Looking to buy advice

[mathgirl]

We are looking for a weekend driver.  We aren't sure what the best option would be.  Something restored mostly original or something "hot rodded".  We would like to have modern updates like disc brakes and a off body restoration eventually or one that has already been done.

 

One major concern is getting parts.  We would like something like a Hudson or Packard.  But how available are parts for something like that?

 

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

[joe_padavano]

The first piece of advice is that most "restored" cars you'll find for sale today are crap. Flippers who've watched too many cable shows think they can get away with a rattle can "rebuild" and foist it off on an unsuspecting buyer for big bucks. Even cars that have been disassembled and put back together usually only have about half the original fasteners installed.

 

Second, very, VERY few people who install "upgrades" have any clue as to what they're doing. Even the vendors for aftermarket disk brake kits don't really understand the issues of balancing brake force or ensuring the system works under the full range of operating conditions. The factory brakes have been engineered and, more importantly, tested under all conceivable operating conditions for the vehicle - empty, fully loaded, new brakes, worn brakes, dry pavement, sand, rain, and snow. No aftermarket kit has a fraction of that engineering and test behind it. If you frequent on-line forums, you'll be amazed at the number of posts asking why someone's car with new, "upgraded" four wheel disc brakes now stops worse than it did before the conversion. Don't get me wrong, properly designed and installed disc brakes will always stop better than drums. The problem is that few of these conversions are properly designed, and even fewer are properly installed.

 

Finally, learn as much as you can about the car you're interested in BEFORE you start the search and buying process. Join the appropriate club. Go to shows. Talk to experts. Be an informed buyer.

 

Good luck.

[Walt G]

We need to know from mathgirl what era Hudson or Packard she wants? Pre WWII or Post WWII? 6 or 8 culinder? Body style? wheelbase? MORE INFORMATION to let us help you out., PLEASE!

I can not agree with you Joe that " most "restored" cars you'll find for sale today are crap." Many are , BUT, there are individual sellers as well as some great dealers that have quality machinery for sale, some of those dealers are active here on the forums and contribute sage advice.

My advice is to join the club(s) of the cars that you find attractive, then read what they have to say, find out who specializes in a particular year,model etc that you like for the club and contact them. Education is the answer.

[CarlLaFong]

The idea that slapping a set of disc brakes on an old clunk will transform it into a Ferrari is rampant and largely false. Most of the cars that I grew up with could be thrown into a full four wheel skid. Will disc brakes somehow do better? My last Model A would lock up all four with it's mechanical drums. I've driven thousands of miles on the dreaded soCal freeways and never had a problem as far as brakes go. Only fade I ever had was in the mountains

[Mark Gregush]

There are many cars on the market that I call "Ice Cream" restorations. Looks great on the outside, but not so good under the hood, with maybe the engine getting rebuilt/overhauled consisting of rings and valve job if even that. Good enough for getting ice cream, going to a local car show or parade once a year. Once you figure out which car you want, start doing the research on what parts you can buy. Lots of times that information is as close as your fingertips, sometimes it's not.

[60FlatTop]

For $45 you can join the AACA. Another $20 or so will cover your local chapter dues. Check out the local activity in the Hudson or Packard clubs. It won't be much with the plague going on but check. Attend all the meetings and events you can.

 

Use all the resources of your clubs to help you buy the very best car you can. The members know all the cars out there, even the so called "finds" they knew about all the time.

Associating with them will help you define the car you want. Sometimes it is hard to pinpoint one's motivation. I have been in conversations where I walked away and wondered why a person didn't just go out and buy a Great Gatsby costume. It seemed like that was the relationship between them and the car.

 

The clubs are your best resource. And Joe is right. To find a good restored car you have to look at 100 to find a good one unless you are real lucky.

 

I am an impulse buyer, myself. And rarely take my own advice. I don't "marry" a car and always estimate my loses up front in case I tell myself a lot of lies during the excitement of the purchase.

