Brass is Best Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Some cars are so important or historical they are no longer automobiles. They have become something more. So I ask does it even have to run? Or have these cars become sculpture and hold their value without having to turn over? Bugatti Royale, General Motors LeSabre concept, The Ford Quadricycle... Probably many others as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Interesting but in the case of the top two at least, they do run and run well! I'd prefer to see any of these cars do what they originally were intended to do but sometimes that is not possible. A group of us wanted to get the 1897 Oldsmobile that the Smithsonian owns running for the 100th anniversary of Oldsmobile. Despite the expertise in the group that was not permitted and although I was disappointed I understood why the Museum said no. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I totally agree with what Steve says that these cars should do what they were originally intended to do, but like the Liberty Bell - how often to you ring that and not figure that perhaps it will damage the object so future generations will not have it? Cars may be a bit different but if you look at something from the standpoint of a "preservationist" it depends upon the object. I am also the appointed historian for the village I live in and there is a collection of period material that although we like to share with the residents we can't just pass around to be looked at. I think if something like the Oldsmobile in the Smithsonian had its 100th anniversary and competent and qualified people can be available to make it run , then it should be done. It honors the machine and respects the ingenuity of R.E. Olds. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 We all are guardians of history from time, but its also an eventual loss. I think they get more people interest when running and like it or not...people are the reason we care. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 How many of the 1897 Oldsmobiles are left remaining? Just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 ONLY 1! We had real experts who wanted to carefully try to get it running and we were going to go through extraordinary efforts to ensure nothing happened but could not get approval to even attempt. It just seemed like the perfect 100th anniversary project getting this running after 100 years. It is now in a climate controlled case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 ANY car that doesn't run and never will again just burns my a**. I understand taking a treasured piece of history and respecting it, but is a car really a car if it will never run again or see the road? I think not........with the 1897 olds, starting it and running it around the parking lot would have been fine........how is anyone going to be interested in all this stuff if they cant play with it. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 What would inspire the younger generation of collectors or possible collectors more then to see something like that go for a drive around the parking lot? Hear it run, see the wheels turn. Just because it is old and needs to be preserved for all time doesn't mean it should be in a glass display just for observation. Heck if that was the law then a lot of the people reading this would be inside a glass case on exhibit not allowed to preserve things as they were made and intended to be used. Do the people that make the decisions value their status to do so , so highly, that they can decide who is and who isn't going to enjoy that object? About 200 feet away from our spots at Hershey in the north eastern corner of the Red field a fellow had a really great green International high wheeler, a fairly large machine , solid tires, wood wheels, and he would start it up and load it with friends and take them for a ride. THAT is history at its very BEST . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 As I remind people in my showroom all the time--they're just cars. It's their destiny to be outside, on the road, getting bugs and dirt on them. It's what they want to do. On the other hand, I know of a Boss 302 Mustang that has a crank, but no rods or pistons inside its numbers-matching engine block. Can't risk blowing it up, you know. Pushed everywhere it goes. That poor car must be miserable. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 Well everybody seems to be on the same page. Cars should run. I agree. They are no fun unless they can make noise and move under their own power. Just thought it was an interesting question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I really don't care if a car runs or not, Pebble Beach quality or unrestored 1897 Oldsmobile, not my car, and you can bet the ranch I'll never get an offer to drive it. I'd turn down the offer if given, I don't want to be at the controls when it blows up. However, I'm always interested in a vintage engine from a famous race car being the centerpiece of a clone that can be seen rolling around a race track again. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Walling Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I have a 68 year old dragster that looks original but does not run. Friends want me to put in running condition for a cackle fest but I think that it is a waste of time. A lot of work and money for some noise for a few minutes. I just enjoy looking at it and occasionally showing it. Ps, I wanted to run it in an old dragster event but they said it goes too fast. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalowed Bill Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Making a car run and driving it is a great deal different then touring or racing it. More power to the guy who is willing to restore, tour and then restore again. For many of us it comes down to keeping our show cars in show condition, and driving our tour cars. At 74 yo I don't have the years left, resources, or the energy to do it any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I bet Mr. Bugatti would be thrilled that people still admire his cars' mechanical abilities and want to drive them. The beauty is in the mechanical operation as well as in the styling. He'd probably be disappointed if his great cars were looked at just for their sheet-metal shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) Depends on how many cars you have. I have always had space in the corner of the gage for something that might never run again just because I like to sit and look at it. There will be more. I do lean toward the projects for ornaments, though. Edited November 2, 2018 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 All my stuff, which is not much compared to what many of you on this forum have, was what you would call today