How do you determine if your car is "rare"?

[7th Son]

I'm not really concerned with rarity equating to dollar value. My question is what references describe the number of cars of the same year, make, body style, and accessories/options that were built that match the cars I own?

We have all seen claims of 1 of 100, 1 of 25, or even 1 of 1 describing unique cars. I have found various references that give gross production numbers and some that give more precise model by model build quantities, but have not, for example, gotten numbers showing more detail than the number of six cylinder examples built vs. V-8's.

Where do sellers get information as to the quantity of a certain model produced with particular engine, transmission, paint, or interior options? Many marques, as we know, manufactured thousands of a particular body style, but only a few survive with the most (or fewest) options available. 

Examples might be 1964 V-8 Falcon hardtops with 4-speed transmissions, 1957 Dodge D-500 2-door, sedans, triple-white 1969 Chevelle SS convertibles (none of which are owned by me).

 

Any help will be appreciated. Thank you.

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by 7th Son (see edit history)

[Fordy]

Ford Australia used to provide "birth certificates" that would indicate what you are asking. A pal has a Ford Ute (a pickup based on a passenger car -think El Camino) and it is stated as 1 of 1 per paint color and motor trans combo. Plenty in the color and plenty with the motor trans but only his combining the 2. Drawing a long bow to call it a rare vehicle as there are a lot of these still in everyday use.

I have a 1926 A series Hupmobile coupe (rough and needing restoration) and there is another in Tasmania that is restored. So here it is a rare car being the only survivor on mainland Australia. In the grand scheme of things there are more than a few left so again - rarity is a relative and flexible term.

For many British vehicles, the British Motoring Heritage Trust can provide details on trim / color / options etc.

I am sure most manufacturers could provide details - assuming they could be bothered. Most of the time you need to find the right enthusiast who has researched the car marque for answers.

Steve

[alsancle]

My general opinion is that 90% of the time somebody uses the word in referencing an old car they should not have.

Edited November 2, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[8E45E]

51 minutes ago, Fordy said:

Ford Australia used to provide "birth certificates" that would indicate what you are asking. A pal has a Ford Ute (a pickup based on a passenger car -think El Camino) and it is stated as 1 of 1 per paint color and motor trans combo. Plenty in the color and plenty with the motor trans but only his combining the 2. Drawing a long bow to call it a rare vehicle as there are a lot of these still in everyday use.

I have a 1926 A series Hupmobile coupe (rough and needing restoration) and there is another in Tasmania that is restored. So here it is a rare car being the only survivor on mainland Australia. In the grand scheme of things there are more than a few left so again - rarity is a relative and flexible term.

For many British vehicles, the British Motoring Heritage Trust can provide details on trim / color / options etc.

Kevin Marti also provides production breakdowns by options & colors in the "Statistics" column on his Elite Marti Reports for FoMoCo vehicles from 1966 to present.  An example of a Marti Report I posted here:

 

Craig

[Mark Wetherbee]

When you are buying a car, it’s common as dirt, but when you’re selling it it’s “RARE”…

 

Look up the definition and realize that very few cars can be considered “rare” as they are not always a single unique item nor seldom found. Yes there are some makes that survive in low numbers but claiming it to be the last in existence is fantasy, they were produced in numbers and a second is always possible.
 

“Rare” is the most abused description in the English language.

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

When you are buying a car, it’s common as dirt, but when you’re selling it it’s “RARE”…

 

Look up the definition and realize that very few cars can be considered “rare” as they are not always a single unique item nor seldom found. Yes there are some makes that survive in low numbers but claiming it to be the last in existence is fantasy, they were produced in numbers and a second is always possible.
 

“Rare” is the most abused description in the English language.

I have a whole “one of one“ fetish going. And I don’t use the word rare.

[Mark Wetherbee]

Just now, alsancle said:

I have a whole “one of one“ fetish going. And I don’t use the word rare.

And you absolutely could…

[8E45E]

10 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I have a whole “one of one“ fetish going. And I don’t use the word rare.

Ford encourages it!!  Ford® Custom Order | Your Ford Your Way

 

So does BMW:  BMW Individual | BMW USA

 

and Porsche:  Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur - Porsche USA

 

and Rolls-Royce: Private Office (rolls-roycemotorcars.com)

 

 Guaranteed, if you have bizarre taste, and want to make a statement with your "one of one", you'll have factory documentation to prove it!!

