"PROJECT" has now become nearly unaffordable to ever do ?

[arcticbuicks]

the more i see a 'project' now.....cars listed as a 'project'.......the more it appears to be unaffordable to ever restore a car these days........except a very few.

[Scooter Guy]

Restoration is generally a very expensive pursuit. 

 

It's always good to start with the "best" and most complete car you can. The worse it is, the more expensive it will be to restore it. 

 

In many cases finished cars that are running and driving are available for less than it would cost to restore a project car. 

 

This is especially true if you have to rely upon outside shops and vendors as a part of your restoration. Some parts are very scarce or completely unavailable which can make them expensive. Finish services are expensive, too...such as paint, plating (chrome, etc.), upholstery. Both materials and labor. Body work, machining, mechanical restoration work - all of that labor is expensive. 

 

It's very easy to quickly get underwater by spending far more on a restoration than the vehicle could ever realistically sell for. In that case it's an emotional project done for irrational reasons - the "labor of love," if you will. I've gone down that road a few times with two-wheelers knowing full well that what I was spending to restore them was exceeding the market value but I also felt that there were none existing on the market done the way that I wanted to restore them, so I did it anyway. I don't regret it and am happy with my vehicles though others would look at that and say that was remarkably foolish and a waste of money. I restored them because I loved them, not because I really cared what anyone else thought or what they were worth. When I'm dead and gone they'll probably get sold for pennies on the dollar, which is sad, but I can't worry about that now. 

 

Also, a project being too far gone is subjective - anything built by man can be rebuilt or restored by man. It just takes time and money to make that happen. 

[Gunsmoke]

I'm sure most if not all members on here will agree that restoring a car has been an "unaffordable" exercise for years if by that you mean "a financially negative end value". However, those same members will tell you the reasons for restoring a car or taking on a "project car" specifically are many. It may involve a car that means something special to them (had one 50 yrs ago, or have had since new and it needs to be redone), or simply be a hobby (like playing golf another expensive hobby with no return), it may be working for or with a friend or family member as a bonding exercise, it may be a car left to you by someone special, or it may just be a bucket list item. For some (like edinmass), it may be as an expert relied on by other people/owners. Regardless, we all have known for a long time, always better financially (if that's your only measuring stick) to buy something already finished. 

[arcticbuicks]

yes that is the general rule i have always thought ........but very recent i have seen the costs accelerate so much so that ........even a minor project car is quickly becoming unafforable ........more than ever

[Paul Dobbin]

Last week, Someone told me about a "1956 Studebaker Silver Hawk, that probably would need a paint job, with a For Sale sign on it".

I got careful ionstructions to go look a it.  

Turned out to be a 56 Studebaker President 4 door sedan.    Yes it needed a paint job, plus a ton of body work,

an engine, interior, all chrome needed redone, tires and a toral restoration.   All for only a price of $3000.   It was well on it's way to become Yard Art.   Seller was proud to have found a Ford 352 c.i. engene that was just sitting under the hood with the chain from the hoist still attached.   I think he planned on adding a hood scoop to be able to close the hood.

I passed.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[John Kelso]

I've been restoring cars for over 60 years, not because of the end value but because they spoke to me ever so softly "save me" sometimes I still here those words

[alsancle]

Most project cars have zero value past what they are worth for parts.

[John Kelso]

Why do so many place a monetary value on projects. Does spending a Saturday watching football seem worthwhile? How do you place a value in the shop with your son

or daughter? What about the value of learning how to do something differently? Research?

[Talarico8447]

It's had to find a car to restore today that's at an affordable price to obtain. Even if you have to drag it out of the mud with a family of Rats living in it people want a fortune for it. 

[arcticbuicks]

yes true......for us......but even the affordability of having a home with a  shop to spend time in with your son ,is increasingly difficult for much of the population

[JV Puleo]

Was it ever? I well remember "projects" that were unrealistic 40 years ago if you were kidding yourself that you could make a profit on it. There are a lot of good reasons why people undertake projects that will never show a profit...and why should they? As so many have pointed out, most "hobby's" don't do that...if any. A good friend took his wife to a pro football game last year for her birthday (she's the football fan). It cost him, all told, about $1000 between the tickets, parking and dinner etc. At least with a car you might get back 50 cents on the dollar which is a lot more than the golfers, sports fans and movie goers get. It seems to me that a lot of people in the car world are obsessed with profiting from their hobby which is, to my mind, simply absurd.

