Proof positive the old days and setting back the Odometer!

[auburnseeker]

I knew I had this somewhere in all my literature and finally ran across it today.  I figured I would post a picture of the advertisement/ order form to show those who don't believe it happened or wasn't a common practice in the old days to roll back the odometer.  This unit even rolls it ahead. Most likely when you are near 100,000, It's easier to go over than try to go back that far. 

[auburnseeker]

Sorry it's a bit blurry.  If I get a chance I'll try to get a better picture tomorrow. 

[Digger914]

I remember these things.

Turn the clock Back or Forward; the transition machine that became popular while congress spent a couple of years debating the Federal law making it a crime to turn back an odometer but not forward to 000000.

Then a few years later it became a dust collector when congress made it against the law to change the odometer in any direction.

Now the things are computerized and only used to correct incorrect odometer readings. At least according to the nice people who sell them online.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Digger914 (see edit history)

[c49er]

I have one!

[Joe in Canada]

They are still rolling back speedometer's. I think it would be hard to find a diesel pickup that has not been turned back at one time or another.

[jpage]

A few years ago the speedo went out on my '04 blazer, so I took it to the local dealer for repair. Had to buy the whole console at the price of my first born. They overnighted it and I had it back the next day, some law thing! While driving home I noticed a discrepancy in the mileage. I called the service manager and asked if they bought good low mileage cars and he asked why did I want to know. I told him that they had just changed the speedo in my truck and when I took it in it had 128,000 miles on it but now it only had 28,000 miles. He took a gasp and said "get it back here right away!" Quickest repair I ever had!

[dei]

I always wondered just how turning back an odometer was done. Obviously no one sold a machine "on the shelf" to make it widely known otherwise everyone would have been doing it. 

During the late 70's or early 80's here there was a used car dealer that eventually was caught and charged doing it to some of the cars on his lot. Soon after he started selling new then used RV's which he then was caught turning back the odometer on a few of the used ones. 

The place is still there today but not sure if the same family is in ownership, avoided looking at anything there just to be safe!

[Restorer32]

In the early 1960's my buddy worked as a mechanic at a Dodge Dealership, one of the oldest in the country. His regular job every evening before leaving work was to hook up the "black box" to whatever vehicle needed rolled. He said it would roll off about 2000 miles overnight. Their goal was for the vehicle to show 40,000-42,000 "original" miles.

[R Walling]

 Quote, Re. odometer setting back,

 

 " otherwise everyone would have been doing it. "

 

EVERYBODY DID DO IT!.

It was a feature of a wholesaler to have "low milage" cars, ready to sell.

 

 SOME OF THE BIG GUYS TOLD ME THAT IF YOU WERE REAL CAREFUL, YOU COULD DISASSEMBLE THE SPEEDO AND RESET THEM BY HAND.

 

 Don't even think that it wasn't done!

[auburnseeker]

That ad says right on it,  thousands already in use everyday.   Kind of says it all. 

[West Peterson]

Evidently Ferrari is still doing it today:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4257298/Ferrari-uses-device-roll-mileage-salesman-accuses.html

[Bhigdog]

Here in PA every year when you renew your registration you must note the mileage. Not saying mileage doesn't get changed but at least here in PA there is a paper trail. I think it's a pretty serious bust if you are caught........Bob

[DLynskey]

Those were the days!

 

In the 1950's or 1960's my dad's friend, a master mechanic, reset odometers as a second job. He worked primarily at the Buick dealer but made the rounds of most of them. His technique was innovative. 

 

Each year as soon as the new models came out the dealers (or at least a contact at the dealers) would notify him. He would carefully remove and inspect the odometer of each model, making a template for each. Using the template he could crawl under the dash, hold the template up to the back of the speedometer and drill a tiny hole. Then using a tool kit similar to a watchmaker's he could flip the first digit in seconds to read whatever the customer desired. He would do dozens at each dealership in a couple of hours and it was almost impossible to detect.

 

============

I remember a car salesman I knew telling me about one on the lot he thought I might be interested in. I asked him how many miles it had. He replied "how many would you like it to have?" This was probably in the 1980's, long after legislation outlawed resetting mileage.

 

============

In about  1975 I lived on Sand Mountain in Alabama where all the northern cars came to be reborn. The highway was populated by one shop after another, several hundred of them, and transport trucks from all over the eastern and midwestern states coud be seen coming in for the weekly auction. (As an aside I once saw a hauler carrying five unrestored 1940 Packard convertibles). Some of the best body men and painters worked there and it was known as "bondo hill".

