Hacks, hacks, everywhere hacks

[Matt Harwood]

Had a rather expensive car show up last week. Seller raved about the quality of the guy doing the work, how he had restored cars for Pebble Beach and Jay Leno (that's always BS, but whatever), and that he has a waiting list two years long for people trying to get into his shop. The car also came with a stack of receipts an inch thick, probably adding up to close to six figures. Blah, blah, blah. The usual stuff when a guy is happy about spending money on a car.

 

I drove it around the block, my usual test drive that's about 8 miles. Enough to get to know it a bit, get it up to temperature, and try it at a variety of speeds. Does drive great. 

 

Parked it and heard something hissing up front. Steam. I figured a hose came loose or split or something. Nope. Well it surely can't be that brand new radiator, can it? 

 

I turned Roman, my mechanic, loose on the car and it was indeed the radiator. I found the receipt in the file and the 'Pebble Beach/Jay Leno shop' that restored the car charged the owner nearly $2000 for re-coring the original radiator, so it was strange that it would be leaking. Roman pulled the radiator out of the car to see what was going on and this is what we found:

 

    

 

Yep, that's JB Weld on an obviously brand new radiator core. We also found an obviously incorrect bolt (stainless allen head) holding the radiator shroud in place, stripped and mangled, pushed against the driver's side tank so hard that it was dimpled. Roman believes that they had a beautiful new radiator and whilst installing it, they somehow mangled it and poked a hole in it. Rather than taking it to the radiator shop to be properly repaired [again], they smeared JB Weld all over the place and just slapped it together. Then charged the customer $2000 for the job. The radiator is trash, the radiator shop can't remove the epoxy and repair it, it has to be re-cored or replaced—again. 

 

This isn't the first time we've had to fix another shop's terrible workmanship on a car, and it's not even the first time that someone was raving about their "guy" being the best when it turns out he's just another jackhole hack. But this is probably the most egregious example of a shop being terrible at their job, doing the worst possible thing to cover their mistakes, and charging the customer a 100% mark-up on the job. It's offensive.

I've informed the customer and he's kind of in denial. No way his "guy" would do that, it must have been the radiator shop. Unlikely. I told him I'd back him up if he wants to go after the shop, but he's going to let it slide and just pay us to fix it. It's going to be expensive, but at least it'll be right. 

 

Don't be a hack. Don't let hacks work on your car. Check your mechanic's work carefully. And don't settle for hack work, yours or anyone else's. This is exactly why 98% of old cars are such headaches.

[Guest]

What the hack were they thinking?

[3macboys]

I don't think even the high school kid on a co-op placement could do that kind of a job on a rad

[Laughing Coyote]

That's why I tell my wife that I will do what needs to be done on the cars and around the house. Why pay twice. Once for the guy to screw it up and for me to redo the job again.

[CarNucopia]

Those guys weren’t good enough to be hacks.

[padgett]

Only thing I've used JB Weld for is to insert a cam magnet in a 3800 from the front. OTOH have performed a few hacks myself usually because the right part is either NLA or costs more than I paid for the car. $2k for a radiator sounds a bit absurd.

 

Is this the same as for computers: a hacker does not care about collateral damage while for elegant code you spend 1/3 of the time on the inline code and 2/3 on error handling.

 

ps worst one I had to deal with recently was the cretin who managed to tighten the lug nuts on a wheel. Except he/she/it/other managed to screw 12mm nuts on a 1/2" stud. Broke three (and replaced all) getting them off.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Your experience shows why it's important

actually to DRIVE a car, not just back a new

restoration on and off a trailer.  The owner surely

would have caught this earlier if he had done

more than just look at his new restoration.

[1935Packard]

Thanks for this insightful post, Matt.  It's part of the problem when car owners (including me) often can't personally tell when a shop has done a good job: We don't know enough to know when the shop owner is a hack.  Ideally, asking around and finding out who is actually good can lead us to the right place.  But it's tough when there are few options and we're not good at telling when someone knows what they're doing and is doing it correctly.

[60FlatTop]

JB and cars don't mix.