[61polara]

Parts availability is not too bad for mechanical parts, but trim parts are more difficult.  What you will find to be the most difficult parts to find or even identify are those used in "upgrades".  You need to know exactly what parts and part numbers were used because no parts store has any way to look up those parts for replacement.  Knowing that it has Chevy disc brakes doesn't get you anywhere.

 

[TerryB]

Cars made by the big three, Ford, GM and Chrysler usually have the best aftermarket parts support.  Even then certain models from each manufacturer will be outliers to that rule.  Corvettes, 55-57 Chevy, 55-57 Thunderbirds, Model A fords and virtually any car from the muscle era will have plenty of spare parts support.

[joe_padavano]

14 minutes ago, Walt G said:

I can not agree with you Joe that " most "restored" cars you'll find for sale today are crap."

 

Let's just say that most you'll find at dealers and at auctions and and on line are crap. And many private sellers are getting rid of fright pigs that they unwittingly bought for too  much money at big name auctions.

 

Heck, just peruse the Oldsmobiles offered at Mecum Kissimmee. There are a handful of blue chip cars. The rest are poorly-done clones with crappy body and paint and misleading descriptions.

[60FlatTop]

In the 1990's I had a very good side business working only on restored or previously repaired cars, no actual restoration work at all. I was always busy making the shiny cars Steer, Start, and Stop. I think it may be worse today with the popularity of re-engineered upgrades.

And over the counter kits- "Welcome. Can I take your order, please?"

[mathgirl]

48 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

The first piece of advice is that most "restored" cars you'll find for sale today are crap. Flippers who've watched too many cable shows think they can get away with a rattle can "rebuild" and foist it off on an unsuspecting buyer for big bucks. Even cars that have been disassembled and put back together usually only have about half the original fasteners installed.

 

Second, very, VERY few people who install "upgrades" have any clue as to what they're doing. Even the vendors for aftermarket disk brake kits don't really understand the issues of balancing brake force or ensuring the system works under the full range of operating conditions. The factory brakes have been engineered and, more importantly, tested under all conceivable operating conditions for the vehicle - empty, fully loaded, new brakes, worn brakes, dry pavement, sand, rain, and snow. No aftermarket kit has a fraction of that engineering and test behind it. If you frequent on-line forums, you'll be amazed at the number of posts asking why someone's car with new, "upgraded" four wheel disc brakes now stops worse than it did before the conversion. Don't get me wrong, properly designed and installed disc brakes will always stop better than drums. The problem is that few of these conversions are properly designed, and even fewer are properly installed.

 

Finally, learn as much as you can about the car you're interested in BEFORE you start the search and buying process. Join the appropriate club. Go to shows. Talk to experts. Be an informed buyer.

 

Good luck.

This was very helpful!  Thanks!

[mathgirl]

25 minutes ago, Walt G said:

We need to know from mathgirl what era Hudson or Packard she wants? Pre WWII or Post WWII? 6 or 8 culinder? Body style? wheelbase? MORE INFORMATION to let us help you out., PLEASE!

I can not agree with you Joe that " most "restored" cars you'll find for sale today are crap." Many are , BUT, there are individual sellers as well as some great dealers that have quality machinery for sale, some of those dealers are active here on the forums and contribute sage advice.

My advice is to join the club(s) of the cars that you find attractive, then read what they have to say, find out who specializes in a particular year,model etc that you like for the club and contact them. Education is the answer.

Post WWII is what we are interest in.  As far as the other particulars, we haven't made any decisions on that.  I definitely want to be educated first and thought this would be a good place to start.

[John_S_in_Penna]

39 minutes ago, Walt G said:

We need to know from mathgirl what era Hudson or Packard she wants.  Pre WWII or Post WWII?...

 

Walt Gosden, above, has especially good advice.

He's too modest to promote his qualifications, but he

is a nationally known automotive researcher and writer,

and has experience especially with pre-war cars.

 

Mathgirl, the hobby can be affordable and very fun!