 

I was looking for a Ford Crown Vic wagon for my family, checking the shops for a good one that had not yet been done. It seemed like every one I found had between 31k and 34 k miles. My wife and I found a likely candidate that had just come in showing 31k miles. As was her practice she immediately looked in the glove compartment. There was a notebook with the car's service history. It had been a fleet car for a vinyl siding salesman, had a minor accident somewhere along the way and an engine rebuild at 67,000 miles. I could probably have confronted the dealer and gotten the car for free, but he knew where I lived so I just said "no thanks" and moved on.

 

Don

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don

 

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by DLynskey (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

There was a guy we called "The Dutchman" who came into Dad's tire shop maybe once a month. His specialty was regrooving tires, especially truck tires, years after the practice had been outlawed. I still remember the smell of that hot grooving blade gliding thru rubber.

[28 Chrysler]

It was common in the 60s & 70s for people to bring me speedometers from cars they were working on to have the odometer set to match the cars actual  mileage (?) or show 000000.0 for a complete restored car.

[CarlLaFong]

11 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

They are still rolling back speedometer's. I think it would be hard to find a diesel pickup that has not been turned back at one time or another.

I have two of them. Never turned back.Of course, one only has 6K on it

 

 

 

[Restorer32]

It is not illegal to roll back a speedo, say if you are doing a complete restoration. It becomes illegal if you roll back the speedo in an effort to defraud. Same with VINs. Perfectly legal to remove and replace a VIN in the course of a restoration or even to just repair crash damage. Again, it only becomes illegal if there is intent to defraud.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Somewhere I read that it was common practice

in the 1950's for used Cadillacs to have their

odometers rolled back at the dealership--

perhaps not for defrauding, but after a thorough

check of the car.  Can someone verify this or tell more?

 

This entire thread is a strong caution NEVER TO BUY ANY CAR

based on its low mileage, or pay any premium for low mileage,

unless that mileage comes with ample documentation.

[28 Chrysler]

It wasn't just Cadillac, many car manufacturers would do it to the cars that were used in new car shows or display tours. The factory warranty would still be honored.   

[Rusty_OToole]

Some Packard dealers in the 30s and 40s would turn the odometers to 000000 on cars that had been through their reconditioning process. I heard about this from a guy who who bought a used Packard limousine. It was immaculate, one owner, showed little wear, so he bought it. Later he happened to meet the chauffeur who had driven and maintained it all its life. He informed the new owner that it had been to Florida and back several times and also made a few cross country trips and had over 100,000 miles on it when traded in.

[Dynaflash8]

You guys are all too young.  There were guys in the 1960s and before who turned back speedometers for a living like routemen.  They had regular routes and would go from one used car lot to another once a week and turn back the speedometers on all of the new stock.  Once I heard of a guy who turned back the speedometer before an auction.  A dealer bought it, had him turn back the speedometer again and run it through the auction again.  They didn't remove speedometers. They drilled them in the back I think, and either rolled them back with a pick or a drill.  It was really commonplace during and after WWII.

[Guest]

I was told that in the 30's and 40's in Manitoba all used cars were turned back to 0.0.  When I worked for a GM dealer in the 60's it was common to roll the speedos back somewhat.  Several old timers said the law changed after the war.  Prior to that the law was that a used car dealer had to zero the speedo.

[padgett]

http://www.dmv.org/odometer-disclosure-statement.php

[plymouthcranbrook]

12 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

In the early 1960's my buddy worked as a mechanic at a Dodge Dealership, one of the oldest in the country. His regular job every evening before leaving work was to hook up the "black box" to whatever vehicle needed rolled. He said it would roll off about 2000 miles overnight. Their goal was for the vehicle to show 40,000-42,000 "original" miles.

A friend of mine did this in the late 1960's while in High School for his local Ford Dealer(The Dealer is still in business)

[dibarlaw]

We bought a 1969 Buick LeSaber Convertible in 1973. At the time it showed 26,000 miles or so. I could not understand why it was having (older car problems). I put on new rocker arm assembly at around 40,000. Later I worked as the body man for the Buick dealer where I bought the car. The mechanics laughed when they told me why my 1969 showed so low a mileage. They said the car had over 70,000 when traded in. They rolled it back. Then, the boss's son would always drive a convertible to Florida. He drove mine twice to Florida with the speedometer disconnected. The odometer showed 145,000 when I sold it in 1979.