 

In my own case, I like engineering. I collect antique machine tools, 18th century arms and books. If I get hit by a bus some of those may be sold by my executor for more than I paid but I didn't get them in the first place in order to profit from them. I've already told him to simply give the machines away to one of my friends...I got them because they are important to me. I just gave away an antique drill press to someone who will use it. Any profit that comes from my collections will go to someone else.

 

 

[John Kelso]

articbuicks, thank you for pointing that out to me. I quite often forget how fortunate I am living in a small rural community. You just made me remember many years ago

when I had to work out of a rented garage. Yes I understand the limitations some work under and admire them for the perseverance. My shop is always open to anyone needing help

[arcticbuicks]

i made a good living with restoring various cars 20-40 years ago ........and not even on real high dollar cars .......chrome plating was affordable ,paint and body work .........so many things ........i think now it also a lack of shops doing each kind of work......and maybe even more the people that do the labour

[JV Puleo]

The problem with projects is the asking prices for them does not reflect the reality of the market. I attribute that to the many idiotic television shows and news items projecting the notion that there is "big money" to be made. Given the work I've done, my project was vastly overpriced...but I see that as the cost of admission. Markets adjust over time. This one is out of balance now but as things come to the market and there are no buyers, prices have to adjust. This is true with everything not just cars. I sometime wonder if this is and antique car forum or an antique car dealer's forum.

Edited November 8, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

not just the asking prices.........you could be offered a decent project for free........and maybe it is also some distance away.......just the cost to get it has become so expensive.........then start into what was not too bad for costs 10-15 years ago ......has become just insane 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, JAK said:

Does spending a Saturday watching football seem worthwhile?

I no longer have a TV, and proud of it!

 

Craig

[JV Puleo]

I don't either...and don't miss it.

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, 8E45E said:

I no longer have a TV, and proud of it!

15 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I don't either...and don't miss it.

 

I don't watch television either.

That makes three of us in a row here.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with JAK above--an excellent

restorer, by the way, and a real steam-car expert--that

there's so much more enjoyment to old cars than merely counting costs.

[arcticbuicks]

i no longer have a TV ......since the ones with rabbit ears and tin foil stopped picking up a signal

[1912Staver]

The only real advantage to doing a project yourself is that you then know the quality of work going in to it. Several times over the years I have seen cars bought by friends or years ago { 1994 was the last I was in the car trade }  customers brought in that had had very poor quality " restoration " work.  And just recently a friend still in the car trade showed me a set of photos of a recently done MGA that one of his customers had bought. Talk about crap work hiding under nice paint and interior. 

 If you do it correctly  yourself there will be no nasty surprises 3 or 4 years after the paint goes on.

[Hemi Joel]

5 hours ago, JAK said:

Why do so many place a monetary value on projects.

Well, as I see it, if you don't pay attention to your investment vs. return, and your expenses vs. income, you end up broke.   Cars make me happy, but so does not being broke. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Hemi Joel
fat fingers (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

Don't be reckless with money.  Don't spend your money foolishly and become a burden on other people.   If you have the money to spend on these "project" cars and it won't hurt you or your loved ones financially and it makes you happy, do it.  

 

 

[Andy J]

I'll try to make this short.I screwed around with cars into my early '20s.I sold my car,except for my daily ride.Got married,raised a family,and didn't have time or money for cars.However,I planned for the future,invested well,and told my wife that when I retire,If the Lord allowed me to,I was going to do cars again.

 

Fast forward 50 years.I never made much more than a living,but as I said,I invested what I could and it paid off.I bought 3 old cars,'50s models while I was still working.I retired 3 1/2 years ago,had a shop built,installed a lift in it,and bought everything I needed,and went to work on one of the cars.I knew the cars were a losing proposition,but I didn't do it for money.I work on the cars because I like it. I've almost finished one and have another I'm going to start on as soon as I can.My cars won't be worth what I have in them and I knew that from the start.If these cars get to be a burden on my wife and me,I'll get rid of them and find something else to keep me happy.Certainly I could have bought a car,completed and ready to drive,but that ain't me.I want to do it myself.

 

It's not about the money.It's about enjoyment and satisfaction,knowing that I did as much as I could myself.I take pride in that.

