The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[8E45E]

11 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I was thinking more along the lines of pre 1925 cars with that comment.

I have spent HOURS looking at that all those awesome, high-resolution glass-plate photographs on that Vancouver Archives website.  There are indeed some rare and exclusive cars there, including a Roamer touring, which must have survived.

 

Craig

[1912Staver]

As far as I can tell virtually none of those cars survived.  Unless they have been sealed up in some sort of Aladin's cave the local vintage car scene has relatively few rare and exclusive cars from the 1908 - 1925 era. And quite a few of those that do exist came here from somewhere else.

I agree that there are photo's of many very interesting gars from this area. Packard's, Winton's, Napier ,a number of the more sporting teens British cars . And even the Roamer you mention. But if they do still exist I sure am unaware of them. Nor do they show up in the local club roster.

Similarly , the Horseless Carriage club roster only shows a relative handful of  local , upper middle class and better cars.  

 I think the scrappage from the mid 1920's onward must have been brutal. Particularly the depression and the WW2 era.

 

Greg

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

4 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I was thinking more along the lines of pre 1925 cars with that comment.  As interesting as they seem today, in the mid 1970's things like Tatraplan's and similar European oddballs were way off my radar. Aston Martin DB2 , I would have become really excited . I knew of a person with a Tatra  in the later 1970's

and I really was a bit puzzled at what he saw in it. Another person who lived close by had a Wills Sainte Claire , now that I found interesting !

 

 

 

Greg

Greg I find the Wills St Clair interesting also! Example I saw at the AACA Grand National

 

[1937hd45]

What is the weight of the people riding in that rumble seat? 

[Billy Kingsley]

Just curious since I don't recall it being mentioned. Is there any indication as to why the White had had fallen into disuse? With how it's been playing out it seems surprising that whoever owned it wouldn't have taken the effort to repair whatever went bad all those years ago.

[JV Puleo]

The people who bought expensive cars like the White were every bit as fashion conscious as they are today. I suspect that Ed's original assessment, that it was relegated to someone's summer place in upstate New York is spot on. It rapidly became too old to be seen in the city...driving an older car would imply that the owner was either hopelessly eccentric or in financial difficulty. But, those folks often had no need for the small amount of money an old car might fetch and had places to keep it so they just sat...largely unused for decades.

 

Years ago I heard a story about a Napier, perhaps about 1908, in Argentina. It belonged to a very wealthy family who were sentimentally attached to it and kept clean and polished (or their chauffeur did) until the 1970s when they suffered some reverses and sold it to an American collector. There were ramifications to that I won't go in to but it was felt that the American, by dickering over the price, had humiliated the family and this was not well received by their friends.

 

I knew a fantastic 4-cylinder Locomobile that was ordered in 08 or 09 with the body coming from a NY coach builder. The purchaser died before the body could be attached to the chassis and the two pieces, still new, remained in the carriage house until James Melton bought them in the 1950s.

 

Back in the 50s or the early 60s there was a '21 or '22 RR Silver Ghost that was both new and had never had a body fitted for a similar reason. It was bandied about that the original warranty (something like 5 years or 25,000 miles) was still in effect. These things happened, not often but often enough so that the early collectors like Melton, Winthrop Rockefeller, George Waterman and Austin Clark searched high and low for them. It was a big help that they belonged to the social set the original owners or their children did.

Edited September 6, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[HarryLime]

JV Puleo , a very good and needed explanation to give this project proper perspective . Thank you........

[1912Staver]

And as has been mentioned on here before ,the tire size rationalization of 1918 caused a good number of the larger cars to be almost overnight obsolete.

I am sure some people thought once the war was over  the discontinued sizes would be re -introduced.  And stored some of the low mile, better condition cars  away .

But the tires remained unavailable until the late 1940's / early 1950's when Antique Car  hobbyist's persuaded Firestone to once again produce several of the long un available

sizes.