 Working in the Body shop of the Lincoln Mercury dealer in our town, I overheard a heated argument with one of the mechanics and the owner. The owner threatening the mechanic with his job if he did not turn back mileage on a 1966 Cadillac destined for the Perryopolis Auto Auction. I remember us driving 4 cars in caravan to the auction. The return car was a new 1974 Mercury Grand Marques. I remember that I drove a 70 Torino. Another car that went was a Gold 1968 Pontiac GTO. On the trip out part of the wiring harness on the Cadillac fell on the exhaust pipe, melted and shut it down. Justice?

 Ah.. Memories.

Edited March 1, 2017 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

In Driver's Ed class in high school in 1964 we were cautioned to be very skeptical of any car showing 40-42 thousand on the odometer.

[Restorer32]

In Driver's Ed class in high school in 1964 we were cautioned to be very skeptical of any car showing 40-42 thousand on the odometer.

[Restorer32]

Years ago I saw  a segment on 60 Minutes or some such show that investigated the hundreds of out of state car dealerships that had offices in New Jersey. Just simple one room offices, not dealerships. I forget the details but having an office in NJ allowed them to get NJ titles for wrecked, flood damaged, taxis and police cars and such without the titles being branded. Buy a flood car in PA, have your office in NJ get a clear title for it, sell it back to your actual dealership in PA and suddenly you have a car with potentially high profit without a branded title.

[R Walling]

 I noticed that  in every post, "I had a friend that did it for a side job"

 

 I'm glad that every poster here never personally did it.  (;-)

[Restorer32]

In Driver's Ed class in high school in 1964 we were cautioned to be very skeptical of any car showing 40-42 thousand on the odometer.

[Restorer32]

23 minutes ago, Roger Walling said:

 I noticed that  in every post, "I had a friend that did it for a side job"

 

 I'm glad that every poster here never personally did it.  (;-)

 

I admit to doing it, kind of. Before I had my license I would take Dad's '64 Coupe DeVille and run up and down the alley behind our house. Dad always left the keys in the car so when he was at work I would drive the alley. I would put maybe 2-3 miles on the odometer. When finished driving I would jack up the car and run it in reverse until the odometer returned to zero. Not sure if you could do this with every car but it worked on the Caddy. Dad never caught on. To keep brother quiet I threatened to tell Mom about his stash of " girly magazines" he had hidden in the attic.

[Doug Novak]

23 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Here in PA every year when you renew your registration you must note the mileage. Not saying mileage doesn't get changed but at least here in PA there is a paper trail. I think it's a pretty serious bust if you are caught........Bob

 

 

True but there is an exception, sort of. My '74 Porsche 914 when purchased six years ago was in Pa shows 75,693 miles on the OD and although Driven the  OD hasn't moved in the six years I've owned it , so true Mileage is unknown. The seller's Pa  Title Transfer documents indicates EXEMPT where mileage is to be indicated. Pa allows you to do this if there is no true mileage known. This exempt status once indicated on the Titled is unchangeable for the life of the car even if the OD is repaired. Yet the Title can be as normal with this exemption and all the required State Annual Inspections, Registration Renewal and the License Plate is like all other Cars, with another exception being re titling the vehicle for Antique Tags which is a one time cost only for as long as  anyone owns the car. I just submitted for Antique Tags for this car so it will no longer require the Annual State requirements and associated costs. The new title as Antique will also indicate Exempt Mileage and technically a limited use that I have yet to hear of ever been enforced.

[JACK M]

2 hours ago, Doug Novak said:

The new title as Antique will also indicate Exempt Mileage and technically a limited use that I have yet to hear of ever been enforced.

 

I drive a limited use car just about every time its not raining.

I got pulled over once for not having a front plate (not required on special interest cars).

The cop looked at my registration and knew that the front plate was not required on permanently registered cars and never asked why I was driving it.

I always have my excuse ready that I am either test driving or on my way back from the parts store but have never had to use it.

 

Sorry, not ODO related.

[intimeold]

On 2/28/2017 at 11:48 AM, 28 Chrysler said:

It was common in the 60s & 70s for people to bring me speedometers from cars they were working on to have the odometer set to match the cars actual  mileage (?) or show 000000.0 for a complete restored car.

 

Exactly,

 

Been there done that!

 

If the service manager, came to you with a set of keys and said put XXXXX miles on this one. You did it.

If you were working flat-rate ; this was a good paying job.

 

I even saw it in dealers, into the 90's.  Not only used car dealers; but franchised dealers too. In PA we have a State Inspection Sticker, on the windshield; it was renewed with the newer odometer reading.

