edinmass Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 "I just want a nice driver. It will never be shown" is one of the biggest lies I have ever been told. I have told MUCH bigger lies than that.........but only to the ladies! 😇 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I bet they just laughed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, SC38DLS said: I bet they just laughed! “You’d be perfect if you weren’t a perfectionist.” 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTR Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, edinmass said: I have told MUCH bigger lies than that.........but only to the ladies! 😇 With all due respect and I know a lot of (most ?) people don't think much of it, but I'm not sure it's a good merit to admit, let alone publicly brag, about being a liar or even less than honest ? OTOH, I've been "accused"(?) of being "too honest"(whatever that’s supposed mean or be quantified ?) on more than few occasion, ... even by ladies. Edited January 25, 2021 by TTR (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 My past has ingrained an number of Steve Facts. Chief among them: Anybody that says they never lie is a liar. Now, that's just me of course. (I bet a few of you will be glad when I'm cleared to go back to work). LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Having discrimination used to be a good thing. Discernment is a gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHuDWah Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 hours ago, Brass is Best said: The point of this hobby is to put things back as they were. I like hot rods. I have owned several. But when you are building a hot rod and have a problem making a part work you just get another part. Or you modify what you have. There are no rules. It is the wild west. I like pretty much all cars, whether rodded or restored. Although the resulting car differs, building a hot rod can be a pursuit of perfection per your definition, just like a restoration can be. I realize the focus of this forum is restoration, but you brought up hot rods, implying their builders cannot be perfectionists. My point is that is untrue. As to rules, there is one - that the hot rod be safe, something the NSRA vigorously promotes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 You can have perfectionists in any field. Personally am more of the "make it work well". Is no way I'd put a DA-6 AC compressor in any car. To build a car exactly as it left the factory must include factory defects. Might be interesting to list the fixes (usually found in TSBs for a post-war car) that the owners were never told about. Why a '72 Parts manual may be useless for proof of how a 1970 car was built. These (are full) are for 1988-1991 Buicks (include Reatta). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cured Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 18 hours ago, Larry Schramm said: If you do not have the time to do it right the first time, where are you going to find the time to fix it a second time? I agree that the answer to that question is almost never. However right doesn’t necessarily mean perfect. Perfection as a concept is only suitable for discussions involving theology IMO. A famous boot maker (M. L. Leddy) stated of his craft. “We will never reject excellence while seeking perfection.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Wahlberg Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 The shop in which I did a lot of restoration work was known for turning out cars that were as close to perfect as possible, yet the owner claimed that we produced excellent drivers, not show cars. That was because so many of the customers stated they wanted a car to drive.....to shows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 So what does all this have to do with 'How the Virus Has Changed the Collector Car World?' 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Nothing is perfect, but striving for perfection, should be the goal. There is a lot of love and dedication in what we do, and if one project doesn't get the nod from us, we try it on the next. It's a learning curve. Look at what Roger Zimmerman does with cars both real and in scale. He takes his work to a new art form. This also includes Ted with the '32 Olds, or anyone else on this forum who shares their work with us. This is a great place for information, and thank God for folks who believe of perfection. It's all good! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Guess we don't know yet, prices of collector cars seem to be fluctuating wildly, people are beginning to come out again just as infection numbers are getting worse. And now they are saying two shots may not be enough. And yet more government decrees just as many incentives are running out. OTOH a different party now controls the printing presses so who nose. Have to remember that older people have the bulk of disposable income these days (for the first time being on a fixed income is a good thing) and so exert excessive influence on collector car prices. Looks like '21 is just going to be more of the same (just are not being told not to buy masks...). More things on-line and less shows. Will more malls go bust ? Probably, after all have to get along on a tenth of a percent lower population. Are prices going up ? Probably of new products particularly if the new "Buy American" effort takes off. Someone is going to need to pay for reopening the factories. Is like starting a car that has been sitting for a few years: it is all there but needs A Lot of maintenance. So all I know is that the future will probably be different from anything we can imagine. Don't forget we are now five years past Back to the Future Part II 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, CHuDWah said: I like pretty much all cars, whether rodded or restored. Although the resulting car differs, building a hot rod can be a pursuit of perfection per your definition, just like a restoration can be. I realize the focus of this forum is restoration, but you brought up hot rods, implying their builders cannot be perfectionists. My point is that is untrue. As to rules, there is one - that the hot rod