Mascot or no mascot? - (radiator caps)

[alsancle]

There are loads of period pictures showing this car delivered without.  However , the mascot was a period accessory and it has a nice story behind it.

[CChinn]

I always like seeing them with the mascot/hood ornament. For many pre war marques they were/are a unique identifying feature that I enjoy seeing. Have even collected a few (without the car)😀

[rocketraider]

Takes only a little time and effort to change out one for the other, right?

 

Now that you've piqued our interest, what's the story on the mascot?😎

[Walt G]

Yes, mascots were usually extra and most factory accessory catalogs show at least one version on offer at extra cost. I have at least one accessory catalog factory issued for Packard from 1920 thru 1942 ( yes it took years to locate and then afford to buy) plus the 1930-31 Franklin accessory sales catalog as well and maybe some others. Add to that the accessory stores like Nil Melior in NY City and the ones in Europe and the variety was very extensive. ( yes I have their catalogs of the era too)

I enjoyed the exchange of information and conversation about this with Bill Williams for years at Hershey .  And yes I collect collections - not extensively and not on purpose  just happens . 🥺

[John_S_in_Penna]

In the early era, people often chose mascots

that showed their interests or affiliations.

One c. 1910 account seems to indicate that some

people regarded them as "good luck" to accompany

them on their ride;  and in that account, a woman

made her own in a humorous vein, a doll with duster

and goggles.

 

Your mascot would be particularly interesting

with the car if there was an historical account 

that tells who chose it and why.

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

My 34 Packard came with the mascot which was optional per the build sheet (called "Emblem"). Like many I wanted a plain cap for times when I left the car unattended so I used a '32 Ford cap with a Packard base from Max Merritt.

[63RedBrier]

When you are driving AJ, I would have it on to act as a sentinel while guiding you down the road.  Of course, if you leave the car unattended, how quickly can you swap it out to the plain cap?  

[John Bloom]

It is really cool that you have that, and I’d be interested in hearing the story behind it. 
 

I think the calculated move is to ask your wife which look she likes better and then smile and say “I’m going to go with that”. Keep doing that as often as you can at every opportunity.  Then one day when you tell her “honey instead of spending our vacation week visiting your mother, I’m going to spend the money on a new top for the Stearns Knight”. You can reminder of how often you are giving into her preferences and I’m sure that will smooth it all over so it’s no big deal.

 

if she still isn’t speaking to you after 24 hours, send her a selfie of you smiling with the plane radiator cap clearly in the background.

[Matt Harwood]

I personally like having a hood ornament out there. I always feel as if it's going to take care of us as we drive. I especially liked the ladies on my Cadillacs, and oddly, I haven't really bonded with the greyhound on my Lincoln (maybe because it's a dog and it can't take care of us like the ladies).

Yes, stupid. But I like seeing them out there fearlessly leading the way as if nothing could go wrong.

 

Now back to the minimalism discussion.

[Guest]

I like seeing them but the primary concern is old potmetal being fragile and theft.  Replacement becomes an issue if something happens to it as well.  On my Buick as I need a cap I will be making one incorporating a reproduction in bronze.  I don't need to worry about the fragility of potmetal and theft of a reproduction isn't as bad as an original.

[edinmass]

If you don’t leave the cap on that car, you’re gonna have to send it to me. So make up your mind and live with it.
 

🤔

[ch1929]

I like seeing the mascots on the cars.

[TAKerry]

They are truly works of art, and some very interesting indeed, my favorite is still the Mack Bulldog!

[John Bloom]

AJ, you didn’t show your cards and I don’t think anybody’s asked you yet, but which do you prefer?

[60FlatTop]

I looked at that first picture and expected to see an archer in the second. But the headlights weren't looking right.

 

Sure looks a lot like a Pierce-Arrow radiator.

 

I have been feeling in trouble mode since I left the China Buffet yesterday and the heat ain't helping.

[alsancle]

34 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

AJ, you didn’t show your cards and I don’t think anybody’s asked you yet, but which do you prefer?

You know what prefer.

