The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[John Bloom]

Ed, loving this thread. Took a Harrahs Collection book for my flight to Boston this morning. Thought I would see if he had any gas powered White’s in his collection.  It lists a 1917 72 hp 4 passenger runabout with a rubay body.  Your car?

[edinmass]

No, not my car.......thats a short wheelbase model, with a different body.....that car is 124 inch chassis, mine is 138.

 

In the catalog below, mine on the left, Harrahs is on the right.

 

Wonder where it is......?🤫

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

In the catalog below, mine on the left, Harrahs is on the right.

 

Wonder where it is......?🤫
 

 

that sounds like a challenge. With so many following this thread, we have an army of researchers. We will find it. Wondering what databases are out there from the various liquidating auctions and sales from the Harrah collection.........

[edinmass]

John, if I am not mistaken it’s medium blue and in North or South Carolina. I think it ran the great race about four years ago......maybe.

[edinmass]

Well, another day of work on the car. Water pump is done except the new shaft......which we are working on. The gear is part of the shaft..........a very big bummer. Have several options going, will let you know what we decide next week. Starter is good, we overhauled it with no problems. Generator is apart, cleaned, and going back together....we need new bearings.....I’m installed sealed units for zero future maintenance. Working on building the pumping system for the heated evapo rust which will be up and running Thursday. Cleaned the leather on the car some more today, about half done.....hard, dirty work that leaves you smelling like a new shoes. Lubricated the door hinges and latches.......worked on the jump seats to clean and loosen them up, ........there are literally ten thousand things to do. We have a handle on them. The voltage cutout looks like it came off the Titanic......it’s huge and overbuilt. The worse job so far is cleaning the splash pans........we have them soaking in the heated safety clean machine.........it still sucks trying to clean them. Such is the way of old cars.

Edited August 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

That starter is almost as big as the engine in my 38! 

[edinmass]

48 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

That starter is almost as big as the engine in my 38! 

You could sink it it the middle of the Atlantic and use it for a mooring for a aircraft carrier. It weighed in at 68:pounds. 

[1912Staver]

The gear is part of the shaft ! At least on my Packard pump the gear is a removable part. I am surprised White would have made it all in one piece. Is it possibly shrunk on to the shaft without the normal taper, key and nut ?

 

Greg

Edited August 22, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Here is one of my spare ; junk , Packard shafts. At least 4 different diameters plus 2 threaded areas , both different sizes. As a added bonus it is hollow and bushed to support a rod that is part of the governor. At least the drive gear comes off.

[edinmass]

No such luck on it coming off. It’s all one piece. We looked at several options..........making a new one, making a new shaft and attaching it to the old gear, and grinding the existing shaft, welding/hard chrome it and grind it back to “normal”. My problem is if anyone damages or looses it.....,then I’m sunk.........so, we shall take our time to determine the outcome. I think it’s going to be make a blueprint, and make a new one, while doing a temporary repair to the existing unit. That way we are not pressured into anything that causes a problem. If the new one can be made in two parts, we will do that. With lick, we can get an order together for 200 of them.........that will make the project fixed costs spread over a large number of units. Anyone want to order one?😝

[29hupp]

Is spray welding one of your options to repair the shaft?

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, 29hupp said:

Is spray welding one of your options to repair the shaft?

It is a possibility........I need to TRUST whoever to does the job. So, first is make an accurate blueprint..........then figure out our next step, I have been around this hobby way too long and learned overtime that when you have an irreplaceable part out of your hands you are in big trouble. 99% of the welding shops think they’re smarter than I am and know what I want better than I do. Last time I had something done like that they did not do what I requested and ruined my part. Fortunately I had given them explicit written instructions which the counter signed. They choked very hard writing a check for $12,000 to make me whole. I suspect their insurance company figured it was cheaper than getting sued. To find the part I needed I had to buy a car. I refuse to do that again, and in this case, it is NOT an option.

Edited August 23, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[HarryLime]

That shaft looks quite bad for 11,000 miles . It found you just in time . Nice manicure too .

[SC38dls]

If the gear is a “standard”  (if that car has anything standard ) size, have you checked the availability of just the gear?  Then all you would have to do is make a shaft and a way to connect the two ( simple for a onlooker turkey like me to say isn’t it). 

Edited August 22, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That is all electrolytic corrosion. It has nothing to do with wear, it's just what happens when you have unlike metals in contact with water. As bad as it looks, it took 100 years to get that way. My guess is that it had no effect at all during the car's working life. This is a great example of why you have to examine any water pump no matter how few miles the car has on it...the deterioration will be there if the car had 0 miles on it.

[edinmass]

The car had antifreeze in it.....the shaft was not leaking.......go figure. 
 

The shaft was definitely nickel plated..........not a good choice. But then again, it’s almost 104 years later. I enjoy working on the car, because the last time almost anything was touched, it was in Cleveland Ohio when it was assembled. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Interestingly......almost every bolt and nut on this car has a split pin........cotter pin holding everything together. I love the quality.... it creates lots of  extra work dealing with them all, leaving me bleeding and with smashed fingers. Rule number one when working on the White.....

