Driving old cars vs new cars

[kgreen]

Over the years, most of my special interest and antique cars were old enough to have compromised reliability; even the ones I used as daily drivers and had been significantly rebuilt.  I've driven many miles in old cars, suffering faults that the original manufacturer never dreamed of since they seemed to target a useful service life of 3 to 5 years.   

 

Today I was driving a new, loaner Ford with 178 miles while my newer but still under warranty car is in the shop.  Darn thing gave me a start when I pulled up to a red light and the engine failed!  Holy mother of Chinese reproduction parts, what happened?  I read the warning label that the dealer left on the dash - oh, it is supposed to do that, it saves gas.  I drive older cars enough where I am conditioned to worry about things like that.  I laughed the first time that I recognized what happened, but not the second time.  I'm left wondering if I drive old cars too much.

[SC38dls]

No, next time ask for a prewar loaner. 

Dave S 

[capngrog]

Which war?

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

P.S.  I know, I know, "pre war" to us car guys means pre-WWII.  I'm not sure that WWII is even given a mention in today's educational institutions; hence, my tongue-in-cheek question.

[mercer09]

my question- do these new cars burn out starters with the on and off?????????????

[JV Puleo]

The first time I encountered that was in England driving a rental car. I really disliked it. I do not have boundless faith in electrical systems. I also found that you could disable that feature and that if I kept the clutch in, it didn't stop. That probably won't mean much here but in the UK standard transmissions are the norm. I've had an idiot at the rental car agency insist I pay extra for an automatic because "Americans don't know how to shift." Needless to say, I refused and told him I was driving English standard transmission cars before he was born.

[SC38dls]

36 minutes ago, capngrog said:

Which war?

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

P.S.  I know, I know, "pre war" to us car guys means pre-WWII.  I'm not sure that WWII is even given a mention in today's educational institutions; hence, my tongue-in-cheek question.

Any war !  WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 1 or 2 

Dave S 

[gungeey]

These on/off systems are not so much for fuel savings as they are EPA mandated pollution reduction. The idea is 5 years from now there won't be big invisible plumes of smoke over your nearest city red light at 5:00 on a Friday afternoon. 

As noted earlier, there will be a big plume of smoke over the starter motor factory instead: they will be working OT with all the starters that will be getting replaced prematurely...Steve

[JFranklin]

I hate all the "NEW" forced on us. You can't get what you want or really need sometimes. Mattresses that can't be flipped, washing machines that need special detergents, cars that shut off at stoplights, & etc. Hey and where can I find a payphone when I need one? 

[Laughing Coyote]

3 minutes ago, JFranklin said:

I hate all the "NEW" forced on us. You can't get what you want or really need sometimes. Mattresses that can't be flipped, washing machines that need special detergents, cars that shut off at stoplights, & etc. Hey and where can I find a payphone when I need one? 

I always see the old stuff on CL for sale and it's like brand new condition half the time at a cheap price.  It's been sitting in someones garage or cabinets forever.  Then it's "Honey we need to get rid of this old junk and get something better."  And in about a year of use it's broken and off to the land fill it goes, because the parts to fix it if you can get parts cost more than buying a new one.  Mean while the old one is still operable and will be for many more years since it was built with QUALITY!  Imagine that.

[cahartley]

I first heard of this a few days ago.

I thought......................never mind what I thought....... 

[Spinneyhill]

I like the silence and lack of vibration when sitting at the lights with the engine off! The old Mazda 6 2005 doesn't have that but I have been putting it in neutral to stop the automatic box pull and turning the engine off at esp. long stops.

[Restorer32]

I wondered around India for several months in 1970. At every stop light EVERY car was shut off until the light changed.

[Restorer32]

Fiat Ambassadors mostly.

[kgreen]

9 hours ago, mercer09 said:

my question- do these new cars burn out starters with the on and off?????????????

Very good question.  I wonder what the difference in environmental impact is If we were to calculate the fuel savings at stop lights compared to the energy and materials savings from the extra starters manufactured from extended use.

 

I sat in a presentation once where a sideline calculation was made showing how the Navy style shower heads saved water but increased energy consumption.  The shower head acts as an expansion valve similar to your A/C system and cools the exiting water, causing more hot water to be used.  I didn't check the math but it looked reasonable.

