So Tesla is tanking... your thoughts?

[John348]

40 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

 Nothing that will be owned by members of our family, but I'm sure we will be forced to pay for another unwanted service. Bob 

 

HUH??????? 

Bob, with all due respect I must ask what unwanted service are you going to be forced to pay for?

Edited September 23, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[billorn]

41 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Amazing and sad that this crap has gone on for TEN pages on an "antique" website. Nothing that will be owned by members of our family, but I'm sure we will be forced to pay for another unwanted service. Bob 

 

10 pages with many posts by you, mostly to complain that not everyone likes what you like. Dont like it font read it. It's really easy not to click on the link and even easyer to not write anything.

[1935Packard]

7 hours ago, capngrog said:

I like Elon Musk.  He has shaken up both the auto and space industries with his (or his companies') innovative ideas.  In my opinion, both industries needed a bit of stirring up.

 

I hope Tesla (the corporation) succeeds for many reasons, but primarily because it is an American company and a leading innovator in the international automobile industry.

 

I hate the Tesla automobile and hate to admit (but never in writing) that it, by most accounts, is an excellent automobile.  "Makes no sense", you say.  Well yes, but on a visceral level, and as an old school, old car guy I can't stand the concept of our roadways being clogged with hordes of glorified golf carts silently and effortlessly going about their business.  I love the roar, clatter, bang and snort of the infernal combustion engine.  That video posted in this thread of Don Garlits' quest to hit 200 mph in his electric dragster makes me want to short circuit my lunch.  That thing (Don's electromatic demure dragster) is just ... well, it's just ... a non event.  What next, a human pod launched down the quarter mile by an electromagnetic catapult (as on our latest aircraft carrier)?   Soon, gone will be the violence, thoracic shock and sensory overload of a "fuelie" dragster hole shot  launching it to its quarter mile destiny 3 seconds later.  Line the electromatics up for their quarter mile duel, and they will launch like  hummingbirds to the traps a quarter mile away.  Will anyone notice?  Will anyone care?

 

Just sayin'.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

P.S.  I hate electric cars.

 

I understand and appreciate this perspective, but I have to ask: Have you driven a Tesla?   I've owned sports cars, and pretty fast sport sedans, and  I've driven extremely fast gas-powered cars.  But the first Tesla I drove, the Model S 100, was hands-down the most thrilling automobile I have ever driven.  It was a make-your-heart-race, sheer-joy-of-driving, hope-my-wife-tells-me-i-need-to-pick-up-something-far-away-so-i-can-drive feeling.  True, it's really quiet.  But it's also totally insane, rocket-launching acceleration plus incredible handling.   It was pretty far from a "glorified golf cart," at least in my view. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[cahartley]

Musk is an interesting guy as was Howard Hughes and any number of other innovators.

As for the price of his cars have you checked the prices of import cars many of which are north of 50K?

There's no shortage of other American cars the average American can't afford too.

It's about time someone does something REALLY innovative.

 

[1937hd45]

12 hours ago, John348 said:

 

HUH??????? 

Bob, with all due respect I must ask what unwanted service are you going to be forced to pay for?

The lost parking spaces that the rechargers take away from down town shoppers is the first obvious one. But I'm sorry, the electric people think they are Sooooooooooo much better they us poor slobs. Bob 

[John348]

7 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

The lost parking spaces that the rechargers take away from down town shoppers is the first obvious one. But I'm sorry, the electric people think they are Sooooooooooo much better they us poor slobs. Bob 

 

WOW.Bob... I hope you don't feel that way about handicapped parking also.... Most of the charging stations I had seen were not really near the building, but out in the corner far away. 

You should not look down upon yourself as a "poor slob", it is not healthy and can create unnecessary anger. There are just too many other real important issues then parking, has that even happened where you could not find a parking space? I don't even know what "electric people" are and why anyone would look down on anyone, and if this was so true why would you care?  Bob for your own sake you need to lighten up  (play on words intended)

[CarNucopia]

16 hours ago, John348 said:

I really am puzzled by many of the posters in this thread, I am interpreting that some people don't care for Elon Musk for some reason or another so they wish him failure. Some people are worried about what he is being accused of doing to share holders, really? you guys are concerned about the shareholders, I think failure would be a lot worse to those shareholder's as well as employees. One who is even a member of this site  He may be accused of some unethical things, and that still has to be proven. What about the ethics of Henry Ford and Harry Bennett at the battle of the overpass in 1937? 

for those who might not be familiar please read, and important part of American History as well as Automotive

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-ford-motor-company-won-a-battle-and-lost-ground-45814533/

 

I also want to thank the Moderators for deleting some post that I had read in my email notification, that are no longer on the thread..... thanks again

 

 

Nobody has expressed concern about shareholders. Can we please stop making arguments against points nobody is making? Or at least quote them instead of saying “you guys”.