Don't let the abundance of cautions make you fearful

or turn you and your family away.  With others above,

I agree that keeping your car as it was built from the 

factory will keep you safe and give you a good experience.

 

Some more pertinent questions:

---In what state do you live?  We might be able to

recommend cars closer to you.

---Do you have plenty of country roads around you, or are

you surrounded by superhighways?  Cars from the mid-1950's

and later are fine for most of today's highways;  pre-war cars

usually aren't.  Note that Hudson lasted until 1957;

Packard until 1958.

---Is your car budget $10,000 to $20,000--perfect for a

postwar car--or much higher?  Plenty of cars are affordable,

and asking prices may be much more than a car will sell for.

If you get a car that's not "popular" and not a convertible,

it will be just as good but less expensive.

---Off-the-frame restorations cost $100,000 or more, so

for your first car, don't dive that deeply.  However, one

already restored will not recoup that cost and will likely

cost considerably less than the restoration.

 

A world of fun awaits you and your family!

Edited January 7, 2022 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[George Smolinski]

1 hour ago, mathgirl said:

We would like to have modern updates like disc brakes

Here's what I told my son when he wanted to upgrade his 1966 Impala. It had a 550hp 468, T400, 2500 stall, and 3:73 posi. A nice street machine. I told him that if the difference in stopping distance between a good drum brake system compared to adding front discs to the car would be enough to avoid a crash, then you're driving too fast or too crazy. We never did put discs on, but we had a heluvalot of fun with the car.

[F&J]

1 hour ago, mathgirl said:

We are looking for a weekend driver.  We aren't sure what the best option would be.  Something restored mostly original or something "hot rodded". 

You need to understand what type of roads and traffic you will want to drive on.  The biggest buyer mistake I have seen in the last few decades, is people often impulse buy by ''the styling of the car",  but never knew the car could not keep up with impatient people on the roads, and even if the car can be forced to go 55-60 on secondary roads, it ends up not being any fun at all. So most of these cars never get driven, or get resold.

 

My best advice is if you find a car available within driving distance, have the seller drive you on the types of roads you prefer, and see if it can be any fun at those speeds. 

 

.

[mathgirl]

We deal in antique tractors and run in to many of the same problems with someone who has worked on them.  They either don't care enough to do a good job or they don't know what they are doing.

 

Also, is the market on antique cars more expensive than they used to be?  That is the case for antique tractors right now.

[carbking]

Mathgirl - I cannot help you with parts availability on Hudson or Packard (other than carburetor parts   ).

 

There are 3 reasons to add disc brakes to a post-WWII car that does not have them.

 

(1) you will be pulling a 40 foot camping trailer in the mountains.

(2) you will be often crossing a "low water bridge" (in other words, the road travels through the body of water, and the brakes get wet)

(3) if you truly believe they will make you sleep better at night

 

Jon

[mobileparts]

Math girl,

First, what makes you Mathgirl ???

 

Joe Padavano, who responded to you above,   is one of the most brilliant 

Individuals on planet Earth. He is also , perhaps, the most knowledgeable person in the Antique and Classic  Car Hobby , period.... He doesn't flaunt it (and doesn't have to), but he is a graduate of M I T !!!

 

I have been friends with Joe P. Forever --- and I majored in Math at the University of  Pennsylvania.... and have parlayed my ability with numbers, a phenomenal recall capability, GOD-given talents, to become the number one parts man for Antique and Classic cars in this solar system !!!

 

Secondly, Good Luck with the quest... Of course, if you tell someone at HERSHEY,  that you have a 1920s or 1930s Packard with Disc Brakes, you might be responsible for a Heart Attack (LOL) !!!

 

Ask away right here --- This is the Number # 1 Website on Planet Earth....

Yours, Craig....

[Walt G]

Thanks John , I view myself as just another old car guy who likes to look up history and write stories that are based on fact not guesses . For decades people have been kind to me by sharing information, parts, memories etc so I am just trying to get even a bit in that respect .🙂

[mathgirl]

We do have highways around here that we would mostly likely be driving on.  That's why we were thinking a 50s model would be good.  We like the style of the 50s as well.  

