Pierce Arrow

[peezduk]

What could you tell me about this one?  Coming up for auction in a month or so from what I understand. Value??

[Peter Gariepy]

may want to reach out to pierce-arrow.org as well.

[alsancle]

You should post a link to the auction.  The car is located in Idaho so I assume the auction is somewhere near there?

 

Desirable body on a chassis that is tough to find parts for.  

[TAKerry]

I will admit I know nothing about these cars. I think getting in touch with the PA club is worthwhile. If for any reason you can find out what the mechanicals are thats a big help. Some cars can be left in original condition and enjoyed, I think this is one that needs restored. I can imagine what a beautiful vehicle this can be in top shape. Def has the lines and being a coupe I would think adds to the value.

[edinmass]

Neat car…….

 

Value is not very much. If it doesn’t run it should be considered a parts car for valuation. With more photos, I could make better comments. Even running, it’s probably NOT a 10k car.

[alsancle]

[Gunsmoke]

I envisage someone with a ho-hum 4 dr Sedan with a nicely restored and running chassis taking this body and swapping bodies and chassis. Then selling the Sedan on this chassis and having a much more desirable car, albeit a non-numbers matching one! Lovely lines on this car, almost allows me to ignore those awful looking headlights, which I would be replacing with the optional standard ones. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Interesting it has the ring 'coach-style' door handles.  

[edinmass]

5 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Interesting it has the ring 'coach-style' door handles.  

Very common on a Pierce of this vintage. Who wants a Pierce with bracket lights? Almost no one.

[Grimy]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Who wants a Pierce with bracket lights? Almost no one.

Those are parking lights, Ed.  The 1928 Series 81 (which this is) had very unattractive (to me) fender-mounted headlights.  On a more positive note, the coupe is quite rare among S81s, and I agree with @Gunsmoke but that market is very small.  The 81 used an aluminum head which will be near-impossible to find, as I'm sure this one will be toast, but a 1925-27 S80 iron head (available, but not cheap) will work fine.

 

BTW, only the 1928 cars, both the smaller S81 and the larger S36, used a cloisonne crest on the radiator shell.  It turned out that the crest was from the wrong branch of the Pierce family....

[3macboys]

Ed, sometimes I think that you have been playing with the big dollar stuff too long - not much is a very subjective term, to most of us 10k is a sizeable amount.  I agree with your assessment to value it as a parts cars and what are the sum of the parts worth but in this case I think that the whole is worth more than that.  There has to be some value add for a complete car.  I really like the looks as is and I think the new caretaker would do well to keep it that way and just enjoy it.  I suspect that the car will sell for 15 to 20k.  At the end of the day the last two bidders will determine the value.

[leomara]

To each his own, I never cared for the appearance of the fender-mounted headlights on the Pierce Arrow automobile.  Was that feature ever copied by any other manufacturer?

[peezduk]

18 hours ago, alsancle said:

You should post a link to the auction.  The car is located in Idaho so I assume the auction is somewhere near there?

 

Desirable body on a chassis that is tough to find parts for.  

https://hibid.com/lot/163434321/1928-pierce-arrow-model-81-rumble-seat-coup?ref=lot-list   

[Grimy]

11 minutes ago, leomara said:

To each his own, I never cared for the appearance of the fender-mounted headlights on the Pierce Arrow automobile.  Was that feature ever copied by any other manufacturer?

How about Lincoln beginning in 1936 or 1937?

[60FlatTop]

It is a lucky car that escapes the well intended disassembler for decades.

 

If I was in the market I could see it in the back corner of the garage just like that for another 3 or so more decades. I have a nice pneumatic draftman chair to sit in and just soak up the atmosphere.

[Walt G]

17 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

and just soak up the atmosphere.