I am sure that even some very affluent people were shocked that they could no longer buy tires for a very expensive car that might only be 2 or 3 years old.

 

Greg

[95Cardinal]

48 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

And as has been mentioned on here before ,the tire size rationalization of 1918 caused a good number of the larger cars to be almost overnight obsolete.

I am sure some people thought once the war was over  the discontinued sizes would be re -introduced.  And stored some of the low mile, better condition cars  away .

But the tires remained unavailable until the late 1940's / early 1950's when Antique Car  hobbyist's persuaded Firestone to once again produce several of the long un available

sizes.

I am sure that even some very affluent people were shocked that they could no longer buy tires for a very expensive car that might only be 2 or 3 years old.

 

Greg

Greg,

I think you make a great point...and it applies to later cars as well.

My 1923 Cadillac (actually a 24 Model, but that's another story) was originally equipped with 21" wood spoke wheels. When the car was taken out of storage (hiding?) after WWII, 21" diameter tires were not available. The owner switched to 20" wheels in 1945 or 46 because he had no ability to buy the correct tires in Canada at the time.

[edinmass]

Update: This is now a Spaghetti Western story  starring Clint Eastwood:

 

 

it’s either The good, The bad, and the Ugly. Or it’s gonna be Fist Full of Dollars.

 

 

The car is ready to run tomorrow morning. All it needs is gasoline. Everything is ready to go. I filled the cooling system coolant. Ended up having a crack water pump housing that I couldn’t see while I was rebuilding the pump. It looks very, very, very ugly! Sitting here with my Crown Royal and my two dogs feeling sorry for myself. Tomorrow is another day. I’m guessing it’s a sxxt sandwich for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Time will tell. I will start it in the morning. Keep an eye out for the video. 🤮🤢😭😢🥵🤯🤬
 

How bad is it? I wish I had a bad block or a bad crankshaft....easier to fix, and less expensive.

 

 

It probably will involve making an entire new pump.....the whole shebang.........I may have to run a 12 volt electric pump while I make a new correct reproduction. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Bummer. But if anyone can get thru the problem you can. We have faith it will run. 

[1937hd45]

I've often wondered what the cost was on say 1899 -1907 High End cars and their lifetime with the original owner. They had to be outdated in two years or less and stuffed in the back or a carriage house or taken in trade on a newer version. Some had to equal a 2020 Super Car that you park forever in 2022. Bob 

Edited September 5, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

14 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

As far as I can tell virtually none of those cars survived.  Unless they have been sealed up in some sort of Aladin's cave the local vintage car scene has relatively few rare and exclusive cars from the 1908 - 1925 era. And quite a few of those that do exist came here from somewhere else.

I agree that there are photo's of many very interesting gars from this area. Packard's, Winton's, Napier ,a number of the more sporting teens British cars . And even the Roamer you mention. But if they do still exist I sure am unaware of them. Nor do they show up in the local club roster.

Similarly , the Horseless Carriage club roster only shows a relative handful of  local , upper middle class and better cars.  

 I think the scrappage from the mid 1920's onward must have been brutal. Particularly the depression and the WW2 era.

 

Greg

 

 

Greg, have you heard of the collection of 5 cars that came out of the Silver family in 1971? Apparently Wm. Silver of Burnaby, British Columbia was a property developer and when his sons Will and Hugh had passed away, these cars were bequeathed to friends & neighbors:

1. 1913 Peerless 48-Six Torpedo
2. 1915 Pierce-Arrow Roadster w/ cast aluminum top
3. 1917 Pierce-Arrow Touring Car
4. 1924 Stutz Speedway Six
5. 1930 Stutz Blackhawk

 

source: https://www.pressreader.com/canada/vancouver-sun/20121005/282488590952153

Edited September 5, 2020 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[mike brady]

Can the pump housing be stitched ?