 

The best thing that can happen for the workers is for the company to go bankrupt and get restructured. You may recall that’s why people at GM and FCA are still employed. The more they prolong this sinking ship, the more likely it is the company is disolved.

[billorn]

2 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

The lost parking spaces that the rechargers take away from down town shoppers is the first obvious one. But I'm sorry, the electric people think they are Sooooooooooo much better they us poor slobs. Bob 

 

You sort of need to put the charging stations where the electricty is dont you? Do they ask the owners of the cars where they want the chargers and those selfish jerks demand to have their spots up front? or do they put them where the people who own the parking lot want them? Theres a charging station in the strip mall near us and its over on one side of the lot by the road where most people dont want to park unless as a last resort. Its not like their taking handicap spaces or the spots near the stores.

 

Seems like maybe theres some real anger here for some reason and no matter what happens electric cars will continue to be annoying to you.......? Did someone in an electric car kill a family member or something? The one arm man in an electric car maybe?????

[John348]

54 minutes ago, Buick64C said:

 

Nobody has expressed concern about shareholders. Can we please stop making arguments against points nobody is making? Or at least quote them instead of saying “you guys”.

 

The best thing that can happen for the workers is for the company to go bankrupt and get restructured. You may recall that’s why people at GM and FCA are still employed. The more they prolong this sinking ship, the more likely it is the company is disolved.

 

I guess you missed it because because several posters on this thread have cited that in the last 10 pages, I am not going to reread this thread because appears from your reply that must have selectively read it, otherwise you would not have made the comment.  The sentence prior I clearly stated "some people" the sentence you mentioned was a question and the "you guys" was a general question to those who brought forth the shareholder concern,  I did not quote anyone in that post so I don't know why you specifically took exception, and I apologize if you thought it was directed to you specifically.

 

Please do not accuse me of making up an argument that was not posed, that is not the case, because it was...not just once and not just by one person

 

If you really think it benefits the employees to work for a bankrupt company waiting to get restructured there really is no point, in even discussing this further with you.

Have a great day! 

Edited September 23, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[CarNucopia]

5 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

I guess you missed it because because several posters on this thread have cited that in the last 10 pages, I am not going to reread this thread because appears from your reply that must have selectively read it, otherwise you would not have made the comment.  The sentence prior I clearly stated "some people" the sentence you mentioned was a question and the "you guys" was a general question to those who brought forth the shareholder concern,  I did not quote anyone in that post so I don't know why you specifically took exception, and I apologize if you thought it was directed to you specifically.

 

Please do not accuse me of making up an argument that was not posed, that is not the case, because it was...not just once and not just by one person

 

If you really think it benefits the employees to work for a bankrupt company waiting to get restructured there really is no point, in even discussing this further with you.

Have a great day! 

 

You don’t need to reread it. Simply do what I did and use the Search function to find “shareholder” or “share holder”.  You will see that absolutely nobody expressed concern about shareholders.  

[MCHinson]

While I really hate to even enter this discussion again, in John's defense, a search in this topic for the words "stock" and "investor" would show what he was talking about. There are often different words used so reading the topic will perhaps be better than simply searching for a few specific words.  

[kgreen]

I wonder if these same discussion occurred in about 1900 when motor cars were overtaking horse-powered transportation.  Think of all the horse manure on the streets of major US cities.  NYC was reported to have a 100,000 horses in the city at that time, depositing 2.5 million pounds of manure on a daily basis.  Gutters were full of the stuff, when it dried it blew in the wind, how many flies do you think would have been in the city at that time?  Imagine that volume of waste being shoveled into the adjacent rivers. I can hear the same arguments; Henry Ford just went bankrupt, the motor car is a nuisance, it's loud, it stinks.  Motor car people are obnoxious, etc, etc, etc.

 

The more people we have on this planet, the more we need to change to accommodate our masses.  Personal transport is already a super luxury in NYC.  It costs to drive into the city and it costs a small mortgage to park in the city.  It's just a shortage of space and the alternative of public transportation that have made changes from horse-power to car to public transportation.  Government intervention can make change happen, regulate something and people will move another direction.  Increase the gas tax, change the gas formulation, charge user fees and carbon tax and require strict car inspections and you will see a shift somewhere else.  We may very well change to an electric car in some regions of the country such as metropolitan areas, but in the end, I wonder if we will just lose the freedom of personal transportation.