 

It is a fact of life on this planet where we just don't have the resources for an ever expanding population.  I'm not sure if I will be around at the time, but we will run out of an ability to provide individual supported transportation someday.  

[joe_padavano]

First of all, yes, new cars are designed to beat the EPA CAFE tests, not to maximize mileage in the real world.  The test HAS been modified over the years to be more representative of real life, but still isn't perfect.
 

Having said that, engineers aren't stupid. We account for lifetime in the design and sizing of parts like starters. Many new hybrids actually use the electric assist motor to restart the gas engine.  There is an even better technology that doesn't require a starter motor at all.  The shutdown software actually stops the engine with the pistons in a particular configuration. With direct injection, it is possible to get the engine spinning by simply squiring fuel into the combustion chamber and igniting it. You all should read about this new technology sometime.

 

On the other hand, I never plan to own a car new enough to have this technology.  Not because of the technology itself (I drive a lot of rental cars for work and frankly the are functionally better than my old cars in pretty much every way) but because of the distracting technology interfaces. Every single function must beep, ding, or otherwise make unnecessary noise.  Of course, once you get used to these warning sounds, you tune them out (a lot like I did with my ex-wives), which naturally renders them useless. And frankly, if I can't drive safely without all the electronic nanny apparatus, I shouldn't have a license. I firmly believe that all this crap only serves to accelerate the decline in the already dismal driving skill of the American public.

 

I should also mention that I won't own a newer car because the all look like crap.  Every vehicle on the road has the same silhouette. This is understandable because they are "styled" in the wind tunnel (the same reason why all commercial jet liners look alike). As a result, stylists have resorted to using garish feature lines on the sides of the cars that just look like crap.  I guess this "styling" is for the generation of buyers raised on Transformers movies.

Edited August 27, 2018 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[Wheelmang]

Just think of the time, fuel and pollution savings if they spent more money on smart signal lights. A lot of that stopping and starting can be eliminated!

[Graham Man]

VW did testing on these systems years ago, and decided to not use them because customers did not like them in the US.  Apparently things have changed?

 

I rented a car last spring in TX, got it up on the highway and could not pass anyone, floor it and it would slow down!!!  Apparently it has an automatic breaking system, and the sensitivity had been turned up to like 10 car lengths?  In Dallas I was going backwards, luckily my passenger figured out the button to turn it off.

 

[JFranklin]

53 minutes ago, Wheelmang said:

Just think of the time, fuel and pollution savings if they spent more money on smart signal lights. A lot of that stopping and starting can be eliminated!

The reason for bad timing of signal lights is the factor of gas taxes. the states and cities do not want to lose the revenue! I sometime think the signaling is set to maximize gas tax receipts.

[Dandy Dave]

13 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

The first time I encountered that was in England driving a rental car. I really disliked it. I do not have boundless faith in electrical systems. I also found that you could disable that feature and that if I kept the clutch in, it didn't stop. That probably won't mean much here but in the UK standard transmissions are the norm. I've had an idiot at the rental car agency insist I pay extra for an automatic because "Americans don't know how to shift." Needless to say, I refused and told him I was driving English standard transmission cars before he was born.

And all that from the land of Lucas. Flicker, Dim, and Off. ? 

[CHuDWah]

Whether the goal is to conserve fuel or reduce pollution, obviously burning less gas will achieve it.  A quick Google search shows an average stoplight time of two minutes (yeah, it seems a lot longer).  There are lots of variables involved in how much gas it takes to restart but it's usually less than idling that long.

[46 woodie]

Not as extreme as your situation, but my new VW Alltrack's windshield wipers go into intermittent mode when I stop at a traffic light. The first time it did it, I thought the car had stalled. It's annoying especially when the light turns green and you can't see it until the wipers come back on. What the heck is the reason for that, my dealer can't tell me? I think the only solution is to start restoring '50s cars with new engines and brakes and use them as daily drivers, the heck with the modern stuff.

[John_S_in_Penna]

33 minutes ago, JFranklin said:

The reason for bad timing of signal lights is the factor of gas taxes. the states and cities do not want to lose the revenue! I sometime think the signaling is set to maximize gas tax receipts.

