trimacar Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Ed, that water pump is the perfect example of the phrase "Mother Nature wants it back" when talking corrosion issues.....and though aluminum was being used at that time, some of the alloys weren't the best... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, edinmass said: "It's all caviar and champagne cocktails along the James River." U.S. Grant, 1864. That said........here is more water pump fun...........another easy restoration......... Now THAT is a challenge. I've no idea how I'd go about it but I might well make a new casting and machine it. The aluminum they used was not suitable (although they didn't know that and I'm sure they weren't thinking "this will rot out in 100 years". I'm a little surprised they didn't use bronze but the entire automobile world was in love with aluminum in 1917. I wonder what the wall thickness was? It might be possible to cut it off, counterbore the hole and make an insert with a slightly reduced threaded diameter to screw in. It would be a VERY touchy job... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, edinmass said: "It's all caviar and champagne cocktails along the James River." U.S. Grant, 1864. That said........here is more water pump fun...........another easy restoration......... I would try a really good welder (willing to spend some time and who thinks the project is interesting and worthy of their talents) - and if more problems where those came from perhaps recasting, but thinking a welder can resurrect and get you another 20 plus years out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Sidenote: If the water pump housing fits other models then you will not be the first one on the scene and probably anyone else's is worse that what you have - so who has the box of new castings sitting on the shelf in their garage who reinvented the wheel prior to you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Yikes ! That's one scary pump housing . Your oil pan set up sounds almost exactly the same as that on my Packard truck , also 1918. The Packard uses a dry multi disk clutch; but just as you describe' the big oil pan casting also encloses the bottom of the flywheel. The clutch housing ; it looks just like a transmission but it is actually only the clutch mechanism , is attached with studs projecting backwards from both the crankcase and the oil pan. { trans is a separate unit with a short drive shaft } I guess it's not that surprising that two major rivals in the truck market would have similar engineering and construction. The Packard's water pump is quite similar to yours as well except the main casting is iron and the water connections are separate bolt on pieces. Greg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 Greg, upon closer examination we can get the pan down without pulling the trans.......we couldn't see everything because of the engine splash pans. We are going to drop it tonight. Even though cleaning it in place was going to be OK, I don't take short cuts just because of a few hours extra work. I was worried about taking it down too far, now whit the issue solved, we will have it out by tonight. 👍 Water pump will be fine. For some reason it will weld easily. It should be finished by this afternoon. Fortunately I have good relationships with a few people down here..........and they all like the cars and visiting from time to time. Which I am happy to extend. 👍 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) Some wheel detail......The same large stripe with the two red lines was on the entire body, hood, and radiator.......... Edited August 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gossp Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 What size wheel is it running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 37X5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) Re the water pump...I wonder if you could build up the exterior of that tube with Devcon aluminum epoxy (the Industrial stuff) ? It's expensive but nowhere near as expensive as making it over. I don't think I'd consider it for a permanent repair but short term it may be ok. Edited August 21, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) Got the pan down..........everything looks good. It was basically clean. Took about three hours. The crank, the mains, and thr rods are HUGE.........thr front timing gears are 2.75 inches thick.....never seen anything like it. Gas tank is out......was are as far apart as we will need to go........now we are on the path to reassembly. Water pump body is working out fine.........some more grinding but it will last another 100 years. I will coat the inside and the outside where the hose goes to prevent any more deterioration. The shaft is a mess.....working on possibly making a new one now..........will know more in a few days. The gas guage is in the tank and filled with tar or something similar...........more work............I ordered up a pump and heater like Matt did to flush the block And the radiator with evapo rust..........that will start next week. Making new hardy disks for the generator p, water pump, and magneto. The pump was missing two grease cups that were replaced with alimite grease fittings.......lots of other things happening. Ordered new water pump packing, gasket material. Looking at thr engineering on the pump.....End play on the gear driven by the timing gears is good. End play on the pump.is off, but won’t be an issue when we reassembled it. The oil guage float is made of brass.....and the best Set up I have ever seen, makes a Cadillac set up look embarrassing. Once all the mechanical work is done, I will need to make about twenty leather dust shields that cover all the u joints, slip joints, bell cranks, ect. I will need to become friends with a harness maker or saddle maker. The large end rod journals are insanely large,........as are the mains. Looks like the rods weigh ten pounds each. Edited August 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 So...does it have plain bearings or ball bearings? I really like it. I is the sort of over the top engineering that I thoroughly appreciate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I keep thinking being White if its the odd case of their trucks influencing their cars - at least at this point in the companies life. Amazing machine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 The size of everything is amazing! