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The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts


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I have never seen bearings and a chain such as that on another fan.  Kind of a surprise whenever you remove something.  Do you know what the top is made of?  I am sure there is something that you can use to extend the life of the top.  Every day I want to come look at and wrench on this car a little more.  

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I would be interested to see what the torque numbers on this engine would be with the 4 valves per cylinder. The cars cubic inches is a little on the light side for a chassis of that size compared to the other cars in its class. The Winton with that same wheel base and tire size is 525ci, the Packard comes in at 424ci and the Locomobile and Pierce come in around 525ci also
 

With the White having a lot less cubes it would be a neat comparison to it see as well as the other big machines on a dyno.

 
To put in perspective how big this car is for the era you have to park it next to a Model T and take a picture for comparison.
 

Keep up the good work and keep the info and pictures coming.

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3 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Nice to see you making significant progress, we're all vicariously enjoying the journey.  Thanks for letting us in on the procedures and processes. 

 

No one has commented on how low the headlights are mounted as compared to contemporary cars of the WWI era.  Perhaps something to do with their primary business of truck manufacture?

I told Ed the other day that, to me, the headlights are the weak link in appearance.  Looks like the engineers spent all the time making a great car,then on the last day,after lunch, they looked and said oh crap, we need lights....I’m an engineer so I understand the tunnel vision...

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The cover and plug is aluminum...........the engine is covered is a super baked on terrible hard crud......when you work on it, you can see the gray paint beneath it, and it looks great. Problem is, to clean it would take ten days of labor.....hard labor. One step at a time. Oil pan comes down tomorrow night........that should tell the tale............we are going to do a bleed down test, just for laughs.......we know it’s good. Still lots to do, and mot much time.......

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13 minutes ago, trimacar said:


 

Remember, the four with a four valve was more powerful than most sixes.....that’s why Stutz and Mercer kept the four banger. Reports are it’s a torque monster and most guys take off in direct, and only bang overdrive in the open road......that said, there are only two people to talk to with this platform, and one isn’t talking, so I have inquired about the single valve 4-45 engine........which is a much smaller power plant, and single valves. The weight is significant........my goal was a bone stock car that will cruise at 65mph stock.......which is quite an expectation. With the overdrive, It should do it easily. I’m still intrigued by thr oil bath clutch, with its own oil pump for lubrication...........I also need to figure out thr compression release, as zi am told it operates on the intake cam.........we shall  see.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, edinmass said:

old bones..........it's starting to catch up to me

Ed. you don't know what "old Bones "are at your age!!!  Try it at 80.  I'm in the shop 7 days a week now that you can't go anywhere thanks to Covid and my risk factor thanks to  35 pack years.  If you seriously want to lose some weight and maintain your health. strength and flexibility start each day with 30 to 45 minutes of exercise.  I started when I retired from my day job at at 60.  Sorry for the sermon but stay healthy, we may need you!!!

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11 minutes ago, Tph479 said:

Think there is a White in this line up of road locomotives? Who can identity what’s in the row of cars?

1330B93E-DD6A-4A7C-BC7C-C3E94F6CF4D8.png


what was the occasion?  It seems that a lot of rich people showed up. 

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2 hours ago, Bush Mechanic said:

 

 

And that's just the fan shaft! What a fine piece of engineering this White is. I can well understand your enthusiasm for this beast.

 

There is much to be learned from this thread. I include my thanks for taking us all along for the ride. Go, Ed.

 


 

Well, after looking over the owners manual, the fan has a friction clutch between it and the chain, to prevent ripping off you hand......from the looks of how heavy duty it is, I would expect dismemberment if it’s working properly.......or not. This thing just keeps getting more complicated........which I am absolutely fine with.........

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2 hours ago, edinmass said:


 

Well, after looking over the owners manual, the fan has a friction clutch between it and the chain, to prevent ripping off you hand......from the looks of how heavy duty it is, I would expect dismemberment if it’s working properly.......or not. This thing just keeps getting more complicated........which I am absolutely fine with.........

 

Now we don't want to sell the White engineers short, Ed. What are the chances that the fan clutch is temperature controlled? When you have nothing else to do, hit it with the heat gun and test if it gets stiffer to turn.

 

Don't you just love over-engineered machinery?

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Bush....it’s definitely not a temperature regulated clutch......they go on to say you need to block the radiator in winter because the fan works so well.........

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Interesting, I was just talking yesterday to a collector who worked at a Rolls dealership, and thus fell in love with the marque and has several examples.  His comment was that the factory must have hired extra engineers and the directive was "make the simple as complicated as you can".