 

1: Everything is three times heavier than it needs to be.

2: Be careful.......not only are all the parts irreplaceable.......if you drop them and they land on your feet, you will need an ambulance.

3: No matter how cool you think this car is, when your working on it, it keeps getting better.......oddball but absolutely THE BEST. I routinely drive and service the best cars in the world......this car is now added to the list it’s THAT GOOD. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Is your #1 an excuse to not loose that C19 extra lbs you said you are carrying around? 

Edited August 22, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Interestingly, I have been working so much on the car, I haven’t had a chance to get familiar with it.........found this today........never noticed it before, on the drivers side rear door.......just continues to get better and better...........it’s severely faded.....I thing I shall duplicate it with my initial......M. The only cosmetic improvement I intend to make.........

Edited August 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[RossWalkup]

Ed before you start putting new tubes and flaps in those non skid tires give me a call.I also have another idea on the water pump shaft.Phone is 828 524 6702

[George Cole]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

Cadillac of the 1929-1932 era had a pto set up on all the transmissions......so they made great wreckers if you had a fancy rig.

 

That's a new one for me.  What was the pto originally used for?  Air pump?

[1912Staver]

Ed, I am curious about what make your rims are. Like I mentioned on my Model AA tire removal thread I will soon 

attempt to remove the extremely old tire from my 27 "[ 36 x 4 1/2 } Universal style { it can take a clincher or a straight side tire} Kelsey { I think } rim.

I believe it fits on the same fellow band as a Firestone. 

 Hopefully I can learn something from the technique you use on your White rims.

Last time I had to deal with tires this old they broke up into chunks almost like lumps of coal.

I would like to save the tire but I have a feeling it's going to be either the tire or the rim and I need to save the rim at all costs.

 

Greg

.

 

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, George Cole said:

 

That's a new one for me.  What was the pto originally used for?  Air pump?

 

YES......but it easily ran a tow boom........with welded wire wheels, all you did was jam a coil spring or two in the rear leaf springs....presto.....top end tow truck. From my home town......they were still in busineess till five years ago....I used them for truck alignments. 

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Ed, I am curious about what make your rims are. Like I mentioned on my Model AA tire removal thread I will soon 

attempt to remove the extremely old tire from my 27 "[ 36 x 4 1/2 } Universal style { it can take a clincher or a straight side tire} Kelsey { I think } rim.

I believe it fits on the same fellow band as a Firestone. 

 Hopefully I can learn something from the technique you use on your White rims.

Last time I had to deal with tires this old they broke up into chunks almost like lumps of coal.

I would like to save the tire but I have a feeling it's going to be either the tire or the rim and I need to save the rim at all costs.

 

Greg

.

 

 

 

Greg...the formula is easy........Blood, Sweat, and beers! I am getting old, and two tires a day is all I have left in me............this week I will start my White tires.......will post info and tips.......👍

 

As to the make of the rims.......no clue............my background is 1928 to 1936........although I have worked on cars from 1895, 1897, and other assorted early oddities.........

Edited August 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here is a V-16 Cadillac air pump.......you can see the PTO drive.......very rare accessory.....I have seen five of them in fifty years......three on my cars. I use them all the time on tours........fun filling up a Packard tire with your Cadillac compressor........

[Grimy]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

.fun filling up a Packard tire with your Cadillac compressor........

You can do that with a Pierce too, Ed, if you change from modern Pierces.  🙂  My 1922 Paige 6-66 has an air pump too.

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

Eddie, went over 20,000 views today in a little over 3 weeks. Keep it going. Thanks for the saga!!!!

[edinmass]

3 minutes ago, Grimy said:

You can do that with a Pierce too, Ed, if you change from modern Pierces.  🙂  My 1922 Paige 6-66 has an air pump too.

 

 

George......it's not from the lack of trying......the car Greg got was promised to me.......such is life. Leo P owned it for a long time, and he was a good friend.......I would have liked to own that car. The White will do fine for now....Modoc tour next year ....Rodney keeps inviting me.......we can run the Pierce & the White side by side.........see how they compare......👍

[Grimy]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The White will do fine for now....Modoc tour next year ....Rodney keeps inviting me.......we can run the Pierce & the White side by side.........see how they compare......

Looking forward to it.  Make sure your cooling system is in good shape, although not as critical in Sept (last few years) as when the tour used to be in early August.  Cedar Pass (especially the steeper westbound direction) gives dual valve anythings a chance to shine.

[JV Puleo]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

The car had antifreeze in it.....the shaft was not leaking.......go figure. 
 

The shaft was definitely nickel plated..........not a good choice. But then again, it’s almost 104 years later. I enjoy working on the car, because the last time almost anything was touched, it was in Cleveland Ohio when it was assembled. 