[Matt Harwood]

6 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Thanks for this insightful post, Matt.  It's part of the problem when car owners (including me) often can't personally tell when a shop has done a good job: We don't know enough to know when the shop owner is a hack.  Ideally, asking around and finding out who is actually good can lead us to the right place.  But it's tough when there are few options and we're not good at telling when someone knows what they're doing and is doing it correctly.

 

All I had to do was drive the car and we discovered a problem. We didn't know the extent of it, of course, but it was obvious pretty quickly that there was a problem up front in the cooling system. A few checks ruled out the hoses, and at that point I was thinking something like a split in the solder between the core and the tank. I did not expect the problem we found.

 

Driving your car is the best way to find substandard work. If it isn't right, the problems will reveal themselves eventually.

 

It's also worth mentioning that there was just plain water in the cooling system, not coolant. The cooling system would not have stayed healthy for long. You'd think that a guy doing that kind of crap work would want it to stay hidden, not compound things with a frozen block or rusty cooling system in a few months...

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Walt G]

$2,000 for a radiator core on a pre WWII era big classic isn't totally absurd. I am not saying it isn't expensive for one to have to come up with the $ to pay for it, just that knowing what is involved and the time it takes to do the job plus the materials ( copper honeycomb?!?) I wasn't surprised with the $ quoted. If you are into postwar cars that $ may surprise you or perhaps make you blink twice or three times but you need to take a step back and look at it from the perspective and era of the car. That $2,000 + would most likely also be needed to replate a radiator shell on a 1934 and earlier car. WG

[60FlatTop]

Sure looks like a Mustang radiator. I am just trying to figure out the shroud attachment.

 

When I worked on strange, to me, cars I had a 10 miles oil warmup route, five miles each way, never too far to walk home. Pre-cellphone days.

 

Took a second look, I see it is a crossflow standing 90 degrees.

Edited June 10, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

17 minutes ago, Walt G said:

$2,000 for a radiator core on a pre WWII era big classic isn't totally absurd. I am not saying it isn't expensive for one to have to come up with the $ to pay for it, just that knowing what is involved and the time it takes to do the job plus the materials ( copper honeycomb?!?) I wasn't surprised with the $ quoted. If you are into postwar cars that $ may surprise you or perhaps make you blink twice or three times but you need to take a step back and look at it from the perspective and era of the car. That $2,000 + would most likely also be needed to replate a radiator shell on a 1934 and earlier car. WG

 

This is a '60s GM muscle car. I had a radiator for a big block Corvette re-cored not too long ago for about $980. They took the cost of the re-core and simply doubled it. I'm seeing that in a lot of their work now that I'm going through the receipts more carefully. $900 for a clutch disc and pressure plate? $6500 for a set of repro wheels? Yeah, they were padding their bills more than a bit. Too bad they're lousy at their job and got caught being lousy at their job. I'm going to encourage the guy who paid for all the work to go after them, but he's not really interested.

 

This kind of stuff is exactly why professionals in the hobby get a bad name. And customers only caring about cosmetic beauty and not driving their cars is exactly why they get away with it.

[Mark Gregory]

Just a thought Matt maybe the employee patched up the radiator so the employer would not see it.

Just like a car assembly line once it was out of the shop it was one persons word against the other ?

I still cannot believe they just put water in the radiator unless anti-freeze attacks the JB Weld and makes it leak.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

45 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I had a radiator for a big block Corvette re-cored not too long ago for about $980.

 

Radiator re-cores for 1955ish Buicks, Olds, and Mopar. New fin and tube, new over flow pipes, beautiful jobs, no leaks or problems.............$900 each.....Bob

[Zimm63]

Having found that, I would be very concerned about everything else. 

 

Especially given the excessive markups.  $900 clutch job on a GM?  That kind of stuff is why I do as much of my own work as possible and have accumulated the equipment to do so.  I look at what people pay for stuff and just shake my head.  Not just car repair, but home repair.  I know people who paid $1,000 for a routine water heater replacement.  Last one I did, the unit was $400 and I was taking a hot shower two hours after I started.   