 

I will find and post the mascot story.  It is cool and involves our friend Mark Young who just passed.

[1935Packard]

AJ, as you know, I've been thinking a lot about the mascot or no mascot question on my '35.  Just bought a bale-wire radiator cap for it, actually.  (As an aside, yes, it is silly for a grown man to be thinking about this, but hey, it keeps us off the streets.) My 2 cents:  On a car as rare as your Stearns, a correct mascot is really cool, and you should lean in favor of using it.  It's different with a more common car, as people who know pre-war cars know the mascots of Packards, Cadillacs, etc.  But a correct mascot on your Stearns is a neat indicator of how different your Stearns is; it invites people who see it to realize it's a very rare car and to notice what is different.  My 2 cents.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I bought a nice restored plain cap for the A and never put it on, still if I can find the basic one for the Packard I will probably buy it as well, wrap it up and forget it as well.

Mascot is a good giude as has been said before, and with the story it adds interest.  So nice to have options but run with the mascot.

@Matt Harwood, you know what they say about people that don't like dogs.... 😉😁  

[zepher]

I like to see pre-war cars with mascots, it's part of their personality.

Each manufacturer chose their mascot for a reason.  And most times it was chosen after many hours of bantering back and forth within the organization.

Some mascots are self explanatory while others need some research to find out why they were used.

[wayne sheldon]

One of my longtime best friends (passed away too young about ten years ago), had a 1929 model A town sedan with quite a few accessories on it. One was an original "baby Lincoln" leaping greyhound. A few years later he sold the model A and bought a nice 1925 Lincoln seven passenger sedan! It had the bigger Lincoln leaping greyhound. I rode (and sometimes drove) many miles following those dogs. 

Being that I favor earlier cars, I am more accustomed to dogbones or sometimes wings and Motometers on the front of cars. They do tend to attract the eye, but I like them there. I also tend to follow the era norms. Many types of mascots were being offered by 1920. Diving women (usually wearing a swimsuit in the earlier ones!) were popular as well as birds, dogs and other animals. Fraternal organizations began much earlier and continued on until radiator caps were hidden under the hood.

Such mascots were part of the history of our automobiles. As such, I love them, both on the car and on a shelf to be seen. But I also love the look of the cars with plain radiator caps.

For my 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan, I have both an original Paige standard radiator cap, which in itself is a bit fancy with a wreath around it and a small adornment in the center, as well as an original same cap with the adornment removed and optional "Paige" labeled Boyce Motometer. I also have an original era nickel plated brass dogbone cap that is a perfect fit with another "Paige" labeled Boyce Motometer. It is all in beautiful original condition. But somehow I don't care for the look of the dogbone cap on the Paige.

Decisions, decisions, if I ever get the Paige done.

Ruminations. I don't know if that helps any with your decision.

[alsancle]

OK, I apologize.  I cannot find the article on the mascot anywhere.  Which is strange.  Not in my binder, email or in the Stearns Knight thread.

 

The basic gist of it was Mark Young and I believe Peter Woyen were wandering around Hershey and they discovered the knight ornament.   It might have been the Dragone tent.  To that point there was not a single eight cylinder car with the knight ornament known to exist and no period pictures except for a single magazine advertisement.   They gave the original ornament to Don Sommers who reproduced them. 

 

The previous owner of my car bought the ornament from Don Sommers.   When I asked about the plain cap he said that the knight cost him 5K and if I took it off I needed to give it back to him.  So now I have he and Ed fighting over it.

 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

AJ, you sure it was Dragone boys?  They have mascots? 

[Gary_Ash]

Studebaker had a great bird ornament in 1931, used for a couple of years.  When the Studebaker Indy cars were being fabricated for the 1932 Indy 500, birds appear on the radiator shell.  Of course, they never raced that way, would not have been allowed on the track at Indy with something as deadly to other drivers.  They always had flat caps.  

 

I did shell out big bucks for a bird thinking I would use it for shows, but I wound up using a remote radiator fill under the hood, if only to comply with current rules for antique speed events that require overflow/recovery tanks.  I used a bolted clamp to hold the flat cap solidly on top of the grille because at today's car shows, pocket-size shiny bits can disappear quickly.  I need to find a place on my desk for the bird.