 

Personally, I don't think we will run out of gas first.  As crazy as it may sound, I think we will run out of water first. 

[Restorer32]

I  think had they been contemporaries Elon Musk and Preston Tucker would have been great friends.

[8E45E]

Hans Ledwinka of Tatra would also have made a close acquaintance.

 

Craig

[mercer09]

Personally, I don't think we will run out of gas first.

 

 

Well there is a thousand years worth of oil up in Canada- tar sands. so I agree with you. Water is far more precise.

 

regarding the government controlling how we will drive in the future, I am not a happy camper about that, but do understand that it may become a necessity.

 

In Europe they have always had massive train systems, because of cost. Here in the US, we sort of do what we want, with the mantra "money is no object".

 

 

Passed a Tesla last night and was thinking, that car may drive fine and I dont know, because I have never driven one, but the exterior reminded me of a Buick. Boring and old. Not to offend anyone, but that is my take.

[Restorer32]

I fully believe, with the slow but inevitable improvement in self driving vehicles, that there will come a time when people look back in disbelief at a time when an individual could legally get behind the wheel of a 4000 lb vehicle and drive it in close proximity to other folks behind the wheels of their vehicles. The days of individually driven vehicles is slowly but surely drawing to a close, sad to say. I think my Son, 35,  might very well live to see that day. "I remember the days when you could get into a 4000 lb car or even an 80,000 lb tractor trailer and YOU CONTROLLED BOTH THE SPEED AND THE DIRECTION YOURSELF. There was nothing to stop you from driving off the road or even driving into oncoming traffic".  "Mom....Grandpa is exaggerating again".

[TerryB]

2 hours ago, mercer09 said:

 

 

Passed a Tesla last night and was thinking, that car may drive fine and I dont know, because I have never driven one, but the exterior reminded me of a Buick. Boring and old. Not to offend anyone, but that is my take.

A million plus Buick owners just praised your comment that their car looks like a Tesla!   Been a while since Buick styling could be mistaken for something else.  I was at our local mega grocery store and of course my wife parks our wheelchair van in the handicapped parking spot.  Next to us in another handicap spot was a late model Buick LaCrosse with some type of add on vinyl roof and gold trim.  I thought that style was long gone!  We often comment on the type of cars we see in handicap spots.  Everything from 80s sedans covered in bumper stickers to a Jaguar convertibles and Porsche SUVs.

[60FlatTop]

In the mid-1960's I used to ride the Chicago Northwestern down from the Navy base in North Chicago. I'd walk along those bridges that Bob Newhart showed at the beginning of his TV show and at the end I would catch the trolley along the lakefront. That was the oldest set of trolleys operating there and they had wicker and rattan seats.

 

I can't wait to see the self-driving car with the eco-friendly "natural" seats with a carbon footprint reaching to the tropical plantations of Borneo (once all the fires from burning the jungles stops).

 

Of course, not all memories are nostalgia:

" Nor did rural people adapt adroitly to the new dangers: with alarming frequency, speeding cars maimed and killed humans as well as chickens. Motorists fumed at the astonishing stubbornness of people who refused to recognize the new realities of the road: if pedestrians did not change their ways, they were to blame when calamity (in the form of a car) struck. As a contributor to a German motor magazine observed in 1909, more in sorrow than in anger, “A large proportion of accidents happen because the other users of the street refuse to acknowledge and adapt to the changed circumstances brought about by the appearance of the motor car. The heedlessness with which the public still crosses the busiest streets is beyond belief; and many parents let their children use the street as a playground, as if streetcars and automobiles simply don’t exist.” Still, only the most callous expected to be able to kill or maim passersby without consequences—probably not even Colonel J. T. C. Brabazon, a Conservative MP (and later minister of transport), who, outraged by a 1934 proposal to impose speed limits in order to save lives, sputtered, “Over six thousand people commit suicide every year, and nobody makes a fuss about that.”

 

Nuthin' changes but the date.

[padgett]

In the automotive world nothing new ever seems to last long in the first iteration. Reflecting back to post 255, my two Buicks, neither of which looks like a Buick & both AACA eligible, are representative of this: the '88 was one of the first production cars to have a touchscreen in the dash. By 90 it disappeared. Five model years for anything really different seems the limit.

 

ps if this thread goes on long enough, the Tesla will be AACA eligible.

[nick8086]

Any one talked about the cost to repair the car after a wreck?