[3macboys]

While not exactly car related some of the skills I just transferred with my youngest are relatable to the wood working that is upcoming in one of our vehicles.  He was home on his reading week and wanted to build a shelf for his apartment.  Long story short, we took apart a cabinet that I had built 30 years ago when TV's were still a CRT and he used the various parts for his shelf.  Yes, he was a little taken aback when I told him he was doing all the work but that I would help.  That led to him doing 95% of the work and all of the planning and math involved.  The end result was a nice shelf unit that is all glued and doweled with no nails or screws.  In the process we discovered that we needed a couple more bar clamps and I ran out and grabbed the Dewalt ones to the tune of $100.  Rationally did that make sense, absolutely not, but the day after we took him back to school my wife sent me the picture of the antique shelf below as she was trying to hang a picture in the house.   My point being, what is the time worth spent with your kids in the shop and working alongside them?  And how much does what we do messing around with cars transfers to looking after other things in our world?  At the end of the day its really about "I did that".

[Littlestown Mike]

Well, you asked for it.......

I think that at least a part of the "need to restore" is driven by who we are.  The Scriptures say that man ( that is all of mankind--not just men, as opposed to women) was originally created " in the image of God"   I think that part of that image is the desire to "repair and restore".  God has been acting throughout history to "repair and restore" mankind. I do that in a very small way when I cut out rust and replace it with new metal.  I think "restoration" is built into our very nature---some of us more than others.

[Restorer32]

I'm convinced.  I'm sending the '33 Packard Conv 100% complete "project car" I have been trying to sell to the scrap yard.  At least I'll get a couple hundred for it.

[automaschinewerks]

I have got it through my head when i go to look at a car, which are all projects, that im underwater before i get it home.  But im doing them to drive. interior sides, headliner, carpets done and top vinyl installed $5000 (i kept the seat cushions themselves in the original upholstery).  rad shell chromed $1500.  oh yeah, bought a parts car in minnesota that dad trucked home for $2500 usd.   I bought the car for $7500 to begin with.  every separate task i plan for a saturday morning takes the whole morning.  i can see a restoration bill at a shop must have to be over $100000.  But im having fun.    

[8E45E]

10 hours ago, Hemi Joel said:

Well, as I see it, if you don't pay attention to your investment vs. return, and your expenses vs. income, you end up broke.   Cars make me happy, but so does not being broke. 

Balance is necessary.

 

12 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I wholeheartedly agree with JAK above--an excellent

restorer, by the way, and a real steam-car expert--that

there's so much more enjoyment to old cars than merely counting costs.

I find those who count the cost of every little thing before they proceed to do something are the least happiest in life.

 

Craig

Edited November 9, 2023 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

As I've said many times  "Pity the Philistine who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing".

[alsancle]

I think probably this conversation is too broad.   What I think of as a "project car" and what others may be thinking are different.  

 

So thinking about it more,  every single car including a Pebble Class winner is going to be a project car of some sort.   Keeping them running is a project.   There are cars that need more work and some need less.

I have a list for my Stearns, which is a great running/driving car that could keep me busy for years.

 

My new statement is that disassembled basket cases have no value.   Full restorations just don't make sense anymore and kudos to you that still have the skill and time to pull it off on your own.  There is 1 guy now for every 100 that existed 50 years ago.

 

Solid, but unmolested and not running instances of a cool car absolutely have value.

 

 

[8E45E]

8 minutes ago, alsancle said:

My new statement is that disassembled basket cases have no value.   

Solid, but unmolested and not running instances of a cool car absolutely have value.

I can't think of an application of Aristotle's statement that is more fitting than with vintage cars.  "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts!"

 

Craig

[leomara]

My latest experience is if your not working on a Ford or Chevrolet parts will be hard to find and expensive.  Any work needing to be performed by an outside source will defiantly be expensive.  Mechanical, body and upholstery are all at a premium today because the old timers have retired and skilled professionals in these disciplines have a captive audience.  Covid and the inflation which has resulted because of it makes our dollars worth much less than they were 3 years ago.  This hobby which I love has become a hobby of the wealthy.

[Dave Henderson]

1 hour ago, 8E45E said:

I can't think of an application of Aristotle's statement that is more fitting than with vintage cars.  "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts!"

 

Craig

Whoa,  isn't it sometimes the other way around?   Parting out in some instances makes more sense financially.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Dave Henderson (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

17 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

yes true......for us......but even the affordability of having a home with a  shop to spend time in with your son ,is increasingly difficult for much of the population

 

 Has always been thus.  Growing up, we were lucky if we had a shade tree under which to work.  

