edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Early this morning, I received a text from a forum member and twenty five year friend from the CCCA and Pierce Arrow Society. It was a quick note of a obscure car he has known of for years, coming up for sale. I texted him back for more details........although I wasn’t too intrested. I have learned over the years, cars find me when I am not looking, and usually not intrested in them. Suffering car withdrawal from shows and tours, and I haven’t been on a “car adventure road trip” for well over a year for myself, I decided to sniff out the car just a bit. I did ten minutes research, and inquired about the car with him on a follow up phone call. My interest was peaked a bit more..........not too much. A few hours go by, and a few old poorly done photos show up on my phone via text message. A little more research, and I realized this car was really interesting, and a “sleeper” for what era it is. So, I made an offer through the friend for the car sight unseen...............and waited for an answer. It took a few hours, and the call came back. “You just bought yourself a car”.............so, the point of this thread will be the adventure of going to get a car I have never seen, on a platform that I have never seen at any show.............and the is how this “new old car” journey starts. I will “blog” the entire process here just for fun, and to share it with the members. As far as I can determine, there are only three of these chassis/platforms that survive. NO GUESSING or asking what it is.......please don’t ask. I will say, it’s pre World War One, and was 4700-5300 dollars new from the factory. All of this happened today between 8am and 3pm. More to come.......... 19 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) 3:30 PM today, a half hour after I purchased the car........And a friend who runs a non profit of sharing and showing pre war cars to school age children calls to ask for some information on an upcoming event. They need more cars for their program for the school children..............and it hits me. I will give them this car for their program. So, here we go......I just bought a car more than 100 years old, and have given it away, so now all I have to do now is pick it up, make if run for the first time in 70 years from what I can deduce, and then deliver up to New England for the kids program. The motivating factor..........I have owned a bunch of neat, early and exotic multi cylinder stuff........but I have never owned a T Head engined car.......until today. And it’s a rather special T Head...........so now the adventure will continue sometime next week. I will blog the trip with my new trusty side kick who helps me around my shop, taking him on our first over the road adventure. As we plan to also look at a few other cars along the way, I hope it will prove interesting for the friends here to follow............and now, the adventure will begin............I expect to hit the road Wednesday or Thursday next week. Edited August 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 I look forward to the vicarious thrill of the chase, the capture, and bringing home the trophy! (And I promise to not ask what it is.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Fan Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Can’t wait for this story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) My concern is that this side tracks you from all the free work you are supposed to be doing for me. Edited August 1, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history) 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, alsancle said: By concern is that this side tracks you from all the free work you are supposed to be doing for me. I got a new girlfriend!..........and it's NOT yours! 😝 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) Got some history on the car this morning. At least the story is getting better.........not worse. I always say a good cars keep getting better, and I expect it will continue with this car. It has 11k original miles, and was occasionally used just after the war, when it was last run in 1954. It’s a four speed, and very well made. I’m rather certain it’s a custom body, as it’s all aluminum and looks like a barrel side phaeton of later years. Sucide front doors, and although it’s a seven passenger it has exceptionally good lines. Fenders are steel. It’s never been left outside, so it’s rock solid. Original paint is thin and bare in many places, but I plan to just clean it up and preserve it as is. Probably will need a new top, the rest of the interior looks decent and serviceable with some effort and elbow grease. It’s a 138 inch wheel base, and stands a massive seven and a half feet tall. Tires are 37x5. It’s a monster. My suspicion is it’s a custom batch built body........I’m 90 percent certain the company wasn’t building their own aluminum ash framed stuff at the time.......and this car is possibly the last of its kind, as they didn’t survive making cars after the war. The clutch is an oil bath disk......and the engine is a dual valve T head, four valves per cylinder. Please.......no public guessing as to manufacture. If you must know, send your guesses to me by PM. If you get it right, I will tell you, but you must agree not to spoil it for the others. Thanks, Ed. Edited August 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Key here is "quick note of a obscure car he has known of for years," is great when a trusted friend knows the car, makes life much easier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, padgett said: Key here is "quick note of a obscure car he has known of for years," is great when a trusted friend knows the car, makes life much easier. It’s always nice to get a good lead from trusted friends. The lead came from David C or Trimacar............one of my partners in crime. We both suffer from the same affliction.........too many cars and not enough time or money. By the time I have this thing sorted and bulletproof COVID will be over, and as I take it to the non profit for them to use, I will stop by Dave’s house for a day or two and let him thrash it around........it’s the least I can do. Now I need to become an expert on a marque that has virtually nothing written about it. Another fun part of the hobby. The other cars we are going to look at are just as fascinating and rare.......should make a good saga as we drive the 1500 mile round trip to pick it up. I’m going to try and have Dave meet up with us when we get to the northern most location. 