 

Three of the five 1932 Studebaker Indy cars during assembly, birds in place.  Clearly a posed shot, and no other photos ever show the birds in place, only flat caps.

 

Replica bird, possibly by Ken Thornton.

 

  

My grille shell with bolted flat cap (backwards; I turned it around later).  Note remote fill behind radiator.

 

[alsancle]

Definitely easier to see without the big ornament.  

[mrspeedyt]

when I had my 1970 Mercedes 300 SEL 6.3 I removed

the stock mascot from the grill shell and replaced it with a slightly convex chromed cover that snapped into place. to me it was a much cleaner look.

Edited July 30, 2023 by mrspeedyt (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

I kind of like the horseman. It has a lot of mass. Also the Queen insisted on it.

[BillinMd]

No one has mentioned the Pierce Arrow guy yet.

Say your driving along and a Pierce pulls up behind you. You look in your rear view mirror and see that hood ornament staring at you. It's like saying:  Pull Over  let me by!

Especially if it was a 12!

I like the original ornaments as it adds a distinctive look to any automobile.

 

[Joe in Canada]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

Definitely easier to see without the big ornament.  

It is definitely  better than looking around a blower sticking out of the hood!!!

[pmhowe]

It's all personal preference, of course. I always think the archer on a Pierce sets it off. I think a Stearns Knight has an understated elegance that needs no fancy cap. Just my view.

[alsancle]

I was interested in what everyone else had to say and we are 50/50 or 60/40 use the Knight.   

 

Generally I view hood ornaments as a distraction.  The exceptions are the Mercedes star and the RR Spirit of Ecstasy which are iconic.   I'm 50/50 on the Pierce Archer.   Maybe I'm missing another iconic one?   Don't like the donut catcher or the cormorant.

[Walt G]

It depends upon the year and the styling of the car. When the Art Deco styling started to influence/appear on vehicles from cars, trucks, and trains, there were some more ornaments that reflected the styling and some that complimented it . The stylized bird on the 1931 to 1933 Franklin is one example,  The wings of the Chrysler Airflow - especially the 1934 cars - outstanding and enhance the look of the car - is a finishing touch, not a pasted on statue. ( I know those last words are a bit harsh but that is what I am reading into this topic - plain nothing to not interfere with the overall cars design, or add a statue as a symbol of the car to distinguish it from any other) The Stutz Ra head also is complimentary to the car, does not overpower the appearance in the slightest.

[John Bloom]

I like it.  I generally like all of them (The Franklin Lion is a favorite of mine).  But as you and others have said, it can go either way.  The good thing is you have the correct one and have this fun choice.  It might be in the years of ownership of the car you have a five year phase of liking it, and then a seven year phase of preferring to leave it off.  Nothing wrong with that.   One thing for sure, when it isn't closely watched and secure......keep that thing off the car and out of sight.  

[Matt Harwood]

AJ, I think you're torn simply because you like having the knight but not so much using it. I'm the same way--I kept the lady hood ornament for my '29 Cadillac that Melanie bought me even though I sold the car. You know, just in case. In your situation, with having to give it to someone if you don't use it, you're clearly divided. You don't want to use it, but you don't want to be without he opportunity to use it if you want to. Worse, it sounds like if you do decide to give it up, someone will be unhappy anyway (am I reading this correctly--there are two people who hope to have it should you decide not to install it?).

 

I think your instinct to leave it off the car is the right one for you. But whether the problems caused by NOT using it are worth the hassle is something only you can decide.

 

I also wonder if it is something that should stay with this particular car. It's a significant car and even though most photos show it with the flat cap, there appears to be at least some evidence that it was shown WITH the hood ornament on at least one occasion, right? Both the car and the knight ornament are exceedingly rare (both one of one?) so perhaps you owe it to history to keep them together.

 

I realize this probably isn't much help. But this is far more complex than "which one do you like better?" What does your gut tell you is the right thing to do, not necessarily the stylish thing to do?

