Great Opportunity or Fools Errand? 1939 Cadillac 60 Special

[Twisted Shifter]

There is a 1939 Cadillac 60 Special project posted in the "Not Mine" for sale forum section. The craigslist listing details are here:

https://reno.craigslist.org/cto/d/washoe-valley-1939-cadillac-60-special/7507702075.html

 

I can appreciate all the work that has aleady gone into this restoration and the popularity of this make and model. The asking price is probably just a small part of the parts, labor and outside services that the seller has spent. However the work remaining to get this car to "driver" condition, much less a #2 condition, is in the tens of thousands at best. 

       

My question is: "Could a buyer/restorer with the ability and time to tackle this project come close to ever breaking even after "investing" in body work, paint, interior, chrome, missing parts, and doing, himself, what a talented, non-professional "home garage" mechanic could do? Even the most talented of us would require some outside help to complete such a job.

 

I'm sure a lot of us have attempted to complete projects such as this, and many have lived to tell about it. I'd like to know the general consensus on bringing this Cadillac home (or not) and maybe a war story (successful or not) about such attempts. Before and after pictures welcome!

 

This is not a "discouraging word"; just my thoughts and a request for discussion.

[alsancle]

The short answer is: no. 
 

Free with a trunk load of cash would not be a good deal.

[ericmac]

I saw that car also and gave it some thought. If it was a car I loved (in my case, 29-33 Franklin or 46-48 Nash) I would be all over it partially because so much has been done. Given that the car is not at the top of my most wanted list, I would not think about the OP discussion car personally, but that's just a matter of taste. In order to buy in and complete the job of any restoration you first have to love the car a lot more than the potential return on your investment. That's my two cents worth. 

[TAKerry]

A hard NO to the Caddi. I dont know those cars but unless its the VERY last one it looks like a good starter kit for the parts business.

 

As for stories, I kinda bought my Trans Am sight unseen. I saw an ad in paper form, it was for sale in FLA and I am in MD. Pics looked good and was exactly what I was looking for, the price was right. Deposit sent, hooked up the trailer and off I went. Car was a lot more rusty than I thought but I figured I drove this far and was not going home empty handed. Upon teardown the car was even worse. After a 6 year restoration it came out ok and good enough for me to drive around and have fun with. I think my main motivation was when my older brother stopped by one day, seeing the shell of the car only on the rotisserie, he stepped into the garage, looked around for a few minutes then said,  'I sure hope you know how this thing goes back together'. Without saying another word, turned around, got on his motorcycle and left! Thats all I needed to hear, LOL. I did everything but the motor work. I worked on it as my bank account allowed and when the car was finished I had zero debt on it. I wont divulge numbers but I can assure you I can sell it for many times what the restoration cost me minus my time. I started another restoration of the same model and am just about finished. Again knowing what I have into it and estimating the cost to finish I will come out ahead. But a Trans Am is pretty easy to restore and parts availability are great compared to a pre war Cadillac.

[Rusty_OToole]

How about this. Could you buy a fully restored 39 Cadillac 60 for what it would cost to restore that one? It bothers me a bit when people compare a fully restored car to an average unrestored car.  How about the guy with some time and skills and tools but not much money who can afford to buy that car and spend a few hundred a month on parts and materials until it is done. He could get a nice car that way that he might not otherwise afford. I know it usually does not pay to restore a car but then it never did.

Wonder how many Duesenbergs were scrapped in the forties and fifties because it would have cost $5000 to restore them and they weren't worth it.

[EmTee]

2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

How about the guy with some time and skills and tools...

Labor - that's typically what drives the restoration cost.  If someone has the skills, time and money for parts a car like this could be a reasonable way into a car that might otherwise be unaffordable.  As already mentioned above, the car has to be desirable to the owner/restorer, otherwise the fire will eventually go out and the car may once again be passed along unfinished...