 

It isn't quite that odd. Nickel plate was thought of as an "anit-rust" coating. That may have been it's original purpose. The Springfield Armory (you must remember that well!) nickel plated about 100 trapdoor Springfields around 1885 for testing in the field. They did some Colt SA revolvers too. It wasn't as successful as they expected - or hoped. The revolvers went to the Indian police and I think the rifles were simply sold off as surplus. On rare occasions when a nickel plated trapdoor shows up people claim it must have been one of those. They usually aren't, just parade rifles made up by some GAR post. It turns out the serial numbers of all the originally plated rifles were recorded and are in the Armory records in the National Archives in Waltham.

Edited August 22, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

43 minutes ago, 34LaSalleClubSedan said:

Eddie, went over 20,000 views today in a little over 3 weeks. Keep it going. Thanks for the saga!!!!

 

If only a dollar per view went to the restoration cost! 
 

Im glad people are enjoying it. It’s keeping me motivated.......just left the shop again, went through the factory White carburetor. It’s a barrel valve......not sure what Carbking thinks of them..........I expect not too much. We shall see......we will run them both. First I will run the factory unit. It looks brand new.......just like the rest of the car.

[nickelroadster]

Ed,

 

All I got to say today is YAHOO!  Like you say, everyday is a new discovery and things keep getting better and better.

Nickelroadster.

[1912Staver]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Greg...the formula is easy........Blood, Sweat, and beers! I am getting old, and two tires a day is all I have left in me............this week I will start my White tires.......will post info and tips.......👍

 

As to the make of the rims.......no clue............my background is 1928 to 1936........although I have worked on cars from 1895, 1897, and other assorted early oddities.........

 

Thanks , I will watch your progress and hopefully learn a few things. I already knew about the formula, just hope to keep the blood part to a minimum.

You are doing good at 2 a day, one is my limit for these big side ring , lock ring style wheels.

Once you get them apart post some detailed photo's. I have a fair bit of reference material on earlier rims, and I can probably identify them.

If not Layden Butler really knows them well, I haven't seen him stumped yet on early rims.

 P.S. , I have a very good application listing for the later teens, lots of similar low production cars listed . But not your White. All the White trucks are listed right up to 3 ton.

Greg

Edited August 23, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

White cars fell off the cliff in 1914...........not much on them after that.......and they are not consistent as to build/application.  Not a big deal.........fortunately I am familiar with working blind........after countless years........cars are cars........my biggest challenge today is I can’t see sxxt......even with glasses. Made a few good saves with the White already,.......my trusty assistant is good.....but 1950’s truck good, not 103 year old fragile car good....we are working on it........lots of progress so far........I think we are in the one percent category..............this car is gonna run like the wind as soon as I get the magneto and water pump back in my hands. Title arrived today....got to get this thing registered ASAP.........👍

Edited August 23, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Actually I don't know what I was thinking on my last post. Once you remove the tires and tubes I expect the rim I.D. stampings will be as readable as the day they were new.

I sometimes loose sight of the fact some people have very good cars to work on , unlike the rusty junk that usually follows me home.

 

Greg

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, 23hack said:

That shaft looks quite bad for 11,000 miles . It found you just in time . Nice manicure too .

 

For the record.....I have never had a manicure.......ever........but as a mechanic I try to take care of my hands......early on I didn’t.......and am paying the price, fortunately not as bad as most of my friends..........still no feeling in my right and left hand side of the hands.....pounding on hubcaps instead of grabbing a hammer. An old timer pulled me aside and warned me........which I am forever grateful..........while beaten and battered from garage mishaps......I’m doing better than 90 percent of my cohorts..........so far. 

[edinmass]

Question......... How do you know your working on a 103 year old motor car?

 

 

 

Are you bleeding? Yes? Your working. Not bleeding? Shut up and get to work.

 

Flashbacks of being knocked unconscious when hit in the face with an oil pan back in the 80’s was entertaining  conversation while trying to get the pan out of the White. We work much safer, and take NO chances today......not because we are smart, or careful.......it’s just takes us too long to heal now...........

Edited August 23, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George Cole]

5 hours ago, Grimy said:

You can do that with a Pierce too, Ed, if you change from modern Pierces.  🙂  My 1922 Paige 6-66 has an air pump too.

 

As do Cole cars.  But they're direct drive from the transmission, not a pto shaft drive.  Compared to everything else on Ed's 'new' White car, that pto shaft doesn't look over-engineered and sufficiently robust to drive a vintage tow truck mechanical gear drive or hydraulic pump.  But obviously looks can be deceiving as apparently it was.

[edinmass]

George, it was gear reduction..........they didn’t lift up as fast as hydraulic systems today......but it was ten times better than cranking.

[kfle]

7 hours ago, George Cole said:

 

As do Cole cars.  But they're direct drive from the transmission, not a pto shaft drive.  Compared to everything else on Ed's 'new' White car, that pto shaft doesn't look over-engineered and sufficiently robust to drive a vintage tow truck mechanical gear drive or hydraulic pump.  But obviously looks can be deceiving as apparently it was.

My 13 Cole has The tire pump in the engine compartment.  It was a Taylor Noil automatic tire pump.  You engage the big gear and it moves the flapper to create air.  It’s all the way to the right in the pictures.