be safe, something the NSRA vigorously promotes. Well I was speaking in the context of the AACA. If I wanted to talk about Hot Rods I would be on the HAMB. I have seen tens of thousands of cars in my life. But I have never seen a perfect car anywhere. the idea of a perfect car is an illusion. Anyone who says their car is perfect is a liar. The most we can do is chase perfection and hope to come close. That is perhaps the fun for some. To chase perfection. Others could care less. But having perfectionists among us is a good thing. They push us all to be better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 25 minutes ago, padgett said: Have to remember that older people have the bulk of disposable income these days (for the first time being on a fixed income is a good thing) and so exert excessive influence on collector car prices. Looks like '21 is just going to be more of the same (just are not being told not to buy masks...). More things on-line and less shows. Will more malls go bust ? Probably, after all have to get along on a tenth of a percent lower population. Are prices going up ? Probably of new products particularly if the new "Buy American" effort takes off. Someone is going to need to pay for reopening the factories. Is like starting a car that has been sitting for a few I'm worried about TAXES going up! The money for those stimulus checks have to be replenished. Craig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Naaah, just crank up the printing presses, been an American tradition for over 150 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, 8E45E said: I'm worried about TAXES going up! The money for those stimulus checks have to be replenished. Craig With all the plans and freebees as well as eliminating alot of high paying jobs and sending companies over seas, taxes are going to soar on everything from gas to property. Restructuring of capital gains taxes make it sound like we could all get taxed on the perceived value of our property (not property tax but actual capital gains tax ) and any capital gain on stocks even though you haven't sold the stock. Now I can see that moving on to our old cars that have a perceived value, wether accurate or not, so we will get to pay a capital gains tax on our cars as well. Once the rich start relocating and people find out that the new rich are the middle and lower middle class, then eventually upper poor class, they will finally realize we weren't all crazy when we said we told you so. Anyone that believes only the rich would pay more in taxes was dense to say the least. Unfortunately their choices affect everyone. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, padgett said: Naaah, just crank up the printing presses, been an American tradition for over 150 years Hold on to your underwear........you ain’t seen nothing yet. Inflation is a certainty..........just when does it arrive, is the question. There will be blood in the streets, the only question is how much. Google the Second American Revolution...........where I come from, it was fought in our towns and in our fields......... literally. Shay’s Rebellion is where federal troops fired on veterans of the Revolutionary War..........read it. Thomas Jefferson: “ tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants”. This famous quote was in reference to the rebellion.........and for the record, Jefferson thought it was fine.......... Edited January 25, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHuDWah Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 And yet you talked about hot rods and their builders, which is what I replied to. Other than that, I don't disagree with the following: 49 minutes ago, Brass is Best said: Well I was speaking in the context of the AACA. If I wanted to talk about Hot Rods I would be on the HAMB. I have seen tens of thousands of cars in my life. But I have never seen a perfect car anywhere. the idea of a perfect car is an illusion. Anyone who says their car is perfect is a liar. The most we can do is chase perfection and hope to come close. That is perhaps the fun for some. To chase perfection. Others could care less. But having perfectionists among us is a good thing. They push us all to be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, CHuDWah said: But having perfectionists among us is a good thing. And cynics! Edited January 25, 2021 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 5 hours ago, Flivverking said: Perfection desires,or degress there of ,somehow have a connection to how high a level of personal EGO one has.. Or so I've notice 😜. EGO and self respect are two totally different things, NEVER confuse the two. Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BucketofBolts Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Perfectionism is a state of excellence and purity that others strive to accomplish. It is the ultimate measuring rod. Unfortunately, only a few can afford to climb that ladder and reach the pinnacle of perfectionism. In truth most owners of classic and non-classic vehicles would likely want to be a member of the "perfectionist group" if they could afford to be in that group. What is affordable? My opinion is if one can't sleep at night about what the cost will be then it is not affordable. Sadly, I have been a victim of many sleepless nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURktman Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Perfection can either exist everywhere or nowhere. Everywhere if you find the quirks and "variances" in everything to provide "perfection." Or, if you're like me, it exists no where because everything can be improved. You can wet sand that paint with 5000 grit instead of stopping at 2000 grit and polish. You can get those microswirls and microscopic pits out of that brass with a bit more polishing. You can get that bumper straighter with a laser than with the Mark I Calibrated Eyeball. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 But my question is that given most cars were "built to cost" and some (quite a few) had inherant defects, when does the "search for perfection" become a restomod ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, auburnseeker said: Once the rich start relocating and people find out that the new rich are the middle and lower middle class, then eventually upper poor class, they will finally realize we weren't all crazy when we said we told you so. Anyone that believes only the rich would pay more in taxes was dense to say the least. Unfortunately their choices affect everyone. That's because the 'new' rich will be the ONLY rich. What happened in Cuba in 1959 comes to mind, and that 'new rich' were far from rich. The only way that country received money after the wealthy fled (leaving all those '50's cars behind) was from the former Soviet Union, and when that country collapsed under its own weight, they could no longer afford to support Castro and the Cubans. Craig Edited January 26, 2021 by 8E45E (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURktman Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, padgett said: But my question is that given most cars were "built to cost" and some (quite a few) had inherant defects, when does the "search for perfection" become a restomod ? That gets to the heart of “over-restored”. One of the topics that always gets brought up in the TriFive world is level of restoration. If you have a 57 fuelie that is restored, the panel gaps are flawless, and paint looks like a Steinway piano, chances are it’s a bit over-restored. Now, your high end cars (RR, Bugatti, etc) were all hand made and quick production was not of higher importance than fit and finish. To me, “restored” means brought back as to factory new, not better, not worse. Edited January 26, 2021 by AURktman (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Let's not end up with a political thread here folks. Our moderators have come out strongly about such talk. However, going to try to add my two cents for what it is worth in this thread about perfectionism. 1. Like Larry I was a factory service rep and saw thousands of cars and as a dealer even more. ALL cars during my time were far from perfect be they fit or finish. Paint jobs and gaps today on these restored cars are incredible. Very few, if any, would be happy restoring a car to those original standards. The game changed years ago and there is no putting that horse back in the barn. Restore an early car the way it came from the factory? The paint job alone would have people questioning your sanity. Personally, as someone who has gone down that road and restored a car far beyond its original condition I understand. Between myself and the restoration shop the goal was to make the car the best we could. I see nothing wrong in that. 2. As to perfection, friends, I do no think someone is a liar if they THINK their car is perfect. To them, it is, they did their best. Maybe misguided is a better word. Perfection is different things to different people. I always told people my cars were as perfect as I could make them, no more no less. I can tell you there are cars I have judged that unless I was the biggest nitpicker in the world I would have a hard time taking points off based on quality of restoration. As long as the standard is what it is today that is what we have to deal with.... 3. It bothers me still to have people equate quality of restoration with the size of someone's wallet. Yep, it is easier if you have the resources but I have seen many restorations done by folks in their garage that stand up to some of the finest shops in the country. Talent, hard work, quest for the best is not limited to the rich. 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Had a long reply working but Steve just said it better. A "stock" car in many cases would be undrivable today. Don't think I have a stock car but doesn't mean I do not know what stock is (the assembly manual used on the line is a great help. How many have one ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 One often hears folks say they can't compete with "check book restorations". The truth is they most certainly can and if anything it is the pro restorer who has trouble competing with the fellow restoring his car in his home garage. The pro has to count all his hours and bill for most if not all of them . The amateur can spend as much time as needed to make something "perfect". Even the most understanding of "check book" restorers has a limit on the number of hours labor he will be happy with. The amateur can learn whatever skills the pro has but the pro cannot spend unlimited hours on a project like the amateur can. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Problem with a "check book restoration" is they are limited to what money can buy. Suspect I have a lot of documentation from the 60s and 70s that is NLA. Hard part is telling what is original and what has been superseded. Try this: is it better to restore "as originally built" or to add the corrections resulting from TSBs/factory updates ? Just an easy example both the 1967 GTO and 1984 Fiero came from the factory with an oil filter that has a different service replacement in the parts book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Gariepy Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 STOP THE POLITICS! I've already given one 90 day ban today. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 16 minutes ago, padgett said: Problem with a "check book restoration" is they are limited to what money can buy. Suspect I have a lot of documentation from the 60s and 70s that is NLA. Hard part is telling what is original and what has been superseded. Try this: is it better to restore "as originally built" or to add the corrections resulting from TSBs/factory updates ? Just an easy example both the 1967 GTO and 1984 Fiero came from the factory with an oil filter that has a different service replacement in the parts book. I don't know what we are "trying" but if the car is restored to how it was delivered to the public by the dealer when new, and the owner does the research and has the documentation to present the judging captain, should be no problem. The rules really don't change from club to club. For the most part when you see a car wearing an AACA Grand National Badge, the cars also are wearing other badges from their marque clubs as well. A high caliber