 

camera
car sensors
computer repair

 

I just  saw  MSN talk about a 2018 car cost could be 30K. to replace all the bells and fun stuff in a new car.. If you got into a wreck.. 

[John348]

53 minutes ago, nick8086 said:

Any one talked about the cost to repair the car after a wreck?

 

camera
car sensors
computer repair

 

I just  saw  MSN talk about a 2018 car cost could be 30K. to replace all the bells and fun stuff in a new car.. If you got into a wreck.. 

 

Why would anyone own a car of that value (or any brand new car for that matter) and not have collision on it? If it was leased the owner must have collision, if there was a loan on it the owner must have collision, and if the owner bought it cash, and did not have collision  they have enough money to have it fixed 

Edited September 25, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[nick8086]

The most expensive car to crash according to IIHS and HLDI data is the Bentley Continental GT. Claim frequency for the luxury coupe is 7.1, while claim severity is a $35,744, which is around the price of an average car sold in the U.S. Overall losses on the Bentley Continental GT is $2,536.

 

The cost is passed on to us..

 

 

[John348]

20 minutes ago, nick8086 said:

The most expensive car to crash according to IIHS and HLDI data is the Bentley Continental GT. Claim frequency for the luxury coupe is 7.1, while claim severity is a $35,744, which is around the price of an average car sold in the U.S. Overall losses on the Bentley Continental GT is $2,536.

 

The cost is passed on to us..

 

 

 

I really don't understand the point you are trying to make,  The cost of uninsured motorist is also passed on to the consumer, which I would venture to say there are more accidents involving then high end cars,   How many Bentley Continental GT's, are on the road and how many are involved in collisions?  Same question should be asked about Tesla's.

Edited September 25, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[nick8086]

The car was a KIA or another car.. You add camera and road car sensors. It is 5k to repair.. This is just a new car. They are adding the stuff from the high end cars in the daily drivers..  It is cheaper for me get insurance on my old cars per year I have 20 old cars. I pay more on my kids car per year so he has a car to drive..

 

My point  it is great to have a green car.. but the cost  may not make sense.  

[Restorer32]

Anyone know what it costs to fully insure a Tesla?

[Bhigdog]

Tesla got mention in todays WSJ. It wasn,t positive......bob

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

Anyone know what it costs to fully insure a Tesla?

 

The cost would vary tremendously from area to area,

so we'd have to compare it to a typical car in the same area.

(Does anyone here have a Tesla and a routine car of the same age?)

 

Insurance costs in, for example, a traffic-packed and

crime-prone part of California, may be multiples of the cost

in a safe, remote rural part of Montana.

Edited September 25, 2018 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

We are nowhere near Teslas being economically sensible to buy.  At this time, nobody is buying them because it makes financial sense.  That would take many, many years to develop, if that is even the true goal.

[39BuickEight]

7 hours ago, nick8086 said:

The most expensive car to crash according to IIHS and HLDI data is the Bentley Continental GT. Claim frequency for the luxury coupe is 7.1, while claim severity is a $35,744, which is around the price of an average car sold in the U.S. Overall losses on the Bentley Continental GT is $2,536.

 

The cost is passed on to us..

 

 

 

We can thank attorneys for the increasing cost of insurance.

 

There are about 99 factors that influence your auto insurance rates, and at the bottom of that is the relative price of the car you drive.  Corvettes are very often cheaper to insure than Honda Civics.  Think about who drives them.

[charlier]

42 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

The cost would vary tremendously from area to area,

so we'd have to compare it to a typical car in the same area.

(Does anyone here have a Tesla and a routine car of the same age?)

 

Insurance costs in, for example, a traffic-packed and

crime-prone part of California, may be multiples of the cost

in a safe, remote rural part of Montana.

 

Another BIG factor in the cost of car insurance is one's Credit Rating. It seems that insurance companies have developed statistical data that indicates a direct relationship between a driver's risk potential and their credit rating. Not saying that is right or wrong just saying that  it comes into play when determining insurance rates.

 

Glad you included the word "safe" in mentioning rural areas because "rural" does not automatically mean "safe" or cheaper to insure. Ask me how I know.

 

Charlie

[39BuickEight]

People who are bad with money often don't understand the financial responsibility of owning and caring for a vehicle and operating it in our society.  They have been duped into thinking they can afford a car that they can't because they weren't raised in any meaningful way, then they can't afford their deductible, then they act like accidents are never their fault, then their cars never get fixed so the bank puts a claim in when they repossess it.  That's a worst case scenario, but versions of it are the way of life for insurance companies.  Its a very direct relationship.

 

40% of insureds put in 90% of the claims.