[edinmass]

Update:

 

So I wait my ten days to get an appointment to register and title the White. I show up at the office on time, with all the pandemic restrictions........everything goes well until I get to the window. I give the lady my paperwork, which is all correct. She’s types in everything, then looks at the screen. She hits a print button, and goes and gets the manager. She comes over and tells me, the car is currently titled in Minnasoda and they can’t process my transaction. She says I need to figure this out between the seller of the car to me and Minnasoda. I was walking back to my car, turned around, and went back in, which was a hassle because I didn’t have an appointment slip. I get past that, and go back to the window, and wait, and ten minutes later the lady asked what I wanted. I said to her I need paperwork to prove you refused me. She said I don’t have any. I asked her how does she expect me to deal with Minnasoda without any paperwork. She didn’t have an answer. I asked her I the situation was reversed, would she help me without proof. She said no.........than I said to her well what the heck am I supposed to do now? She said she had no idea. I explained that it wasn’t an acceptable answer. I have a good, clear, original title issued by the state of Florida, there are no duplicates issued. My title is 20 years old, and the Minnasoda title is three years old. I said I don’t have a problem, Minnasoda has a problem. I further explained that her database issue is NOT my problem. I also explained about fin numbers, and that 17 digit vin’s didn’t start till 1981. I went on to explain there were THOUSANDS of car manufacturers pre 1941, and they just numbered cars in any way they pleased. There was no rhyme or reason to the numbers, and that it’s possible for fifty cars to have been built with the same number. I have a five digit vin.......so this issue is 100,000 to one. I told here you need to fix this, not me. I also explained how for 17 years I was an elected official, and a denial based on “I don’t know is not fair, or legal”. Turns out the old manager retired due to the pandemic, and she is new, has not had any training. I explain politely to her, I want my paperwork. Just because there is a problem in Minnesota, I don’t have to deal with this. It’s her problem, not mine. We banter back and forth......explaining to her it’s not the same car.......it’s just a car with a identical number.........OK......now we are making progress. It’s not a stolen car, it’s not a cloned car.......it’s 103 years old..........it’s a coincidence of numbers. That seems to get through the public servant brain block........all while this is going on, everyone is smiles and almost laughing. Work around us stoops as others join in and opine. With five people there, with all 20 plus years of experience, we were able to determine one thing.......the lock out screen on their computer can NOT be fixed, overridden, or gotten past at this location! Great, now we are making progress.......your problem can’t be fixed here.........give me the name of the office I need to go to, which, I refuse to wait ten days for an appointment because this is YOUR problem. No one in the building had a clue on what to do next..........more later.........🥵🤢🤮🤬😭👎🤯

[edinmass]

20 minutes ago, mike brady said:

Can the pump housing be stitched ?

 

Ask me after I drive the car today........👍all this effort, this sucker is going to run. I am also going to install a electric 350 Chevy pump on it while we figure this out..........It can kick me down, but I’m jumping up......never say die!
 

The casting is aluminum and very, very thin......don’t think so. It’s going to be a major pain in the axx. Before I make a new casting, I want to run the car and have a Base line to work from. If I have learned anything in this hobby, it’s take your time, think it through fifty different ways, and run it by people who are smarter than I am. 
 

Take a look at the castings......three of them.........it’s not an easy issue!

Edited September 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Ken_P]

Ed, sorry to hear about the recent road blocks. I’m sure you’ll get past them.

 

 I wonder if the crack is why the car was parked, again, all those years ago.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Ken_P (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Patience grasshopper patience. 
Easy for me to say. Just please don’t forget to post the video because there is a whole bunch of us that have no PATIENCE!  Lol

 

[HarryLime]

The title issue sure sounds like a Pennsylvania nightmare ! Only they can do this so well . I reminds me of the POGO comic strip line 

'We have met the enemy and he is us ." Where can I send you funds for more Crown Royal ?

[edinmass]

LOL

 

I need a Crown Royal intravenous transfusion about five liters.

