So Tesla is tanking... your thoughts?

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, maok said:

Regarding your #4 point, it will be longer than that. Biggest hurdle will the liability issue. And also, IMO,  there  will be a need for integration with smart infracture, ie traffic lights, intersections etc.

 

I had this argument with my dad. Unfortunately, the automated self driving car will prove to be much safer than the human driven car very quickly.   Humans have two eyes and are easily distracted (phone, booze, food, makeup, etc).  Not to mention, many are idiots. A self driving car can have thousands of eyes and sensors and never be distracted.

 

Also, I just saw a stat that only 25% of 16 year olds have a drivers license vs 50% 25 years ago. There will be a whole generation that doesn’t know how to drive.

Edited April 22, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[mercer09]

until someone "fixes" the battery, electric cars will never overtake combustion.

The car is irrelevant.

 

Just common sense...........

 

safety isnt the issue- its the power source.

[maok]

1 minute ago, mercer09 said:

until someone "fixes" the battery, electric cars will never overtake combustion.

The car is irrelevant.

 

Just common sense...........

 

safety isnt the issue- its the power source.

Engineers always fix problems, it's a matter of time. Hydrogen is not far away.

[mercer09]

Engineers always fix problems, it's a matter of time. Hydrogen is not far away.

 

well, we've only been waiting well over 100 years..................lol!

[mercer09]

Tesla will hold an Autonomy Day on Monday, in which the electric-car maker is expected to unveil the company’s latest efforts aimed at self-driving technology. It comes just two days before first-quarter results, which are expected to show a loss owing to sagging sales of its vehicles.

[Gunsmoke]

I think it would be fair to Tesla, and to some extent, to the people of the world if the moderators decided after several months of this ranting, that this post be retired. The need for major companies (and especially energy responsible ones) to find ways to solve the ever worsening climate crisis is well documented and any well informed citizen knows that. While every old car nut may mourn the gradual extinction of gas guzzlers, few who are informed will argue it is not time. This thread I think (and I mave only read 6 or 7 pages of it) has a mis-leading and unnecessarily provocative title, and many of it's anti comments has potential to brand us all as "dinosaurs'. IMHO. 

[CarNucopia]

10 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

I think it would be fair to Tesla, and to some extent, to the people of the world if the moderators decided after several months of this ranting, that this post be retired. The need for major companies (and especially energy responsible ones) to find ways to solve the ever worsening climate crisis is well documented and any well informed citizen knows that. While every old car nut may mourn the gradual extinction of gas guzzlers, few who are informed will argue it is not time. This thread I think (and I mave only read 6 or 7 pages of it) has a mis-leading and unnecessarily provocative title, and many of it's anti comments has potential to brand us all as "dinosaurs'. IMHO. 

 

I, for one, hope the moderators leave the thread running.

 

I respect your opinion, but I think you miss an important point. Being critical of Musk and Tesla is often conflated with not caring about the environment. Many people, like me, are critical of them for reason that have nothing to do with the environment. Giving Musk and Tesla a pass on their very bad actions, because of their stated mission, will ultimately set the cause back you care so much about. Have a discussion about their current status is healthy. 

[alsancle]

Cause?

[CarNucopia]

21 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Cause?

 

11 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

I think it would be fair to Tesla, and to some extent, to the people of the world if the moderators decided after several months of this ranting, that this post be retired. The need for major companies (and especially energy responsible ones) to find ways to solve the ever worsening climate crisis is well documented and any well informed citizen knows that. While every old car nut may mourn the gradual extinction of gas guzzlers, few who are informed will argue it is not time. This thread I think (and I mave only read 6 or 7 pages of it) has a mis-leading and unnecessarily provocative title, and many of it's anti comments has potential to brand us all as "dinosaurs'. IMHO. 

 

[mike6024]

I worked on this house recently in Point Reyes. It has 5kw of solar panel generating capacity, which is quite a lot. Do the owners drive electric vehicles? No. BMW X5 SUV and some other vehicles. They are rich people who live in San Francisco, and this is their second home, something like an hour drive north. And I commuted one hour each way in my gas burning truck for the days I worked on this home. My take is the energy saved by these Photo voltaic panels is a drop in the bucket.

 

It has been said that if everyone had electric cars tomorrow, there would not be the megawatts available to charge them. The "grid" would collapse. I'm sure that's true. If you had some engineering skills and were motivated, you could do some calculating. For instance, worldwide oil consumption is up to about 95 million barrels per day. Would you like to replace that with electrical energy? You could convert that 95 MBPD to btu's then to kw-hours, or since that is per day figure 24 hours, and you can get kw of generating capacity required.

 

And the solar panels on the house only can generate at peak capacity for a few hours per sunny day, so a 5 kw system probably averages well below 1 kw over a 24 hour period.

