The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[Dandy Dave]

On 8/16/2020 at 6:58 PM, edinmass said:

So, I admit to driving a lot of strange stuff......and rarely ever have a problem.....this shifting pattern will be a challenge.........

I had a motor and transmission that I took out of a1952 F-750 Ford Fire Truck years ago and I put it in a 1962 Ford F-250 4WD. The transmission was an overdrive Clark and 5th was up like it is in you photo. Only difference was 1'st (Grandma in trucker talk.) was opposite of reverse and back instead of forward. Drove that truck that way for years. Not that hard to get use to. Dandy Dave! 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

11 hours ago, edinmass said:

Car service update........magneto is out for a mechanical overhaul and check up. I hate cars that don’t run. I could’ve done it myself but if it needed a condenser It would’ve been beyond my abilities. All the magneto  guys are busy, But I sent one a link to this thread and he agreed to turn it around in five days. No cosmetic work just a mechanical overhaul so it fits back in under the hood and it looks appropriate to the rest of the car. We will drop the oil pan in the gas tank Wednesday afternoon. I’ll inspect everything, he sure everything is clean. Make a new gaskets. And reinstall. Will bring me oil pan to a car wash first to get it mostly clean and then will bring it back to the shop to use the safety-clean tank. The gas tank looked really good using the borescope to take a peek inside. It’s not rusty and it’s very good condition so it’s just a matter of cleaning it I don’t think it even needs to be sealed. Vacuum tank will be rebuilt and installed. I expect will be driving it before the end of the month. The only loose ends are new tubes for all the tires, and the water pump. I’m gonna give it the evapo rust treatment. I will end up replacing all the wiring but fortunately the conduit is in very good shape and is easily removed. The way the electrical system is constructed I can actually do one wire at a time without any problems. It was interesting to see original battery bolts attached to the battery cables from 1917. We will begin to clean and treat the leather tomorrow.

Yeah. I hope he listened to the DO NOT RESTORE part. One I sent years ago only because I could not source parts for it came back painted even though I put a note in the box that said not to do that. Be sure you tell him he's going to get a good swift kick right where it counts. Another came back with a clear coat on it. That really sucked. One of the reasons I do my own mag work and have for years. Wish I was closer as I would have come over and checked the mag for you. often all they need is a new condenser and coil and sometimes points. Also charging the magnets is good. If it was gummed up most likely the insulation in the coil was melting from over heating. A bad condenser will overheat and destroy a good coil. Sometimes just a good cleaning and they come back to life also. Not usual, But I did not have to touch the mag in my White Truck and that is DU4 American Bosch. Dandy Dave!  

Edited August 18, 2020 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I'd want to make sure that DU4 is in good shape, I'm sure what happened to me won't happen on the White, but still.  I have a Bosch DU4 on my 1910 Hupmobile, and I can tell you from personal experience that they can lock up and, in my case, strip a camshaft gear.  The camshaft gear is a sandwich, two metal plates with fiber between.  New gears are available.  So far, no big deal, right?  Until you find out you can't change the gear without removing the camshaft, and the camshaft bearings are cast in place, so the bearings have to be burned out and it's a major task to pour new ones.

 

I never thought to look, don't know if it's been mentioned, all White cars from 1915 to 1918 are "Full Classics", so this would even be a car to show or tour with the CCCA.  To me, that used to be a big deal, now, not so much, since they've watered down the approved list so much (although in the case of the White it sure seems justified).

 

Glad this car went to the correct person, not everyone would want to tackle the preservation of this beast, and I know Ed will do it justice....

