Deadly garage collapse due to building's nearly 100-year-old age

[Crusty Trucker]

 

I posted this elsewhere on the forum, but maybe this can be food for thought for the general interest reader. Old, poorly maintained buildings can be dangerous, insecure and, as in this case, death traps. 

 

Make sure your workshop and/or storage facility is structurally sound.

In some cases, older structures may appear OK and might be a cheap solution, but, then again, they might not.

 

I don't know what it would cost, but if you're in doubt, an inspection by a qualified inspector/engineer might save your life, or at least your car(s).

 

 

[Studemax]

It didn't collapse because it was old. It collapsed because the weight of the electric cars parked within exceeded the engineered weight limit. A battery powered car weighs almost twice as a much as a similar sized gasoline powered car. If a floor will hold 100 gas cars, it will collapse if you park 100 electric cars in the same spots. This isn't rocket surgery. It is a failure to think on the part of those who were responsible for the number of cars parked in the garage. Instead - money ruled the day, and destruction was the result.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Studemax (see edit history)

[John348]

31 minutes ago, Studemax said:

It didn't collapse because it was old. It collapsed because the weight of the electric cars parked within exceeded the engineered weight limit. A battery powered car weighs almost twice as a much as a similar sized gasoline powered car. If a floor will hold 100 gas cars, it will collapse if you park 100 electric cars in the same spots. This isn't rocket surgery. It is a failure to think on the part of those who were responsible for the number of cars parked in the garage. Instead - money ruled the day, and destruction was the result.

Really, and where did you that information? Are you involved in the recovery? Do you work or live in the area? 

Edited April 21, 2023 by John348 (see edit history)

[Reynard]

Per a fast google search, in 2022, an average car weighed 4094 pounds. 1950's cars weighed around 3500 pounds (Average, saying there were more Chevrolets than Cadillacs). In the 1920's, with 15 million Model T's having been made, the average weight was much less. However that collapsed garage probably wasn't built to hold Model T's, but the heavier cars of more affluent people. It was certainly engineered with a safety factor or it wouldn't have lasted nearly 100 years. Normal structural deterioration as well as the weight load limits were ignored resulting in tragedy.

 

[arcticbuicks]

what was stopping a 7500 pound pickup truck from parking there ? or a big huge SUV with five people all over 300 lbs........plus a 389 lb driver in it ?

[TAKerry]

My son was reading a blip about it, so all I have is 3rd hand knowledge at best. But what he read was that it was built in the early 1920's and was originally supposed to hold something like 10 cars. I doubt the original design was to hold as many cars as can be squeezed into one area. Also, products deteriorate with age, rebar disintegrates,  structural joints fail etc. Probably something that was long overdue for a major overhaul. When he first told me about it being built in the '20's and in NYC, my first thought was wondering if Walt G knows about the place with his historical background?

 

No offense meant to the commentor about the ev's, but I did a quick search and it looks like the average weight of an electric car is 2500# or so. Plus it looks like a lot of suv's in the pic and although I dont know much about the ev's I dont think I see many in that pic. Dont know if you were being sarcastic (which doesnt always come across in written form) or not.

[8E45E]

6 hours ago, John348 said:

Really, and where did you that information? Are you involved in the recovery? Do you work or live in the area? 

I would like to see what the investigation report reveals before drawing any conclusions.  This is not the first time a structure designed to carry/hold vehicles has collapsed after several years of age.  Previous examples are the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis which collapsed in 2007 when it was 40 years old, and the Morandi Bridge in Genoa in Italy at just over 50 years of age in 2018.

 

Not to mention, some never even completed before they collapsed:  Quebec Bridge Disaster | The Canadian Encyclopedia

 

 West Gate Bridge disaster still haunts the men who were there, 50 years on - ABC News

 

5 Years Later, Bridge Collapse Near Florida International University Remembered – NBC 6 South Florida (nbcmiami.com)

 

Craig

[Restorer32]

I've been told by a friend who has done structural repairs on parking garages in the DC area that the garage that collapsed was not originally built as a parking garage but was converted to a parking garage, apparently without sufficient engineering input.

[billorn]

8 hours ago, Studemax said:

It didn't collapse because it was old. It collapsed because the weight of the electric cars parked within exceeded the engineered weight limit. A battery powered car weighs almost twice as a much as a similar sized gasoline powered car. If a floor will hold 100 gas cars, it will collapse if you park 100 electric cars in the same spots. This isn't rocket surgery. It is a failure to think on the part of those who were responsible for the number of cars parked in the garage. Instead - money ruled the day, and destruction was the result.

 

Oh good they've found yet another fake boogie man to blame on electric cars. I dont see any electric cars in that photo just equally heavy gas powered suvs.