 

Your typical Tesla customer is not in this group, though there are exceptions to everything.

 

 

[countrytravler]

Someone on this post was talking about Tesla owners being snobs. The Tesla cars that I have delivered treated me really well and tip well. Tesla is so far behind with the car logistics that they are reaching out for more carriers and talking about building their own fleet.

[countrytravler]

I 95 in Virginia. A load of Teslas. Don't know what happened.

[mercer09]

the photo of the car carriers reminds me of a good propaganda piece!

 

they arent even close to production quota and they cant deliver them fast enough?

 

OK, yes Im a skeptic...... Elon has lied before.

 

Amazon is creating its own plane fleet. Maybe Elon wants to be like Bezos!

[TerryB]

2 hours ago, mercer09 said:

the photo of the car carriers reminds me of a good propaganda piece!

 

they arent even close to production quota and they cant deliver them fast enough?

 

OK, yes Im a skeptic...... Elon has lied before.

 

Amazon is creating its own plane fleet. Maybe Elon wants to be like Bezos!

Yes, delivery is an issue, when you make more cars than ever you got to get them in the hands of the buyers in a timely fashion.  Same is true at the point of delivery to the customer where backups are happening too.  Wouldn’t the local Chevy dealer love to have those problems! 

[charlier]

Tesla's "production hell" and now their "logistics hell"  are blatant examples of POOR PLANNING by Tesla management that could have been PREVENTED.

Plain and simple, end of story.

 

Obviously Tesla has never heard of the 7 P's or is too arrogant to believe the 7 P's apply to them.

 

 Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Painfully Poor Performance

 

This is what happens when an innovator/dreamer (ie Musk) does not hire people skilled in these areas and LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS. 

 

Charlie

 

[billorn]

If you go into a new car dealer and order a car how long does it take to get to you? How long does it sit in a lot somewhere waiting to be picked up? Its not like this is unique to Tesla. YOu guys in shipping know how this works its not easy.

 

If you have already decided to hate something then everything it does is more evidence that your right to hate it. This is a good case on point.

[Frank DuVal]

In a span of three miles, that I-95 accident involved 10 tractor trailers and 25 other vehicles.  I-95 was closed for several hours. 4 and a half hours to open all three lanes. Not a great day for commuters. The problem in that area is there are only two roads north-south, US 1 and I-95. Every other smaller road is cut off by Quantico Marine Base. To avoid US 1 and I-95 through Quantico, you must drive 39 miles on two lane roads (about 1 hour) to bypass that 7 miles of interstate. I'm sure yesterday those small roads were packed. ?

 

The Teslas look fine on the carrier. The are headed southbound to me!?

[Spinneyhill]

5 hours ago, billorn said:

If you go into a new car dealer and order a car how long does it take to get to you? How long does it sit in a lot somewhere waiting to be picked up? Its not like this is unique to Tesla.

Yes. We bought a new VW in about 3rd week in October. It was built in Germany and the ship left Bremerhaven on 18 December. I followed that ship through Baltimore, Savannah, as it passed through the Caribbean, Manzanillo, the Panama Canal and Papeete to Auckland, where it arrived about 18 January. I followed the car to the yard in Mt Wellington. Then waited. And waited. And waited. After two weeks I rang the dealer here and they shook the cage of VW NZ. "Whoops, forgot about that one"!

 

Poor performance is not exclusive to any maker or warehousing company. Often it seems to be almost normal practice.

 

When we bought this car, one of the competitors' options was a plug-in hybrid. The premium for the electric version was $20,000 and the range was marginal - we live rurally. We have 5 kW PV generation but the initial premium was just too much.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[John348]

15 hours ago, billorn said:

If you go into a new car dealer and order a car how long does it take to get to you? How long does it sit in a lot somewhere waiting to be picked up? Its not like this is unique to Tesla. 

 

I ordered a new GMC Sierra 2500 Diesel on March 22, on my way to AACA Meet in Mobile AL. It was all done via the phone call and an email confirming the verbal order.   ( I never take one out of existing inventory, seems like they never have everything you need or have too much of things you will never need). He told me it will be about 2-3 months before delivery, which is what it took for all of the other trucks I ordered. I had the vehicle in my possession on May 30th. These orders take time. and it turned out it was sitting in a yard in NJ for two weeks waiting for a few more cars to place on the car carrier heading my way.  

 

15 hours ago, billorn said:

YOu guys in shipping know how this works its not easy. If you have already decided to hate something then everything it does is more evidence that your right to hate it. This is a good case on point.

 

Bill I could not have said it better!