 

Craig

[edinmass]

 

Personally I don't consider any post war cars as rare. Look at actual production numbers. Calling a 60's car rare because of an engine option, transmission option, paint job, and suspension package does NOT make the car rare. When the basic platform is getting knocked out by the hundreds of thousands..........

 

A good friend once described a pre war car that had RARE painted across the windshield as......."no one wanted it when it was new either".

 

At this point in history, rare means absolutly nothing. 

 

Is a V-16 Cadillac a rare car? Nope....I know of many buildings filled with them. Same goes for Pierce Arrow, Packard, and all the others. 

 

One can not equate value to any particular production number..........look at the big boy Ferrari's............they made 36 of the 250's and they sell for let's say 50-90 million dollars. Really doesn't mater if it's "rare" as there are less than 1000 people on the planet capable of having their check cashed for the sales price. 

 

In the end.......cars are just cars. Common or not.....if you like it.....that is all that matters. 

[Walt G]

26 minutes ago, edinmass said:

In the end.......cars are just cars. Common or not.....if you like it.....that is all that matters.

EXACTLY the way I feel. thank you. Sage words.

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

“Rare” is the most abused description in the English language.

I agree that "rare" is a vastly overused description.

If half the cars for sale are "rare," they must not really be.

 

For most cars, the break-down of option combinations is

simply not available.  Those data have been lost.  People

ordered their cars with one of 15 or 20 standard colors,

one of 4 to 10 interior colors, one of maybe 3 different engines,

and a long menu of options.  A huge number of combinations

was possible, making many cars individual or with few matches.

 

Any Elcar, for example, is rare.  Can you imagine if an owner

said, "I have the only 1931 Elcar Model 130 in Dresden blue

with a blue interior and wire wheels!"

 

My thought:  Enjoy what you have, and give rides to friends

who don't have old cars.  To them, any old-car experience

will be memorable and unique.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

A car can def. be rare in that there may be a low survival rate of that particular model. Cars that I know, a 1969 Trans Am convertible is rare, they made 8 of them. One could argue that the convertible was an option so they made something like less than 800 total trans ams in 1969 so that equates rare to me considering how many cars were manufactured in 1969. I guess I am being a bit hypocritical but I dont get the idea of a car being 1 of a few to have a split bench seat and green paint being worth a zillion dollars when they made 1 million of those cars without those options. I would consider something like that valuable but not rare. I am thinking mopar muscle cars and chevelles ets. To me neither is rare but with certain options def. worth a lot of money. I would think because of a perceived low survival rate any Pinto, Gremlin, or Chevette would be rare today. I own a few motorcycles that total numbers existing can be counted on two hands, to me they are rare machines. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

For 1928, Stutz declared that they would make

no two cars alike.  Every car would have a color 

combination unlike any other.  So by today's overuse

of the word, 100% of their production was "rare!"  

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

5 hours ago, 7th Son said:

Examples might be 1964 V-8 Falcon hardtops with 4-speed transmissions... 

For the break-downs you seek, "Marti Reports" are

available for Ford Motor Company products 1967-2017.

They will list the percentages of cars with various options

and combinations.  You give your car's serial number (V. I. N.)

and they issue their report for that car.

 

https://www.martiauto.com/martireports.cfm

 

[TTR]

For me, any car with its "Bumpers chopped off, fluids drained, slapped on my shop floor !" is rare. 🤠

 

Vast majority of owners/sellers of any old vehicles they haven't personally seen lately or ever in person seem prefer call/consider/tout theirs as "rare", usually because they believe/think it will enhance its (or their own) prestige and/or the vehicles resale value.

 

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

One can not equate value to any particular production number..........look at the big boy Ferrari's............they made 36 of the 250's and they sell for let's say 50-90 million dollars.

With all due respect, but there were over two thousand "250" (i.e. 3 liter V12) Ferraris manufactured in 10+ variations 10+ year time span and just one being "250 GTO" which were 36 made and have perceived market value in the range you're referring to. Some "250's" can still be bought today for few hundred thousand $$'s and many more for less than $1M.

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

“Rare” is the most abused description in the English language.

And I always say "I thought" are the two most dangerous words in the English language.

 

Now, if you hear "I thought it was rare." There is a combination of abuse and danger that is pretty hard to beat.