 

 

No start up today.........four hours in the shop this morning, and when I was ready to run, I found a problem with thr starter solenoid. I’m just too burnt out, tired, aggravated, and it’s 93 degrees here at 8am, heading to a heat index of 108 today. And I haven’t had any time off in months. I worked all straight through the pandemic. Not only that , I never took a day off,  I even worked July 4.  The car became no fun this morning. I have more than a dozen great cars that are running fine............... But it’s still too hot to drive. It’s actually too hot to go to the ocean or to use the pool. I think I want to go to the shooting range and shoot off a few hundred rounds. It’s air conditioned, and burning some gunpowder will make me feel better.............

Edited September 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

10 hours ago, jeff_a said:

Greg, have you heard of the collection of 5 cars that came out of the Silver family in 1971? Apparently Wm. Silver of Burnaby, British Columbia was a property developer and when his sons Will and Hugh had passed away, these cars were bequeathed to friends & neighbors:

1. 1913 Peerless 48-Six Torpedo
2. 1915 Pierce-Arrow Roadster w/ cast aluminum top
3. 1917 Pierce-Arrow Touring Car
4. 1924 Stutz Speedway Six
5. 1930 Stutz Blackhawk

 

source: https://www.pressreader.com/canada/vancouver-sun/20121005/282488590952153

 

Yes , I definitely  have heard of them. The Silver  stash is the stuff of legends around here. I have seen the Peerless a few times over the years, quite a car !   The others  I have not seen with the possible exception of the Speedway Six. The last significant long term storage find locally that I am aware of

was a Speedway Six 5 or 6 years ago. They may be the same car.

None of the Pierce Arrow's are in the current local club roster. Someone like Peter Findlay ;who is far more active in the hobby  than I am ,most likely knows the current status of them.

Greg

Edited September 5, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Update:

 

RMV Nightmare.........

 

Part of dealing with government is understanding the problem, who’s job it is to fix it, and ask for printed out paperwork, full employee names, and direct photo numbers and email addresses. Of course, many don’t want to give you their direct phone number.......pass the buck only works when you can’t be reached. Employee number........and name.......”we don’t do that”........Bull Shxx again, it’s pass the buck. When they figure out that your polite, and won’t go away, they will usually break down and help you somewhat because it’s easier than dealing with the manager, and a complaint.  Florida is much better than Massachusetts when it comes to public employees. Unfortunately the people at my local office had no idea what to do next..........isn’t that great doe people making 50 to 125 k per year? They literally had no suggestions on how to proceed.........so I asked a bunch of questions about Florida RMV, Tax Office, DOT, and State Police. The manager smiled at me doing her best to keep up and answer my questions...........and said to me I should make an application for employment at that location.............her exact words were you seem to know more about cars, VIN numbers, and title issues than anyone here. I also asked about the car dealer paperwork desk hotline........she was stunned I knew there was such a thing........but I left understanding how Florida works is a basic way. It was helpful when I went to the state website trying to figure out what to do next. My next move.......sit and think for a while. 
 

Then it hit me, find a DOT office that has a state representative or senator in the same building...........nothing better than calling a congressman to kick but in the state red tape quagmire. I learned who my representatives were, including the Federal Congressman who we had for dinner at the museum for a fundraiser last fall.........BiNGO! I got me a BIG chip in the game. Called the congressman and spoke to an assistant.......got their name and number..........”it’s my atomic trigger” dealing with state employees. Then I called the state DOT in Tallahassee............and said my local congressman’s office recommended I speak to you about this problem, and offered to do a conference call with them.......presto.........I had a state employee who was VERY helpful about resolving my issue......by passing the buck to the correct person...........it was much better than the “I have no idea” crowd. I had to use this ploy three more times, moving up the food chain. Then it happened.....I spoke to someone who listened and understood the issue, and knew who’s job it was to fix it. I almost passed out............ The bad news was I can’t call them directly or email them directly. I can only leave a voicemail and have them contact me. Naturally when I called, no one answered of a Friday afternoon on a long weekend. The good news is the building is less than 2 miles from my home. I can’t walking because of the pandemic. But I figure I’m so close to them they’ll probably want to help me just for a reason to get out of the office But I figure I’m so close to them they’ll probably want to help me just for a reason to get out of the office. I was told they will need to state police to inspect the car. So currently I’m waiting for contact back from them. I’m dealing with the office that handles stolen cars, altered VIN’s, and fake titles. That was all yesterday’s adventures with the state, more to come on a call today.......Saturday.....in a little while.