[Matt Harwood]

I tell most of the first time buyers I work with this: an old car is nothing like a new car. It will drive differently, it will have a different set of needs, and it will require you to adjust to it, not the other way around. Modifying an old car simply makes an old car that will go faster, but doesn't usually eliminate any of the other old car things--it still won't be like a new Toyota.

 

What will happen is that it will break down at a time and place that's inconvenient. It will fail to start when you want to use it some sunny afternoon. It will leak on your floor. It will feel vulnerable if you take it on the highway and try to drive it at modern highway speeds. It will need parts that are not sold at the local AutoZone. Those are the realities of any old car.

 

On the other hand, if you drive it within its limits on quiet roads away from heavy traffic and high speeds, it will be delightful. If you buy a good one and/or pay your mechanic sufficient sums of money to make it right, it will be dependable and fun. But it will always be slower, less safe, less comfortable, and less reliable than a modern car. Period. If you can't live with that, I would respectfully suggest something like a late-model Mustang convertible or a Plymouth Prowler.

 

The biggest problem I face when selling old cars is managing expectations. Without any frame of reference, it's easy to think old cars are just like modern cars and then the reality is disappointing and frustrating. Going in with your eyes open will increase your chances of getting what you expect and thereby improve your experience.

[mathgirl]

Also to answer a couple other questions.  I'm in NC.

 

And what makes me mathgirl is I teach math at a local university.  I've always loved math. 

[MCHinson]

Where in NC? A local NC Region AACA Chapter would be a good place to meet some people in your area who can help you with some first hand experiencee with different antique cars and perhaps help you find the perfect antique car for you, which may or may not be what you first thought was going to be the car for you. As soon as I know where you are, I can direct you to an AACA Chapter near you. 

[mathgirl]

Just now, MCHinson said:

Where in NC? A local NC Region AACA Chapter would be a good place to meet some people in your area who can help you with some first hand experiencee with different antique cars and perhaps help you find the perfect antique car for you, which may or may not be what you first thought was going to be the car for you. As soon as I know where you are, I can direct you to an AACA Chapter near you. 

We live near Winston Salem.

[MCHinson]

Old Salem Chapter website: http://dkuis.com/osc/why/

Edited January 7, 2022 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Welcome to the forum. Not much to add, some pretty good advice. If you are already in the world of antiques-via tractors- then you have some idea of what you are getting into, not that its a bad thing.

 

I think the prices of old cars may be on the slight rise. When the pandy hit I think a lot of people spent time working on their stuff, demand increased for parts and supply's and people started selling off excess cars. Drove the price up a bit. I have been looking at model A's for the last several years and I think the prices for those particular cars has indeed gone up a bit. 

 

The AACA is devoted to keeping old cars original so not a lot of love when modifications are mentioned here. Although my cars are new compared to most here I too follow that philosophy. I dont get the put a modern drive train in the car so it will run like a new car. May as well buy a new car! 

 

Joining one or several specific marque clubs is a great idea. Trying a car 'on for size' before spending too much time in the search is a good idea also. May not be that much of an issue with a post war car. My brother had his mind set on a Model A. Joined the clubs, researched and looked for a couple of years. He finally loaded up his check book and went to a meet looking to buy. For the first time he actually got behind the wheel of one. Then realized he was too big to operate the car comfortably which was a great disappointment. 

 

There is a section in this forum - not my car for sale- where a lot of interesting stuff is posted. Keep an eye there. Also, dont plan on finding one in your town. The right car may be on the opposite end of the country.

[avgwarhawk]

Also, consider what experience you are looking for in a older car.  Wind in the hair convertible?  Bias ply feeling every nook and cranny in the road 40/50's vehicle?  For me, the experience I wanted was a 50's era bias ply running manual transmission zero amenities car.  I found it.  I enjoy every minute of the simpler vehicle of the times even if I'm sweating to death, rowing through the gears, leaning on the manual drum brakes, and squealing bias ply tire on the corners.    But hey, I look good doing it.   