 

Sounds like White was doing the same.

 

I have a rear brake equalizer on my 1910 Buick, it's a dog bone shaped flat plate, hole in the middle for brake pedal rod, hole on each side of center hole for rear brakes.  This automatically equalizes brake pressure to rear wheels, one part.

 

I worked on a 20's Rolls Royce, it also had a brake equalizer.  It was basically a miniature differential, with gears and spider gears and bearings and so forth, probably 30 finely machined parts, to do the same job as the one plate mentioned above.  I'm an engineer, so understand somewhat the urge to do what you want to do in an elegant manner,  but that was over engineering galore.

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Gear train makes sense to me: crank drives the exhaust gear at 1/2 speed which drives the mag at 2x speed so same as crank and Intake at same  same speed as exhaust but opposite direction. Exhaust is a double gear (6 and 7). Gear drive is much more precise over time than a chain drive.

 

Jackson had a gear drive for a SBC, seems to be still available.

 

 

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1 hour ago, trimacar said:

Interesting, I was just talking yesterday to a collector who worked at a Rolls dealership, and thus fell in love with the marque and has several examples.  His comment was that the factory must have hired extra engineers and the directive was "make the simple as complicated as you can".

It is typical English trained engineering and what I still find many interested in doing should you not scream simplicity and budget - they also like good materials.  

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13 hours ago, edinmass said:

Interesting timing cover removed photo, you can see the chain drive gear for the fan.........

E453CD09-DFF7-44A1-A570-4DA0EF3A2B41.jpeg

 

 

What does the front gear on the crankshaft drive ? # 13, the page is cut off just above the description. Is that the fan drive sprocket ?

 

Greg

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6 hours ago, trimacar said:

Interesting, I was just talking yesterday to a collector who worked at a Rolls dealership, and thus fell in love with the marque and has several examples.  His comment was that the factory must have hired extra engineers and the directive was "make the simple as complicated as you can".

 

Sounds like White was doing the same.

 

I have a rear brake equalizer on my 1910 Buick, it's a dog bone shaped flat plate, hole in the middle for brake pedal rod, hole on each side of center hole for rear brakes.  This automatically equalizes brake pressure to rear wheels, one part.

 

I worked on a 20's Rolls Royce, it also had a brake equalizer.  It was basically a miniature differential, with gears and spider gears and bearings and so forth, probably 30 finely machined parts, to do the same job as the one plate mentioned above.  I'm an engineer, so understand somewhat the urge to do what you want to do in an elegant manner,  but that was over engineering galore.


Interesting, I have a friend with several RR that worked for a RR dealer in his youth. This has to be a rare combination. 

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2 hours ago, gossp said:


Interesting, I have a friend with several RR that worked for a RR dealer in his youth. This has to be a rare combination. 

Could very well be the same fellow, had a nice conversation with him the other day, working on an article for one of his very unusual cars...well, that's an understatement, it's a bizarre car that only someone with no money worries at all could have had built in the early thirties...

 

Very nice guy with some more than nice automobiles, I was humbled, he asked what I had and I went down my little list.  Then, though not in a one-upmanship way as some people do, he talked about some of his cars.  I love my cars, I'm very fortunate to have them, but his list...oh my...great stuff...and we shared some fun stories...

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Lots of progress last night........we now know where we will be with the car In a week or two. 65-68 psi compression on all the holes....Oil pan was reasonably clean. Gas tank is out, and will be in process of boiling it out soon. Flushing the transmission and rear end in the next few days. Still have to flush the block and radiator with evapo rust..........lots of small details........but the car will be roadworthy rather soon, as always, things pop up. Interestingly, the biggest challenge on this car was unexpected, and very complicated.........the water pump.........it was and is a mess. We are working through it. It’s five times more complicated and fragile than one would expect. Under car inspection was all positive.......except all the grease fittings and linkages......it will be a weeks worth of work cleaning, servicing, and inspecting them all. All in, it will be about 250 hours of labor.........and about ten grand out of pocket  to get it going down the road. Crunch the numbers........and a good car without any major issues will cost you about 40k to get the car on the road if you are writing the checks. Stunning  numbers, but reality. And that’s with experienced people working with good supplies and knowledge of early cars..........No learning curve..............my hands were too dirty to take photos........not much to see........found another storage area on the car today........still fun learning about these machines.

47FF135A-AD57-425E-8556-1C3B6998B956.jpeg

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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10 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

It seems really obvious that the engineers paid no attention to the bean counters in accounting! 