[Roscoe]

I think Mr. Harwood is dead on.

Personally, I love the mascot, but I'd be scared to leave it for any amount of time for fear it would leave me.

[Brass is Best]

I saw a big Lincoln K at Hershey once. The greyhound dog mascot was wearing a knitted sweater. The lady with the car said that she made him (the dog) one for every season. Mascots are always fun to see especially the rare ones. I have a pretty neat one on my 1932 Ford.

[CChinn]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I was interested in what everyone else had to say and we are 50/50 or 60/40 use the Knight.   

 

Generally I view hood ornaments as a distraction.  The exceptions are the Mercedes star and the RR Spirit of Ecstasy which are iconic.   I'm 50/50 on the Pierce Archer.   Maybe I'm missing another iconic one?   Don't like the donut catcher or the cormorant.

What are your thoughts on the Jaguar mascot? Iconic or just another leaping animal like the greyhound?  I like it, but I’m a fan of these items 

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, CChinn said:

What are your thoughts on the Jaguar mascot? Iconic or just another leaping animal like the greyhound?  I like it, but I’m a fan of these items 

 

I, for one, am pretty sick of civilians looking at my Lincoln's greyhound and saying, "Hey, nice Jag!"

[tcslr]

Duesenberg would look odd - to me- without its mascot.  The think the standard winged 8 on 30-31-32 Buicks looks quite nice - clean.

The winged cap on 29-30 Chryslers looks very nice and clean - to me. I like the impala but like the minimalist wings better.

Bugatti elephant is a bit much but certainly iconic.  I think it looks 'better' without it.

Bentley, Jaguar, Hispano Suiza stork - that is cool.  better with.

Not so much the quail on Model As.

[TexRiv_63]

Prewar cars with exterior radiator caps were designed for mascot type ornaments or at least a nice Boyce Motometer. My original 34 Chevy 3 window coupe came with a plain cap, I was able to find an original Ternstedt bird that was structurally sound but had the right patina to match the rest of the car. I soaked the screws in WD-40 for a week and added a new base from The Filling Station.

[wayne sheldon]

8 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

AJ, I think you're torn simply because you like having the knight but not so much using it. I'm the same way--I kept the lady hood ornament for my '29 Cadillac that Melanie bought me even though I sold the car. You know, just in case. In your situation, with having to give it to someone if you don't use it, you're clearly divided. You don't want to use it, but you don't want to be without he opportunity to use it if you want to. Worse, it sounds like if you do decide to give it up, someone will be unhappy anyway (am I reading this correctly--there are two people who hope to have it should you decide not to install it?).

 

I think your instinct to leave it off the car is the right one for you. But whether the problems caused by NOT using it are worth the hassle is something only you can decide.

 

I also wonder if it is something that should stay with this particular car. It's a significant car and even though most photos show it with the flat cap, there appears to be at least some evidence that it was shown WITH the hood ornament on at least one occasion, right? Both the car and the knight ornament are exceedingly rare (both one of one?) so perhaps you owe it to history to keep them together.

 

I realize this probably isn't much help. But this is far more complex than "which one do you like better?" What does your gut tell you is the right thing to do, not necessarily the stylish thing to do?

 

I think Matt's assessment here is pretty much right on! I do think for several reasons that that particular cap does belong with that particular car. I also feel that keeping the mascot ornament ON the car at all times is unrealistic. Using it on the car some times, for certain shows or maybe even just sitting in your own building is the right thing to do. However, other times, some shows where you may prefer to show the car as it was often shown when new, or simple local drives or even a lot of local club events, the mascot should be left home on its special place on the shelf.

I of course do not know the whole situation, however I tend to feel that keeping the mascot cap on the car part of the time, and basically near or with the car most of the rest of the time, basically fulfills your personal obligation to keeping the cap on the car. I mean, realistically, "all" the time isn't realistic. How would one add water to the radiator? Or, how about during the time the car was being serviced and sorting and detailing done?

Just a few more thoughts from silly me.