Edited January 7, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

opinionated advice (there, you've been warned):

Packards and Hudsons are best kept stock.  If you want a rod, get a Chevy or Ford.

Disc brakes will help fade and little else - don't worry about not having them unless you drive down mountains a lot.

The major Hudson change is the 1948 step-down design.  The 46-47 cars are attractively styled but are pre-war technology.

The major Packard change is the 55-56 V8 vs. the rest.  Packard mechanical parts are rarely a problem.  Trim can be hard to find.  The Ultramatic transmissions from mid-49 on and the 55-56 Torsion-Level suspension are systems that only a few are familiar with fixing.

Closed cars of both makes are readily available at reasonable prices.

Happy hunting!

[mathgirl]

3 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

opinionated advice (there, you've been warned):

Packards and Hudsons are best kept stock.  If you want a rod, get a Chevy or Ford.

Disc brakes will help fade and little else - don't worry about not having them unless you drive down mountains a lot.

The major Hudson change is the 1948 step-down design.  The 46-47 cars are attractively styled but are pre-war technology.

The major Packard change is the 55-56 V8 vs. the rest.  Packard mechanical parts are rarely a problem.  Trim can be hard to find.  The Ultramatic transmissions from mid-49 on and the 55-56 Torsion-Level suspension are systems that only a few are familiar with fixing.

Closed cars of both makes are readily available at reasonable prices.

Happy hunting!

Very informative!  Thanks.

[RansomEli]

Mathgirl, 

 

I'm adding my 2 cents worth.

 

By the way, I've got a BA in Applied Mathematics (not that it has helped me with antique cars).

 

If you're looking for a 50's car, I can give you some personal observations. I owned a 1956 Olds 4-door sedan for several years. A thoroughly great car to drive and maintain. Great '50s styling. Easily went 65mph on the freeway and the drum brakes worked very well. Tune-up parts are easy to get. 

 

You can get a 4-door sedan relatively cheap. A convertible will cost 3 times more.  But at least you can get into the game and then decide what you really want. 

 

All the advice given above is great. You might want to join the AACA and peruse several car-related websites. Ask lots of questions and realize that sometimes you will get answers that are not right. Don't hot rod - just buy something a bit newer that has all you want. 

 

The best way to buy a car is through the club of the marque you are interested in. Get to know the people in the club and who sells the good cars and who sells the flippers. Buy a car that has a history in the club. You may pay more but you will get a known legacy.

 

Keep us posted and let us know what you buy. I'll bet it will be something you never planned on getting at a higher price than you wanted to pay. 

 

But you'll be really happy with the purchase.

 

Written by someone who has been there and done that.

[hidden_hunter]

One thing to be wary about when people have “upgraded” various components is that your parts availability maybe worse than it otherwise would be with that marque.

 

e.g has someone frankensteined a bunch of parts with some custom fab to make it fit

 

Properly adjusted the mechanical drums on the rear wheels only have no problem stopping my 4500lbs 1922 Cadillac. They were rubbish when I first got the car but persevering we got them working as they should. 
 

ABS would probably add more safety than disc brakes in most circumstances I would have thought. No idea if anyone has worked out how to retrofit it  

Edited January 8, 2022 by hidden_hunter (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

First off, the term “upgrade” is incredibly subjective.  
 

But to me, the biggest concern about modified vehicles is that there is no manual to go by when you have a problem.  Original and properly restored vehicles were designed by engineers and have manuals and guides that can be followed.  Personally, I can’t really troubleshoot,  I don’t have that skill set.  But, I can follow instruction when it’s laid out before me.