the driver participation class level. Driving it was my goal. I did the neighborhood car show stuff and even won a few trophies in the process but never tried to get close to something that would be Hershey level. I can’t say they weren’t trailered as my 1964 Vespa 125 and my 1970 Yamaha 90cc cycles were SLOW so a trailer ride to a show was necessary. My 1937 Dodge truck was not much better than the motorcycles but it was driven to the shows it attended. You just could not be in a hurry to get there. The 1964 Plymouth Belvedere I had was no issue as it could handle highway traffic. At times it felt too modern but it sure was nice to drive without a parade behind me. There are some excellent cars out there that can justify being like artwork in a museum and worthy of living a life of display only. However, that is never the dream I ever could see me having. I like cars that are driven and used and I admire those who do the same. If you have lots of dollars and years of work in your car and you choose not to drive it that’s fine too. It’s yours to enjoy any way you see fit. Posting pictures of your cars ensures all of us get to see and enjoy them. Just remember that goes for the works in progress too! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 My 1936 cord is just to beautiful to drive. I admire it in the corner. Of course I haven't had the time or money to get it running either. This just gives me some justification for not getting around to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipdang Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 The movement, smells, and sounds of a piece of equipment are just as much a part of its history as its appearance. Standing by a motionless object wondering what it sounded like, or what had to be done to have it running detracts greatly from the experience. I think the guys that collect and run stationary engines have it right. The experience is in the running! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 20 minutes ago, zipdang said: The movement, smells, and sounds of a piece of equipment are just as much a part of its history as its appearance. Standing by a motionless object wondering what it sounded like, or what had to be done to have it running detracts greatly from the experience. I think the guys that collect and run stationary engines have it right. The experience is in the running! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Well someone on this forum ,sorry I can't remember his name at the moment,but he said,if you can't drive it,collect clocks,I agree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldcarfudd Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Yeah, it has to run! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Sometimes it is too dangerous to make something run again. Imagine watching the Kee Bird burn after all of the man hours and work to get her into the air again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 1 hour ago, old car fan said: Well someone on this forum ,sorry I can't remember his name at the moment,but he said,if you can't drive it,collect clocks,I agree I have several old clocks. They run....... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 If it doesn't run, it's an appliance. It's great for an industrial design display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 The museum at which I work at is not a car museum but has several very early cars (Benz Motorwagon, Ford quadricycle, steam Locomobile and a couple of highwheelers) . They do not want a speck of grease or oil to be seen anywhere. This probably accelerates the deterioration of these old cars. I always figured the reason everything British leaked oil was for corrosion protection in the humid British climate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 3, 2018 Author Share Posted November 3, 2018 3 hours ago, 61polara said: If it doesn't run, it's an appliance. It's great for an industrial design display. Go easy on us industrial designers. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 3, 2018 Author Share Posted November 3, 2018 4 hours ago, keninman said: Sometimes it is too dangerous to make something run again. Imagine watching the Kee Bird burn after all of the man hours and work to get her into the air again. But it almost worked. "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" Alfred Lord Tennyson. One of the saddest documentaries you can watch. They were so close. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 3, 2018 Author Share Posted November 3, 2018 3 hours ago, cahartley said: I have several old clocks. They run....... The best are old clocks in old cars! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Every non running clock tells the correct time twice a day. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Macartney Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Tell these Bugatti owners and the spectators they can only see these cars pushed to the grid and not started .... …. and you may have a revolt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 A stationary car triggers emotion, dreams, and diversion that usually get the endorphins flowing. A good session of psychotherapy will run $150-$200 on the low side. For me, an inoperative $3,000 to $4,000 project car every year or two keeps me close to home and out of trouble. Good for mental health. Those iconic cars in the first post need to be capable of running to establish their value but just as a reference. That Bugatti displayed in the Ford museum was sitting idle in a Long Island junkyard for a while, much better sitting where it is now. And once you have looked over that Bugatti you can walk across the room and look at kitchens where nobody cooks and a couple of railroad engines on pretty short tracks Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 While I can see works of art or special interest cars in museums, it is doubtful that I will ever own one. Mine each are driven regularly and each has a specific purpose (well not so sure about the Reatta Convertible any more, have grown to appreciate retractibles.) Am also Scots. Most recent car I bought was less than a GF's iPhone. Back around 1976 I bought a FIAT 124 Spyder that suited me very well. DOHC 4 cyl with a 5 speed trans (my first with more than 4). Top you could drop with one hand. Cruised all over the Rockies and the Grand Canyon and never missed a beat. That car suited me very well. New one is a 2000 SLK230 (10/99 build so last century). Looks good, runs and drives but needs some interior and hydraulic work. No big. Qualifies for collector car policy. DOHC 4 and a five speed plus is a retractable with AC. Maybe the next one I buy when just old and keep until passes 25. Judge was that way when I bought it. $600 gas guzzler. At the same time I