[Robert G. Smits]

Ed, we all appreciate the magnificent effort you have made over the last few weeks.  It is time to walk away and relax for a week.    Clear your head.  My favorite saying, "Sh--Happens"

[1912Staver]

So much runaround ! It's not surprising some people just give up. So much about the title process seems to be created by Kafka.  And bureaucracies  usually have trouble dealing with anything from before the current system.

Hat's off to you for your steely determination and resourcefulness. 

 

Greg

[padgett]

Understand the issue. Once took a year to clear a Florida title for which I had all of the paperwork then needed a POA from the PO. Fortunately who still lived in Florida. You have a BIG advantage in who you know and where you are.

 

I was just lucky in I kept clicking the Tax Site (that handles titles) and suddenly a block of appointments appeared the next day. Today title appointments are being taken for Sept 29-Oct 2.

 

Looking at the water pump housing above, it appears cast and somewhat porous.. Suspect a lost wax mold could be pulled from it for a replacement sans crack.

 

ps "and burning some gunpowder will make me feel better.." - being deaf from gunfire has its advantages. Prefer Capt. Morgan 100 for anesthetic.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[HarryLime]

"When one door closes another opens " other than that , it's a nice car .

[SC38dls]

You well deserve a day off having fun. What you have accomplished in a short amount of time is amazing. Almost super human. Then on top of that you got to deal with bureaucrats!  When you get frustrated you have said mistakes happen, heed your own advice. Just be sure to point down range and not at your foot!!!! 
Have fun. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[PFindlay]

4 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

Yes , I definitely  have heard of them. The Silver  stash is the stuff of legends around here. I have seen the Peerless a few times over the years, quite a car !   The others  I have not seen with the possible exception of the Speedway Six. The last significant long term storage find locally that I am aware of

was a Speedway Six 5 or 6 years ago. They may be the same car.

None of the Pierce Arrow's are in the current local club roster. Someone like Peter Findlay ;who is far more active in the hobby  than I am ,most likely knows the current status of them.

Greg

 

Here is a video of a film taken the day the Silver Brothers cars were rescued from the home in 1965.  They're still around, as are the cars Phil foster saved in teh 40s and 50s and also many of the cars that buck Rogers salvaged back then.  There are a surprising number cars in B.C. that have been saved from the prewar days

 

I'm going to start another thread on B.C. cars that have been saved, so that this thread can stay focussed on the White.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by PFindlay (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Water pump - I am leaning toward Additive Manufacturing via 3d printing time and it is a fun and interesting projects, so you will be able to find some help matched to not needing it to he made of super high tech space age X material.

 

Sidenote:  Does it fit another White and if you have a problem then plenty (or at least one) of people/person had the same problem before you - aka who has already recast.

Edited September 5, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

No start up today.........four hours in the shop this morning, and when I was ready to run, I found a problem with thr starter solenoid. I’m just too burnt out, tired, aggravated, and it’s 93 degrees here at 8am, heading to a heat index of 108 today. And I haven’t had any time off in months. I worked all straight through the pandemic. Not only that , I never took a day off,  I even worked July 4.  The car became no fun this morning. I have more than a dozen great cars that are running fine............... But it’s still too hot to drive. It’s actually too hot to go to the ocean or to use the pool. I think I want to go to the shooting range and shoot off a few hundred rounds. It’s air conditioned, and burning some gunpowder will make me feel better.............

 

Ed, Sorry to hear about the issue with the pump housing. Sending some rounds down range sounds like good therapy to me! 

