"Clone" definition

[MotiveLensPhoto]

I skim (as a lot of us probably do) cars for sale, and occasionally see cars listed as "clones." Usually it's 1965 - 1975 GM products, especially the Cutlass 442. What is the basic definition of a "clone" in this context?

[joe_padavano]

The definition of "clone" in this context is "a word that sounds less offensive than FAKE."  Of course, like "numbers matching" and "classic," people who use these words typically have no clue what they're SUPPOSED to mean. For example, how can a car that never existed (like a Faux Four Two built on a notchback Supreme body) be a "clone"? How can an engine be "numbers matching" if it isn't even installed in a car? 

[1937hd45]

For the sake of discussion I would like to think there are "Honest Clones" out there and under construction. The 1929 Auburn Cabin Speedster was destroyed in the LA Auto Show tent fire, they only made ONE. The history is well known, seeing this clone is far better that before and after photos of the original. There are more "Original" race car motors than surviving cars.

 

I'd rather listen to an "Honest Clone", and watch it drive by than see the motor on an engine stand in the corner of a shop some where. Problems arise when people try to sell clones as real deal vehicles. 

 

Bob 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[54vicky]

it is simply a vehicle built to resemble a high demand car example an ss or a copo usually of pony car heritage pony car is a loose term. it may well be any desirable car of limited availability

Edited September 16, 2020 by 54vicky
added (see edit history)

[padgett]

It is like there are more GTOs than ever left the factory and many have tripowers. Fortunately PHS can tell exactly how it left the factory. Have nothing against an honest clone as long as no deception is involved.

[Terry Bond]

Some people call them "clones" and some call them "tribute cars."  I think you can define them in just one word.  Fake.

Terry

[1937hd45]

There go 50% of the Stanley Steamers and 1909 Fords. 

[1957Birdman]

And how many AACA Senior Award Winners?

[TTR]

Topic reminds of following:

 “Of the +/-13000 ’32 Ford Roadsters originally manufactured, several hundred thousand still exists today, more being discovered daily and of all those, vast majority probably don’t have a single item dating back to 1932”

or 

“Of the 3 Bugatti Atlantics originally built, at least 11 are known to exist” 

And of course using words like “clone” or “tribute”, etc in marketing doesn’t sound so bad as reality, i.e. FAKE.

Edited September 17, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, 1957Birdman said:

And how many AACA Senior Award Winners?

 

And that is very possible on a 1964-1965 Pontiac GTO. They are LeMans with the GTO option meaning their style # is LeMans. They won't be their own series until 1966.

Olds is a little more complicated because you can order a 442 option on either a Cutlass ( equivalent of LeMans ) or on a F-85 ( equivalent to a base Tempest).

[ted sweet]

AACA doesn't verify VIN and options, etc.

[Pfeil]

That's correct and you don't have to produce a window sticker or a build sheet.

[1937hd45]

Evens things out for the early brass era cars that never had windows. 

[Pfeil]

6 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

Some people call them "clones" and some call them "tribute cars." I think you can define them in just one word. Fake.

 

Was just looking in Hemmings in the Mustang section and found a new one: "Recreation."

[Terry Bond]

A real recreation of a genuine fake original reproduction, no doubt.  

 

 

[1937hd45]

Don't forget to check the original miles. 

[mcdarrunt]

If I have the option to buy a factory or a clone built by SKILLED professionals I'll take the "fake" every time. It will be built by ones that actually care for the car not by union protected, clock watching, daydreaming, grudge against the company, more interested in the cute girls hiney at the next station than in building a good car. With a pro built vehicle there will be exact fitment and gaps where the factory just uses stacks of shims. Until the Japanese FORCED quality onto American built cars they were crap from Crosley to Cadillac. With computers, lasers, coatings, wire feeds, specialty tools, unheard of tire quality, rubber and sealants, etc,etc a quality built clone needs social distancing to avoid contamination if parked beside an "original" junker. For some the great God of Originality exists only in Detroit and the mouth breathing cave men were the ONLY ones that could build crap, oops cars, that are acceptable. I prefer ones built by those who loved the car and had no time limits rather than by chimpanzees on a "you've only got minutes" moving line. How many factory people have laid awake thinking of something that had been done wrong and then corrected it the next day? I guess it comes down to whether you prefer history or quality.

[Restorer32]

Some folks prefer a well crafted lie over the unvarnished truth also.

 

[TAKerry]

I find it interesting that a person will disparge 'clone' autos and possibly their owners for wanting an auto that might otherwise be out of their reach. COPO and Yenko Camaros come to mind, these are both high dollar cars that are probably no longer running the streets. Someone that has a 'clone' can take it out and enjoy the driving experience as opposed to a car sitting in a warehouse. I think the term has come to mostly represent the muscle car era. HOWEVER, I have read numerous articles regarding Duesenburg # such and such that had been 're-bodied' and so forth, sitting on the links at Pebble Beach. Once a car hits a certain age and dollar value does the term 'clone' go out of the window?

