The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[1935Packard]

Such a fascinating adventure, Ed, thanks again for detailing it.  (But be safe, too!)

[wayne sheldon]

Ed, I truly enjoy your ruminations on the White. Your prose is nearly poetic, and quite thought provoking. As I savor the words, and thoughts, it is almost like I was there, enjoying the journey alongside you and Phil. Wish it were so.

Model T speedsters seem so crude in comparison, but I have had a lot of fun with them over the years. I had one, resurrected from a pile of original era T race car pieces. The chassis was shortened, the front end moved forward about six inches for better balance, and steel disc wheels. The engine was a model T flat head. The block, original era-built, heavily modified with valves that touched the cylinder walls. The ports ground out so large that one of the water jackets was broken into. I managed to repair (?) it. With a '20s Chevrolet updraft Carter carburetor, it could burn rubber. It was the one and only time in my life that I ever "spun a donut" with any car on dry pavement!

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Such a fascinating adventure, Ed, thanks again for detailing it.  (But be safe, too!)

 

Always safe..........I would never push any car to the point where it’s actions become unpredictable. Actually, the best way to drive a car is to know it’s limits and how it handles under ALL conditions. Most pre war cars don’t really respond well to hot dogging them. Mostly from old worn components and springs that have “sprung”. It’s why there are so few really well done cars......lack of knowledge and experience of how a truly correct car should drive and feel. Well over 95 percent of the cars being driven have issues.......many of them major issues. Usually it’s from the owners lack of experience in understanding how good these cars were when new. Some cars should never be pushed........the early stuff where you have all you can manage to keep them going straight down the road.........and also, metal fatigue and age need to always be considered. I have seen too many people run wheels that should be in the dumpster, and instead the end up on the front end of their car. Right now the White is reasonably well mannered, and I thought all the controls were street ready....a few laps around the parking lot proved otherwise.........the clutch linkage was all lubricated and inspected......but it still need attention before the car runs on the open road. Weather today doesn’t look promising.........time will tell.

Edited September 13, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

More:

 

 

A little bet more info on the water pump. I spent an easy ten hours going over the pump. Just inspecting it. It’s the most complicated water pump I have ever seen on a car. When performing the initial repair on the casting, I went over it at the bench for well over an hour looking for problems...........I knew it was going to be a challenge. I then took it to a friends shop, and placed it in a vapor hone machine........basically a glass bead cabinet with water added. They give a fantastic finish and won’t damage machined surfaces as long as your careful. I ran the pump through the hone machine five or six times......being CERTAIN  not to miss anything. Yet this new problem developed after doing my best work on it, looking for any possible issues. It just goes to prove that no matter how much you try......cars like this just never stop throwing rocks at you. All in, the pump probably has 25 hours of my time in it......and Joe will probably be doing that much already also. When I bought the car things like the radiator and internal engine  problems were my concern. I ended up with totally off the wall problems that could have never been predicted. Now after just a short time running......new things are emerging.....I know the car will eventually stop punching me in the face.........I sure hope it gives up the fight soon and just goes along for the ride. Time will tell.

Edited September 13, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Apollo Creed told Rocky no rematch. Maybe  the “Great White” will be the same way for you!  Plus you have Phil in your corner. 
Round 9 !

it’s worth the fight and must be a ball in person because it’s certainly is vicariously ! 
 

Edited September 13, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

After years of doing this sort of thing the only persistent nagging worry I have is that it is always something I haven't thought of or prepared for that goes wrong...but there really are no mechanical problems that can't be solved. You've done a great job Ed and, better still, you have documented and demonstrated the proper way to go about bringing back a long unused machine. It will be interesting to observe how this car behaves in use once all the individual components have been addressed, largely because it is so untouched. I wholeheartedly agree with the observation that 99% of the people driving old cars have no idea how they were supposed to behave when new and, more often than not, grossly underestimate their potential.

[1912Staver]

The road manners you describe make me wonder if they had anything to do with the low sales of the late White cars ?  Would you rate a similar year Pierce or other same price range car as being more novice friendly ?

White had to have a large amount of capital invested in the production of these cars, but it almost had to have been a money loosing proposition.  It's a good thing their truck were very popular.

 

Greg

[edinmass]

Greg.....need more time and miles to make a fair comment. Drove it some more today, and it seems to get better and easier to deal with over time and distance. Feel much better about it today than yesterday. Just need more windshield time with it.....and a windshield!

[Robert G. Smits]

On 9/11/2020 at 5:17 PM, edinmass said:

.it was LONG overdue!