[Zimm63]

9 hours ago, Studemax said:

It didn't collapse because it was old. It collapsed because the weight of the electric cars parked within exceeded the engineered weight limit. A battery powered car weighs almost twice as a much as a similar sized gasoline powered car. If a floor will hold 100 gas cars, it will collapse if you park 100 electric cars in the same spots. This isn't rocket surgery. It is a failure to think on the part of those who were responsible for the number of cars parked in the garage. Instead - money ruled the day, and destruction was the result.

"Rocket surgery"???  Is that kind of like what happened to Elon's big rocket?  Rapid unplanned disassembly?    I can see the relationship here.  

 

[charlier]

I seen a number of big city parking garages that use EVERY square foot of space to jam as many vehicles in them as possible. I would think that even parking garages with current designs and specs are overloaded when vehicles are not just parked in the spaces the design specifies. A prime example of this is the photo at the top of this post.

[60FlatTop]

9 hours ago, Studemax said:

This isn't rocket surgery.

This is the best mixed metaphor of the day! I embrace it.

 

100 year old building in NYC. I just checked, the George Washington Bridge has 8 years to go. I Googled it and made some "engineering assumptions". Should be OK.

[46 woodie]

That area of NYC is one of the oldest settled sections of the city, with most streets literally one lane built for horse and buggies. I wouldn't be too quick to put blame on anything quite yet. Several factors have come to light recently such as ignored building inspections and citations. Until I retired, I dealt with the NYC Building Department and I can tell it really needs a complete overhaul. Lot's of patronage and nepotism involved in the hiring of employees and a "do as little as possible at your job" attitude. I hope the accident will change that, but I'm not encouraged. I did hear on the news this morning that the NYFD is looking for a secluded and safe place to store any electric vehicles involved because of the unique firefighting required with electric vehicles.

[JamesR]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Previous examples are the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis which collapsed in 2007 when it was 40 years old

 

Wow, I'd forgotten about that, I'm ashamed to say. Thanks for the reminder...it's worth remembering. As I recall, that incident sparked a huge discussion about the need for proper inspection of infrastructure in the US.

 

I'm very sorry for the parking garage incident. Many prayers to the injured and the family and friends of the person who died.

[Bhigdog]

I was going to comment. Then I realized that since I actually had no facts I wouldn't comment. Then I realized neither did anyone else. So I thought I'd comment. ......................That was it..................Bob

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, JamesR said:

 

Wow, I'd forgotten about that, I'm ashamed to say. Thanks for the reminder...it's worth remembering. As I recall, that incident sparked a huge discussion about the need for proper inspection of infrastructure in the US.

I for one, won't forget that one. 

 

It was exactly one month to the date prior to its collapse I drove across it on my way home from the International Studebaker meet that was held in South Bend that year.  I drove my 1965 Commander 3600 trouble-free miles to and from South Bend.

 

Craig 

[1937hd45]

3 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

That area of NYC is one of the oldest settled sections of the city, with most streets literally one lane built for horse and buggies. I wouldn't be too quick to put blame on anything quite yet. Several factors have come to light recently such as ignored building inspections and citations. Until I retired, I dealt with the NYC Building Department and I can tell it really needs a complete overhaul. Lot's of patronage and nepotism involved in the hiring of employees and a "do as little as possible at your job" attitude. I hope the accident will change that, but I'm not encouraged. I did hear on the news this morning that the NYFD is looking for a secluded and safe place to store any electric vehicles involved because of the unique firefighting required with electric vehicles.

I bumped into a guy at our local post office that is some how involved is raising the outer edges of Manhattan so future Sea Levels won't flood the place. Great contract if you can get it. Fill will be barged down the Hudson, sounds like the project will outlive anyone starting on it. 

[Dr B]

While I have nothing to add about the collapse or the cause, I second the motion for "This isn't rocket surgery." as the best mixed metaphor of the day.  It made me chuckle!

 

Robert

[3macboys]

There was a so called news story that had an inflammatory headline along the lines of "Did an EV cause the collapse" but when you read the article the writer admitted that they had no information that was actually the case and that we will have to wait to find you the actual cause.  The actual facts in the article were about the buildings history and having been converted, when it was last inspected and when it was due again.  The article did go on to say that structural engineers are now having to consider the increased weight of EVs over comparable vehicles, basically comparing a Ford F150 Lightning to a gas powered F150.  There was actually some valid information in the article but a terrible click bait headline.  

[32tatra]

As you can see from this tax photo from 1939, this was parking garage as far back as the 1930's.  The problem is that because of the size of SUV's.  They were parked on the roof.  50 SUV's on the roof, sounds like a weight problem waiting to happen.