Bernie, well stated! that is what more old car types need to do, that soaking up and contemplating what is in front of our eyes or at the touch of our finger tips is therapy, good vibes, karma or all the rest of that 1960s era talk. The appreciation of something that has survived , be it 100 years or 25 years and is still here serving a purpose and still looks just so fine to the eye. Let's us cope with all the normal day strife we have to put up with .

Walt

[West Peterson]

16 hours ago, edinmass said:

Very common on a Pierce of this vintage. Who wants a Pierce with bracket lights? Almost no one.

 

I MUCH prefer the bracket headlights to the freaky-looking frog-like fender lights. (hope I didn't step on any toes... just my opinion)

[West Peterson]

Interesting auction site information: It's got an inline V-6

[Grimy]

3 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

 

I MUCH prefer the bracket headlights to the freaky-looking frog-like fender lights. (hope I didn't step on any toes... just my opinion)

Opinions are like certain body parts--everybody has one!  🙂

[edinmass]

27 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

 

I MUCH prefer the bracket headlights to the freaky-looking frog-like fender lights. (hope I didn't step on any toes... just my opinion)

Poor taste……what can I say……….🤔

[edinmass]

13 hours ago, 3macboys said:

Ed, sometimes I think that you have been playing with the big dollar stuff too long - not much is a very subjective term, to most of us 10k is a sizeable amount.  I agree with your assessment to value it as a parts cars and what are the sum of the parts worth but in this case I think that the whole is worth more than that.  There has to be some value add for a complete car.  I really like the looks as is and I think the new caretaker would do well to keep it that way and just enjoy it.  I suspect that the car will sell for 15 to 20k.  At the end of the day the last two bidders will determine the value.

I would drive it as is also…….BUT……forty five years of Pierce Arrow collecting tells me it’s probably got a bad engine. And since it doesn’t run, it should be priced accordingly. Toss in bad wood……..and reality becomes a bummer. There is NO availability of parts…..none. So a cheap running sedan as a rolling parts car would be a good idea. I I have passed on THREE running and driving Series 80/81’s sedans in the last 24 months for less than 10k. There is almost no demand or market for them……..I’m not agreeing with the zero demand, it’s just a reality. If you not talented, they are a royal pain in the ass.

Edited August 15, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Walt G]

We all look at assorted cars and trucks and have an opinion - thing is to sometime try to step back 60+ years and perhaps view the styling from the era it was designed in . What the capabilities were for manufacture , cost included. "the look" depends upon the body style as well, wheel size etc. The in fender headlamps for P-A for me flow  so much better in the last half a decade that those cars were built. The raked windshield and window shapes on enclosed cars also played into the overall look factor. MAGNIFICENT cars no matter what the location of the headlamps were, year etc. . As an aside - SO far as ride - all good, the most thrilling ride I had in one was the model 66 that Austin Clark owned with the two bucket seats on the chassis and that was about it ( from new) had a scary ride around the Bridgehampton race track in that with Austin at the wheel and me "hanging on" the weight of the three rear mounted spare tires would break the tires at the rear wheels loose on curves.................. took at least two glasses of scotch at John Duck's restaurant in Southampton NY to get the color back into my knuckles and face.............then I stopped looking like an albino.

[32tatra]

In the link for the auction listing, is a utube  video of the car running.  Looks like a electric fuel pump has been added.

Edited August 15, 2023 by 32tatra (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Interesting comments. The series 81 was only built for one year before Studebaker took over. The 1928s were the last factory aluminum body Pierces and the 81 used a great deal of aluminum in the engine and elsewhere. The "streamlined" fender, light, visor and body styling was attacked at the time by the old square body Pierce defenders but it is one of my favorite designs, although I am prejudiced. The fact this is what appears to be a totally original and complete THREE WINDOW RUMBLE SEAT COUPE means it needs to be saved rather than parted or turned into a hot rod. 