Being too hot isn't an issue here! The foliage is starting to change already and we had a light frost the other night in low areas.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

[padgett]

'nother coupla weeks and we start 260 days of glorious weather.

[edinmass]

3 minutes ago, padgett said:

'nother coupla weeks and we start 260 days of glorious weather.

 

Positive attitude is 99 percent of the struggle ..........with everything in life.

[trimacar]

As well as we treat the old cars, it's sometimes surprising how badly they'll treat you....but I know you'll hang in there, Ed, and all the cussing and fussing will disappear the instant you let out the clutch for the first time and drive off!

 

I love working with the Virginia DMV.  When I first moved up here, I received a driver's license...10 years later, I went to renew it, and I was a female in the computer!  They had to do a sex change operation RIGHT THERE at the DMV, only took an hour and three phone calls to the main office in Richmond....

 

So, at least you didn't have to do THAT!

[AHa]

I don't understand why one of the modern epoxies wouldn't provide a fix for the water pump, at least temporarily. You can mix in Aluminum shavings.

[edinmass]

30 minutes ago, AHa said:

I don't understand why one of the modern epoxies wouldn't provide a fix for the water pump, at least temporarily. You can mix in Aluminum shavings.

 

Yes.....that’s a temporary repair......which I was willing to do........but I will need the pump to make patterns......so, if I install an electric Chevy water pump, I can run while making a correct pump. Problem is I mist have a gear to run the car.....as the shaft is pressure fed.......so I can’t run the car without a gear and partial shaft......all a big catch 22.

[AHa]

I know you are a purist and making a temporary repair would be anathema but I would do it. It may be several years before you would need to address it again. The epoxy would dry in a couple of hours.

[edinmass]

I learned a long time ago.......fix it correctly or don’t fix it. I’m ok with the epoxy.......if and only if I am in the process of a correct permanent repair. I wouldn’t fix any customer car with epoxy.........ever. So I wouldn’t use it to fix mine. Just because a repair is expensive, or difficult doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fix it right. It’s not only the cost, or the time......it’s the aggravation of getting it done correctly that is the worst part. Fortunately I have options.......but this isn’t a small problem...........each journey starts with a first step..........and away we go.

Edited September 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

" if I install an electric Chevy water pump, " Ohhhhh Nooooo. Such thoughts are not allowed here. Next you'd be making a carbon fiber replacement. Once you pull a mold from the original, many options appear.

 

PS have used JBWeld to repair a cracked unobtanium valence spoiler before. Some of the early GM plastics were really bad.  Plan is to find an original....someday. But then all of my cars are DDs. Do really need to dispose of a few though, prolly the furrin ones.

 

pps ".and away we go. " - better than "pow-right to the moon".

Edited September 5, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[AHa]

Ed,

I wasn't suggesting a permanent epoxy repair. I was suggesting a temporary repair so you could get the car cranked, running, and any bugs worked out. At that point it is a simple matter to do it right.

[edinmass]

11 minutes ago, AHa said:

Ed,

I wasn't suggesting a permanent epoxy repair. I was suggesting a temporary repair so you could get the car cranked, running, and any bugs worked out. At that point it is a simple matter to do it right.

Understood..........looking at this particular application, at first I thought I could run the electric pump without the gear in the timing cover......but that would require a modification to the oil pump system. Not sure I want to do that. I will have to epoxy it just to make the car go down the road..........it needs a new water pump shaft, and that in itself is probably the most complicated water pump shaft ever designed and used on a car........so, we will proceed with making two or three shafts and gears, but the new ones will be two piece for future serviceability. The shaft is a complicated but straight forward machining operation. The casting is multiple pieces and dealing with shrinkage, bushings, draft, design, cores, core boxes, outgassing.........it just gets more and more complicated. And since there are only three engines in the world that use this setup, there isn’t much chance or the others getting on the band wagon with the fixed costs.

Edited September 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)