The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[SC38dls]

It’s better than two steps forward and three backwards! 

[edinmass]

While working out the timing mechanism for the magneto, and the engine splash pans having been removed, we started looking at the steering box. First, it’s adjustable.....which is great, as I found the position a bit tight and uncomfortable. So after deciding that we would adjust the position of the wheel, we should pull the cover of the side of the steering box and peek inside to see what we can see. The cover came off for the first time in 103 years.......without much difficulty........and I was glad we decided to peek inside. What a nasty, dirty, dry, and old dried out grease mess. We spooned out everything from soft grease, to hard as a rock grease, and grease that turned into a dry powder like graphite. Tomorrow we will wash it out several times in place, and apply a heat gun to melt out of the residue. Need to fabricate a few parts for the exhaust cut out........99 percent of it is still the hundred year old stuff......only the internal control rod and spring are shot.........considering that it all came apart without heat, and the fit and finish is still very good.......impressive for such a old stock system. Radiator flush and clean is done. Still need to check and see if the Moto Meeter is working..........will test the lights and electrical system tomorrow. Interestingly, the car has a master electrical cut off switch that disconnects everything except the starter and generator. Thus, you can just run on the magneto and nothing else is necessary. Currently every wire in the car is still the factory installed material. I fixed and cleaned up a few wires, and in the future many will require replacement, but with the master switch shutting down everything it won’t pose a problem to replace the wires one by one. The entire electrical system is made to be serviceable......each individual wire and conduit can be removed independently......like on a ship or machine shop. Here is a photo of the steering box cover cleaned up. Notice that EVERY part on the car that is cast has a part number and car model on it......impressive for a machine from 1917.

Edited August 31, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[95Cardinal]

What an amazing machine; thanks for sharing, Ed!

[edinmass]

Another interesting observation about this car.......the engine block and head have no casting plugs or freeze plugs in them anywhere........they were sure of themselves.........all the castings on the car seem to be over the top......strong, thin, and well finished with each carrying the part number. Also, the machine work is definitely more aircraft quality than car quality.........everything appears to be had fitted, and the tolerance for everything seems two to three times what you would find on a Packard or Pierce. Four weeks in and it still continues to impress and surprise me. Still looks like a Friday night or Saturday morning first start up........will try and post the video within an hour of making it. 

[edinmass]

Update:

 

Purchased a hard bound book for White cars from 1917. Here are all of the pages, except the blank ones. 

 

Photos reposted below, in the correct position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Things & Stuff: More from last night.

 

More progress. Ran new wires from the magneto to the plugs through the wire loom. Of course it was more work than we realized. Also soldered all the connections. Set the timing on the mag, did some final linkage adjustments from the steering wheel to the advance mechanism, and it’s working fine now. Flushed the steering box four times to get it clean, then reassembled it and will add lubricant when it arrives on Thursday. Water pump shaft will arrive tomorrow, and I will assemble it, set up the end play, install the packing, and place it in the car along with new radiator hoses, clamps, and a in line filter. We will be running water with cutting oil for now. Plenty of lubrication, and if it spills over or leaks it cleans up with water. Repaired all the loose and disconnected wires on the car.....And hooked up the kill switch to the mag. Need to make a piece of linkage for the carb, but it’s simple and straight forward. Also need to connect up our temporary fuel system. Since we are not running the factory tank for a time, I have a new small fuel cell with a 12v electric pump to get us through the start up and road test time.  More tire work tomorrow.......want to get all six tubes installed by Friday night. Working on the cut out linkage as it was modified sometime in the past but fortunately we can figure out what was there originally. More cleaning of leather, and lubricating oil points on clutch pedal, brake pedal, brake jack shafts, ect, ect, ect. It’s coming along........and although Phil is gone for two weeks I should be able to keep up with progress. Everything on the drivers side of the engine is finished,  and it’s probably only another five or six hours on the passenger side. More later........