Enjoy a night out with your "Love"  I appreciate the feeling.  Pam and I went out to dinner Friday night.  First time in a restaurant since March 7.  We can only  pray for a normal "car hobby" season in 2021

[edinmass]

Update:

 

Didn’t  do much with the car today. Weather, visitors, cleaning up the shop, and other domestic issues got in the  way. I did start it, drove it around the parking lot for a bit, and ran it at 1300 rpm for about half an hour. Doesn’t overheat. It’s holding good oil pressure. Definitely need more time spent on timing and carburetor adjustments. There are no water leaks.......the temporary repair on the shaft is holding. The engine is surprisingly dry.......I have one small oil leak on the oil filter screen cover.......and we reused the gasket we found there when we dropped the pan. We will do several oil changes soon, and make a few new gaskets to have on hand. The exhaust system that I was so enamored with is now causing headaches, and it’s going to be a challenge to fix it......what’s new? Progress will now slow as lots of other things are happening. Title problems are ongoing. I will probably start updating the thread two or three times a week as things are worth posting. The big push to get to where we are was fantastic fun. This thread helped me to keep on it to our current amount of progress. I want the pace to slow......so both Phil and I can enjoy the process more. We have a proven good car, with a good power plant, and semi sorted chassis. We will now take smaller steps in the cars progress. Rest assured, we will continue......and at a faster pace than most........ultimately getting to the finish line as reasonably soon as possible. I think I will have a few videos for you all tomorrow. I plan on showing the car at a few small, local events as soon as I can get a plate on it. While out in the parking lot today, it drew a lot of attention..........I never realized a long in the tooth machine would draw people and comments like it has. The photo below is the tube from the spare tire marked “very old tube” and that was written in pencil back in 1952.......I can only imagine it’s true age......best guess, early 1930’s but would love to hear other opinions. Best, Ed.

[wayne sheldon]

I love inner tubes like that. But they are nearly impossible to save. The best way I have found to preserve them is locked away inside a tire mounted on a rim, and maybe 10 psi maximum. No light. No UV. No ozone. No exchanging of oxygen (once used up it stops causing deterioration). Keep in a cool dark place, and a tube like that could last for centuries. Otherwise, encased in a near vacuum, and total darkness.

I once pulled a beautiful red tube out of a fifty year old tire. I had run into this before. But had family goings-on, and didn't get back to it for a whole week. The tube once out of its protective tire was splitting and cracked in less than a week. And it was holding air just fine up until then.

 

That is a beautiful tube. If you want to save it, and cannot find a better solution like right now? Get it back inside a tire quick!

[nickelroadster]

I do not remember anyone else that posted this much information about  a car.  The way you have done by including a huge number of others has got to be a record for the site.  I don't think that anyone will be able to top this, but of course we are all willing to let someone try!

[nzcarnerd]

Having read most of this thread I was intrigued when I was looking for something else to find this photo which according to my note with it was posted on this forum - somewhere - in September 2009.

 

Apparently the Liberty Bell on tour - 

[edinmass]

7 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

Having read most of this thread I was intrigued when I was looking for something else to find this photo which according to my note with it was posted on this forum - somewhere - in September 2009.

 

Apparently the Liberty Bell on tour - 

 

 

Neat photo........1916 White 4-45 on a 124 inch chassis. 👍

[alsancle]

Here is Ed's video of the white running for the first time in 80 years.   Cecil B. Demille is rolling over in his grave,  but the car is cool.

 

 

[Guest]

Damn that sounds beautiful. no one would ever guess it had been asleep for + or -80 years.  Congratulations edinmass and all your cohorts for doing this to/for the car and sharing all the trials and tribulations.  There is a special place in Heaven for people like you.

[edinmass]

Sorry it took so long......I tried to post to YouTube......had to drop box it to AJ, which isn't easy for me either. That was the third start, and the fist time it was ever moved under it's own power.

[SC38dls]

13 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Here is Ed's video of the white running for the first time in 80 years.   Cecil B. Demille is rolling over in his grave,  but the car is cool.

 

 

And the OSCAR goes to Mr Ed!  
That is amazing!  Congratulations. 
 

How are you going to mount it on your fireplace mantel? 
 

ps Best supporting mechanic goes to Phil!  

Edited September 14, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[gossp]

Sounds great!

[zepher]

Sounds good.

 

Now let's see some action shots!

[wayne sheldon]

Wow.

[Oldsmobile 83]

Great job Ed.  Sounds amazing for a car that hadn't been running for 80 years.  

Tim

[trimacar]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Neat photo........1916 White 4-45 on a 124 inch chassis. 👍

Car sounds great!  
 

Ed’s comment reminds me that he’s gone from “I don’t think I know anyone interested in a White” to a White expert in a couple of months!!