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Sounds like a great find (even with good help from a trusted friend) but I wouldn’t tell anyone even in a PM. At least three of you already know. Dave, the seller and you. That makes it almost but not quite impossible to keep it quite until you are ready. Looking forward to “The rest of the story”. dave s 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Looking forward to this story as it unfolds. Keep me in mind if you spot my next splurge. Fun stuff for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) Ed, you had me at "T" head. A dual valve "T" head with a 4 speed ? Can't be many makes that fit that specification. The suspense is killing me. A photo or two at least ? Greg in Canada Edited August 1, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 It’s a fascinating car. I’m good friends with the man who has it, and we’ve done a lot of sharing back and forth on another car he owned. He’s disposing of his car collection for personal reasons. The car that Ed got is a real oddball, I just don’t have time for it, but know it’s going to a good home. The only thing left now is an early twenties TT truck, stake body dump bed, rebuilt engine and rebuilt ruxtell rear end, he’s liquidating well below his investments. The TT is at $3500, located outside of Roanoke, Va. If interested email me David.coco@comcast.net. I can tell you the engine was done by a T expert and cost almost twice what he’s asking for whole thing.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 I’ll give a hint, but it would only help a person who is incredibly knowledgeable about early cars. Its a T-head, four valves per cylinder, as Ed mentions. But, looking at the engine, you’d not know that it was such an engine..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 2 hours ago, SC38DLS said: Sounds like a great find (even with good help from a trusted friend) but I wouldn’t tell anyone even in a PM. At least three of you already know. Dave, the seller and you. That makes it almost but not quite impossible to keep it quite until you are ready. Looking forward to “The rest of the story”. dave s Ed and I did pretty good at the secret part with Vicky. Even did good with the 51 Dodge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) The more you can keep quiet, the more cars that are offered to you. Being discreet is 90 percent of the sale on interesting cars. I love the chase........and making a car into a driver after sitting 70 years. Being added into the history of the cars ownership is also fun.......100 years from now, the owner will search my name and see all the posting here about the car. Lots of fun......even after I’m dead. It’s a great hobby! Edited August 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1935Packard Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) . Edited August 15, 2020 by 1935Packard (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 Leave it, it’s fine. I hijack too many threads, so I never will complain. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) All my cars have names........somehow associated with the history Of the car......usually honoring a past owner or family member. This car shall be know as.........”Big Dave” after my friend David Coco............if it wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t have the car. Weather I curse him or kiss him the next time I see him is yet to be determined. I sincerely hope I kiss him.......he’s not my type, but one must do what one must do. Stay tuned........COVID and family issues on both ends may delay the pick up a few days. Just part of the adventure! So far.....my favorite part is no one has sent a guess as to what the car is..........NOW THAT’S ENTERTAINMENT! Maybe West will do a story on it when I get it back home. Edited August 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Can you at least narrow it down a bit ? American built ? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Yep, American. A company that built some unusual and different types of cars. Guesses PM’d to Ed, as he said, don’t post here... I would like to have bought it, but one can only caretaker so many cars by oneself....Ed has more resources, glad he’s getting it... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 1 hour ago, auburnseeker said: Ed and I did pretty good at the secret part with Vicky. Even did good with the 51 Dodge. Yes you did and you both should be commended for your success. It most get harder the more times you do it. We all just have to be patient. just hurry up dammit! dave s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 If it is a T-head but does not look like a T-head, it sounds like it is wearing "Mixter's Top Hat. Now you have such interest in performance and economy of big T-heads, Ed, you might be interested in the achievements of the 1907 8 litre Tipo Taunus Isotta Fraschini in the Coppa Florio. ( Similar cars were supplied to race at Savannah and elsewhere, and two of those still exist.) Minoia won the Coppa Florio at about 69mph average, using 19.8 gallons of fuel for the 302 mile race. I can give you page numbers in Angelo Tito Anselmi's book on Isotta Fraschini ,one of which shows engine cross-section drawing. It is an approximation of the high efficiency, high performance combustion chamber that Sir Harry Rickardo and his friend and research colleague Aubrey Evans developed and patented for L-head engines 10 years later. Of course, you do not alter an original car now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepher Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Ed, I can't wait for the reveal and the pictures. And we definitely need action shots of David behind the wheel when the time comes. That smile will be plastered on his face for days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) It’s not a Rolls Ghost, or a Pierce 66, but it’s an interesting car that’s not very well known. I