 

 

[John_Mereness]

A friend just had a radiator done for her Alfa Romeo 1750 GS SS - it was about 40K and a 30's Mercedes is even higher cost - just to help put some things into perspective that 900-ish and even 2k-ish can look very appealing when you have dealt with a more way over the top problem(s).  

 

Ex. Dad sees a Ford Model A part and proclaims the cost for anything as "free."

Edited June 10, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[deaddds]

I’ve had 2 quotes for my 1919 Olds radiator and both were just over 3K. Only difference was the one fellow when told the leak was up high said just use it unless/ until another leak occurs where it clearly effects the coolant level. That was a couple years ago and so far I’ve held off.

[Matt Harwood]

Yes, but this was a simple re-core on a mass-produced '60s GM car. Not the same.

[SC38dls]

I don't know what an Alfa Romeo 1750 GS SS even looks like or what the total cost of one would be, or how rare/unique it may be. But $40K for a radiator is just plain nuts. I sure hope it wasn't done in the same shop as did the one Matt is talking about. 

dave s 

Edited June 10, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Had they spent the 40K when they first restored the car and not tired to make do, then they most likely would not have had the second 100K plus engine rebuild to deal with.

[SC38dls]

So it is a driver not just a show car?  I assume it is if they blew the engine because the radiator was bad. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one but most high end alpha’s of the time was custom bodied so it must be a very unique looking car. 
can you post a pick?  Matt not trying to hijack but I really find it hard to believe a radiator core cost $40k.  Maybe because I drive a simple 38 Studebaker for daily fun driver. 
dave s 

[TTR]

Hacks are nothing new (or even unique) to automotive repairs/services.

Not only they've likely been around since the invention of the contraption, but if I was a gambling man, I'd put my money on fact that there is and has always been more of them than those who can and will do things correctly.

It also seems there's proportionally even more of them in old/used/vintage vehicle "service industry" and this hobby in general.

[coachJC]

As part of our family business has been rads for 50yrs, Matt is bang on is saying the mass produced cars of the 60's (and then up to when the auto industry changed over to plastics tanks) were rather simple to re-core.

It is about a 2-3 hr job to un-solder the old tanks, sandblast them clean ,then solder those tanks back on the new core, then paint. It is not $2000 endeavour. Core cost have gone up due to the price of copper but that does not make it a $2000 rad

 

You want to see an expensive rad to re manufacture...original core(inoperable) in the front new core in the back. This is not the pic of the tractor, but just what I could find that is similar.

 

Jeff

 

[TTR]

17 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Thanks for this insightful post, Matt.  It's part of the problem when car owners (including me) often can't personally tell when a shop has done a good job: We don't know enough to know when the shop owner is a hack.  Ideally, asking around and finding out who is actually good can lead us to the right place.  But it's tough when there are few options and we're not good at telling when someone knows what they're doing and is doing it correctly.

Finding an automotive service provider to fit ones expectations shouldn't be much different from finding a dentist/doctor/gardener/RE agent/etc. or buying an old/used car or a house, etc. If one is not personally able or doesn't have acquaintances to assess qualifications/quality of an item or service provider, it is a good/smart idea to try find and, if needed, hire someone (i.e. third party) with subject experience to consult.

This can often be best money one can spend and might even be safer than asking (read. risking) friends.

Edited June 11, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Thats a pretty nasty repair. I would have done something like that when I was 16 and had no money in the budget for car repairs, I knew a guy with a 36 ford coupe that was half bailing wire and the other duct tape! But for a pro shop to do something like that is pathetic. I can surely see a mistake happening and trying to cover something up, but a fix like that shows the integrity of the shop, which is appearently not that much.  I had a job that the glass exhaust hood over the stove was  broke in the box. My problem was that I picked it up from the store for the homeowner, and it sat in his barn for a few months before we opened it. I know for a fact that we did not break it but I took the high road and ordered a replacement at my cost ($1600.) This was for a very good customer that I have done a lot of work for since. It was a tough pill to swallow but has more than paid off since with future work.