 

On the other hand nuclear plants produce quite a bit but are being shut down, like this one:

 

Diablo Canyon was completed in 1973. The two 1,100-megawatt reactors at produce nearly 9 percent of California's electricity and provide enough power for 3 million people a year.

[alsancle]

The electric car is no solution to the "environmental crisis"  (assuming there is one, and assuming cars are causing the problem).

 

As stated above,  you still have to generate the energy since electricity is not energy source but a conduit.  Gasoline happens to be both.

 

A "true believer" is not really interested in the engineering since they are saving the world.

[Gunsmoke]

My point is that this site is not the "Business News" and should not be an open venue for bashing one person's business, regardless of personal preferences. I don't want casual observers of the site to think we all have our heads in the sand. If a poster has some sound, positive advice to offer on the subject of electric vehicles, then please do so. But anecdotal negative stories about solar panels or other proven climate sensitive technology helps no one. When I started university, I needed a slide rule to do math/physics. When I got my first Blackberry 15 years ago I thought it was crazy. Boy have I learned to appreciate advancements in technology. JMHO.

[alsancle]

Isn't the purpose of an open forum to allow for everyone's opinion?   I'm sure there are some positive opinions of Tesla mixed in with bad ones in these pages.   Mine was positive,  and I have despised electric cars since the Prius first showed up.

[mike6024]

11 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

But anecdotal negative stories about solar panels or other proven climate sensitive technology helps no one. 

 

So this is directed at me? I really don't get it.

 

[nick8086]

You have great repair shops. and not so good one..

 

I look at this:

 

I have do ship the car to CO to fix it....

 

https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/services/United States

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[mercer09]

I don't want casual observers of the site to think we all have our heads in the sand.

 

really? that's a concern?

[Gunsmoke]

10-4, I'm over and out.

[39BuickEight]

This whole alternative fuel thing is a hobby and interest for most who "participate" in it.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Many people buy electric vehicles for the same reason they buy a new phone every year--because they are techies who want the newest and shiniest things out there.  It often has nothing to do with any understanding of how or why the car actually does what it does.  People buy hybrid Tahoes because they want the fancy badge on the side that nobody else in the neighborhood has. 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

People around here buy electrics for all the reasons above plus money savings. Our gas is consistently the highest in North America, plus the Government kicks in substantial tax payer funded subsidy's . Sure would like to be wealthy enough to get all that tax payer money. Unfortunately I am stuck in the $10,000.00 - $15,000.00 price range for vehicles, no electric on sale in Canada for that sort of money. And since retirement I don't drive enough to make the gas savings make up the difference either. Most electrics in Canada are in the $40,000.00 and up class.

 

Greg in Canada

[mike6024]

goose may be cooked, beginning the roasting process as we speak.

 

$0.7 Billion loss this quarter, expected $0.5 Billion loss next quarter. Sales in Europe very poor.

 

"The Palo Alto, California-based company posted an adjusted loss per share of $2.90 for its fiscal first quarter. This was wider than the $1.30 loss per share consensus analysts were expecting, according to Bloomberg-compiled data."

[CarNucopia]

Self-proclaimed Tesla bull says Q1 was one of the worst debacles he's seen in 20 years

 

Revenue was down $2.6 billion over last quarter and they booked a $700,000,000 loss for Q1

[JamesR]

I have this idea (which qualifies as weird) that if there's ever a solar flare or a nuclear explosion in the stratosphere that fries everyone's electronics, my '54 Ford and '61 Merc with points ignitions will still work. And I even have an extra new contact points distributor for my Merc that might fit in my Pertronix ignition FE powered T-Bird, so that could be a third car.

 

But if the disaster doesn't happen, a gas shortage might. So having an electric car AND one or two old cars makes sense in that regard. I'm not quite ready to get one of these, though (even though my daughter would love it.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bhigdog]

Today's WSJ compares the CO2 released by a Mercedes C220d and a Tesla 3 in Germany. The Mercedes releases 141 grams of CO2 per kilometer driven. That includes the carbon emitted by drilling, refining and transporting it's fuel. The Tesla emitted between 156 and 181 grams/kilometer. That includes the carbon emitted in battery manufacture and assumes a 10 year battery life and the CO2 emitted by electric generation for charging.

So lets see:  A Tesla 3 is only viable if heavily subsidized. Has limited range. Is time consuming to "refuel". Emits more pollutants than a diesel car and has limited dealer/service options.

Oh yeah.   BING! BING! BING!    We have a winner.......................NOT!.......................Bob

Edited April 25, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[charlier]

4 hours ago, Buick64C said:

Self-proclaimed Tesla bull says Q1 was one of the worst debacles he's seen in 20 years

 

Revenue was down $2.6 billion over last quarter and they booked a $700,000,000 loss for Q1

 

It appears as if the Q1 2019 loss basically wipes out the profits of Q3 & Q4 in 2018.