I think I am going to run the water pump shaft as is.......it really needs to be replaced, but it would take at least two months to get one spun up...........it’s thr most complicated water pump shaft I have ever seen. Maybe I will hard chrome it in the future to save it. The front springs have 20 leaves, and the rear springs have 18. There is a set of snubbers on the rear. All the engine splash pans are in place. The gas tank had the original cotter pins through the nuts.....so it’s never been off before. The drive shaft has four very well done leather boots covering the u joints.......and they are failing. So that’s another project. We keep adding to the list.....mostly small items, and a few large ones. Looking forward to getting it shorter than three pages. Need to deal with the missing windshield glass soon..............

2F67B7B5-ECC7-4307-B85E-ACC9BA6FF6E1.jpeg

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28 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

No windshield- wear a leather helmet and googles!  They will be era correct. 


Problem with a car like this, is when your driving it, you always have a big smile on your face, so you end up spitting bugs......been there, done that.

 

The horn was disconnected and in the back seat when I picked up the car. Put power to in and nothing......dead as a door nail. At lunch, my trusty assistant took it apart and repaired it........one more thing off the list! Amazing what you can do with a few free minutes.

 

Interestingly, this thread has won the day nine days in a row.............I’m glad people are intrested in following along. Best, Ed.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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13 minutes ago, edinmass said:


Problem with a car like this, is when your driving it, you always have a big smile on your face, so you end up spitting bugs......been there, done that.

 

The horn was disconnected and in the back seat when I picked up the car. Put power to in and nothing......dead as a door nail. At lunch, my trusty assistant took it apart and repaired it........one more thing off the list! Amazing what you can do with a few free minutes.

 

Interestingly, this thread has won the day nine days in a row.............I’m glad people are intrested in following along. Best, Ed.

What no mask?  

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Just got time to catch up on the progress on the White.White did not use packing on many of their water pumps the fit was so close that a little water pump grease was all you needed. The early v-8 cad. used a chain drive fan great set up. I changed the light bulbs in my 24 cad. to LED. Best thing I ever did for safety and older eyes. Also great for the generator now have juice left over and can see where I am going and people can see me.

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On 8/19/2020 at 10:19 PM, Tph479 said:

Think there is a White in this line up of road locomotives? Who can identity what’s in the row of cars?

1330B93E-DD6A-4A7C-BC7C-C3E94F6CF4D8.png

 

Looks like the 8th car from the right might be a White, just because it sits head and shoulders above the rest of the lineup.

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5 hours ago, trimacar said:

Could very well be the same fellow, had a nice conversation with him the other day, working on an article for one of his very unusual cars...well, that's an understatement, it's a bizarre car that only someone with no money worries at all could have had built in the early thirties...

 

Very nice guy with some more than nice automobiles, I was humbled, he asked what I had and I went down my little list.  Then, though not in a one-upmanship way as some people do, he talked about some of his cars.  I love my cars, I'm very fortunate to have them, but his list...oh my...great stuff...and we shared some fun stories...

 

Yours is definitely not a 'little list,' of which I'm sure you're well aware.  :)  Not everyone has the where-with-all to collect RR or Dueseys.  Many people (myself included,) would love to have the collection you have amassed.  

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6 hours ago, edinmass said:

. All in, it will be about 250 hours of labor.........and about ten grand out of pocket  to get it going down the road. Crunch the numbers........and a good car without any major issues will cost you about 40k to get thr car on the road if you are writing the checks. Stunning  numbers, but reality. And that’s with experienced people working with good supplies and knowledge of early cars..........No learning curve..............

 

 

Given that this ia an extremely unusual car sitting for 80 years or so, I'm just surprised it's possible to get it on the road within that time/$$ framework.  

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3 hours ago, George Cole said:

 

Yours is definitely not a 'little list,' of which I'm sure you're well aware.  :)  Not everyone has the where-with-all to collect RR or Dueseys.  Many people (myself included,) would love to have the collection you have amassed.  


George all the big iron I play with is part of a collection I work for. I’m a Pierce and Caddy guy for all my life, mostly from 1929 to 1936. I have been fortunate to have been able to work, restore, and preserve a bunch of great stuff. My taste tends to favor things like this White........interesting and obscure. My favorite part of thr hobby is driving something that no one has ever seen. In fifty years of car shows and tours, I have never seen or heard of a dual valve White. Years ago I would have passed on the White.......It’s long in the tooth when it comes to cosmetics........but today that appeals to me. Having a car that anyone can jump in with their kids or dog, and just drive it around town like an old pick up truck. Not worried about a scratch or ding while having fun is a great way to enjoy the hobby. Show cars end up being ten time the work over time..........and they tend to get used much less.