[Steve9]

5 hours ago, Mark Gregory said:

Just a thought Matt maybe the employee patched up the radiator so the employer would not see it.

Just like a car assembly line once it was out of the shop it was one persons word against the other ?

I still cannot believe they just put water in the radiator unless anti-freeze attacks the JB Weld and makes it leak.

 

 

I can totally see this scenario playing out. A knucklehead employee who’s working on his “last warning” regarding mistakes has everything to lose by being up front about another goof. The shop and the car owner both lose. And the knucklehead lives to mess up more cars.

[edinmass]

13 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Thanks for this insightful post, Matt.  It's part of the problem when car owners (including me) often can't personally tell when a shop has done a good job: We don't know enough to know when the shop owner is a hack.  Ideally, asking around and finding out who is actually good can lead us to the right place.  But it's tough when there are few options and we're not good at telling when someone knows what they're doing and is doing it correctly.

 

 

It's best to hire someone to represent you when using a restoration shop. With digital photos, and phone calls, 90 percent of issues can be prevented. Also, if you let the shop know you have expectations about the finished product, they will generally be better at the details.

 

[1935Packard]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

It's best to hire someone to represent you when using a restoration shop. With digital photos, and phone calls, 90 percent of issues can be prevented. Also, if you let the shop know you have expectations about the finished product, they will generally be better at the details.

 

That makes a lot of sense. Or at least let the shops know that you have friends. 

[padgett]

Always take a very knowledgeable friend along when I look at a car, he often sees things I miss and suggests things I didn't think about. If were truly inept I'd probably take two.

[chistech]

Just got quoted $4500 -$5000 for a new OEM honeycomb radiator for my 32’olds. Luckily found an original with an excellent core but the tanks had stress cracks that needed to be soldered. On another note, how about when you do quality work and the SHTF anyway. My motor was completely rebuilt with brand new head bolts but after it’s initial runs in, I had three bolts pull loose in the block causing a combustion leak into the water jacket. Like many early engines, the head bolt holes go right into the water chamber and while we checked every hole, there was fatigue there that really couldn’t be seen. Ended up pulling the head and installing 18 inserts in the block. I still had anxiety when I first got it back together and running it. I suppose  I was second guessing my work or how things seem to just happen to me sometimes. I doubt I’m alone in that though. So doing quality work a SECOND time has paid off! LOL

[SC38dls]

On a problem like fatigue in the holes on an engine like that would you be able to see that if it was MAGNAFLUXED (sp?) ?  I've had some shops saying that is a full proof method for checking a block but I've always had my doubts anything is full proof? 

dave s 

[padgett]

a) locktite blue is removable but seals

b) did the bolts torque properly ?

c) where is the taxi (hack) discussion ?

[60FlatTop]

A couple of years after I bought my '60 Electra, maybe '04 or so, I got a leak at a tank seam. I took it took a shop run by a High School friend and pretty much gave him a blank check for whatever. He refused to recore it because he could not duplicate the quality of the old core. At my request he also bead blasted and painted the brackets with satin black polyurethane instead of black radiator paint.

 

It is good to find that kind of service.

 

My problem with home repair hacks is that they don't have a clue about aesthetics.

 

or the 6' length of siding with a seam in it "because they did not want to waste material.". (That guy had no idea why I made him redo the siding board)

 

"I can save you money" means "I will never do what you ask".

[edinmass]

Just a short note.........most cars I have serviced that have been to pebble, and even class winners, usually need 80 hours or more of my time. Some need hundreds of hours............

[Brass is Best]

I bought a car from a broker house once. In the phone conversation I was told the car ran perfectly and had no issues. The broker told me the car did not have any major leaks,. When I arrived the radiator had a pretty good leak. The broker told me it was not a leak but rather a drip. I asked the difference. I was told a leak makes a big puddle on the floor a drip only makes a small puddle. I found the charging system not to be working and the broker asked why I cared, because nobody drives old cars that far. I have driven the car several thousand miles now that it is fixed. On the test drive the broker kept grinding the gears and couldn't make the overdrive work. He kept beating the dashboard with his fist and started screaming like a spoiled little kid. I told him if he broke the car I would not buy it. I brought the car home to my shop. Fixed the "drip". Repaired the electrical system and the overdrive. Made the non working tail lamp and brake lamp work. Repacked the water pump, not sure if it was leaking or dripping in the brokers eyes but it was making a mess of my shop floor. Turns out the car wouldn't shift because the idle was way too high. This was because the carb needed rebuilt. The Overdrive worked after a complete rewire. No need to beat the dash anymore. Several hundred hours later the car was as described. There are hacks everywhere.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Brass is Best (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