[8E45E]

It's a GREAT OPPORTUNITY for someone who wants one and really knows what their getting into, as it appears to be complete with the engine and some of the other mechanicals already done, and knows what a high-end paint finish and broadcloth interior is going to cost on a car like this.  The selling price is a lure.

 

Its a FOOLS ERRAND for someone who thinks they can buy what's there for this price, and thinks they can have it restored by next year for another $4K.

 

Craig

[Walt G]

Note the listing of condition: Salvage. Unfortunately that is what it is. Despite being fairly solid from lack of major  rust ; just the cost to replate all the parts ( besides the obvious grille, bumpers etc - window trim, dashboard pieces etc ) the cost of the interior materials and labor, and the cost for the primer, lacquer etc. You would be over the top in the car if you got it for free. Sad because it is a great looking car.

[8E45E]

I'd love to see it restored, but like most everyone here, I'm also in the "If I was 20 years younger" stage in my life.

 

Craig

[Matt Harwood]

Short answer: No.

 

Long answer: Nnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooo.

[Bhigdog]

All of the above plus............Title "MISSING".....................Bob

[58L-Y8]

No, any restoration effort is uneconomic.  Only the unique combination of restoration skills and facilities, desire to own at pre-war 60 Special, cost-be-damned approach to achieve the results and enjoyment of the restoration process could put this 'humpty-dumpty' back together again.  Unfortunately, this 60 Special is condemned to become a resto-rod.

[Gunsmoke]

If you have a place to store it for the time being, I'd buy it. at $4K-$5K. It could likely be made into a decent driver for little extra, perhaps 10K total, and it will be the only one around. Down the road you might then find a buyer interested in the full restoration deal. Be a shaME TO SEE IT GO TO  RODDER JUST FOR A chopped body!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I am with Gunsmoke. 

  Engine is worth more than asking price.  Car DOES NOT NEED  full restore. Sympathetic is good enough.  If it was setting in my garage I believe I could have it decent for a total of 10 or 12.  I KNOW I could for 20.  My 1950 Buick was worse.  I had to rebuild the engine and was in for under 16.  I have had more fun than anybody can with their boots on. And still worth what I have in it.

 

  But you folks that think you can't do it without buckets of cash are right.  YOU can't.

 

  Ben

[1912Staver]

It looks like a good starting point for a very capable, 60 Special fan. Only a handfull of the " ready to use " 60 Specials you find for sale will actually be as good as they might look. 

 But no, not a quick , cheap project. Bruce is correct . This car + not a small amount of money , plus many hours and you will end up with a car you know inside out and can depend on. 

 To see what can happen when the decent appearing car you buy instead of a car like this ends up being far worse than appearance would suggest , just look up Matt's Lincoln saga. 

 Not for beginners and not for the impatient or poverty stricken. But far from hopeless.

 If the aim is a reliable driver, re using the brightwork and interior as much as possible , even though it might be a bit scruffy will save a great deal on professional skills costs. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Depends on the buyer.  For me no way.  

 

I have a buddy whose mainly interested in restoration and challenges.  We see parts cars, he sees something no one else would touch.  "Hmm, roof is caved in.  Easier to find another one and cut this one off than straighten it."  On some derelect sedan...

 

At around age 18 he designed and machined a better water pump impeller to help cooling on a Model A, still in the car today,  veteran of many hot parades.. 

 

He would, could put something like this back together but the cost in labor and hard cost would make no sense.  That only matters to those who care about it though...

Edited July 13, 2022 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[Mark Huston]

7 hours ago, Twisted Shifter said:

"Could a buyer/restorer with the ability and time to tackle this project come close to ever breaking even after "investing" in body work, paint, interior, chrome, missing parts, and doing, himself, what a talented, non-professional "home garage" mechanic could do?

In my experience, over 50 years involved in antique cars, when working on collector cars, with very rare exceptions, you will never "break even."   You work on a car, restore, fix up, or restore, with the understanding this is a hobby, not an investment, and there are no expectations of getting your money back down the road.  Never take on a project thinking you will ever come close to breaking even.  Take on the project because you have a hobby that you enjoy throwing money at and the life experiences that it gives you.    I have never experienced a return on my investment in 50 years of antique car ownership.  However, I have had some great experiences that have been priceless.