Edited September 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here you can see the original battery cables with the original battery bolts! Even have the factory battery hold down brackets. The funny looking thing is the linkage and blade for the windshield wiper......yes it’s the original blade in it! Lots of work to do on this to clean it up. But at least it is savable. Horn and bracket are back together and Phill got thr horn working, now we just need two bolts to install it......not an easy task. You can see the factory part number cast into the bracket. Still need to add engine oil, transmission oil, and rear end oil before we start it up. We will use a jump pack to crank it as we haven’t figured out our battery set up yet. Possibly might take the windshield frame off by Friday also. Thanks for all the PM’s and emails. Also got a call today from a perfect stranger who read the entire thread and made the effort to get my cell number and give me a call to encourage me. Thanks to everyone who has been helping, especially Joe P and Gary A. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Don’t forget you have a small gas tank when you take it for a test ride!  You may be so excited you just keep going. I would hate to try to push that “Great White” to the side of the road or to a gas station!  Lol

[edinmass]

11 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Don’t forget you have a small gas tank when you take it for a test ride!  You may be so excited you just keep going. I would hate to try to push that “Great White” to the side of the road or to a gas station!  Lol

Thought about that.....the fuel cell is 12 gallons............should be good for a few decent drives.

[Guest]

Here you go.  Well I tried.  I rotated them on my desktop and they rotated back when posted here.  First time this has ever happened.

[edinmass]

12 minutes ago, Tinindian said:

Here you go.  Well I tried.  I rotated them on my desktop and they rotated back when posted here.  First time this has ever happened.

 

Your ten years ahead of me when it comes to computers.

[1937hd45]

Sorry I noticed this thread so late, I have a lot of reading to catch up on. Looks like a great find, my guess is there is a whole generation of cars like this that are just looking for the next caretaker, sitting untouched for 60+ years. Bob 

Edited September 2, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[George Cole]

Okay Ed, here you go.  Easier said than done.  Like Tinindian, I downloaded them, re-saved them, and tried to re-post.  They rotated 90 degrees to the right.  So I cropped each page a bit with PhotoShop, just to give it new properties, then re-saved under a new file name.  That seems to have worked.  Enjoy.  George

 

[George Cole]

And here's the second half.  George

[wayne sheldon]

So much easier to look at! Thank you George Cole! 

I am sure a lot of people will appreciate that!

About time I again add "Thank You!" to Ed M for this wonderfully interesting thread! Just reading of his efforts encourages me to get out there and work on my '15 T runabout. The turtle deck is finally shaping up nicely now! (Oh you should have seen it when I bought it late last year, after many hours of shaping it, I had it sitting in a de-rusting molasses bath for most of eight months, the wading pool was too small and I had to rotate it about six times!) I should be able to paint it in a couple more days.

[George Cole]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

So much easier to look at! Thank you George Cole! 

I am sure a lot of people will appreciate that!

About time I again add "Thank You!" to Ed M for this wonderfully interesting thread! Just reading of his efforts encourages me to get out there and work on my '15 T runabout. The turtle deck is finally shaping up nicely now! (Oh you should have seen it when I bought it late last year, after many hours of shaping it, I had it sitting in a de-rusting molasses bath for most of eight months, the wading pool was too small and I had to rotate it about six times!) I should be able to paint it in a couple more days.

Please post some pictures of your de-rusting bath.

[Guest]

George, I thank you as well.  I did not think of running them through photoshop.  Most times just renaming them is sufficient.  Even an old dog can learn something, then all he has to do is remember it.

[SC38dls]

Am I thinking right when I get it in my brain it’s TWO days to a possible start up! Or am I mistaken?  I hope not. 
 

[1937hd45]

Is there enough room between the front seats for easy flight attendant access? 

Bob 

 

 

[trimacar]

"Glue is an important factor, and we seek out only the most thoroughbred of horses to make the glue from...."....well, maybe not....

 

Great progress, Ed.....

 

By the way, guess I don't hear very well, Ed called me the other day and said "Guess I have to kick you [for finding me this car]"...kick me, that bad is it?  He said no, KISS, not kick........I told him I'd pass.......

 

This car couldn't have ended up in the hands of a better person, I'm tickled....

[edinmass]

14 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Is there enough room between the front seats for easy flight attendant access? 

Bob 

 

 

 

 

Bob, thats the short wheelbase car........Mine is 13 inches longer...............funny comment, but true!😜

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

9 hours ago, George Cole said:

Please post some pictures of your de-rusting bath.