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On 8/21/2020 at 3:03 AM, 1935Packard said:

 

Given that this ia an extremely unusual car sitting for 80 years or so, I'm just surprised it's possible to get it on the road within that time/$$ framework.  


 

That’s the time and out of pocket cost for supplies......not really a “parts list”. Remember, I said going down the road.......not sorted and finished. I think the 250 hours will get it to the point we can start to enjoy it. Also, this was a 10,000 to 1 on how it was stored and taken care of. Someone put oil in the upper end often enough to keep it free and turning..........I have never seen anything like it. With the strange hardware making the bolts fit nothing else on the planet it also prevented anyone from cannibalizing it for parts and hardware. 

 

I expect to have it running by the end of the month......but that won’t be the 250 hours in it to drive it. It will be about 1/3 of the way there. We are trying to apply a plan to achieve certain goals.......basically it’s spend as little time as possible to see if the engine is going to be a runner. As time goes on, it’s more apparent that things are trending in a good direction.........so what we do, when we do it, and how we do it are also evolving. Knowing the chances of it all working out justifies more time on smaller details now, so we don’t have to go back and do things twice. The only compromise we have made so far is the water pump shaft.........we will draw up a print to have a new one made while we are working on sorting the car. The first time around to get the pump off the car, apart, and service it is probably 30 hours........and that’s NOT fixing it......just servicing it to the point the car will drive. I just don’t want to wait an extra two months while the new shaft is manufactured.......and trust me on this, I know people who can make almost any pump shaft in three days.......that is how complicated this one is. You need special material and tooling to make it. All of this takes time.....
 

 

Just for a reference, if you were to send the water pump to a major shop, the rebuild would run 2500-3500, the car is very complicated......like a Rolls.........nothing is easy on it. It’s fifty years of too much time spent in the garage that makes it progress quickly..........not having to figure things out from scratch, and knowing who to use for outside vendors and help is also a big plus. Not performing cosmetic work speeds up the process two hundred percent. No waiting for chrome, paint to dry, ect............the appeal of a original car.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, edinmass said:

The only compromise we have made so far is the water pump shaft

 

Well, there's always thermosyphon!  I know someone with a big horsepower car, water pump bad, put in a "dummy" water pump housing and ran the car with thermosyphon....amazing how fast hot and cold water run in a loop....

 

Ed, the more you post about the car, the more I realize I made the correct phone call that morning.  It's in the hands of someone who not only appreciates it, but has the knowledge and resources to bring it back to life.  

 

Great thread and posts!

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Had I been a younger man, I'd have the car in my garage!  But, I couldn't have done it justice as Ed will do...

 

W.C. Fields on a younger man, from The Bank Dick :

 

 

Egbert Sousé:
My uncle, a balloon ascensionist, Effingham Hoofnagle, took a chance. He was three miles and a half up in the air. He jumped out of the basket of the balloon and took a chance of landing on a load of hay.

Og Oggilby:
Golly! Did he make it?

Egbert Sousé:
Uh... no. He didn't. Had he been a younger man, he probably would have made it. That's the point. Don't wait too long in life.

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1 hour ago, JMAV8FORD said:

Did the pan come down yesterday?

 

 

WHAT DO YOU THINK?🤔

 

The answer is not quite, for a good reason. We are trying to figure a few things out........since it's an oil bath clutch, and the clutch is pressure fed from the engine, the oil pan is part of the bell housing. The transmission has a separate oil system for the gears.....it's the craziest thing I have ever seen. So, to pull the oil pan, I need to pull the rear engine and transmission mount........not an easy thing to do. The good news is the pan is very clean as was the filter and windage pan.....just the corners has some stuff in them. The oil screen hole is 8 inches in diameter, so you can easily clean it without removing it, if you don't ming getting up to your arm pit in oil and grime.........so we are trying to figure things out. I expect we will clean the pan in place. It will be 95 percent effective.....not 100 percent. Since we plan on running the engine and flushing it several times very quickly, we will try this way first....if there is any reason for concern, we will pull the trans and pan. So it's a take your time and see deal. Last thing I want to do is have this thing all apart. I rather fix everything I can and then test it a bit. I would pull the motor if necessary....no problem. I just want to take my time and figure things out. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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"It's all caviar and champagne cocktails along the James River."    U.S. Grant, 1864.

 

That said........here is more water pump fun...........another easy restoration.........

 

 

 

61965339304__F779D54C-9B0A-4990-B6D1-3511D01A47F0.JPG

61965340968__47EEFB52-89ED-4337-A7FE-B3FAD064677A.JPG

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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  • gwells changed the title to The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

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