[TTR]

4 hours ago, mcdarrunt said:

If I have the option to buy a factory or a clone built by SKILLED professionals I'll take the "fake" every time. It will be built by ones that actually care for the car not by union protected, clock watching, daydreaming, grudge against the company, more interested in the cute girls hiney at the next station than in building a good car. With a pro built vehicle there will be exact fitment and gaps where the factory just uses stacks of shims. Until the Japanese FORCED quality onto American built cars they were crap from Crosley to Cadillac. With computers, lasers, coatings, wire feeds, specialty tools, unheard of tire quality, rubber and sealants, etc,etc a quality built clone needs social distancing to avoid contamination if parked beside an "original" junker. For some the great God of Originality exists only in Detroit and the mouth breathing cave men were the ONLY ones that could build crap, oops cars, that are acceptable. I prefer ones built by those who loved the car and had no time limits rather than by chimpanzees on a "you've only got minutes" moving line. How many factory people have laid awake thinking of something that had been done wrong and then corrected it the next day? I guess it comes down to whether you prefer history or quality.

Fair enough, I guess, but...

 

... what proof do you have “American built cars” (I assume you mean mass produced) were crap compared to Japanese” or other (mass produced) cars around the globe. Most of them utilized technologies available at the time and all improved their build quality over time, some little sooner than others. That’s all.
 

... none of the mass produced make & model couldn’t have become popular, if they had been built by utilizing skills & technologies you refer to, as it would’ve been extremely cost prohibitive. How many early Camaro’s or ’Cuda’s you think could’ve been sold if their production costs had been $100K or even $50K, which in today’s world would be unrealistically low numbers to construct a laser-print, precision (& much better ?) built quality carbon copy, i.e. “clone” of any highly desirable make/model ?
 

... how come, at the end of the day, original (crappy ?) examples are considered far more valuable than any clone/copy/fake/tribute/etc, even if latter are built by the most skilled craftsmen using the most technologically advanced equipment and facilities with no time limits set on them ? Could it be that fickle little difference between real history and fake presentation of it ?

 

I could go on, but as always, have a shop full of cars to attend to.

 

[60FlatTop]

I would have to copy Oscar Wilde and say it was the sincerest form of flattery.

 

And I have to admit that the term "dogma" pops into my head more and more often when I think of the hobby.

Bernie

[padgett]

I like the term "replica". That says exactly what it is.

 

BTW are other ways to tell if a 64-65 GTO is real. Trim tag is one. Question is level of Judging since it was an option

[Billy Kingsley]

Try finding a Chevelle or El Camino that's not been turned into a fake SS. It can be done, but you'll have to dig through a bunch of cars made up to look like something it's not.

[Str8-8-Dave]

17 hours ago, padgett said:

It is like there are more GTOs than ever left the factory and many have tripowers. Fortunately PHS can tell exactly how it left the factory. Have nothing against an honest clone as long as no deception is involved.

There is a cult following for early 60's B body Dodge and Plymouth cars which were benchmark "Race on Sunday-sell on Monday" cars at the drag strips.  Guys like Don Garlits took Max Wedge Dodge and Plymouth cars to the NHRA Winternationals  and per Garlits often drove the cars long distances to the races.  He drove his wife and a trunk full of suitcases from his home in Tampa Florida to the Winternationals in Texas with a 3:23 rear gear set in a 62 Dodge 413 Max Wedge car, dropped the wife and luggage at the motel, drove to the local Dodge dealer and had 4:11 gear pumpkin installed, raced, won, went back to the dealer, had the 3.23 pumpkin reinstalled and drove home!  Now comes guys like Dan Dvorak in Waldo Florida who builds clone Max Wedge cars consisting of restored 62-63 B body cars and max wedge engines he builds from more readily available 440 blocks to which he adds steel crank, good rods and pistons and 426 heads, cross ram manifolds, cams and etc.  He says his goal is to build more Max Wedge cars than Chrysler Corp did.  These cars could be considered clones too, most have original body, original seats and interior, dash and instruments and push button gear selectors talking to Chrysler Torq-Flite trannys.  They look great, are fun to drive and go fast for old iron.   I bought the one you see here from Wayne Smothers in Owasso OK and it had a Dvorak built 426 Max Wedge with correct intake and carbs and upswept iron exhaust manifolds.  You won't find the car listed in Galen Govier's list of original car builds, nor did it come with a broadcast sheet under the rear seat.  It was probably a slant six car originally but it sure was fun.

 

These cars are a world away from the authentic 1931 Buick I'm working on today...

 

Dave

 

 

http://www.smotherssupercars.com/

 

http://www.dvorakmachine.com/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Str8-8-Dave
Revised website link (see edit history)

[TTR]

OTOH, calling it for what it is doesn't have as much marketing or romantic appeal. 

How often you see people presenting or selling "FAKE" something ?