[edinmass]

Dave......it's probably going to need some love from your skillset...........looks like when the pandemic is over you may have a reason to come visit sunny Florida. 😀

[edinmass]

Getting it running update:

 

 

Well, yesterday I contacted Carbking..........looking for advice on which carburetor to run, the factory made White unit, or the Zenith thats currently on it......(found the factory carb in the storage area of the car.)....probably installed in the early 1950's when they decided to make it run, but never got that far. (I think they hit a magneto issue and gave up.) I figured........hey, no problem, Just ask Jon the Sensei of all things carbureted and get the fast, easy, correct answer and presto..........problem solved. EXCEPT - Carbking tossed me a knuckle ball that is almost impossible to hit out of the park. He unfortunatly gave me a dose of my own medicine that I have given to countless people here.......funny how was seems perfectly rational to tell someone else is a bummer when your on the recieving end! Jon's recommendation? Restore both and run them both, and then choose which one is best! SHXT! He's right........and after thinking it over, the car probably never ran with the Zenith, most likely it was bolted on and a small pony gas tank attached from what it looks like. The vaccuume tank was removed....typical of someone trying to just make the car run 70 years ago. I must admit...I don't like taking my own medicine. So, with about 20 hours of thought, tossing and turning, I have decided to run the origional White produced unit............I will clean up the Zenith and have it ready to go also, but the final answer will be after we have had both of them apart. Hope this is not causing all of you to fall asleep............I figured that with the amount of posting I have done so far, it would make an interesting thread for people who find a car and learn the bumps in the road before you go for a drive..........todays adventure, finding leather 5.5 mm thick to make a new Flexi drive for the mag........I might swap over to rubber reinforced with nylon.........not sure yet, as in southern Florida I don't know all the suppliers like I did back up north. Fix ing the car isn't too bad, finding shops to supply outside service and supplies are often harder than the repair. 

[SC38dls]

The bumps are what make this hobby ( or obsession ) fun. It would be very boring without them.  Have fun, I don't think you realize how much fun it is going along on this adventure of yours! Especially because it's not us spending the dollars, time or effort but we are getting the enjoyment.

dave s 

 

ps some of us are also learning a few things- I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks-  now if I just don't forget them. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[kfle]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

Here are the factory keys, one marked ignition, the other marked tool for the tool & glove boxes. All the lock cylinders, all eight of them work and function fine.......a first on any car I have ever owned. When I brought the keys to my local lock shop, who are fantastic and enjoy working on old cars locks.....the young guy behind the counter asked me what year my Rolls Royce was.....due to the Yale locks. 

 

 

Ed - This is a great find.  With our 20 Cole that I acquired recently I believe we also got the original ignition key (We think).  It is a Yale as well and is attached to a Cole key/watch fob with the owners name inscribed on the back.  The name inscribed on the back of the Fob is the name of the original owner we tracked, but I am not familiar with Yale key history.  Does this key look to be 'original'?  

[kfle]

55 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Getting it running update:

 

 

Well, yesterday I contacted Carbking..........looking for advice on which carburetor to run, the factory made White unit, or the Zenith thats currently on it......(found the factory carb in the storage area of the car.)....probably installed in the early 1950's when they decided to make it run, but never got that far. (I think they hit a magneto issue and gave up.) I figured........hey, no problem, Just ask Jon the Sensei of all things carbureted and get the fast, easy, correct answer and presto..........problem solved. EXCEPT - Carbking tossed me a knuckle ball that is almost impossible to hit out of the park. He unfortunatly gave me a dose of my own medicine that I have given to countless people here.......funny how was seems perfectly rational to tell someone else is a bummer when your on the recieving end! Jon's recommendation? Restore both and run them both, and then choose which one is best! SHXT! He's right........and after thinking it over, the car probably never ran with the Zenith, most likely it was bolted on and a small pony gas tank attached from what it looks like. The vaccuume tank was removed....typical of someone trying to just make the car run 70 years ago. I must admit...I don't like taking my own medicine. So, with about 20 hours of thought, tossing and turning, I have decided to run the origional White produced unit............I will clean up the Zenith and have it ready to go also, but the final answer will be after we have had both of them apart. Hope this is not causing all of you to fall asleep............I figured that with the amount of posting I have done so far, it would make an interesting thread for people who find a car and learn the bumps in the road before you go for a drive..........todays adventure, finding leather 5.5 mm thick to make a new Flexi drive for the mag........I might swap over to rubber reinforced with nylon.........not sure yet, as in southern Florida I don't know all the suppliers like I did back up north. Fix ing the car isn't too bad, finding shops to supply outside service and supplies are often harder than the repair. 