 

Great job, so happy it’s in your hands.....

[edinmass]

It sounded better before the packing let go on the manifold.......it was quiet and tight.....and then the 103 year old asbestos gave up the fight. More work......anyone want to unscrew a three inch nut that has been on the manifold since 1917? More joy.........spent seven hours fixing the starter solenoid. Linkage, connection, battery cables, ....it just doesn’t end. Will have new cables made this week. They are complicated and unusual.......take a look ......cast aluminum box with cast in wire conduit holes......insanity? The entire car is built like this. Look at the original battery cables also. The solenoid is mechanical over electrical using a linkage from the floorboard. It’s got more shafts and linkage than you can imagine, and all of it is on a tapered keyway with a castle nut and split pin. Working on getting the cut out functioning and finished. We also begin to adjust the steering column so I can get a few more inches of clearance to get in out of the car.  Take a close look at that box it’s a one piece aluminum casting 3/16 of an inch thick. Nothing on his car was done on the cheap. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Excellent !!!

[Terry Harper]

Ed,

 

Wow! Its sounds nothing like I expected. I expected a stereotypical guttural chug and and a degree of clatter but its not there.

Its sounds solid and fantastic! Time to find a tunnel open the cutout and get down on it

 

Quality, quality, quality......

 

T

 

 

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

Looking at the wiring box and cables, my first thought was "And I thought my '15 Studebaker's wiring box and housings were over the top!" That car is simply awe-inspiring.

[edinmass]

Update:

 

Title problems.........had to call in again today, as the DOT doesn’t respond to emails or voice mail....if you get a human on the phone......then things work well. Worked my way through the system, figuring out the process myself........have an appointment for Friday at 2pm for an inspection. I should be all set. The inspector understands old cars to an extent. He is looking forward to seeing the car. That’s a positive development. Notice the Friday afternoon appointment? Inspect the car......and go home early for the weekend. Classic public service appointment. I’m grateful it will soon be over. No need for a new state assigned VIN. They are going to deal with the other car in Minnasoda..........I don’t car what they find. I should be able to title and get plates in a week or two. Depending on CARONA 19 appointments. Windshield will come out tomorrow. One by one, the list is getting shorter. Starting to look at the rest of the electrical system......more joy. Best to all, Ed

[Ozstatman]

Ed,

 

1 - In watching the video noted the gap between the right front door and the cowl and ask whether that is "normal"? Or is one of those things still on the list to be fixed?

 

2 - Saw a 1908(?) 4 cylinder Maxwell with T head engine last Friday. It too had double underhead camshafts. Before the comments earlier in this thread hadn't thought about the cam structure in T heads. But now it's been brought to light, wondering if ALL T head engines used a similar camshaft arrangement?

 

3- In the video noticed your White had "porthole" style windows in the "sails" on  the rear of the top. Thought they might give a clue to an identification asked in this thread. However, see that you already put the White idea to rest.

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Ozstatman (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Ozstatman, I can partially answer your number one question about the doors. A lot of American cars during the 1910s had this feature. A simple catch and clasp arrangement, often spring loaded to keep it out of the way when going in or out unless one made a small effort to hook it, would hold forward facing doors out about an inch open for cabin area ventilation on hot days. Such devices were common on many cars with doors opening to the front. Some cars as early as 1910, and continuing until almost 1920. The door then acts as an air scoop. I have seen several cars with this feature, both major expensive cars, as well as some common economy models. I have spoken with friends having such cars, and been told the air blowing in and up from down low can be very nice on hot days.

If you look very closely at the clip you posted, about halfway down the door, you can just see the the latch/clip hooked to the door. There is something blue sitting on the floor directly behind the clip making it easier to see.

 

Your other two questions/comments I will leave to someone else.

[1935Packard]

Sounds awesome, Ed!  ll's all the more interesting because I'm not sure I would have recognized how unique and special the car is without all the context about it that you have provided.  It's the kind of thing that's super interesting once you get into it, but that casual observer might not spot being as special as it is.  Looking forward to more, and thanks for it!

[edinmass]

Wayne is correct.....it’s the air conditioning system. The blue object is a battery. If you look close, there is not a single dent on the body or running boards. Only one small ding on one of the fenders. While we are working just as many hours on it now at night, the work has slowed, as the items we are tackling are the more difficult ones we bypassed to see if we had a good engine before we did all the difficult work with “little results”. From the looks of things, we will be at 95 percent in another two weeks. Time will tell.......and then there is the ever present unknown axx kicking issues that always pop up. 

[Ozstatman]

2 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Ozstatman, I can partially answer your number one question about the doors...........