 

I would George, however, computers, programmers, and I do not get along very well. Much of my adult working life was spent in cutting edge technologies. My "fingerprints" are all over the foundations of the internet. I was old-school engineer, programmers tend to be gamers, and we didn't get along so well. As a result, I have a very short tolerance level for bad programming. The digital camera we had for over ten years was wonderful. The associated program to download from the camera onto the computer was well written, offered good options, and made sense to use. Then the camera (we actually had two identical ones, both-) died.

So, we had to buy new ones. We got two, a really nice SLR with lots of accessories, and a small pocket type for me to use on endurance runs and other abusive conditions. Then another small one for my wife to keep handy. All three use download programs that make NO sense whatsoever. They offer NO choices, and put the pictures wherever the gamer mentality decides to put it. The download is instantaneous once connected, no setup options, and the pictures wind up in the wildest and dumbest places in the computer one can imagine. It doesn't even allow to not erase the pictures from the camera when downloaded so once lost? Gone! One photo I wanted about a couple years ago couldn't be found right away, was found several months later in the word processing program that I rarely use!

Once a photo is in the pictures programs in my computer, where they BELONG, I have not trouble posting them. Getting them from the camera into where they belong?

 

My apologies.

Too much drift from this fantastic thread!

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Is there enough room between the front seats for easy flight attendant access? 

Bob 

 

 

I apologize, my mild was in the late 1960's. Last flight was Pebble Beach last year. Ed, is there enough room between the front seats for ease of flight attendant access? 

 

Bob 

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

I apologize, my mild was in the late 1960's. Last flight was Pebble Beach last year. Ed, is there enough room between the front seats for ease of flight attendant access? 

 

Bob 

I can walk between the seats and I am 6’1” and 230.......there is room for any flight attendant I have ever seen!

[edinmass]

Update: 

 

More progress last night. Water pump shaft is back, and did a temporary repair the the scored shaft. First repair I didn’t like how it came out, so we removed it and did it again with a 3 M material. The 3 M repair came out nice, and it would probably last for ever, but we still will replace the shaft over the next few months when the part arrives and time  allows. Made new leather drive disks for the shaft from the pump to the generator. I now plan on installing the generator before start up, but not the shaft. Fuel cell arrived as did the electric pump. The pump is rated at two pounds......and the carb is designed for a vacuum tank........looks like the float will be able to hold back the two pounds........time will tell. Have all the new correct period hoses and clamps, and they will install tomorrow night. Interestingly, the biggest job left is now the new tubes for the tires. I can remove the windshield glass frame without having to remove the main windshield vertical supports.....and thus don’t have to deal with putting the top down. I don’t think I can drive the car with the top up without the windshield in place of it will just act like a parachute.......but I do have all the factory side curtains and they are in good shape....so it may be possible to leave the top up and run the side curtains with the glass in place and not damage the top......it’s going to take time to see what works......and get the glass cut. Fortunately I spent some time looking at making the glass patterns......and they are not too complicated.....so we will make templates for the glass company. The “best” glass place around here has done work for me....and I was NOT impressed. I would hat to see the hacks..........today no one wants to offer craftsmanship.....so you end up with a bunch of drunks, druggies, and psychologically retarded people doing manual work without any pride in a job well done. So I will probably take on the headache of installing it once it’s cut.....another new skill......I’ll probably brake three pieces of glass with the learning curve.......but I rather do it myself than have my car screwed up.

We will run and tune the car on VP Fuel Number C-9, and I have been reading up on the White factory barrel vale unit. Also have to set up a pressure pot to prime the engine with oil.........We will crank the car over with the starter while putting 40 psi of 5-40 in it will we get two gallons through the system. We will then run it for fifteen minutes till we get the car up to  temperature..........and will change the oil immediately. We will do there or four oil changes in the first 45 minutes of running in place. We have a high speed fan to supplement the factory system if it decided to run hot.....but my money is on it being fine. Still lots of other details to attend to that I haven’t remembered to jot down yet.......but it’s getting close to running.  First photo is the starter cover that is part of the splash pan system on the car. It even had a door to access the lubrication points on the starter. The second photo is the owners logo on the other rear door....just saw it today for the first time.........hard to believe I missed it.....but it’s faded......., last photo is the 12 volt horn tag.......thanks for looking.    Ed.

Edited September 3, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Here's the page with the engine with most of the distortion removed. It isn't the greatest job. I could do better if I had a lot more resolution to work with.