I am never surprised at any car repair that I run into.  Most of the cars that I have had have usually come with some sort of Shade bush (lower than a shade tree) repair done on them, many from years ago.  Even modern cars can have this problem.  I had a Toyota  pickup that I took to the dealer for a leaking timing cover.  To fix this you have to remove the head.  The dealer tech. did not even drain the radiator before pulling the head and there was lots of antifreeze in the oil.  I noticed that the first time I pulled the dipstick.  The service manager told me "the antifreeze won't hurt any thing and that it would boil away in a day or two."  I am sure the whole dealership heard all the choice words I had to say.  A year or two later the head gasket blew and I fixed that myself.  Two of the head bolts were hardly more than finger tight.  How it lasted as long as it did was another mystery.  

     A friend of mine bought a brand new Z-28 in 1968.  Believe it or not Chevy had a five year fifty thousand mile warranty back then.  He stepped on the gas a lot but did not really abuse the car.  He was sitting at a stoplight one day and the engine blew.  Back to the dealer for warranty work.  He started to really baby the car after that but two months later the engine blew at another stoplight.  Dealer fixed it again but he was so scared  of the car that he drove like a grandma after the dealer says they would not fix again.  Made us wonder about the quality of "warranty work" that was given.    

[padgett]

Why I don't trust "professionals". Oak tree root was just high enough to change the clutch in my Buick. Floridians always seek shade. Bought my new Goat Wagon and was delivered to a dealer. Protested about putting it on a lift until we found there was no oil in the posi. I go to a dealer only for recalls and oil changes (lifetime warranty from Chrysler).

[John_Mereness]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:06 AM, chistech said:

Just got quoted $4500 -$5000 for a new OEM honeycomb radiator for my 32’olds. Luckily found an original with an excellent core but the tanks had stress cracks that needed to be soldered. On another note, how about when you do quality work and the SHTF anyway. My motor was completely rebuilt with brand new head bolts but after it’s initial runs in, I had three bolts pull loose in the block causing a combustion leak into the water jacket. Like many early engines, the head bolt holes go right into the water chamber and while we checked every hole, there was fatigue there that really couldn’t be seen. Ended up pulling the head and installing 18 inserts in the block. I still had anxiety when I first got it back together and running it. I suppose  I was second guessing my work or how things seem to just happen to me sometimes. I doubt I’m alone in that though. So doing quality work a SECOND time has paid off! LOL

When I first did the 1930 Franklin the heads would torque fine, but thereafter 25 miles or so start leaking yuck at the joint between the cylinder and head - it turned out that the studs were stripping in the aluminum head (3 studs go all the way through and 3 studs do not).  I recall an AACA club member coming over on one of our yearly open houses and goading me into starting the car up - I did and as he added his two cents while inspecting every inch of the engine I noticed a fine line of gunk spraying onto his white shirt.

[John_Mereness]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:06 AM, chistech said:

Just got quoted $4500 -$5000 for a new OEM honeycomb radiator for my 32’olds. 

I think that is pretty common for original style honneycomb radiators - it costs a surprising amount of money to not only make the copper tubes, but they are also labor intensive to make from scratch.   I mentioned a 30's Alfa radiator costing 40K and 30's Mercedes radiators costing even more - well they are incredibly complicated and you are making something from scratch too (a making of the parts, to make the parts, to make the parts kind of thing).  To put it in perspective though, had the Alfa owner properly dealt with the radiator in the cars first restoration, then they may have saved themselves 100K in the second restoration of the engine (plus, enjoyed the car more). 

Edited June 12, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)