 

This is not causing us to fall asleep at all!  My son and I have been learning a good amount from the thread as we are still 'newer' to this whole thing.  Keep the information coming.

 

Kevin

[SC38dls]

KFLE - there is a magazine out of Atlanta called LOCKSMITH LEDGER, when I did circulation work for them a fellow by the name of Steve Lasky was the publisher/head guy and they were in Illinois.  I know Steve moved with the magazines when they sold to the Atlanta firm but do not know if he is still with them.  They may be able to give you information based on the number that is on the key.  It's a shot in the dark but may help.  If you decide to check them out and Steve is still there you can tell him Dave Sweeney gave you his name.  Steve is a character and a lot of fun to know.  

dave s 

Edited August 18, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[carbking]

I have also been enjoying this thread.

 

Until someone posted a picture of one on these forums, in 60 years of playing with carburetors, I had never seen one produced by White, nor any documentation on one.

 

If one looks at aftermarket documentation of the era, White seemed to have been quite secretive. After Ed started this thread, I was going to post the serial number range (I have a pretty good set of Branham manuals); but imagine my surprise when looking under "White" I found the sentence "White will not release serial number data". (For those unfamiliar with Branham, they sent questionaires to each car/truck company, and published year, model, serial number location, and serial number range for the insurance industry and law enforcement).

 

In the "for what its worth" category, I think Ed is going to find the Zenith design superior to the White design, but only by testing will we ever know. Glad someone with Ed's knowledge and resources will be doing the comparison.

 

Jon

[edinmass]

12 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

KFLE - there is a magazine out of Atlanta called LOCKSMITH LEDGER, when I did circulation work for them a fellow by the name of Steve Laskey was the publisher/head guy and they were in Illinois.  I know Steve moved with the magazines when they sold to the Atlanta firm but do not know if he is still with them.  They may be able to give you information based on the number that is on the key.  It's a shot in the dark but may help.  If you decide to check them out and Steve is still there you can tell him Dave Sweeney gave you his name.  Steve is a character and a lot of fun to know.  

dave s 

 

 

Thanks for the tip.........have made six sets of keys with original Yale blanks, and stamped them to replicate the originals already.......I find when I get a new car we dive in and pound on it....including all the details. We are going to make our own correct style White key chains that would be appropriate to the era...........we are actually working on dozens of small details like this and the leather drive disks.........I will post as much as I can............also looking for 1917 cotter pins.........all the hardware on this car is the ALAM special bolts and threads, and so far we are only missing two trim screws.....which my watch maker will spin up for us..........probably about 75 bucks a screw............hope that passes the sensors! More to report later.......including a HUGE mistake I made............Ed

[HarryLime]

Side bar, your Honor . I have not known of ALAM hardware . Google was NO help either . Can someone explain this one ? Thanks..........

[padgett]

Licensees of the Selden Patent. George patented the automobile.

 

Must admit I thought it was mainly lawyers and CEOs and did not specify hardware. Is this like whitworth ?

 

Part of the reason I do not care for patents longer than 5 years.

Edited August 18, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

37 minutes ago, 23hack said:

Side bar, your Honor . I have not known of ALAM hardware . Google was NO help either . Can someone explain this one ? Thanks..........

 In 1906, the A.L.A.M (Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers) developed what would be the SAE thread standard for threaded fasteners based on the USS standard but with a finer thread pitch

 

[padgett]

So SAE fine thread (e.g. 7/16-20 ) stems from an ALAM standard ? That is interesting.