 

I'm sure you're being facetious!

[Digger914]

 So I got one of those cars that detunes at stoplights and idles so low and rough that you think it's broken and going to die. I started out to post a note on how I developed  a steering wheel twitch to trick the engine computer into holding a smooth idle and how that same rhythmic tug on the steering wheel keeps new cars from shutting down . But I had to write this first paragraph a dozen times just to get this said. 

 

I grew to hate brand new cars when I was young and if I hadn't needed the tax break for my business, I would have never ever bought a new car. When you grow up in a new car dealership and every car in the driveway has dealer plates, you learn that new cars are not and never can be fun.  I was forced to drive brand new cars while living at home with the folks,  they were all dads cars, or the car dad sold you and sure the price was always great, but even today I still hate brand new cars.

[JFranklin]

1 hour ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

I'm sure you're being facetious!

Completely serious, dig deeper and you will find the facts.

[39BuickEight]

Another reason is to control speeding.  I have a local 4 lane highway that changes to red all the time with no cross-traffic present.  A local cop said they are programmed to do that to stop and/or slow down traffic.  I figured the brake pad manufacturing companies were in on it

[emjay]

17 hours ago, mercer09 said:

my question- do these new cars burn out starters with the on and off?????????????

Maybe some engineer will figure out that a starter isn't necessary.  With computer controlled ignition and then with a combustion chamber pressure sensor, or just the crankshaft positioning sensor any remaining intake charge could be ignited with some momentary timing change like manual advance cars could.  However, the fuel is typically shut off when throttle is closed.  

 

Some golf carts shut down as soon as the go pedal is released and then run the starter when the go pedal is depressed again.  Well at least the Harley Davidson ones when I was caddying.

 

[kgreen]

@joe_padavano "Having said that, engineers aren't stupid. We account for lifetime in the design and sizing of parts like starters."

 

Certainly didn't mean to imply anything about the engineers.  What is common is for the engineer to say X design is necessary and the accountants to say <$ for X design, what can you do?  

 

While it is unsettling to have the car go quiet, I imagine a complaint possibly heard 100 years ago might have been along the these lines:  "When I come to a stop with my horse and buggy all is quiet, this confounded automobile continues to rumble and belch even when I am not moving".  We've come full circle!

[kgreen]

2 minutes ago, emjay said:

Maybe some engineer will figure out that a starter isn't necessary.  With computer controlled ignition and then with a combustion chamber pressure sensor, or just the crankshaft positioning sensor any remaining intake charge could be ignited with some momentary timing change like manual advance cars could.  However, the fuel is typically shut off when throttle is closed.  

 

Some golf carts shut down as soon as the go pedal is released and then run the starter when the go pedal is depressed again.  Well at least the Harley Davidson ones when I was caddying.

 

 To this point, the loaner car I am driving will restart when it senses a load.  For instance, if I turn the fan up one notch, the engine will restart.  Years ago when living remote from power lines, a house would be provided with power from a generator that would cease operation when no load was felt and resume operation upon sensing a load.  

[39BuickEight]

My company cars does this, 2018 Chevrolet Traverse.  It will shut off, sometimes if the air is on high it won't, sometimes it will.  When I take my foot back off the brake it fires back up.  Overall it's fairly seamless, but does get jumpy sometimes.

 

We had Jeep Cherokees in around 2014.  They would not restart until you hit the gas pedal, which was very frustrating as there as always a delay in movement.  At least the Traverse comes on by the time I hit the gas.

[Frantz]

"Having said that, engineers aren't stupid. We account for lifetime in the design and sizing of parts like starters. Many new hybrids actually use the electric assist motor to restart the gas engine.  There is an even better technology that doesn't require a starter motor at all.  The shutdown software actually stops the engine with the pistons in a particular configuration. With direct injection, it is possible to get the engine spinning by simply squiring fuel into the combustion chamber and igniting it. You all should read about this new technology sometime."

Crazy the ideas engineers come up with that folks were able to manipulate at times 100 years ago.

