give or take are kept mechanically stock, but loaded with all kinds of factory and aftermarket accessories.  Last year at Hershey we stayed in a hotel with some guys from LA, who were a lot of fun to speak with.  They call these cars "bombs" - and don't seem to discard sedans as a lot of collectors do.  They are essentially providing a market for and preserving some of these cars and at some point they probably could be returned to stone stock with minimal effort.    Fun group, one described attending the Auction and noted "not too many latinos here tonight"  (mods I am quoting a harmless poke a nice guy took at himself, but delete if you see fit) - my point is the hobby is huge. 

 

Another note on my friends from LA - in speaking with them at breakfast one morning, I noticed an LA FD T-shirt one was wearing.  I remembered reading about the LA FD - well known for being a hot bed of car people - antiques, hot rods, you name it.  These guys were connected to that group.  Hot Rod magazine, I think did a big article on them in the 70s, and they are still at it today.  Funny how one can read something 30, 40 years ago and recall it in detail...

 

Remember no one on this forum will likely be able to make another like, accept or discard their particular area of interest. Just enjoy it where you see fit! 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Steve_Mack_CT
clarity (see edit history)

[8E45E]

15 hours ago, DAVES89 said:

 

 And I also would like to believe the "anything in common" would be an interest in ALL cars. I've gone to car shows with my car and sat next to guys who only want to talk about his car and nothing good about anyone else's. Don't do car shows anymore...

Don't forget TRUCKS as seen in Post 28 here.----------------->  https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?77208-Mutts-let-s-see-em!

 

Craig

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, 8E45E said:

Don't forget TRUCKS as seen in Post 28 here.----------------->  https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?77208-Mutts-let-s-see-em!

 

Craig

Yes, I had a 1937 Dodge 1/2 ton model MC.  Trucks of all sizes are a great part of the hobby, especially for their unique historical contribution to the development of commerce in our country.

[padgett]

I once took a '38 Mack dump truck on an economy run. They scored by the ton-mpg. Rules were modified for the next event.

[60FlatTop]

If you look deeply at the 70 and 80 year old car hobbyists you will see that their attitude toward newer (30 and 40 year old) cars can simply be defined as arrogance. Once you recognize it the best thing to do is distance yourself.

 

Generally they aren't interested in a car because they are busy telling how much better theirs is.

 

I remember a time when I was not yet into my teens when I went to the barber shop. The barber held a sermon standing across from a row of his old cronies. I sat and listened. He told them about a young "boy" who came in and asked for a shave and a haircut. "Well, I gave that young big shot a shave he won't forget for a week. Got it so close it was burning red." he proudly told the sniggering group. That was about the time I began associating with older mechanics and found that to be a very common attitude all my life. That is what I ran into with very few exceptions. It left a lasting impression that continued to be reinforced over the years.

Neither my barber or I have much use for old men and we laugh about it. It is a continuation of the old guy at family reunions who would pinch your forearm to prove he could still hurt someone and hook your leg with his cane and laugh when he tripped you.

 

You know what they say "I can for the cars, but stayed for the people". When if happens the other way no one knows.

Bernie

[John S.]

Trucks are a great part of our hobby. John

[Pfeil]

48 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

If you look deeply at the 70 and 80 year old car hobbyists you will see that their attitude toward newer (30 and 40 year old) cars can simply be defined as arrogance. Once you recognize it the best thing to do is distance yourself.

 

Generally they aren't interested in a car because they are busy telling how much better theirs is.

 

I remember a time when I was not yet into my teens when I went to the barber shop. The barber held a sermon standing across from a row of his old cronies. I sat and listened. He told them about a young "boy" who came in and asked for a shave and a haircut. "Well, I gave that young big shot a shave he won't forget for a week. Got it so close it was burning red." he proudly told the sniggering group. That was about the time I began associating with older mechanics and found that to be a very common attitude all my life. That is what I ran into with very few exceptions. It left a lasting impression that continued to be reinforced over the years.

Neither my barber or I have much use for old men and we laugh about it. It is a continuation of the old guy at family reunions who would pinch your forearm to prove he could still hurt someone and hook your leg with his cane and laugh when he tripped you.

 

You know what they say "I can for the cars, but stayed for the people". When if happens the other way no one knows.

Bernie

 

Well Bernie, you sure paint a different picture of the car culture that I'm surrounded with. At almost 69 years old most of my car friends are in their 50's 60's, 70's 80's some in their 90's. The guys I know are into all cars foreign and domestic NEW and OLD, and in general into all years. My little city is a hot bed of all kinds of cars and a huge retirement car enthusiast population where most people work on their own cars. At least half or more of the guys I know including myself have large shops and at least one lift with multiple cars. Most of our backgrounds revolve around automotive, aviation, engineering, machinist, electricians, heck, a good friend that's into corvette's was a ship surveyor of mainly U.S. warships. What I'm saying is most are of a technical background and just like in the Surfing world it was always the "interest" and not age that brought us together.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Sounds like a cool place...

[Brill_C-37M_Bus]

I agree with a lot of the comments here.  As a twentysomething with a ‘51 bus and no mechanical background, I’m grateful to a lot of older hobbyists.  My experiences with older generations are mostly positive, but I have encountered and avoided stick-in-the-mud types who fit every stereotype mentioned in this thread!

 

I think the key to “saving” the antique car hobby is to accept that there is not one all-encompassing body of “car people,” but a massive imaginary Venn Diagram of overlapping special interests.  I’m not here for the cars, I’m a bus and trolley car guy.  But the folks here care about originality, history, and making carbureted gas engines run right, which is what I care about too.  You’d think I’d fit in better on a bus or truck forum, but my interests don’t intersect with the masses of diesel powered camper conversions that dominate the “old bus hobby.”  So I keep coming back here, and I love it.

 

Accepting that people who share one of our interests don’t have to share ALL of our interests will help retain new blood.  Like me.

 

Also, we can’t act like one hobby is better, or “the original,” when compared to other interests.  Even the guy who has tons of the earliest mass-produced cars ever can get out-original’ed sometimes.  Just ask any electric trolley car operator... from a certain comical point of view, this entire car hobby is a bunch of 1900s young whippersnappers with their newfangled horseless carriages!

[JACK M]

In my world every one should own at least one pick up truck.

I have three, each for its own purpose.

I also have several of what I may call collectable vehicles. A couple that are stock and a few that are hot rods. These change often.

My winter DD is an 03 Dakota, That and my 03 Motor home are the newest rigs that I own.

A 95 F350 for towing. Low mileage at 140K

Then my summer DD is a 64 D-100. It is registered as a collectable with yom plates. (Its in primer now and I need a better tail gate.). Which is simply a convenience as my DD's change daily. I have never been harassed about daily driving any of my vehicles that are registered as "Special Interest" here in Oregon.

I am the guy in the neighborhood that is known for driving a different car most every day.

I am also the guy that the kids come to to get the bike tires aired up and the guy that most neighbors come to for most all car/ lawn mower/ chain saw/ weed eater/ etc. advice.

As those bike kids grow up I am usually asked about their first cars and often will work on them.

This gets more difficult for me as I don't do much with newer stuff including those 03's.

Here if its 25 years or older they are eligible for "Special Interest".

As we have discussed here before 25 years is just a used car and I agree. But I remember when we avoided anything that had close to 100,000 miles on it.

That has all changed now that low mileage goes WAY beyond 100,000 miles.

 

Goofy old bachelor that lives alone and insures over a dozen vehicles. I have the disease. So commit me !!!!