 

 

Ed...is that a DU4? If so, isn't it a bit small for that engine or does that make any difference? I'm thinking of the Bosch advertisements that designate what mags are appropriate for different displacements. I'd think an engine that size should take a D4. I know it isn't what they originally used but will the mag size have any effect on the way it runs?

[edinmass]

It had an Eismann unit on it new, and it was missing. I’m quite sure the Bosch unit was in the car and running back in the 40’s. I’m told the DU-4 is the best option for the car.....it fits perfect......like it was meant to be there. It’s throwing a hot blue spark almost half an inch.......I’m 100 percent sure it will fire the car with no issues. I did locate and purchased a factory Eismann unit........but it’s my understanding that it’s not as reliable as the Bosch unit. If I show the car, I will put the factory unit in it.......otherwise the Bosch unit will remain. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Joe....here you go......sending it to your email also......

[edinmass]

Better.......close ups.

[1937hd45]

 

 

Is the rear main extremely long compared to other cars in that era? 

[edinmass]

Yes. It’s very long.......they run an oil supply to the extended bearing for a pressure fed flywheel & transmission bearing. Complicated but interesting set up.

[jeff_a]

That owner's logo is a nice touch, Ed. Great to see your progress in going through the White motorcar. They certainly didn't scrimp on quality!

[Lozierman]

Could you show a photo of the leather coupler, (disk drives) you made?  How did you make it?  I need one made for my 1913 Lozier and am looking for ideas.  Thanks.

[edinmass]

It was hard just getting leather during the pandemic, as all the leather shops and saddle shops are closed. I ordered the leather from McMaster Carr........it was way too expensive......but I got it overnight. Tossed out the first 6 that I made, then got the hang of it. It took a LONG time figuring it out. About 5 hours.......I can now make one in less than 20 minutes each. Here they are. They were a light tan color when I cut them, but soaking them overnight in neatsfoot oil darkened them right up. Here you go. If you want, PM me with your phone number and I can talk you through it. Ed

[edinmass]

Update:

 

Have the water pump back together, it's no where near done, but should be fine for 500 miles or so. With the worlds most complicated water pump drive shaft, we will live with what we have till the new ones are made. I spent more time than expected last night making gaskets. Also, when I install the new shaft, I will need to make a new impeller......the original is aluminum, and it  needs replacement. I will make it in bronze. I have everything on hand and restored to make the car run now.......just needs time. We shall see how much I can get done by myself.......my trusty side kick is up north for another week or more. Best guess is a Saturday start up. Here is a photo of the assembeled pump. Remember, it's not restored, just repaired. I will actually dirty it up to match the under hood appearance in a few weeks. A couple more late nights and away we go! 👍

Edited September 3, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[HarryLime]

 

[Robert G. Smits]

On 9/2/2020 at 3:16 PM, trimacar said:

ded up in the hands of a better person, I'm tickled....

You speak for all of us!!!

[edinmass]

Unfortunatly work and life got in the way of working on the White last night........I intend to get the car "ready to run" for tomorrow morning tonight. I have a lot of chasing smalls......fuel line fittings, throttle linkage, ect.........will post later on today.....early evening.....

[8E45E]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:28 AM, 1912Staver said:

I believed in the fantasy that I too would find a dusty gem in the garage of a decaying , stately Shaughnessy home { Vancouver's ritzy area }  but by the mid 1970's I was already two decades too late.

 

It was great to see the early cars at events my father and I would attend. But ownership of a running , early car evades me to this day.  The old guard of early car owners I met in my teens are largely  now gone, but prices for decent ,early cars remains high in my area.

Vancouver always had a higher percentage of obscure survivors, and some dedicated individuals who took the effort to preserve them.    As I recall, there are at least two early 1950's Tatraplan 600's in the area that were sold there new.  As for pre-war classics, one of the local Packard club members owns a 1942 180 that was originally purchased new in Vancouver by the CEO of Roger's Sugar at the time.

 

Craig

[1912Staver]

I was thinking more along the lines of pre 1925 cars with that comment.  As interesting as they seem today, in the mid 1970's things like Tatraplan's and similar European oddballs were way off my radar. Aston Martin DB2 , I would have become really excited . I knew of a person with a Tatra  in the later 1970's

and I really was a bit puzzled at what he saw in it. Another person who lived close by had a Wills Sainte Claire , now that I found interesting !

 

 

 

Greg