Your other two questions/comments I will leave to someone else.

Wayne, thanks for your answer, on as Ed puts it, "the air conditioning system". 👍

[Terry Harper]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

"They are complicated and unusual.......take a look ......cast aluminum box with cast in wire conduit holes......insanity? The entire car is built like this. Look at the original battery cables also. The solenoid is mechanical over electrical using a linkage from the floorboard. It’s got more shafts and linkage than you can imagine, and all of it is on a tapered keyway with a castle nut and split pin. Working on getting the cut out functioning and finished. We also begin to adjust the steering column so I can get a few more inches of clearance to get in out of the car.  Take a close look at that box it’s a one piece aluminum casting 3/16 of an inch thick. Nothing on his car was done on the cheap. "

 

 

 

 

Ed,

 

It is amazing isn't it? The question is why they did things the way they did. When you consider that every engineering design is a solution to a problem it becomes challenging and interesting trying to figure out what the problem was (as perceived by them) and why they approached it the way they did. Its reverse engineering via forensics - not to create a component but figure out why it is the way it is and what the original problem was - Way cool stuff!

Edited September 15, 2020 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

6 hours ago, Ozstatman said:

Ed,

2 - Saw a 1908(?) 4 cylinder Maxwell with T head engine last Friday. It too had double underhead camshafts. Before the comments earlier in this thread hadn't thought about the cam structure in T heads. But now it's been brought to light, wondering if ALL T head engines used a similar camshaft arrangement?

 

 

 

In regards to T-heads, yes All had double cams in the crankcase. The difference with Ed's is the number of valves per cylinder and that all the valve gear is neatly enclosed within the blocks. (Sterling's big T-heads come to mind there) and also that its a mono-block where most T-heads had the cylinders cast individual or in pairs. In general by 1917 T-heads were a beast pretty much of the past but in other ways the White design as in Ed's car is advanced.

[Robert G. Smits]

The motor sounds sophisticated like a much later motor.  Congratulations and THANK YOU for deciding to keep it original and thank you for documenting your adventure for all of us.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Robert G. Smits
spelling (see edit history)

[padgett]

The big advantage to a T-head is the crossflow design. The big disadvantage is limited compression ratio and waste combustion pressure (anything not pressing on the piston). I wonder if the dual smaller valves allow higher compression and better flow particularly in light of the dual stage carb. Would need to do some modelling

[edinmass]

Update..........

 

So, as the car continues to improve.......dealing with things that were on the back burner and now advancing. Getting the starting system right was and will be a rather large pain in the AJ. Here is a photo or two of the battery box......the only thing on the car not in excellent condition was the water pump and battery box/battery cables. So, we are making a new box.....and having new cables fabricated. We rebuilt the linkage and soloniod switch. The car is rated for a 75 amp 12 volt battery. The box is huge, and we have the original hold down hardware........so we are going to "fill up the battery box" with the largest and highest amperage battery we can find........it's 1050 CCA low maintenance and while I rather an optima, I will go this way for now. The original exhaust has failed.....it looked so good at first......but after running the car, the header pipe must be replaced. We have a solution figured out "if, and only if" the large cast iron nut on the exhaust manifold wants to come off after 103 years.........we will know next week......as we are making a special spanner tool to remove it. I don't want to use heat....but I'm sure its going to be necessary. Another scary and serious challenge that I am sure we will get through one way or another. Tried to adjust the steering colmum up two inches.....but we would have to cut the floor and toe boards to do it....so we managed almost an additional inch..........in the future we may go two more but only after we show it in the preservation class. Found a good guy that I have faith in to deal with the gas tank. It's riveted and soldered........we will cut it open to figure out our next move..........and run on the fuel cell for a while till the big tank issue is resolved. As always, five steps forward, three steps back. Noticed the left rear wheel had grease on the brake linings today.....so now we will be servicing the rear end much sooner than expected. Probably will rip the front end off at the same time and get it over with......more work. It's frustrating now as both of us have put in five hours each night  and not much is getting accomplished. Just the way that very old cars go.........

Edited September 15, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

Battery Acid does that on even newer cars. Good news is that with proper tools should be easy to bend up a new one. Take Joe Martin about two minutes of airtime.

[edinmass]

Just now, padgett said:

Battery Acid does that on even newer cars. Good news is that with proper tools should be easy to bend up a new one. Take Joe Martin about two minutes of airtime.

 

It’s a simple box......I was quoted 135 dollars for an exact reproduction. Can’t complain about that. It should be done early next week. Going to keep pounding on items that were going to be done in the more distant future. As we say in the shop.......what’s next?