[John_Mereness]

There is probably nothing wrong with the original carburetor that someone who has touched a RR PI cannot figure out - my guess it was "foreign" to the lawn mower, tractor, or Model A Ford mechanic (no offense - I have touched several  Model A's that would challenge the best rocket scientist via their obscure issues or multitude of issues) who owner asked for help to get the car running for some local parade or ... (aka they could not figure out how to set the float level, the float has cracks that have been repaired and float is now too heavy, the needle/seat is corroded and need lapped in, something is stuck on it, something is mis-threaded, "my farm tractor or X runs great with XX on it so that is what we should do, and/or something else stupid).

[Robert G. Smits]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

uthern Florida I don't know all the suppliers like I did back up north. Fix ing the car isn't too bad, finding shops to supply outside service and supplies are often harder than the repair

This is true regardless or your location.  Many of us would be up $hit creek in many instances if not for forums like this and the knowledgeable members who participate,  "Like edinmass"  BTW how many of you have clicked on the "DONATE" button to contribute to the forum.  This thread alone is worth a $10 donation that most of us can afford.  I've saved thousands not going out to eat or going to my average of 5 tours each summer.

[padgett]

501c3 ?

Edited August 18, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

 

[Walt G]

OK, It took a while ( I have way to much stuff and it is filed well enough but , well ,  I get distracted from  looking for specific things because there is to much other stuff to look at )

ANYWAY - here is my contribution to the discussion - this is from a stiff card cover sales catalog issued by the coach builder Leon Rubay ( last name pronounced Roo Bay , not Ruby like the girls name .)

7 x 9 inch catalog with stiff paper cover. 32 pages, item printed by the Caxton Company in Cleveland, Ohio.  Text inside says that it has a "one-man top" . Ed will have to confirm that - "one man" who perhaps is the size of King Kong???  ( yes I have had experience putting down and up touring car tops for some time). SO the body style is a  BOTHA. 
Ed I will scan the whole catalog and send you a copy  my friend.

Walt

[edinmass]

FANTASTIC!  

WOW!

Holy Sxxt!

[edinmass]

One man top if your Godzilla or King Kong! Maybe the walk through front seat is what makes it a one "superman" top. In a week or two, I will let you know. Need to lube all the joints, and I don't want to stain the top.........the car is in amazing condition but there are twenty thousand details to get this going right and not damage it........if I push too fast, I will make a mistake......and this car is much too good to ruin it beacuse I'm in a hurry.

Edited August 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

May have started something. This is like stone soup.

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, carbking said:

I have also been enjoying this thread.

 

Until someone posted a picture of one on these forums, in 60 years of playing with carburetors, I had never seen one produced by White, nor any documentation on one.

 

If one looks at aftermarket documentation of the era, White seemed to have been quite secretive. After Ed started this thread, I was going to post the serial number range (I have a pretty good set of Branham manuals); but imagine my surprise when looking under "White" I found the sentence "White will not release serial number data". (For those unfamiliar with Branham, they sent questionaires to each car/truck company, and published year, model, serial number location, and serial number range for the insurance industry and law enforcement).

 

In the "for what its worth" category, I think Ed is going to find the Zenith design superior to the White design, but only by testing will we ever know. Glad someone with Ed's knowledge and resources will be doing the comparison.

 

Jon

 

 

 

Makes me feel inadiquate when the worlds leading carburetor authority tells me he has never seen a carb like the one I posted in over 60 years of doing fuel management. Makes me feel good he has faith in me to get them both right........and then test them. To be honest, I rather fly Jon in and have him here along side when I do it...........it would make the job ten thousand times easier...........I'm in the spending money like it's going out of style mode.........and I only need small incdental stuff right now. Six tubes, six flaps, and brass dust shields were just under a grand.......and that doesn't include shipping............how many hours labor to change all six? Yes, I can do them myself, but if you have to write the check, that would be another grand.....and that doesn't include the tires.........and you wonder why money doesn't go far anymore.  Time to get back to chasing the small things............Ed

Edited August 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Ok....this is insane......I'm having too much fun............cool car overload.............look at the car in the right rear of the Astor Hotel, Under the White banner. 😜

Click on the photo for a better perspective.