haven’t seen one running on it’s own power since the 70’s. Back then I don’t think I would have looked at it that close, but time and experience has taught me about the off brand sleepers that are unusual in design, and still above average performers. The company never made a low end car, and they always had a reputation as one of the best........but they faded away quietly due to the First World War. Edited August 2, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 My wild guess a Lozier. But I don't even know what engine they had, just that they were high end and somewhat local but I believe they aren't that much of an unknown sleeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, trimacar said: The only thing left now is an early twenties TT truck, stake body dump bed, rebuilt engine and rebuilt ruxtell rear end, he’s liquidating well below his investments. The TT is at $3500, located outside of Roanoke, Va. If interested email me David.coco@comcast.net. I can tell you the engine was done by a T expert and cost almost twice what he’s asking for whole thing.... well not too far from me then got family out that way and go out there a few times a year to visit and hang out. Edited August 1, 2020 by BearsFan315 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Not a Lozier, that would be a very high dollar car. For a lot of explicable reasons, but really not worth publicly talking about, this was not a high dollar car. When you see it, when Ed gets it running and cleaned up, you probably will never know selling price but it would fascinate you. Every now and then an unusual situation happens. This man has liquidated an interesting collection by word of mouth in a month. He's motivated, and it's not a sign of the times, but his personal motivation, which produced some outstanding deals. I missed the one car I'd have liked to bought, someone got it before I was made aware, but it was a heck of a buy on a very, very desirable brass car. Ed's car is of great interest, too.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, auburnseeker said: My wild guess a Lozier. But I don't even know what engine they had, just that they were high end and somewhat local but I believe they aren't that much of an unknown sleeper. Dave wouldn’t pass up a Lozier! It’s an unusual car, and I can’t give more details than what I have without giving it away. Remember, pulling a trigger on a car with only a few non distinct photos is ALWAYS a gamble. You have to roll the dice to win. Most of the positive information came AFTER I committed to buy it. The seller is a true gentleman......and a hard core car guy. We related to each other well, and have the same philosophy of car collecting. Since I am just a caretaker, I will improve the car, make it reliable and presentable, and be sure it is shared and enjoyed by as many people as possible. The factory price on this car is 4600.00 in 1917. This was their least expensive model, and the factory stuff was listed to 6100. I have a suspicion the car is not a factory body. I have multiple reasons to believe it, but once I get my hands on it I’ll be able to figure it out. A Ford was 345 dollars for perspective. Edited August 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Heck, Ed, I didn’t want to pass THIS one up! I just can’t bring home even a small project, I’m overloaded as it is.... We could have gone in half’s, I know people have done that but I never have.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 Dave.......for a lot of guys here buying a car is like going in half’s.........they get the car home, the wife asks for a divorce, and poof......they have half the money they they did before they bought the car! 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 That’s true! I mentioned to my wife “hey, found a car I’d like to buy”....... soon after I was calling Ed! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepher Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 23 minutes ago, edinmass said: Dave.......for a lot of guys here buying a car is like going in half’s.........they get the car home, the wife asks for a divorce, and poof......they have half the money they they did before they bought the car! Many, many years ago when a coworker went through a divorce we used to tease him that him and his ex split the house 50/50. She got the inside, he got the outside. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 22 minutes ago, trimacar said: That’s true! I mentioned to my wife “hey, found a car I’d like to buy”....... soon after I was calling Ed! I admit, I’m a marriage counselor..........to keep Dave from being thrown out, I had to buy this car. 😝 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) One more cool note about the car.............a dual rear spare from the factory, and a rather interesting top in both shape and construction. Just found this illustration for the car............this is the actual illustration of the front seat, jump seats, and windshield. Neat bucket seats....and a toolbox in the back of the passenger seat.......wonder if the tools will be there. Hope this doesn’t give the car away......if it does.........no sharing or posting........pm me for verification. Edited August 2, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Is it a copy of a well known European make, made in New York city? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: Is it a copy of a well known European make, made in New York city? I wish! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Locomobile 48 ??? - Price range is about right. Not a lot of stuff in that price bracket left by 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Kingsley Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 I know it's not, but finding an otherwise unknown car gives me just a faint glimmer of hope that an Octoauto may someday be found. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said: Locomobile 48 ??? - Price range is about right. Not a lot of stuff in that price bracket left by 1917. No, not a Loco, and only one other car company made a T Head with dual valves per cylinder............Pierce Arrow, and this one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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