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:29 PM, alsancle said:

The electric car is no solution to the "environmental crisis"  (assuming there is one, and assuming cars are causing the problem).

 

As stated above,  you still have to generate the energy since electricity is not energy source but a conduit.  Gasoline happens to be both.

 

A "true believer" is not really interested in the engineering since they are saving the world.

 

 

The production of batteries is as bad for the environment  as any gas burner.  Engineers will solve the climate change.   

[avgwarhawk]

6 minutes ago, charlier said:

 

It appears as if the Q1 2019 loss basically wipes out the profits of Q3 & Q4 in 2018.

 

 

 

Well, a company can not keep promising a particular Tesla model and then not deliver.  It is bad for business as we see.  

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

Today's WSJ compares the CO2 released by a Mercedes C220d and a Tesla 3 in Germany. The Mercedes releases 141 grams of CO2 per kilometer driven. That includes the carbon emitted by drilling, refining and transporting it's fuel. The Tesla emitted between 156 and 181 grams/kilometer. That includes the carbon emitted in battery manufacture and assumes a 10 year battery life and the CO2 emitted by electric generation for charging.

So lets see:  A Tesla 3 is only viable if heavily subsidized. Has limited range. Is time consuming to "refuel". Emits more pollutants than a diesel car and has limited dealer/service options.

Oh yeah.   BING! BING! BING!    We have a winner.......................NOT!.......................Bob

 

The Germans wrote a very convincing article for diesel and what is bad about EV/batteries.   The Tesla 3 has been promised and promised.  Tesla failed to deliver.   

Edited April 26, 2019 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green

[1912Staver]

25 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

 

The production of batteries is as bad for the environment  as any gas burner.  Engineers will solve the climate change.   

 

 

Statement #1, Yes ! , Statement #2 …. maybe, we will see.  I have a reasonable amount of trust in engineering, however everything has practical limits. Climate change takes place on such a large scale that although mankind can team up to create millions of tons of emissions, removing those same emissions in a time frame that will actually work may be asking too much. Its easy to "make money" doing something that degrades the environment.  It is pretty hard to clean up the environment without spending money. How much clean up can the world economy afford , and in what time span.  These climate change events are unfolding fairly rapidly . Can we undo the damage quickly enough without crashing the world economy to be effective ?

 

Greg in Canada,  formerly  employed as a Global Warming Engineer.  { Ships Engineer}

[Bhigdog]

Figures don,t lie but liars can figure. That goes for both sides of the debate.

EVs make sense for a tightly packed urban short trip environment or known itinerary repetitive missions. For the rest of us not so much........bob

Edited April 26, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[maok]

Well without a relatively healthy environment, will an economy survive?

[mike6024]

It's nice to see the electric buses in San Francisco, and the trolleys. They don't need batteries. Wish it were the same for electric cars on the highway. I have actually wondered about this. 

[1912Staver]

3 minutes ago, maok said:

Well without a relatively healthy environment, will an economy survive?

 

That depends. Would you call India's or China's environment healthy ?  Their economy may not ultimately survive any better than anyone else's , but for the time being at least quite a robust economy in both country's.

 

Greg

[1912Staver]

But yes, long term all economy's are threatened and quite possibly ultimately doomed.

 

 

[Peter Gariepy]

1 hour ago, Dave Fields said:

Lies of the devil. Satan has their heart.

Oye.  GREAT RETORT THERE DAVID!  Productive and helpful and insightful! (yes, sarcasm)

[maok]

1 minute ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Oye.  GREAT RETORT THERE DAVID!  Productive and helpful and insightful! (yes, sarcasm)

There is high probability that they are atheist, so the devil and Satan are less likely to be an influence...lol

[Spinneyhill]

5 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

Well, a company can not keep promising a particular Tesla model and then not deliver.

This was standard practice for Microsoft back in the '90s and earlier. Vapourware it was called. Promise then delay. Then delay some more... and more.

[mercer09]

This was standard practice for Microsoft back in the '90s and earlier. Vapourware it was called. Promise then delay. Then delay some more... and more.

 

 

 

Hence the "new" Uber style taxi service with no drivers, that will be using customers cars?

 

sounds like a stretch, but cant fault Musk on coming up with ideas.....

[mercer09]

Engineers will solve the climate change.

 

 

 

well, if you think they are God, then perhaps..................

[avgwarhawk]

20 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

Engineers will solve the climate change.

 

 

 

well, if you think they are God, then perhaps..................

 

No, not God. However, engineers have done one heck of a job improving combustion engines that once spewed more unburned fuel than exhaust from tailpipe to mostly water.  Improved solar panels. Windmill design, Hydro-electric and nuclear. It will not stop there.