understand the resto-mod scene. After driving a modern coupe with rack & pinion front, multilink posi IRS. Set cruise at 70ish and just point at the horizon (Florida is a big state with isolated clusters of population and miles and miles of straight roads. (Still about 100 miles of turnpike south of Orlando metro with one exit, Yeehaw Junction. Has a big curve from SE to S approaching Ft. Pierce) it is hard to go back to cars that you do not steer so much as aim and current tech provides over 300 hp on 87 PON. Have always been a sucker for a DOHC 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, keninman said: Sometimes it is too dangerous to make something run again. Imagine watching the Kee Bird burn after all of the man hours and work to get her into the air again. That's really a shame and I can imagine the heartache, but not doing something you enjoy because something like that might happen to it is like saying, "I don't want to go out of the house because I might get hit by a bus today." I"m not going to live my life worrying about maybes and unknown futures. Life is too short. I can always get more "things" but I can never get more time. I would rather spend as much of that finite resource putting a smile on my face than fretting about unknown dangers and diminished values. I wrote about it elsewhere, but I just had a very good friend pass away and he bought a car from me TWO WEEKS before he died. He sure as hell wasn't expecting it. It can all vanish just like that. Why waste those precious moments you do have trapped in a feedback loop of consternation? Why preserve your car for the next guy? A chip on a paint job or grime on the undercarriage is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Use it up and cross the finish line with the tires, engine, and radiator smoking. Time. It's the only thing we can't get more of. Everything else is worthless in comparison, including these relics we cherish. Edited November 3, 2018 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Why is the joy of looking at a car, yours or others some how considered of less value that the beat to crap drive it 24/7 version? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Mike Macartney said: Tell these Bugatti owners and the spectators they can only see these cars pushed to the grid and not started .... …. and you may have a revolt! Vintage race cars are a bit of a special case. I am not speaking about Bugatti's specifically however I believe they probably generally conform to my experience with newer cars. Extremely original examples of these cars are not generally raced. They might be on display in the paddock and perhaps even make a couple of parade laps but they are almost never used in a situation where damage might occur. They are for the most part museum pieces , especially if they have important history in their past. The examples that are vintage raced generally have a substantial amount of recently constructed material. At the extreme end of this there are a few cars that have almost nothing remaining of the original car other than perhaps the constructors I.D. plate, and even with that there is no sure thing. Lola's, Mclaren's, Brabham's, Lotus 23's and the like. As long as a skeleton of the original crashed, burned , buried , tossed in the ocean etc . car remains someone will rebuild it to track ready condition. But the finished product is really a modern re-creation of a historic machine and racing them does not really risk damage to a historic artifact. In my experience the artifact quality examples are rarely actually raced. It's an old joke however quite true. " Of the 150 Lotus 23's built only about 400 still exist." Greg in Canada Edited November 3, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalowed Bill Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 I always think of the two friends who partnered to restore a very rare Testarossa race car, that the older gentlemen had raced in the 50's. The car owner provided the work space and much of what was needed to do the restoration. The second individual provided the skill, and the work force to do the job. For this he was set up in business and got a share of the car. When the work was done the car achieved the first goal while winning it's class at Pebble Beach. The car was then raced in a vintage race, much to the chagrin of the restorer, because he knew that it would take hundreds of hours of hard work to bring the car back to top shape. That assuming that it was not wrecked during the race. The car survived, the work done, the car sold because there would never be an accord on what the car should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 19 hours ago, Brass is Best said: Go easy on us industrial designers. I love industrial design, but when a car is restored and no longer functions as intended it becomes an industrial design, static display. My favorite part of a car show is watching the cars leave the show field under their own power, having to accelerate on to the road. I don't enjoy seeing a non-running car being winched onto a trailer from it's display location. Thus, it should be displayed in a proper museum setting and not at a car show. BTW, really like your driving sales videos, because the cars are in motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted November 4, 2018 Author Share Posted November 4, 2018 5 hours ago, 61polara said: I love industrial design, but when a car is restored and no longer functions as intended it becomes an industrial design, static display. My favorite part of a car show is watching the cars leave the show field under their own power, having to accelerate on to the road. I don't enjoy seeing a non-running car being winched onto a trailer from it's display location. Thus, it should be displayed in a proper museum setting and not at a car show. BTW, really like your driving sales videos, because the cars are in motion. Dave, Thank you. We believe all our cars should function as they should. We work very hard to sort them out. Thank you for watching the videos. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 Yes. They should run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 On 11/2/2018 at 7:17 PM, old car fan said: Well someone on this forum ,sorry I can't remember his name at the moment,but he said,if you can't drive it,collect clocks,I agree That was me. I believe it too. Today, I'm leading our groups annual Leaf Peeper Tour around the back roads of the Smoky Mountains. I laying it out the other day, we found quite a few un-restored relics awaiting somebody to make them run again. Maybe tomorrow I can post some fall color photos with happy drivers enjoying what makes this such a great hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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