[Borough Essex]

Lots of great advice above and carbking is spot on about disc brakes. From what you have said, a stepdown Hudson sedan will fit the bill and I can't see the point of disc brakes. Parts (except trim/decorative stuff) should not a problem. Join the Hudson Club (https://hetclub.org) and start researching (including the problem areas to be aware of). Don't rush in and buy the first one you see. I'm sure a similar era Packard would be great too, but I stick to my Hudson addiction:)

[Grimy]

I agree with the gist of the advice you've been getting but will point out that overdrive-equipped post-war cars will allow you to cruise at 60-65 mph--assuming that you're willing to drive a stick shift.  On some cars, OD was an option, not standard.  If you need or prefer an automatic, consider a 1949 or newer Olds or Cadillac OHV V-8.  The Cads with 2-barrel carbs (through 1951? I think the first 4-barrel was 1952 but I'm not sure) are extremely fuel efficient for their size and can deliver 20 mpg on the road.

 

Do you need/want power steering?  If so, check interesting marques for when power steering was first available.  If you're not used to unpowered steering, remember to not turn the wheel unless the car is moving--even very slow movement forward or backward makes steering *much* easier.

[Graham Man]

Math girl,

   Here is your car, 1965 Mustang 289 convertible in an interesting stock color (stay away from red, orange and white; they are boring), with optional wire wheel covers (no custom wheels).

Doing the math...

      Every kid in the school will love your car

      Every Ford dealership will work on it

      Cruses easily down the road at traffic speed in stock form

      Drives reasonably well, a 289 should have front disk brakes?

      Great body design, keep it for 5 years or 50 years if it is a good car, you will not loose a cent

      All the parts are readily available

      This will always be a collectable car, they are hard to find in stock form.

 

All of the advice above is still applicable, finding a good convertible is difficult, many of these cars were butchered together in the 70's

 

[72caddy]

Graham man nailed it. Any mid to late 60’s major car brand vehicle would work. The aftermarket support, part availability, good at today’s road speeds, and some creature comforts like AC.

[bryankazmer]

Mid to late 60's and Hudson or Packard don't go together well.

 

I think you are indirectly also pointing out that performance declines rapidly as early pollution controls are introduced in the early to mid 70's.  Even after taking into account the change from gross to net horsepower.

[mathgirl]

Thanks for all the replies!  We would like something with overhead valves.  When did Hudson start those?  I see Packard didn't have overhead valves until 1955.  But I couldn't find out when Hudson did.  I also read that Oldsmobile, Buick and some other other models had overhead valves late 40s early 50s.  We would also like the overdrive so it could be easily drove on the highway.  Given all that any suggestions for models and years of cars that would fit that description? 

[MCHinson]

Basically any year Buick Century would give you a highway capable car with overhead valves.

[Bloo]

Hudson, at least in the postwar era, never had an overhead valve engine completely of their own design. Their own 308 flathead six was fairly dominant in NASCAR in the early 50s. Hudson's first postwar OHV engine was the outsourced Packard V8, after merging with Nash/Kelvnator to become American Motors. The Packard deal did not last long, probably less than a year, so technically the first postwar OHV "Hudson" engine was the Nash/Hudson 287/327 V8 that replaced the Packard V8. That would have been 1956 or 1957. The Hudson "stepdown" bodies were gone by then, and Hudsons shared a Nash designed body. A year later the Hudson and Nash nameplates disappeared entirely.

 

You won't find overdrive in GM cars in the prewar or early postwar eras. They didn't offer it. Everyone else did. Maybe because it was a Chrysler design and Borg Warner produced. Chevrolet didn't even offer overdrive until 1955. Pontiac 1962, Cadillac never, and I'm not sure about the rest. You can find highway-appropriate gearing in many early postwar GM cars if they have Hydra-Matic. It wasn't technically overdrive, but it had 4 gears instead of three, and that allows a taller high gear.

 

Overhead valves were not a clear advantage until the horsepower race started heating up in the early 50s. Most manufacturers shunned them through the 30s and 40s except Chevrolet and Buick, who had been pushing the overhead valve idea since the horseless carriage era. They couldn't really just stop without losing face. They were probably really glad they hadn't stopped when the early 50s rolled around.

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)