One of the workers at the garage, said that the poor guy who died, talked to the owners about the cracks in the walls, and supposedly, they were going to do something about it.

Sadly, they waited too long.

S

[46 woodie]

Do you see how narrow the street is in that picture? It's one way, but believe it or not they allow parking on the parking garage side of the street. Can you imagine trying to get emergency vehicles into position?

[3macboys]

3 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

Do you see how narrow the street is in that picture? It's one way, but believe it or not they allow parking on the parking garage side of the street. Can you imagine trying to get emergency vehicles into position?

In the city every surface between buildings on opposite sides of the street is in play for emergency vehicles, those pesky pedestrians will move...don't ask how I know

[Xander Wildeisen]

Might of had the radio playing to loud. 

 

[1937hd45]

 

I haven't said anything, when I saw this photo a few days ago I had no idea what floor I was looking at, or where the photo was taken from. Condolences to the family and friends for the fellow that was killed in there. 

[Xander Wildeisen]

While working in construction I have seen building owners threaten to shut projects down if city/state/national codes are enforced. These would make owners bring buildings up to current code. When you do a certain % of work to an area or building. That parking garage would never meet current code requirements. But no building that was constructed over 20 years ago would meet current code. It always comes down to something tragic happening, before something is done. And then it is to late. We all saw a condo complex in FL collapse. We have a very old inter structure in this country.

[f.f.jones]

 

 

On a serious note, here is the actual film of NEW construction collapsing due to poor design, not age or neglect. 

The Tacoma Narrows bridge lasted four months. Other than one car, the only loss of life was Tubby, a dog, who was too traumatized at the time to be rescued. neither were ever found.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by f.f.jones (see edit history)

[Crusty Trucker]

12 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

 

100 year old building in NYC. I just checked, the George Washington Bridge has 8 years to go. I Googled it and made some "engineering assumptions". Should be OK.

 

 

How's the Brooklyn Bridge doing? Built in 1883, it's 130 years old! Can we assume it's OK, too?

 

[Studemax]

Any proof I post would be immediately pooh-poohed by the haters here.

I stand by my post - 100%.

Also, glad some of you got a chuckle out of it.

[Billy Kingsley]

I remember a few years back the parking garage at the Poughkeepsie Galleria shopping mall collapsed due to the weight of snow piled on to it. They rebuilt it but don't let cars park on the top level in that area.

[joe_padavano]

9 hours ago, f.f.jones said:

 

 

On a serious note, here is the actual film of NEW construction collapsing due to poor design, not age or neglect. 

The Tacoma Narrows bridge lasted four months. Other than one car, the only loss of life was Tubby, a dog, who was too traumatized at the time to be rescued. neither were ever found.

 

 

 

As I'm sure you know, the problem with the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was the fact that no one understood the phenomenon of aerodynamic flutter as it applies structures. Airplane designers were well aware of the issue, but it wasn't something civil engineers normally considered. This was the same reason why the Hancock building in Boston kept popping out windows.

[TAKerry]

So many reasons that BIG structures fail due to engineering mistakes, construction short cuts, and just simply pushing things to the limit. Lots of BIG structures survive and are safe as well. 

 

I think this parking garage failed because it was loaded beyond its limit, and lack of maintenance. An old structure will last for its intended purpose if it is used correctly and well maintained.

[John348]

11 hours ago, Studemax said:

Any proof I post would be immediately pooh-poohed by the haters here.

I stand by my post - 100%.

Also, glad some of you got a chuckle out of it.

I can only speak for myself, it's really not nice to accuse people of being a "haters" just because they asked to see of what you based your statement on, then you you refuse to produce it because it will be "pooh-poohed on"? If you have some legitimate facts just present them. Nobody hates you, what's that all about?  

 

3macboysboys researched a source to the EV claim, and the author admits he had no information, it was click bait, it happens

 

21 hours ago, 3macboys said:

There was a so called news story that had an inflammatory headline along the lines of "Did an EV cause the collapse" but when you read the article the writer admitted that they had no information that was actually the case and that we will have to wait to find you the actual cause.  The actual facts in the article were about the buildings history and having been converted, when it was last inspected and when it was due again.  The article did go on to say that structural engineers are now having to consider the increased weight of EVs over comparable vehicles, basically comparing a Ford F150 Lightning to a gas powered F150.  There was actually some valid information in the article but a terrible click bait headline.  

 

Just to point out, that area of Manhattan had some major man made tremors on 9/11/01 that possibly could have caused structural damage that was undetected at the time? Could this have been a residual cause or possible contributing cause? I don't know,  but then again none of us do either.  I was in close proximity to the 9/11 site and I am now starting to show some major effects as well, same with the crew I was working with 20 years later so why can't a building? 