 

Or using a word neglected, instead of hose fashionable (marketing) gimmick phrases like "barn find" ? What's next ? "Backyard/field/forest/swamp finds" ?

 

Or like the word "rotisserie" is often used to imply somehow better or more thorough restoration, when in reality it has only slight practical use or advantage on couple on small portions of the entire sequence of numerous process's ?

In general, it has far more advantages for barbecuing or grilling something than automotive rebuilding/restoration, but it sure looks/sounds impressive, doesn't it ? 

 

 

[John348]

How about misuse of the word "restored" ? 

[TAKerry]

How about the misuse of the word "original"? It might just be me, but I think its misleading when an add states 'all original' only one repaint. etc.

[John_Mereness]

[John_Mereness]

 

[John_Mereness]

 

[TTR]

And then there's that fancy little word "collector", which a "hoarder" often uses to self-define/-describe him-/herself. 

[Guest]

"The shops with many real antiques
Antiques as old as seven weeks"

 

I think Irving nailed it in 1949 (with a little help from the girls).

 

[rocketraider]

If it's described as what it is I can tolerate clone/tribute/fake/whatever.

 

It's when a car is built expressly to deceive in anticipation of making real-deal money that I have a serious problem with it. There are several "builders" in this area who have no qualms about doing that including one of the big players in Nova parts.

 

Running joke for years has been there were more 1967 Z/28 in this town than the factory produced.

[alsancle]

Just now, rocketraider said:

If it's described as what it is I can tolerate clone/tribute/fake/whatever.

 

It's when a car is built expressly to deceive in anticipation of making real-deal money that I have a serious problem with it.

 

That is called forgery.     The value of a musclecar should be heavily correlated to history and documentation.     Anyone buying any kind of Chevy without the build sheet is asking to get screwed.

 

[John348]

Just now, alsancle said:

 

That is called forgery.     The value of a musclecar should be heavily correlated to history and documentation.     Anyone buying any kind of Chevy without the build sheet is asking to get screwed.

 

 If a $20 bill can be counter fitted, how hard could a build sheet be to do

[TTR]

4 hours ago, John348 said:

 ... a $20 bill...

Probably the single most commonly counterfeited denomination and currency around the globe and has been for decades... 

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Years ago I sold a '39 Cadillac Model 75with no engine, transmission, front suspension, or other mechanical parts. The front sheetmetal was stacked inside the car. The buyer perched the crossmember on his trailer hitch to hold the front up. I had only shuffled it around with a flatbed. So when we started moving down the driveway the failed rear axle bearing let the axle start walking out toward the fender. One of the guys who came with the buyer rode in the back of the truck and kicked the axle back in when needed during the trip home.

People are out there targeting buyers like that to trick and cheat? He was thrilled with the car and if I had known a bout the bearing I would have told him.

 

That's the one wheel car sale. And people are putting effort into bamboozling them?

 

Bernie
 

[Graham Man]

Sometimes I would rather have a "copy", so I can drive it, not that I could ever afford this car anyway.

 

 

• A rare 1965 Shelby GT350R Mustang raked in $3.85 million at auction on Friday, becoming the most expensive Mustang on the planet. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-important-mustang-auction-history-for-sale-shelby-gt350r-mecum-2020-3

Edited September 18, 2020 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

 

Looks like  an SSCA race car to me, maybe a TRANS-AM, several clubs Vintage race them. Do they have to be legit race cars with the old log books and proven provenance or grocery getters with fancy back windows and decals? \

Bob

[Ed Luddy]

7 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

Try finding a Chevelle or El Camino that's not been turned into a fake SS. It can be done, but you'll have to dig through a bunch of cars made up to look like something it's not.

Now that's the truest one I've read yet! 

So for an interesting twist Here's a good one on Chevelles. I bought a barn find, really folks in a real barn on a farm in Ontario Canada. It was on a local website, listed as a SS396, not orig. engine, now 350. It sure had all the right stuff. Big Sway bars, 12 bolt posi, factory exhaust hangers for duals, black buckets, console, front disc's, spare rallye, etc. Easy car to add and "clone". So taken with a grain of salt. Did the body tag search, Oshawa built, bunch of the right codes, etc. To avoid the insurance premium here in Canada on "muscle cars" this was ordered by the local Chevrolet performance dealer well known for selling many drag and performance COPO cars. I didn't know any of this at the time, but could tell it was a factory car, NOT a 250 inline, power glide, drum brake original built from a backyard.

 With the GM Vintage Vehicle Service I found out all this stuff. So now it's getting all the SS 396 clone stuff removed and going back to the as ordered car.

 Code#17 Metallic gray, black bucket seat, etc. I still haven't checked the engine as it was built with a 350/300 HP, TH350. Just looking at it I'm sure it's a replacement, NOM. I don't care. 

 So if all goes well it will be a DE-CLONED Non SS 1970 Chevelle.