[Terry Bond]

"Rare" is one of the most misused words in the English language when talking about automobiles or anything related. It holds second place only to the word "vintage."  There are sellers all over the place who promote their junk as "rare" including modern made yesterday in Cina fake crap. 

 

My steaks are rare, but cars? Find another Adams-Farwell. Still hunting for a 1983 Corvette?  That's what rare is.

Terry

[zepher]

I own what could be considered a 'rare' car.

Few people have seen one in person let alone drive one or ride in one.

And I'm not talking about color combinations or that nonsense, I'm talking the entire car, regardless of configuration.

 

But, it being 'rare' certainly doesn't equate to value.

At this point, the rareness of my car relegates it to obscurity.

Edited November 2, 2023 by zepher (see edit history)

[mobileparts]

Wouldn’t the Hudson Italia and the Tucker be considered RARE ?!?!

 

So RARE ( 26 Hudson Italias, and 54 Tuckers, I do believe… ) that they don’t even have to comment them as “ RARE “ …..

 

Just a thought…..

[63RedBrier]

5 minutes ago, mobileparts said:

Wouldn’t the Hudson Italia and the Tucker be considered RARE ?!?!

 

So RARE ( 26 Hudson Italias, and 54 Tuckers, I do believe… ) that they don’t even have to comment them as “ RARE “ …..

 

Just a thought…..

I believe a Hudson Italia just sold at the RM/Sotheby's auction at Fall Hershey.  It would have been much more "rare" to me if it would have been painted a more desirable color, and not tan...

[Mark Shaw]

To answer the original question:

• The "Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942 lists production numbers by model , with engine sizes, wheelbase, special features, etc. 
• This is my go-to publication to verify model and production numbers for American made prewar cars. 

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, TTR said:

For me, any car with its "Bumpers chopped off, fluids drained, slapped on my shop floor !" is rare. 🤠

 

Vast majority of owners/sellers of any old vehicles they haven't personally seen lately or ever in person seem prefer call/consider/tout theirs as "rare", usually because they believe/think it will enhance its (or their own) prestige and/or the vehicles resale value.

 

With all due respect, but there were over two thousand "250" (i.e. 3 liter V12) Ferraris manufactured in 10+ variations 10+ year time span and just one being "250 GTO" which were 36 made and have perceived market value in the range you're referring to. Some "250's" can still be bought today for few hundred thousand $$'s and many more for less than $1M.

 

No worries, I don't know post war stuff well enough to know they had affordable 250's also. 

 

Arn't we funny when we talk about non special affordable cars at 300 or 400 grand?

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Packard enthus.]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

 

In the end.......cars are just cars. Common or not.....if you like it.....that is all that matters. 

==========================================================================================

Couldn't agree more.   I bought mine cause I like it.  Damn right "that is all that matters".....

 

At the time....twenty five bucks was way too much for an old used  car that needed tires & a battery.....my parents thought I was nuts.  (this was when twenty five bucks was a LOT of money...represented two summers of mowing lawns.....)

 

Yes...I know....lots of '38 Packard V-12 Formal Sedans around....last I heard there were six still left out of the 14 that went out the door at East Grand Ave........so what?    I went to high school in mine.....buddies thought i was nuts for having a funny looking old car like that....'cause they knew my parents could afford to buy me something modern.

 

I can...and just did buy something modern - Toyota RAV 4 parked alongside it. Just think...in another 18 years....my Toyota RAV 4 is going to be a "classic antique"....

 

Now for a big decision...."which one should I drive to the supermarket today...?

[Gunsmoke]

Ok, so lets summarize, RARE or RARITY of a thing is defined as "not found in large numbers and consequently of interest or value". So the key element is "small numbers". When it comes to cars (old, or even relatively new), it should be noted that the definition says nothing about the age of a thing. Faberge Eggs were valuable and rare the day they were made in very limited numbers for Russian rulers. Bugatti Royales or Atlantics were rare the day they were produced in only a handful. Other cars become rare by definition as numbers surviving decline to a very small fraction of original production, particularly if they are cars of wide interest. Like most adjectives, it is up to the user to decide if it should be applied. I'm sure it would be hard to find a rare Volkswagen or Model T, or just about any mass produced car since WWII, but just about any Duesy could be described as one. 

 

[TTR]

Would a (post-war) car that literally is one-of-one, i.e. make/model/year/chassis/engine/body, not to mention having been owned by the original manufacturer/owner 5+ decades, qualify as “rare” ?