[Larry Schramm]

7 hours ago, Twisted Shifter said:

 My question is: "Could a buyer/restorer with the ability and time to tackle this project come close to ever breaking even after "investing" in body work, paint, interior, chrome, missing parts, and doing, himself, what a talented, non-professional "home garage" mechanic could do? Even the most talented of us would require some outside help to complete such a job.

 

Standard joke is: How do you turn $50,000 into $15,000?  Easy, restore a car.  There are exceptions though.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

On further analysis there is another thing that bothers me about this negative attitude towards restoring this car. There was a time when home restorations were the norm. Then a period when the best restorations were by professional shops. Now it seems like, with very few exceptions, there are NO cars that are worth restoring. All this speaks to a change in society that I don't think much of. Let me explain.

 

When I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago you could walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on a Saturday morning and see a guy painting his fence, another guy working on his boat, someone else giving his car a tuneup, planting a tree, and so on. These days it seems young people have no skills and are not interested in learning. If they can't buy it or hire it done they do without. They know what they do for a living, just well enough to get by, and how to play video games and that's it. I guess that is the world we live in now but I can't help feeling something is missing in society.

[63RedBrier]

2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

On further analysis there is another thing that bothers me about this negative attitude towards restoring this car. There was a time when home restorations were the norm. Then a period when the best restorations were by professional shops. Now it seems like, with very few exceptions, there are NO cars that are worth restoring. All this speaks to a change in society that I don't think much of. Let me explain.

 

When I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago you could walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on a Saturday morning and see a guy painting his fence, another guy working on his boat, someone else giving his car a tuneup, planting a tree, and so on. These days it seems young people have no skills and are not interested in learning. If they can't buy it or hire it done they do without. They know what they do for a living, just well enough to get by, and how to play video games and that's it. I guess that is the world we live in now but I can't help feeling something is missing in society.

My niece and her husband are both school teachers.  While they will do some things around their home/lot, I'm astonished to learn how much they have paid others to do!  They DO take great care of their first born, but spend plenty of time on FB, playing D&D, and getting tattoos!   

[Buffalowed Bill]

It's both a great opportunity and a fools errand. It just depends on who the new owner, his level of knowledge, and expectations. IMHO this is a car that could and should be saved. While not economically justifiable, saving somethin is it's own reward.

[Rusty_OToole]

Some years back a friend of mine restored a 1967 Camaro. He did not have a lot of money, and at that time an early Camaro was not nearly as expensive as they are today. He spent 3 or 4 years of spare time going over every part of that car. The window winder mechanisms were carefully cleaned, adjusted and lubricated, same with the windshield wiper mechanism, doors hung with care and latches perfectly adjusted etc.

When he was done the windshield wipers were perfectly silent, windows went up and down easily and smoothly,  doors shut with a gentle click, everything worked like the most expensive luxury car. He still has that car some twenty odd years later and still enjoys driving it in the summer.

[Rivguy]

I think that an important factor in the car owning/building equation is starting with a car that you really want. It could be because of a family connection. Or it could be something that you have genuinely wanted for years. This way no matter how long it takes, or how much it cost, you end up with something that satisfies you. 

I'm a big proponent of the DIY, pay as you go method, but I will admit that it isn't always isn't a guarantee of a good financial outcome. A finished car is often the best deal. It's just hard to come up with all the money up front. But all the expenses have already been paid for with a finished car, starting with a "builder" leaves all the expensive tasks ahead, even if the owner plans on doing a lot of the labor themselves. It's easy to convince yourself that it won't end up costing "that much." I joke that the situation with my XJS is that it's a 3,500 dollar car, that needs 10,000 dollars of work, to be worth 7,500!