But I sell new cars and it really is impressive to me what technology does. We have moved beyond the mechanical charm of the vehicle we love and they truly are machines of process today, all handled by computers. For decades, regulation has shaped the design and intent of automobiles (just look at a history of headlight regs in the US to get an idea). Automobiles are not engineered to last to antique, but to provide as trouble free operation as they can for ten to twenty years or 200k miles or so. Frankly the do that pretty well, and if that's how you judge a car, our antiques are unsafe polluting junk that only belongs in a museum. Five years ago some people complained about backup cameras as one more thing to break, now it's almost impossible to sell a car without them, new or used. Concerns on the starter seem a bit out of touch as starters really don't go so often as they did just 30 years ago. The start stop tech really just brings today's starters into consideration of failure. I see lots of hybrids (early adopters of start/stop) with well over 200k that have had no starters replaced. 

In the end, I do romance the idea of everyone having a crank start open touring car, but we're also no where near the end of the automotive journey and many crazier ideas will be on cars five years from now.

[ply33]

I or members of my family have purchased three new cars since the fall of 2000. All of them were hybrids that turned off the engine when it isn't needed to actually move the car. None of them have had a starter failure as there really isn't a starter to fail: They use one of the two motor-generators to spin up the gas engine. The motor-generators are permanently connected with the engine via a planetary gear set and the motor-generator has enough torque that it does not need a reduction gear to spin up the engine.

 

Only significant issues with the cars has been. . . Well, I can't think of much. Time was when Prius drivers were scorned as eco tree huggers poking along trying to hyper-mile. But at least among the younger set I see a lot of interest in them because they are basically very reliable cars that are very cheap to run. They seem to overlook the old hype and stereotypes and simply focus on what they want: A cheap and reliable way to get around in general and specifically to and from work. Probably the same reason that someone in the late 1930s would have been buying a Ford Model A.

 

My current car is a plug-in hybrid and I rather like the car being quiet. I find that when I reach the end of the battery only range I only wish that the batteries were bigger, it is so nice and quiet without the gas engine running. Not that it is any noisier with the engine on than any other car but that gas engines are intrinsically noisy.

 

I must live in a different part of the country with respect to highway and traffic engineers: Around here they usually try to synchronize the traffic signals so that the overall traffic pattern results in reduced congestion and increased average traffic speeds. If/when they want to raise the ire of car drivers instead of fiddling with the light timing they usually decrease the motor vehicle lanes to add bicycle lanes. Having been a bicycle commuter prior to retiring I don't have as much of a problem with that as some others I know.

[padgett]

The one thing I know with my older cars is that if the key is in my pocket, it is not running.

Speaking of which when in intermittent the wiper on a 1998 Mercedes stops when the car does, low or high keeps going.

And even before my time there was a starting technique called "on the spark". Basically, you turned everything on and swung the advance/retard lever a few times - often the engine would start. I agree a good computer and direct injection should be able to do the same reliably. Today my Buicks start on just a touch of the key.

Suspect there is little that someone has not thought of and just got lost. Years ago I participated in an Internet effort to keep from losing ideas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Media_Project

[John348]

I can drive my new cars all day! My old ones after an hour or two I had enough. 

I had a loaner 2019 XT5 over the weekend, and the engine shuts down while stopped, but I found if you put the vehicle in sport mode the feature is disabled. I have never heard of anyone putting a starter in anything in the last 20 years, or even a water pump for that matter 

[trimacar]

There are very few series of sequential lights anymore.  It used to be that a series of lights on a road might have been "timed" so that, if you were going the speed limit, you'd hit every green light.

 

Not so these days.  All those little white tubes that look like cameras are looking to see if there is a car waiting for the light to change, or if cars are still going through a light.  All that information is fed to a PLC (programmable logic controller) that then controls the light based on traffic flow and volume.  These can be programmed for specific minimum and maximum times, so, let's say, a green turn signal is never more than 15 seconds long, and so forth.

 

I was involved in getting a traffic light put at the intersection of a major highway and the private company road where I worked.  First, you have to prove that a light is needed.  The DMV for Virginia has a set of "warrants", and a certain number of those warrants must be met before they'll install a light.  Number of cars passing each way at intersection, number of accidents at intersection, pedestrian traffic, and so forth, I think there were 12 warrants in total, and you had to meet minimum on 4 or 5 to get a light.

 

Then, the company had to pay for the light since it was a "private" entrance.  $150K, and after it was installed, ownership was given to the DMV.