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

3 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Ok....this is insane......I'm having too much fun............cool car overload.............look at the car in the right rear of the Astor Hotel, Under the White banner. 😜

Click on the photo for a better perspective.

 

Probably "bingo" - I doubt they built more than a couple and any one built was very "special" to the company.  

 

Sidenote: The closed cars and town cars were  perhaps a "bigger deal" and more expensive, but few survived as as doubt they go through a standard sized garage door. 

[edinmass]

4 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Probably "bingo" - I doubt they built more than a couple and any one built was very "special" to the company.  

 

Sidenote: The closed cars and town cars were  perhaps a "bigger deal" and more expensive, but few survived as as doubt they go through a standard sized garage door. 

 

Rubay's standard body color was one of three......Light Gray, Brewster Green, and Special Maroon. Its a safe bet the 7 Passenger car is maroon.......I wonder if it's my car...........It's obviously not light gray, and it's not the Brewster Green. Interesting turn of events, only conjecture.......but a good bet it's my car. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

 

Rubay's standard body color was one of three......Light Gray, Brewster Green, and Special Maroon. Its a safe bet the 7 Passenger car is maroon.......I wonder if it's my car...........It's obviously not light gray, and it's not the Brewster Green. Interesting turn of events, only conjecture.......but a good bet it's my car. 

Also, at the time you my best guess is you buy a car like this as it is standing in front of you at the auto show (or someone you know owns one and they bought it at the auto show, but either way an auto show is involved) = far from the norm in purchases. 

[carbking]

Ed - you are out of luck  my doctor will not let me fly.

 

However, when you get to the Zenith, this may help.

 

This is a copy of the original Zenith calibraton card.

 

Jon.

 

 

Now, a bit of conjecture on my part:

 

A number of carburetor companies produced carburetors specifically for a given make [examples would include the "Oakland" (Schebler), the "Dodge Brothers" (Stewart/Detroit Lubricator), the "Packard Air Valve" (Detroit Lubricator), and the "Cole" (Stromberg)]. In all of these except the Oakland and the Packard, the carburetor company and the customer were mentioned on the carburetor. Thus the  "Cole" had markings such as "Stromberg carburetor manufactured for Cole".

 

I am unaware of ANY AFTERMARKET carburetor to carry markings such as this, only original equipment carburetors.

 

So in the case of the White, this carburetor is clearly aftermarket (released 16 October 1918 for a 1915 car).

 

According to the Zenith records, Zenith DID make a carburetor specifically for White in 1922.

 

There has been some chatter in the thread about the correct bowl cover which specifies White, but my GUESS would be that if one wished to build the Zenith exactly as it was built in 1918, it would have the standard Zenith bowl cover, rather than the one stating manufactured for White.

 

But having the one stating White is eye candy.

 

Jon.

Edited August 18, 2020 by carbking (see edit history)

[Walt G]

The Hotel Astor housed the annual custom body salon in New York before the Hotel Commodore was built where the custom body salon then moved to because the Commodore specifically had their ballroom designed with rear doors to accommodate the entry/exit of displays for the annual salon .

[JV Puleo]

4 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

 In 1906, the A.L.A.M (Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers) developed what would be the SAE thread standard for threaded fasteners based on the USS standard but with a finer thread pitch

 

 

When the Selden patent expired, what had been the technical committee of the ALAM reorganized itself as the Society of Automotive Engineers. The current SAE is the direct descendent of the ALAM. The SAE threads were standardized by them after WWI when the government decided it would not buy any motor vehicles that did not use a standard threading system. This resulted from the logistical problems multiple threads caused during the war.

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[carbking]

3 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

There is probably nothing wrong with the original carburetor that someone who has touched a RR PI cannot figure out - my guess it was "foreign" to the lawn mower, tractor, or Model A Ford mechanic (no offense - I have touched several  Model A's that would challenge the best rocket scientist via their obscure issues or multitude of issues) who owner asked for help to get the car running for some local parade or ... (aka they could not figure out how to set the float level, the float has cracks that have been repaired and float is now too heavy, the needle/seat is corroded and need lapped in, something is stuck on it, something is mis-threaded, "my farm tractor or X runs great with XX on it so that is what we should do, and/or something else stupid).