 

I was born and raised in NYC (The Bronx) I currently now live most of the year on Long Island about 25 miles from where garage collapse occurred, and my entire career of 40+ years I worked as an IBEW electrician in NYC, and most of that was as Supervision in high rise commercial construction, and The Javits Convention Center. The NYC DOB is not going to randomly inspect a building because of age, unless there is an open permit or a complaint, considering there is a fatality at this event that information will come out. 

 

While I do see EV's there are not a lot of them around in the greater metro area. I just purchased a new car my wife a few weeks ago, and I did intend to purchase an EV, but there was a waiting list for what I wanted and I did not look of the EV Mustang (I only buy American Made cars) While around they are not abundant, the nice ones anyway. The ugly small Tesla's are, they are not my taste.    

 

On another note the original Yankee Stadium would have 100 years old this coming Tuesday, it was closed in 2003.  I was involved in putting together an estimate for the electrical decommission and conversion to temporary power and maintenance of that power. I was assigned to go on  the walk through for the estimate and I was thrilled! I was there hundreds of times as spectator and even worked there as an extra on the U2 and Pink Floyd concerts, but now I was going see the building from with in. The building was beyond repair! It was pointed out that the building where the upper deck was just not safe. There were massive structural cracks in the upper deck that were corrected over the years, but it was the point where that it would it could not be repaired any more. I could spin that the cracks in the upper deck were caused because the fans are fatter 90's then they were in the 50's, which is true, but.....    

 

Just keep an open mind, just because people disagree they are not haters 

 

   

[joe_padavano]

23 hours ago, TAKerry said:

So many reasons that BIG structures fail due to engineering mistakes, construction short cuts, and just simply pushing things to the limit.

There's a great book covering this topic called "To Engineer is Human" by Henry Petroski. In many cases, the problems are not caused by engineering but by corner cutting that doesn't follow the engineering direction. The fatal skybridge collapse at the Kansas City Hyatt Regency is a classic example of how the builders disregarded the engineering direction to save a few bucks and caused 114 deaths as a result.

[Walt G]

Joe, thank you for the mention of that book, I will be seeking a copy!

Walt

[TAKerry]

As a builder, one of my favorite programs to watch is Engineering catastophy's. Not for the morbid factor but to see what crazy stuff is built and why they fail. 

[ply33]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

There's a great book covering this topic called "To Engineer is Human" by Henry Petroski. In many cases, the problems are not caused by engineering but by corner cutting that doesn't follow the engineering direction. The fatal skybridge collapse at the Kansas City Hyatt Regency is a classic example of how the builders disregarded the engineering direction to save a few bucks and caused 114 deaths as a result.

I have a copy of that book and as an engineer found it fascinating. I never really recommended it to non-engineers but thinking back on it I probably should. Thank you for bringing it up!

 

It was printed a number of years ago and I doubt that it had a large print run. I wonder how available it is now. . .

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, ply33 said:

I have a copy of that book and as an engineer found it fascinating. I never really recommended it to non-engineers but thinking back on it I probably should. Thank you for bringing it up!

 

It was printed a number of years ago and I doubt that it had a large print run. I wonder how available it is now. . .

Under $17 on Amazon.

[nat]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:33 PM, Crusty Trucker said:

How's the Brooklyn Bridge doing? Built in 1883, it's 130 years old! Can we assume it's OK, too?

            Here's a good read on that subject.

[John_S_in_Penna]

6 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

The fatal skybridge collapse at the Kansas City Hyatt Regency is a classic example of how the builders disregarded the engineering direction to save a few bucks... 

The motive that caused that hotel disaster wasn't merely to save money.

They were honest mistakes.  From what I have read in engineering

circles, one idea of the steel detailer to improve constructibility

unwittingly put more load on the threaded hanger rods.  And before that,

the  engineer or architect had designed built-up box beams by welding two steel

channels together, which assembly behaved in a way he didn't anticipate.  

 

So it wasn't a case of sneaking anything by, to keep more money

for himself.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Dr B]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:33 PM, Crusty Trucker said:

 

 

How's the Brooklyn Bridge doing? Built in 1883, it's 130 years old! Can we assume it's OK, too?

 

 

If anyone wants to read a spectacular book about the building of the Brooklyn bridge, they should read "The Great Bridge" by David McCullough (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Bridge_(book)).  The Brooklyn bridge was designed by Washington Roebling, the son of John Roebling.  Roebling made sure that bridge was WAY over engineered.  He also made sure that Tammany Hall corruption did not diminish the quality of the bridge during construction.

 

Robert