[60FlatTop]

The car is nice material for dreaming but I think "the ship has sailed" on a restoration for it. I have always had an interest in the history of the hobby and the way I see it in all but very rare instances there is a common sequence. A car like that would have been saved in the 1950s, maybe slightly into the 1960s and given an amateur refurbishing. It would be passed on to the son a number of decades later. During the restoration boom in the 1980s through the 1990s the well maintained car may have been restored depending on the "new money/old money" balance. That is certainly not the rule, but it is not the exception by a long shot.

 

Right now the future for it is a crap shoot. If it sells too low it will end up an unfinished project for a long time.

[JACK M]

1 hour ago, 32tatra said:

In the link for the auction listing, is a utube  video of the car running.  Looks like a electric fuel pump has been added.

Sounds pretty good too.

[oldcarfudd]

An inline V-6 would make it unique P-A, probably worth at least a hundred grand.

[West Peterson]

12 minutes ago, E-116-YH said:

My opinion is (it's the only opinion that matters) that this 1928 Pierce Arrow Model 81 rumble seat coupe is no more a parts car then this old white touring car!

 Ed specifically said "it should be considered a parts car for valuation." That's different than calling it a parts car. It is obviously more than a parts car to all who see it.

 

It's also well worth restoring, if you don't include "worth" ($$$) in regard to what it's "worth" when you're done vs how much you have in it. This is a hobby, and hopefully someone will restore this car based on it being a hobby vs what it's worth when its finished.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

I believe one of the features of the model 81 was the extensive use of aluminum. Aluminum of the 1920s was rather primitive, and has often deteriorated over the years. The aluminum cylinder head has been mentioned. What other dodgy aluminum parts might there be? Such as connecting rods? If the rods are aluminum it might not be safe even to get the engine running without a complete rebuild.

 

If it wasn't for that the 81 would be one of my favorite Pierce Arrows. To me the big models were for the chauffeur driven limousine trade, the smaller ones much nicer for the owner driver. A coupe like that in top shape would be very desirable to own drive and enjoy, the problem is in putting it back in commission .

[Marty Roth]

8 hours ago, leomara said:

To each his own, I never cared for the appearance of the fender-mounted headlights on the Pierce Arrow automobile.  Was that feature ever copied by any other manufacturer?

Yes, Absolutely!

By 1940, essentially every domestic (and several European) car had headlights mounted within the fenders,

of course not, as of prior necessity, attached trumpet style above the fender - P-A style.

[Grimy]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Such as connecting rods? If the rods are aluminum it might not be safe even to get the engine running without a complete rebuild.

Good memory!  Yes, the 81s have aluminum rods, but iron 80 rods will interchange. 

 

When removing the cast aluminum oil pan, please know that there are also two long horizontal bolts just below the timing cover, so refrain from using a pry bar until you're sure that those two have been removed--or you'll be looking for a replacement oil pan from a 80/81.

[mikewest]

This coupe looks like a good survivor, but again the thought of a leaking side cover and the aluminum head alone is a huge turnoff. Then add new tires , paint, wiring, fuel system, exhaust and MORE and all the fun is out the window.. And it will not go  cheap.  I sold 2 model 80s a few years ago and I wasnt impressed at all with their performance.  

[West Peterson]

14 minutes ago, mikewest said:

This coupe looks like a good survivor, but again the thought of a leaking side cover and the aluminum head alone is a huge turnoff. Then add new tires , paint, wiring, fuel system, exhaust and MORE and all the fun is out the window.. 

 

But to some... that is the fun.

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, E-116-YH said:

My opinion is (it's the only opinion that matters) that this 1928 Pierce Arrow Model 81 rumble seat coupe is no more a parts car then this old white touring car!

 

If you want to criticize me, fine. Man up and post your real name, I do. And when you have owned let’s say……25 Pierce Arrows……..I might value your comments. I have owned too many to count….way more than 25……..trying to take a cheap shot……..hell it’s America today……as anonymous and hiding like a little child behind an anonymous screen name. How many pre war cars have you driven? How many tens of thousands of miles of windshield time do you have behind the wheel of early cars? Better yet…….let’s discuss it in person on Thursday……….the Pebble Beach road tour is a great place to test one’s driving skills and abilities. Looking forward to seeing you at the start. Look for the one off Rolls.