 

I do find it interesting that brake pad companies and local communities getting tax are in cahoots with how traffic lights work.  Learn something every other day...and that means the DMV is on the take too...wow...

[kgreen]

After having this loaner for several days and about 500 miles now, I've grown to appreciate the gesture of having reduced idle time.  I suppose farmer Brown said the same thing 100 years ago when he had to go to town and no longer had to clean his horse's dung from the city streets.  I wonder if cities adopted any regulations at that time for the potentially vast accumulations that could occur?

 

This vehicle has electric steering also, that seems only active with the engine operating.   I tried to turn the steering when when stopped at a red light and the engine off, it won't budge.  Again relating to the old car experience, I've had to coast off the road a time or two in the past, which effort required steering.  Even if I had power steering, the car could be maneuvered with the engine off.  Upon engine failure on the new car, I think my options would be limited, particularly if a collision incapacitated the engine and the car had further momentum but headed in a bad direction.

[joe_padavano]

39 minutes ago, kgreen said:

After having this loaner for several days and about 500 miles now, I've grown to appreciate the gesture of having reduced idle time.  I suppose farmer Brown said the same thing 100 years ago when he had to go to town and no longer had to clean his horse's dung from the city streets.  I wonder if cities adopted any regulations at that time for the potentially vast accumulations that could occur?

 

This vehicle has electric steering also, that seems only active with the engine operating.   I tried to turn the steering when when stopped at a red light and the engine off, it won't budge.  Again relating to the old car experience, I've had to coast off the road a time or two in the past, which effort required steering.  Even if I had power steering, the car could be maneuvered with the engine off.  Upon engine failure on the new car, I think my options would be limited, particularly if a collision incapacitated the engine and the car had further momentum but headed in a bad direction.

 

The electric steering is no different than hydraulic steering.  Without power, the wheels still turn. If you removed the power steering belt on one of your older cars, it would be equally difficult to turn the wheels without the car rolling.

[Doug Novak]

Slightly off topic maybe but my 2014 Chevy Equinox gets 99 Miles Per Gallon at all speeds!..... when drifting down hills and with the engine is running? The dash information screen tells me in real time what my MPG is and my average MPG for 50 miles.  I would assume my emissions are greatly reduced as well. I'm not sure if the RPM's changes when drifting, does the drive shaft, or transmission go to neutral, allowing the engine to idle when drifting? 

 

Checked this today while drifting and getting 99 MPG. The RPM's on the Dash do not vary  from that indicated when under throttle, what ever the speed is.. I assume that the gas is cut off at the Throttle Body.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Doug Novak
added info (see edit history)

[kgreen]

18 minutes ago, Doug Novak said:

Slightly off topic maybe but my 2014 Chevy Equinox gets 99 Miles Per Gallon at all speeds!..... when drifting down hills and with the engine is running? The dash information screen tells me in real time what my MPG is and my average MPG for 50 miles.  I would assume my emissions are greatly reduced as well. I'm not sure if the RPM's changes when drifting, doesthe drive shaft, or transmission go to neutral, allowing the engine to idle when drifting? 

What kind of trailer are you using to tow your Equinox?

 

Kidding aside, you are probably getting better than 99 mpg when coasting downhill for instantaneous mileage.  You've likely pegged the read-out at 99.  Unfortunately you have to come back up that hill and that instantaneous mileage is likely different.  I am unfamiliar with the Equinox, but an average of 50 mpg is great mileage, that is something to celebrate!  Improved gas mileage or higher performance out of smaller more fuel efficient engines is one huge benefit of newer cars.

 

 

[Frantz]

1 hour ago, Doug Novak said:

I'm not sure if the RPM's changes when drifting, doesthe drive shaft, or transmission go to neutral, allowing the engine to idle when drifting? 

Some modern automatic transmissions do allow the car to free wheel when going down hill rather than engine brake. It allows for more momentum to be saved and less power needed to go up the next hill. Nice for the East coast piedmont areas. It also doesn't have to inject fuel when going downhill.

[joe_padavano]

27 minutes ago, Frantz said:

 It also doesn't have to inject fuel when going downhill.

 

Most modern EFI systems do shut off fuel when coasting, thus the 99 MPG on the dash.