 

John - I would agree with you to a point.

 

Lots of different ideas were tried in the industry: some never made production for one reason or another, some made production, but probably should not have, and others withstood the test of time.

 

I was not trying to imply that the original would not run (obviously it once did, or the company would have never sold a car). However, of the HUNDREDS of carburetor manufacturers, all of which had a "better mousetrap" (Marvel actually made a carburetor called the mousetrap), how many surviced post WWII? For automobiles and trucks: Ball & Ball (then made by Carter) Carter, Holley, Stromberg, Tillotson (trucks only), and Zenith. Zenith was in my group of the top three carburetor makers during the 'teens.

 

One would think that if the design had merit, then some other company would have used it.

 

Jon.

[carbking]

3 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

 

When the Selden patent expired, what had been the technical committee of the ALAM reorganized itself as the Society of Automotive Engineers. The current SAE is the direct descendent of the ALAM. The SAE threads were standardized by them after WWI when the government decided it would not buy any motor vehicles that did not use a standard threading system. This resulted from the logistical problems multiple threads caused during the war.

 

 

Interesting, but certainly did NOT apply to carburetors, else I wouldn't have had to invest well over $10k in taps and dies! 😠

 

Many were proprietary, and some were metric.

 

As an example, Dodge Brothers (Stewart/Detroit Lubricator) 1914~1928 used 27/64 x 22 thread for the fuel valve seat.

 

Jon. 

[TAKerry]

Jon, for having a carb calibration card for a 1915 White, there is no doubt you are the "Carb King", Im not sure that title fits, maybe Emperor!!!

[carbking]

4 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

Jon, for having a carb calibration card for a 1915 White, there is no doubt you are the "Carb King", Im not sure that title fits, maybe Emperor!!!

 

Thanks! Either title and a quarter, will get you a cup of coffee anywhere coffee is still a quarter a cup!

 

Jon.

[edinmass]

Where I come from Carbking walks on water................and not many do............and the fact he is so generous with helping us here is a fantastic contribution to our hobby...........Thank You Jon!

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, carbking said:

 

John - I would agree with you to a point.

 

Lots of different ideas were tried in the industry: some never made production for one reason or another, some made production, but probably should not have, and others withstood the test of time.

 

I was not trying to imply that the original would not run (obviously it once did, or the company would have never sold a car). However, of the HUNDREDS of carburetor manufacturers, all of which had a "better mousetrap" (Marvel actually made a carburetor called the mousetrap), how many surviced post WWII? For automobiles and trucks: Ball & Ball (then made by Carter) Carter, Holley, Stromberg, Tillotson (trucks only), and Zenith. Zenith was in my group of the top three carburetor makers during the 'teens.

 

One would think that if the design had merit, then some other company would have used it.

 

Jon.

Agreed !!!

 

As a sidnote: The first thing that crossed my mind was that the bowl side of the carb is no different than the RR PI (and their problem is generally wear on the needle/seat, wear on the pins for the weights, wear on the weights, and cracks in the float in which when repaired often add too much weight to the float. 

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, carbking said:

 

Thank you for the Auburn EE-1 Carb Kit - as usually it is Fabulous !!!

[JV Puleo]

That's interesting. I wonder if there was any standard for carburetors on vehicles sold to the government? I expect not... I cut a lot of odd threads. In fact, I learned to single-point threads because what was available over the counter was often not what I needed so I can empathize with your problem.

[carbking]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Where I come from Carbking walks on water................and not many do............and the fact he is so generous with helping us here is a fantastic contribution to our hobby...........Thank You Jon!

 

OK - thanks, it is easy when the ambient is below 31 degrees F.

 

Now lets get back to White automobiles.

 

Jon