Although there might be other examples that qualify, but the first person to guess/know which one I referring to wins a lunch or dinner on me.

[TTR]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

No worries, I don't know post war stuff well enough to know they had affordable 250's also. 

 

Arn't we funny when we talk about non special affordable cars at 300 or 400 grand?

 

And of those couple of thousand 250’s, financial gains or values notwithstanding, there’s only a few I would possibly consider trading straight across for my PB Roadster “hot rod”, but none of the “GTO’s” aren’t on that very short list. 😳

Edited November 2, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[MotiveLensPhoto]

12 hours ago, 7th Son said:

I'm not really concerned with rarity equating to dollar value. My question is what references describe the number of cars of the same year, make, body style, and accessories/options that were built that match the cars I own?

We have all seen claims of 1 of 100, 1 of 25, or even 1 of 1 describing unique cars. I have found various references that give gross production numbers and some that give more precise model by model build quantities, but have not, for example, gotten numbers showing more detail than the number of six cylinder examples built vs. V-8's.

Where do sellers get information as to the quantity of a certain model produced with particular engine, transmission, paint, or interior options? Many marques, as we know, manufactured thousands of a particular body style, but only a few survive with the most (or fewest) options available. 

Examples might be 1964 V-8 Falcon hardtops with 4-speed transmissions, 1957 Dodge D-500 2-door, sedans, triple-white 1969 Chevelle SS convertibles (none of which are owned by me).

 

Any help will be appreciated. Thank you.

 

 

 

Gross production numbers should be easy to obtain on most cars. The number with different options might be more difficult. There's a formula to calculate the percentage of production with a certain option is fairly easy, just divide total production by the number produced with that option and you'll get a percentage (# total units/# of the option). If you want to know down to the specific, figure the percent with each option, then multiply those percentages.

 

I wish there were a way to know how many of a production year were still around, but that's probably not possible.

[arcticbuicks]

do the ugly ones really  count in being classified as rare ?

or should there be a sub class of rare ?and if now extinct......even though they maybe only made one.......was it rare ?......... or does it still have to exist today to be rare ?..........and then when does "super rare" or "extremely rare " come into play and not just "quite rare" or " these were rare when new"........and what about "rare find".........and "rare to find around here" ?

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, TTR said:

Would a (post-war) car that literally is one-of-one, i.e. make/model/year/chassis/engine/body, not to mention having been owned by the original manufacturer/owner 5+ decades, qualify as “rare” ?

Although there might be other examples that qualify, but the first person to guess/know which one I referring to wins a lunch or dinner on me.

The Buick Y Job? Sort of pre and post war at the same time. 

[TTR]

10 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The Buick Y Job? Sort of pre and post war at the same time. 

Not even close. 😉

 

Last I checked/heard/read, “Buick” made more than one car. 
I’m talking literally a One Car, including the brand, model, year, etc., just one.

[prewarnut]

Since "postwar" and "Ferrari" came up there's a "one of one" on BAT right now (I have no affiliation or interest in the sale).....so rarity happens quite commonly it would seem.

 

[zepher]

35 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

Since "postwar" and "Ferrari" came up there's a "one of one" on BAT right now (I have no affiliation or interest in the sale).....so rarity happens quite commonly it would seem.

 

If you go by that definition, the 2022 Maserati MC20 my cousin took delivery of last year is rare.

He custom configured the entire car.

Paint, interior, trim, drive train, suspension, everything. 

And, it's valuable and desirable. 

[edinmass]

Zepher……..without trying to disrespect anyone. That car is just a checkbook away. You can buy as many as you want. I’m certain that anyone who owns a car like that has zero interest in what floats my boat. And from my perspective I wouldn’t cross the street to look at it. Valuable and desirable……absolutely not to me. My only interest in that car is if you gave it to me so I can dump it and buy something interesting…..

 

My point is perspective……..steam, electric, single cylinder, V-16, rotary, sleeve valve……the list is almost endless. Yesterday I was at a shop, and I was looking at an American Muscle car. Looked nice, hadn’t seen one in a long time. I asked the shop manager if it was a 150k dollar car. He said absolutely not…….the customer paid 1.2 million. Shows how much I know post war stuff. Interestingly the same owner was building two resto rods for over seven figures each. More stuff I have zero interest in. I respect craftsmanship and and the persuit of excellence, as well as wanting something unusual built to a bespoke specification. Cool in their own right, but nothing I want in my garage.