 

  Ben

18 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

yes that is the general rule i have always thought ........but very recent i have seen the costs accelerate so much so that ........even a minor project car is quickly becoming unafforable ........more than ever

 

[Skvitt]

I wouldn't start any projects, unless I'm confident I can do 99% of it by myself (including cars, house, boats, I've done it all). And I don't care if it won't be done to someone's highest standards. But seeing the quality of "professional" workmanship around here, I think those standards a pretty low around my area. And 1% of my current project is re-chroming that neither I can do myself nor I can afford to send it out. So will live with pitted pot metal and a bit rusty bumpers, so be it I don't care. For my daily drivers I also buy only vehicles that I can work on myself. Unfortunately I'm not getting any younger. Prices of parts and supplies are also getting thru the roof.

[Dr B]

It seems this topic get revived every so often. I agree with the basic premise. The cost of restoration (however you want to define it from limited to extensive) frequently (usually) exceeds to value of the car. However, last time I checked, I was not in the business to make money on my HOBBY. I would venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of people on this site are not in the business (I know a few of you are - thanks for all your hard work). I realize none of us want to lose our shirts on our (hobby) cars, but in the end it is a hobby. As pointed out by others here and previously, I am not aware of other hobbies or entertainment or vacations where one expects a return on their "investment" cost. I agree I can't do this and go broke. That is why we all, to the best of our abilities , assess the cost of each project. I think the real frustration occurs when our cost estimate is wildly off and we get too deeply in a hole with no end in sight of bleeding money and a non-drivable car.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Robert

Edited November 9, 2023 by Dr B (see edit history)

[Rusty Heaps]

Here we go again with “unprofitable “. Does anyone buy a boat and fishing tackle, or golf clubs and golf cart, or a motor home, etc. with the belief that they will turn a profit on a hobby? I hope not. Otherwise they’re deceiving themselves. Same with the car hobby. I say if you can resurrect an older vehicle that may otherwise not be around for future generations to see, then do so. Like Skvitt I am not concerned about perfection. I just want to enjoy some old cars and perhaps save some for the next generation. They aren’t making any more of most makes. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

18 minutes ago, Dave Henderson said:

Whoa,  isn't it the other way around?  

 

 No.   Yet as we use that quote today, we are a LITTLE off from the true thinking of the man. AND, he was not infallible, me thinks.

 

  Ben

[Xander Wildeisen]

I have always enjoyed working on my projects, turn on some music and dive in. You have to be able to do most of the work yourself. If you want to avoid the bulk of the financial cost involved in building/restoring a old car. Having friends that can lend their expertise is also a big help, if you do not have the knowledge on some aspects. The biggest mistake people make is in the initial purchase of the car. The condition, and what the purpose of the car will be when finished. Second mistake is how a person goes about starting and working through the project. A lot of time and money are waisted because a order of procedure is not followed. Third mistake, and hard to avoid. Getting involved with people who intend to rip you off, or bring harm to you or your project. Remember, your project has value. And that value goes backwards through the restoration process. Only starts to turn the corner on the finish end. And all projects have a known finished value. High end customs are the curve ball in known value. Cars are fun, the grinder that people can go through trying to complete a project, is not fun. And turns away hundreds of people from an industry.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Xander Wildeisen (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I think probably this conversation is too broad.   What I think of as a "project car" and what others may be thinking are different. 

This is a good point. In my case I was thinking of pre-war cars that are clearly not viable without spending many times their perceived value unless you have the capacity to do most of the work yourself. The aluminum head PI in Maine that was shown here some time ago is a good example. The price (I thought) was realistic at 30,000 but only if you have access to the skills and knowledge...regardless of the fact that "restored" (or at least running) examples usually carry a price tag closer to 3 times that. That was a project...My 1910 Mitchell is a "super-project". Incomplete to begin with, the ultimate floor sweepings car with even some of the parts that came with it not being right and impossible to replace. I wonder if I'd have undertaken it if I knew all that beforehand but I was looking for the largest, mostly complete pre-WWI car I could find. This was the best I could do on my budget and, truth to tell, I haven't seen a more attractive deal in the past 10 years. It's all well and good to say "buy the best you can afford"...if you can't afford much what you're really saying is "you don't have the wherewithall to participate".

 

No one is suggesting that anyone should go broke doing a project but life is full of choices. My income is probably in the bottom 10% in this forum. I don't eat out, go to the movies, play golf or watch television (so I don't pay cable bills). I'd rather be in my shop than the superbowl. (You'd have to pay me to go to a sporting event.) I've never made car payments and always driven bland, everyday used cars.  When you don't do the things that society generally expects its surprising how much you don't spend.