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) Regular babbitt bearings........very large.........about 200 percent oversize. Everything is built like it was for an ocean liner. The best news of the day......it’s going to run........no doubt about it now. Thr cylinder bores look brand new......with only 11k on the clock, you would think it had 500 miles on it from new. No other issues so far. Lots of cleaning and lubrication to attend to............overall a great car, in great condition, and Im looking forward to taking it for a spin. Edited August 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gossp Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 43 minutes ago, edinmass said: 37X5 that’s gonna cost you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tph479 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Is it possible to turn the water pump shaft down on a lathe and put a sleeve on it? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, Tph479 said: Is it possible to turn the water pump shaft down on a lathe and put a sleeve on it? Just a thought. No......looked at it already....too complicated and won’t reassemble. Thing like this are common on high end cars...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 57 minutes ago, SC38DLS said: The size of everything is amazing! Tell all the ladies! It’s a great reputation to have! 😎 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Braggart! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 7 hours ago, alsancle said: A little bondo and scotch tape and you can advertise the car with a "rebuilt water pump" when you sell it Just like your car! Oops......I meant to say just like ALL your cars..........🤔 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 minute ago, SC38DLS said: Braggart! If it’s true, you can’t be a braggart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 No one needs to have you prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 The bottom is so clean it’s ridiculous. The 11 thousand miles must have been on good roads not dirt or gravel 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Dip that drive shaft universal cover in leather conditioner. The bottom of that car is awfully clean. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Why is there a 4 inch pipe going in to the muffler and a 2 inch pipe coming out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, alsancle said: Why is there a 4 inch pipe going in to the muffler and a 2 inch pipe coming out? Common back in the day, the exhaust cut out is about 80 percent of the size of the main pipe. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. Ballard 35R Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Typically cars of this era and older used these sizes which of course resulted in back pressure which in turn prompted the use of cutouts. Can't remember if Ed said there was a cutout but this engine should really bark with one. I was typing this just as Ed posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossWalkup Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Ed for what it is worth many years ago I had a 1917 Velie. The water pump shaft was no where near as complicated as the White but in much worse shape.Took it to the local machine shop and they turned down the bad spots and welded up the under cut to oversize then machined it back down and polished it. I drove that car many miles and never had a problem with it. Wound up selling it back to a Velie family member. The bottom end of your engine looks almost the same as the engine in my Yellowstone bus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 2 hours ago, edinmass said: That shot could easily pass as a White 1 ton truck if you didn't know it was a car. Nothing underbuilt at White in those days. It's no wonder many cars in this class ended their days as tow trucks. Greg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Does that thing have 4 bolt caps on the big end of the rods? That is a lot of rod bearing surface. The water pump looks like the aluminum one off of my Marmon. Too many disimilr metals and the aluminum acts like a sacrificial anode on a boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 Yup, four bolt caps.........without my glasses on at first glance I thought I was looking at a main bearing cap! This thing is way overbuilt......just like a Rolls.....except it doesn’t have the extra ten thousand fasteners. I’m stunned how it’s all working out. Every road block we hit is solved rather fast.......and things that normally make you want to beat the step children are working out fine. We will do a video for first start and first drive.......I have a chance to get a new water pump shaft made up rather soon, so it might delay the start up, but it will be worth the wait to only do this pump one time..........more details later........Ed. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 9 hours ago, 1912Staver said: That shot could easily pass as a White 1 ton truck if you didn't know it was a car. Nothing underbuilt at White in those days. It's no wonder many cars in this class ended their days as tow trucks. Greg Same thing with the Cole open touring cars of that vintage. Very heavy duty frame and suspension, coupled with a 346 cu in V8. Once they became long in the tooth, people would cut the bodies off behind the front seat and mount a wrecker body. That saved at least a few of them from the WWII scrap metal drives. There's several that exist today which are missing their rear body sections, or had to have them recreated for restoration. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 Cadillac of the 1929-1932 era had a pto set up on all the transmissions......so they made great wreckers if you had a fancy rig. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfle Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 1 hour ago, George Cole said: Same thing with the Cole open touring cars of that vintage. Very heavy duty frame and suspension, coupled with a 346 cu in V8. Once they became long in the tooth, people would cut the bodies off behind the front seat and mount a wrecker body. That saved at least a few of them from the WWII scrap metal drives. There's several that exist today which are missing their rear body sections, or had to have them recreated for restoration. Here you go George. Distinctive front end of a Cole, though wrong headlights. They were way overbuilt with the frame and components underneath. Getting turned into trucks definitely impacted the survivor rates of Coles. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 Common fate of well built cars with excess horsepower. A low milage car comes into the bone yard........and then its either a pick up truck, tow truck, or in the case of a Stutz I was involved in a hay rake and doodle bug. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now