 

Point of all this is………an individual’s personal values and life experiences is what defines rare, unusual, desirable, and valuable. It’s all good……..but most of us will wonder what the people on the other side of the hobby are thinking. 
 

Someone once wrote “if you want to understand your values, look at your cancelled checks.” Probably the best definition of how to look at oneself for evaluation and reflection.

 

My sincere hope is all parts of the hobby respect each other……

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

I know it is rare to only be in these cars what they are worth.🤔 I think everyone will agree with that use of the word.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Xander Wildeisen (see edit history)

[nick8086]

Here is one I have postcards of but never seen one..

 

or the Gaylord Gladiator...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaylord_(automobile)

Edited November 3, 2023 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

"It's rare and no one cares" is the motto of Scott Newstead. His daily drivers are a 1949 Frazer and a 1984 Renault 5 and a Citroen DS station wagon. He is currently restoring a 1963 Rover 3 Liter for his sister to drive. They live in rural Alberta Canada, they don't have any trouble finding their cars in the Walmart parking lot.

 

How rare is rare, and does anyone care? There are rare cars that no one cares about like a 1955 Willys Aero or a 1961 DeSoto and there are much more common cars that people will beat down the door to get at like a 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air V8.

 

Maybe when they say something is "rare" it means it is not "well done".

[mechanician]

The easiest question of all... If I have it and want to sell it, it is rare; if you have it and I want to buy it, it is common.

[A Woolf]

Maybe "rarely seen" would be a better way to describe cars that too often get categorized as "rare".  I own a car of which only four of the particular model exist and only 32 of the marque are known to exist.  Rare might describe my car but "rarely seen" is probably a more accurate way to label the car.  

Alan 

[JV Puleo]

Rare is a word that has been reduced to meaningless but I think there is another that is commonly used and also has little meaning. To me, "worth" implies some intrinsic value. An automobile is a machine for moving people and things around and the only value old cars have is purely subjective. It's value is whatever someone will pay for it. They are "worth" something to me but no one needs to have one and most of the people I know don't place any value at all on them and especially on the ones I like. If I inherited a barn full of million dollar muscle cars I'd sell them without even looking at them so despite their being described as "worth" a lot of money, to me they are so much scrap metal but I'd happily take advantage of someone else's subjective assessment of their value.

[zepher]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Zepher……..without trying to disrespect anyone. That car is just a checkbook away. You can buy as many as you want. I’m certain that anyone who owns a car like that has zero interest in what floats my boat. And from my perspective I wouldn’t cross the street to look at it. Valuable and desirable……absolutely not to me. My only interest in that car is if you gave it to me so I can dump it and buy something interesting…..

 

My point is perspective……..steam, electric, single cylinder, V-16, rotary, sleeve valve……the list is almost endless. Yesterday I was at a shop, and I was looking at an American Muscle car. Looked nice, hadn’t seen one in a long time. I asked the shop manager if it was a 150k dollar car. He said absolutely not…….the customer paid 1.2 million. Shows how much I know post war stuff. Interestingly the same owner was building two resto rods for over seven figures each. More stuff I have zero interest in. I respect craftsmanship and and the persuit of excellence, as well as wanting something unusual built to a bespoke specification. Cool in their own right, but nothing I want in my garage.

 

Point of all this is………an individual’s personal values and life experiences is what defines rare, unusual, desirable, and valuable. It’s all good……..but most of us will wonder what the people on the other side of the hobby are thinking. 
 

Someone once wrote “if you want to understand your values, look at your cancelled checks.” Probably the best definition of how to look at oneself for evaluation and reflection.

 

My sincere hope is all parts of the hobby respect each other……

 

 

My cousin also laid out over $130k to start the restoration on his dad's 1924 Chrysler roadster.

He knows the car isn't worth that but he wanted to give his dad a frame off restoration and do the car justice.

His dad has owned the car since the early 60's.

It was a purely sentimental outlay.

He plans on buying something like a Pierce or Packard when he gets a second, very large garage built.

He loves prewar cars and wants to own and drive a few.

He also grew up around my Grandfather's Pierce that I now own.

So people can have varied interests. 

He's always wanted a Maserati supercar so he wrote a check for one.

Took them two years to build it.

Edited November 3, 2023 by zepher (see edit history)