 

That was then; now the speedometer has to be sent to a firm with the electronic equipment, to do so; or sent back to the factory. If sent back to the factory; it probably is done a vendor anyway.  Does this equipment exist outside of the factory, only a fool would deny it. Of course a statement has to be sent in with the speedo head; as to why the odometer change is warranted. Somebody signs off on that odometer statement. There are perfectly legal reasons why a odometer has to be adjusted; maybe a used speed head installed into another vehicle.  

 

Now with mileage statements required on trade-ins and cross checking of License, Insurance and State Inspection files; the dealers have to be careful.  

 

But on our collectable antique vehicles; it is still open season. Buyer Beware  

Edited March 3, 2017 by intimeold (see edit history)

[D Yaros]

On 2/28/2017 at 8:55 AM, Bhigdog said:

Here in PA every year when you renew your registration you must note the mileage. Not saying mileage doesn't get changed but at least here in PA there is a paper trail. I think it's a pretty serious bust if you are caught........Bob

As to the paper trail, if, as in most states, the DMV will not release that info to anyone, I have to wonder of what value is it to a prospective purchaser

[Doug Novak]

On 2/28/2017 at 9:55 AM, Bhigdog said:

 

On 2/28/2017 at 9:55 AM, Bhigdog said:

Here in PA every year when you renew your registration you must note the mileage. Not saying mileage doesn't get changed but at least here in PA there is a paper trail. I think it's a pretty serious bust if you are caught........Bob

 

 

• True but there is an exception, sort of. My '74 Porsche 914 when purchased six years ago was in Pa shows 75,693 miles on the OD and although Driven the  OD hasn't moved in the six years I've owned it , so true Mileage is unknown. The seller's Pa  Title Transfer documents indicates EXEMPT where mileage is to be indicated. Pa allows you to do this if there is no true mileage known. This exempt status once indicated on the Titled is unchangeable for the life of the car even if the OD is repaired. Yet the Title can be as normal with this exemption and all the required State Annual Inspections, Registration Renewal and the License Plate is like all other Cars, with another exception being re titling the vehicle for Antique Tags which is a one time cost only for as long as  anyone owns the car. I just submitted for Antique Tags for this car so it will no longer require the Annual State requirements and associated costs. The new title as Antique will also indicate Exempt Mileage and technically a limited use that I have yet to hear of ever been enforced

 

One other thought comes to mind about OD Mileage that I've run into on two vehicles is, the OD, if working would be reading less or more than the actual mileage. The Porsche has low profile tires with a smaller diameter then the original tires so the mileage would be indicated greater then the actual, and the Speedometer is also off indicating that at 60 MPH actual (per GPS), it reads 70 MPH.

 

My '69 Chevy Pickup has a different rear gear ratio then the original gearing which would indicate a much lower mileage then the actual. It was originally a 3 speed tranny (six) when my Father bought it new and I converted it a 4 speed tranny (V8) with a different rear gearing.

Eventually I was able find and change the little Speedo Gear to get it to read closer to what the actual speed is.

 

Point to this is who really know what true mileages are, best to look closely to the vehicles over all condition. There are older cars that are better cared for then many newer cars that have been beat to near death.  

Edited 2 minutes ago by Doug Novak (see edit history)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Bhigdog]

37 minutes ago, D Yaros said:

As to the paper trail, if, as in most states, the DMV will not release that info to anyone, I have to wonder of what value is it to a prospective purchaser

 

I'm guessing that info would be available to the appropriate agencies in the case of a fraud investigation. So, no immediate benefit  to a purchaser of a particular car but a valuable general deterrent to the practice of rolling them back...................Bob

[Bleach]

We had a pickup back in the 70's that the odometer stopped working after only about 1500 miles. When it came time to trade it in a few years later, we actually rolled the numbers forward to show something realistic, I think around 60K or so. After putting the speedometer back, it worked again.

[Frantz]

Also fun to note that everyone talks about the bad dealers doing it. Not one has suggested that folks would do it to their cars prior to trading them in! Lying is a two way street in the horse trade industries.

[cheezestaak2000]

in the late 60's, 1969 i think, i was ordered to knock 40,000 mile of a buick electra. that was an awful job, if you've ever pulled the speedo from one of these beasts. i later found out that the guy who bought the car told them to do it, he was the local chief of police  lol. a year or so later was working at a buick dealer and there was a guy who came around and set them back by ussing a special tool. he would drill a small hole in the speedo lens, and fish the tollin and reset the miles. when he was finished, he would put a plug, like the ones used on cars with no clock, in the hole.