Now that I’m done with my cheap shot………read the text I posted. I know the market, and I know the platform. Someone mentioned they saw a video of it running, which is new information. With good wood (unknown) and a running engine the car will bring more money. I have 100 point cars, and original cars. A car’s cosmetic condition isn’t particularly important to me. Its uniqueness is……..and the driving experience is. I drive what I like, and what I can afford. I’m fortunate to get to work on the worlds best cars and drive them also. Made a lifetime commitment to the hobby. I feel comfortable with my interpretations and comments I made in the open, with my name attached. 
 

Edited August 16, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Funny, Ed, I took his comment as teasing, not a put down…..all in one’s perspective I guess.

 

I’ve only owned about a dozen Pierce-Arrows, and all either 8 or 12 cylinder, so no experience with the earlier cars.

 

This one is quite interesting, though, coupes these days seem almost as desirable as open cars….

[edinmass]

David, I can take it as good as I give. From people who I don’t know, and have never corresponded with, I took it the way it was written.  If he didn’t like my comments, he could’ve PM   me. I thought my answer was appropriate and moderate compared to what I wanted to write.  
 

Edited August 16, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[zepher]

The Pierce in question is a gorgeous car.

The lines are stunning and since it is a Pierce you know it is special right out of the gate.

 

The unfortunate part is that early aluminum is so fragile that most aluminum parts of this vintage are one step above the pot metal of the era.

I sure hope someone buys this car and does the car justice, cost be damned.

Even if they just get it roadworthy and drive it as is, it would be a great service to a fine automobile.

 

And, as far as the fender headlamps go, I wouldn't own a Pierce without them.
But that is just me.

Edited August 16, 2023 by zepher (see edit history)

[Grimy]

8 minutes ago, zepher said:

The Pierce in question is a gorgeous car.

The lines are stunning and since it is a Pierce you know it is special right out of the gate.

 

The unfortunate part is that early aluminum is so fragile that most aluminum parts of this vintage are one step above the pot metal of the era.

I sure hope someone buys this car and does the car justice, cost be damned.

Even if they just get it roadworthy and drive it as is, it would be a great service to a fine automobile.

 

And, as far as the fender headlamps go, I wouldn't own a Pierce without them.
But that is just me.

@zepher correct me if I'm wrong, but I( think you're talking about aluminum exposed to coolant / water.  The aluminum body panels are usually fine unless left outside for years.  Dissimilar metals in a cooling system create a battery, and the coolant-exposed aluminum (head, water outlet) in this car is the least-noble metal and therefore the sacrificial metal.  Of course, the sheet steel diverters spot welded inside the sheet steel are the first ferrous material to go, soon followed by the sheet steel cover plate as someone mentioned.  If you think this is bad, my 1918 has cast iron (block, heads), bronze (water pump), copper (radiator core and tubing from pump to jugs) and cast aluminum water manifold that delivers heated coolant from the three jugs to the top tank of the radiator.  So it's essential for us to use a sacrificial anode.  Boat guys use magnesium anodes for fresh water environments, and zinc anodes for salt water--or so they tell me-- @JACK M is our resident expert.  My 1918 came with a short cylindrical anode drilled through its length for stainless wire twisted together and looped into the overflow pipe to secure it in place.

[Restorer32]

Our shop is full of cars being restored that Ed would have called "barely parts cars with no possibility of ever being restored".

[yachtflame]

Slightly off topic but…

 I recently scrapped a half dozen Cadillac radiators. The tanks were brass and I thought the cores were copper. The scrap yard insisted that the cores were some type of brass, not copper and only paid me the brass price which was almost $1 per pound less. Can anyone clarify this for me?

Thanks.