My XJS is a car that I like, but I don't like it that much. That's part of the problem. That's why I haven't made it a real priority. At least it's a runner, if it was in pieces I'm sure that it would sit even longer.

 

[TAKerry]

27 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

On further analysis there is another thing that bothers me about this negative attitude towards restoring this car. There was a time when home restorations were the norm. Then a period when the best restorations were by professional shops. Now it seems like, with very few exceptions, there are NO cars that are worth restoring. All this speaks to a change in society that I don't think much of. Let me explain.

 

When I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago you could walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on a Saturday morning and see a guy painting his fence, another guy working on his boat, someone else giving his car a tuneup, planting a tree, and so on. These days it seems young people have no skills and are not interested in learning. If they can't buy it or hire it done they do without. They know what they do for a living, just well enough to get by, and how to play video games and that's it. I guess that is the world we live in now but I can't help feeling something is missing in society.

I am pushing 60. Pop drug me off to work when I hit 14. Never a dull moment. I played ball in school, band, etc. No computer until I was about 40 and besides the AACA forum I could live without it!  I have relatively new neighbors across the street. They are mid 30's with a few kids. NEVER see them outside, except the 2 times a month he attacks his yard with the tractor. The other day the 'grandmother' stopped by to talk to my wife. This is the husbands grandmother, she was at their house cleaning, and vaccuming. Said the grand daughter in law was on her phone watching the entire time. No, I dont see much of a work ethic anymore!!

[Rusty_OToole]

The Cadillac sixty special really is special and different from all other Cadillacs . I can see where someone would restore one where they would not restore a run of the mill 61 sedan. More comparable to the Lincoln Continental  or Packard Darrin specialty cars.

[31 LaSalle]

35 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

On further analysis there is another thing that bothers me about this negative attitude towards restoring this car. There was a time when home restorations were the norm. Then a period when the best restorations were by professional shops. Now it seems like, with very few exceptions, there are NO cars that are worth restoring. All this speaks to a change in society that I don't think much of. Let me explain.

 

When I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago you could walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on a Saturday morning and see a guy painting his fence, another guy working on his boat, someone else giving his car a tuneup, planting a tree, and so on. These days it seems young people have no skills and are not interested in learning. If they can't buy it or hire it done they do without. They know what they do for a living, just well enough to get by, and how to play video games and that's it. I guess that is the world we live in now but I can't help feeling something is missing in society.

how true 

[8E45E]

45 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

When I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago you could walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on a Saturday morning and see a guy painting his fence, another guy working on his boat, someone else giving his car a tuneup, planting a tree, and so on.

A lot more stuff is now 'maintenance free' (as in 'it will wear out, or go out of style first before looking shabby'), or it can't be 'owner serviced' without special tools and diagnostic equipment.

 

Craig

[1935Packard]

51 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

When I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago you could walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on a Saturday morning and see a guy painting his fence, another guy working on his boat, someone else giving his car a tuneup, planting a tree, and so on. These days it seems young people have no skills and are not interested in learning. If they can't buy it or hire it done they do without. They know what they do for a living, just well enough to get by, and how to play video games and that's it. I guess that is the world we live in now but I can't help feeling something is missing in society.

 

50 or 60 years ago, the guys who were working on a boat or giving a car a tune up on the weekend probably had wives who were inside taking care of the children, cleaning the house, out doing the shopping, etc.  These days, it's more likely that both the husband and wife are working full time jobs; that they are both sharing the child care; both doing the shopping; etc.  It's not that "the guys" have no interest in learning new skills like repairing a car, it seems to me; it's that they're too busy doing other necessary things to have the luxury to spend time on other things. 

[Grimy]

14 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

50 or 60 years ago, the guys who were working on a boat or giving a car a tune up on the weekend probably had wives who were inside taking care of the children, cleaning the house, out doing the shopping, etc.  These days, it's more likely that both the husband and wife are working full time jobs; that they are both sharing the child care; both doing the shopping; etc.  It's not that "the guys" have no interest in learning new skills like repairing a car, it seems to me; it's that they're too busy doing other necessary things to have the luxury to spend time on other things. 