restoration requires money and a lot of it regardless if the entire job subbed out to a shop or only portions. Certain cars require a lot of research, and some it is already done. First comes to mind are Corvettes and Model A Fords. So all one has to do is follow the books and pay attention to the fine details and not cut corners, but that comes at a cost. My Dentist who is also my friend has some very high caliber restored European cars, and they are all check book restorations. Some of which I had a part in, where we traded services. I would much rather he pay people to do the work then to see grease under his finger nails when does work on me. I am a perfectionist and damn proud of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 What posts above do you consider "political"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 I give up, just know enough about some cars to believe that money alone is not enough to know exactly the way a specific car was sent to the dealer and what is often felt to be correct (R59 batteries) isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, padgett said: I give up, just know enough about some cars to believe that money alone is not enough to know exactly the way a specific car was sent to the dealer and what is often felt to be correct (R59 batteries) isn't. I really don't know why you are specifically talking about batteries, but I am sure there is documentation one way or the other. If the correct replacement battery is incorrect then every car of that year and model faces the same problem, correct? So how does this apply to "tossing out the perfectionist"? I was told a long time ago by friend in this hobby there are those who can do it, do it well and succeed, and there are those who can't just hide behind their criticism of those who do. Edited January 26, 2021 by John348 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 The secret to being a successful perfectionist is knowing when to pick your battles. Otherwise you end up with analysis paralysis. I like the saying -something like—strive for perfection, and you often end up with excellence. I like excellence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 On one of those TV shows that looks at automobiles and the factories that make them they ran two episodes back to back on building two very different cars. The first episode was on the build of new Rolls Royce cars and the detail they go through for ensuring the car is as close to perfection as possible. Every step of assembly involved craftsmen checking every detail of assembly and making sure it was absolutely the best it could be. Quite amazing to watch. Then the second episode came on next which was the build of new Camaro autos. Let’s just be nice and say the attention to detail was not quite the same as the RR. And certainly it can’t be to make as many cars as they do and at their price point compared to the RR. The one outstanding difference for me was when a body dimension was flagged by a robotic measurement system as at or over tolerance. That prompted an inspection by a human who gave it a pass as it was just within limits using his hand held gauge. No fussing and no worries, good enough! That’s where the RR guys would have spent more time on the problem. So the difference between a $450k car and a $45k car build became quite apparent. When you restore a RR the attention to near perfection detail is required. For a Camaro it doesn’t have to be perfect in every way to match how it was made in the factory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, TerryB said: On one of those TV shows that looks at automobiles and the factories that make them they ran two episodes back to back on building two very different cars. The first episode was on the build of new Rolls Royce cars and the detail they go through for ensuring the car is as close to perfection as possible. Every step of assembly involved craftsmen checking every detail of assembly and making sure it was absolutely the best it could be. Quite amazing to watch. Then the second episode came on next which was the build of new Camaro autos. Let’s just be nice and say the attention to detail was not quite the same as the RR. And certainly it can’t be to make as many cars as they do and at their price point compared to the RR. The one outstanding difference for me was when a body dimension was flagged by a robotic measurement system as at or over tolerance. That prompted an inspection by a human who gave it a pass as it was just within limits using his hand held gauge. No fussing and no worries, good enough! That’s where the RR guys would have spent more time on the problem. So the difference between a $450k car and a $45k car build became quite apparent. When you restore a RR the attention to near perfection detail is required. For a Camaro it doesn’t have to be perfect in every way to match how it was made in the factory. Terry, very true. The trick is to replicate the factory defects. The problem is that many use that excuse to justify poor workmanship on a restoration. A quote we all have heard "they did not come out of the factory that good" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Said I give up, some (my glee club) just try to find any word in what I say they can disagree with and miss the entire point. All I was trying to say is that I have enough poorly documented/undocumented information about some cars to know that money alone is not enough. You also have to know what question to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, John348 said: Terry, very true. The trick is to replicate the factory defects. The problem is that many use that excuse to justify poor workmanship on a restoration. A quote we all have heard "they did not come out of the factory that good" An often used line when something gets a quickie paint job! I am always impressed with those who do paint and body work and the level of work it takes to get a good end result. It’s why I had no problems letting those who are good at those things do the work for me. I’d rather spin the wrenches any day than do that stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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