And...somewhere in the 1980s (it seems) salaried jobs began demanding 55-60 hour weeks, paid for 40 hrs, "if you want to demonstrate your commitment to the company so you can progress in your field."

[28 Chrysler]

If you have the skills go for it or if you want to learn some skills go for it.

If you have to pay someone to do a lot of the work walk away.

Do not look at it to make money.

 

A professional makes a living at what his job entails, talent wise he may not be very good at it.

[TAKerry]

4 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

50 or 60 years ago, the guys who were working on a boat or giving a car a tune up on the weekend probably had wives who were inside taking care of the children, cleaning the house, out doing the shopping, etc.  These days, it's more likely that both the husband and wife are working full time jobs; that they are both sharing the child care; both doing the shopping; etc.  It's not that "the guys" have no interest in learning new skills like repairing a car, it seems to me; it's that they're too busy doing other necessary things to have the luxury to spend time on other things. 

I am closing in on 37 years of marriage. We have both worked full time jobs the entire time. Raised kids and now grand kids. Always cut my own grass, painted my own fences, restored a couple of cars etc. BUT, I like the idea of people now paying others to do work for them, thats what keeps food on my table and antique cars in my garage.

[Ed Luddy]

The amount of hours labour and extra trim,detail items and complexity on a Cadillac compared to a same year pre war Chevrolet or Ford will be about 5x's. That I was warned about from an expert body guy.

 He was spot on in his estimate on a late 70's Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham vs. a Chev Caprice.

[cxgvd]

I restore my own cars in my driveway so to speak.  Usually, by providing the labour the cost is about the same as buying a so so restored vehicle.  My cars are the colours and upholstery I choose, if you buy a car you must accept the tastes of others.  When I am out and about and someone asks, yes, I made it myself.

 

Regards, Gary

[Restorer32]

Sometimes you are better off doing what you do best so you can afford to pay someone else to do what they do best.

[Restorer32]

We restored an identical ambulance some years ago.  Plenty of room in the back to hide an a/c unit in a faux medicine cabinet.  Be careful with those rear curved windows. Break one and you've got a problem.

[31 LaSalle]

9 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Sometimes you are better off doing what you do best so you can afford to pay someone else to do what they do best.

That statement is so true

[1912Staver]

I look at it a bit differently. Before retirement I earned slightly less than 1/2 the typical professional labor rate / hour, before tax. So after tax  about 3 hours of my employment was equal to 1 hour at a shop.  

 But first deduct all my normal living expenses to find out what fraction of my income was left over and therefore disposible income. The best figure I ever could work out was about $5.00 / hour I worked ,that actually could be concidered disposible / hobby spending money. 

 So roughly 20 hours of me at work in order to pay 1 hour at a shop. 2 hours shop time per week at work. I do nearly EVERYTHING myself .

 Perhaps you have a very good paying career , and live in a very modest house, low cost of living area. Unfortunately some of us don't.

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[CHuDWah]

On 7/13/2022 at 4:38 AM, Twisted Shifter said:

...My question is: "Could a buyer/restorer with the ability and time to tackle this project come close to ever breaking even after "investing" in body work, paint, interior, chrome, missing parts, and doing, himself, what a talented, non-professional "home garage" mechanic could do? Even the most talented of us would require some outside help to complete such a job...

 

Course pictures may not tell the whole story but this one (not mine) looks pretty nice:

 

 

1939 Cadillac Series 60 Special Sedan

 

Asking $32K which doesn't seem unreasonable.  So my question is, "Can you restore the OP car to the same level for that amount?"

[1912Staver]

No.   If someone buys this one for say 30 K they also should also buy the other one for 4 K assumming it's reasonably close. Both look like good deals for what they are. A good one to drive and a parts car that is in fact a pretty good car as well. If you ever need an engine you are way ahead of the game. Perhaps some day they might both end up as drivers. You never know what the future may bring.