Smartin Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Be glad you found it NOW! Bummer to have to blow it apart again, though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95Cardinal Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Matt, Imagine how great it's going to feel when that shim is back in there and the pump works. You're SO CLOSE!!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 55 minutes ago, Smartin said: Be glad you found it NOW! That does suck!! While you're in there do a good double and triple check of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 That there is a character building moment....😜 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 17, 2021 Author Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, maok said: That there is a character building moment....😜 This car has given me so much character that I should be a Disneyland musical. Edited September 18, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 5 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 And then there are people we have always considered "characters" in both positive and sometimes negative ways , and some of us who have become viewed as characters by others as we aged or matured - but some don't necessarily mature as they age, just become more of a curmudgeon. ( and I know some of you are thinking - well...how does he know that???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNRGCnLDeBw Edited September 17, 2021 by EmTee (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 I empathize: 1990s, Saturday night, 10 pm (should have been in the Flats by now) stuck in 6 hour OR case at Metrohealth as a student, last meal was 11 hours ago, 20 minutes from closing up. The anesthesiologist leans around the curtain, "hey did you guys just do something?" "No, why?" "Well the blood pressure just dropped". Chief resident starts yelling out 4 letter words (I think something flew overhead to the back of the room). We open back up and blood shoots up 6 feet like a fountain. Apparently an artery wasn't fully sewn up on the back side where it was challenging to mobilize and access. We saved him but that was one of many nights that told me not to become a surgeon for quality of life purposes....So yeah, sometimes you have to go back. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) OK, dropped the pan and threw away another 3 gallons of expensive synthetic oil with probably fewer than 10,000 engine revolutions on it. That offends my sense of waste, but whatever. Pulled the #2 main cap, which is the one with the shims, and found one shim still in place. Looking at the bearing surface and crank journal, there's no damage. Either I didn't run it long enough to hurt anything or there was no danger. Main cap still has one brass shim in place. Both shims were on the same side--why two? Bearing surfaces are not badly scored from being too tight. I might try to clean up the insert a bit with some ultra-fine steel wool, but it's in good shape. Confident there was no damage, I used Plasti-Gauge to measure my clearances. Take a little strip, place it across the bearing surface, tighten the bearing to spec. (I tighten these to 60 lb.-ft.), then remove and measure the width of the flattened Plasti-Gauge. It's brilliantly simple. Place the Plasti-Gauge on the bearing. Torque the bearing to spec. then remove again to reveal flattened Plasti-Gauge. Then measure how flat it got. It looks like I have somewhere between .0015" and .002" of clearance without the shim I found on the ground, which is about what we measured the first time. The book specifies .001-.003" clearance, so I think I'm good to go. Why did they use the extra shim? Was it unnecessary or did the bearings wear enough that removing it brought it back into spec.? Or did the guy who assembled the engine get the clearances too large somehow? Not sure I care to disassemble and check any of the other bearings, particularly the front and rear, which are doing multiple jobs. I have good oil pressure now, so I don't think any of the clearances are too loose. But before I close it up, I'm asking you, great wisdom of the internet collective, do you think this is good to go? Button it up and get back to work? Or keep fretting, measuring, and assembling/disassembling the thing looking for ghosts? My gut says button it up and go, clearance is good and this was simply a wild goose chase (that at least gives me the confidence that it was right). What say you? Edited September 18, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 It’s all set. Leave it be, and run it. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: OK, dropped the pan and threw away another 3 gallons of expensive synthetic oil with probably fewer than 10,000 engine revolutions on it. That offends my sense of waste Matt consider it part of cleaning the insides of your engine out. I think I’ve changed my oil five or six times in 2000 miles. You can add that up, it’s expensive but not near as expensive of the cost of a rebuilt engine. I would rather put a few minutes to a few miles on oil and change it just to clean stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 8 hours ago, prewarnut said: I empathize: 1990s, Saturday night, 10 pm (should have been in the Flats by now) stuck in 6 hour OR case at Metrohealth as a student, last meal was 11 hours ago, 20 minutes from closing up. The anesthesiologist leans around the curtain, "hey did you guys just do something?" "No, why?" "Well the blood pressure just dropped". Chief resident starts yelling out 4 letter words (I think something flew overhead to the back of the room). We open back up and blood shoots up 6 feet like a fountain. Apparently an artery wasn't fully sewn up on the back side where it was challenging to mobilize and access. We saved him but that was one of many nights that told me not to become a surgeon for quality of life purposes....So yeah, sometimes you have to go back. Are you still here in Cleveland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) Bottom end is buttoned up. Reinstalled bearing and cap, torqued nuts to 60 lb-ft., installed locking brackets, oil feed, oil pump pickup, screen, and oil pan. I managed to save both cork oil pan gaskets and don't expect any problems there, although I'm seeing some drips below the bellhousing--rear main seal leak? Bah. Bought another three gallons of 15W40 synthetic oil. Noticed with some dismay that my friend with the forklift crushed my exhaust pipe, so I had to cut that off before the crushed area and re-route it. Shouldn't really matter--I've been running it without a muffler for a while now. Sounds heroic. I also installed a cable for the choke so I don't have to work it manually and can focus on the throttle and other things and hopefully get some tuning done... as long as it stays cool. All I need to do now is wait for Monday to get the forklift guy to pull it down and we can do the barrel test for the water pump. Wish I didn't have to wait, I have trouble redirecting myself and tomorrow I will be antsy. Meh. Edited September 19, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Kingsley Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 Just out of curiosity, but wouldn't it be possible to reuse the oil if it's still fresh and just had to come out? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 1 minute ago, Billy Kingsley said: Just out of curiosity, but wouldn't it be possible to reuse the oil if it's still fresh and just had to come out? Well, yes and no. It probably wasn't dirty, but since I was concerned about a bearing "event" then it was very possible that the oil was full of tiny metal particles from the bearings self-destructing. Since I didn't know what I'd find, it was just safer to drain it and get rid of it. Wasteful as hell, yes, but you don't want to pour contaminated oil back into the engine. Add in the fact that I've been working on and around this engine with the heads and oil pan off, then there's the possibility of a lot of dirt being in there. As AB-Buff says, changing the oil is the only way to clean the inside of the engine. So while it costs $90 every time I want to change the oil, I kind of look at it as cheap insurance at this stage of the game. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 13 minutes ago, Billy Kingsley said: Just out of curiosity, but wouldn't it be possible to reuse the oil if it's still fresh and just had to come out? Call it superstition if you like, but we just don't EVER do that. One reason is that whatever grit, dust and dirt it runs over on it's way out often contaminates it. Maybe not very bad, maybe bad. Nobody knows. We assume the worst. Fresh oil out of a bottle can generally be assumed to be clean and free of contamination. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Are you still here in Cleveland? Afraid not, but wouldn't mind visiting again. I already have to come to terms with changing the name of Jacob's Field, now the name of the whole team....Still remember $6. weekday tickets for a game in the Brown's stadium....I really, really miss biking the toe path near Boston, OH. I could go on....did get to Crawford once or twice but would really appreciate the collection better now. Best, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Since I didn't know what I'd find, it was just safer to drain it and get rid of it. I'll bet your John Deere would like it just fine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Kingsley Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 That's very logical. Why take chances? Especially on a build that's been as troublesome as this one has been 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) Felt ambitious so I reinstalled all the water jacket manifolds, filled it with oil, reconnected the battery, and set up the test barrel with about ~30 gallons of water in it. Engine was very hard to fire for some reason--I think the rebuilt fuel pump is failing now--but eventually I got it running. It won't idle, so I have to keep my hand on the throttle, but at least my choke cable seemed to be working so I don't have to keep my hand on the carburetor. The hair on my arms thanked me for not burning it off on the manifolds again. Water pump test results were mixed, as this video shows: Plenty of flow at speed but zero at idle. Why? I have a theory: with the barrel, I can't completely fill the engine itself. As a result, there's a lot of empty space at the top. At idle, maybe it's not moving enough volume to fill this void and push it out the top--it just churns. There's also the fact that I haven't been able to do any tuning and it surges a lot. You can see the oil pressure drop quite a bit as the engine stumbles and coughs and then rights itself--perhaps it's the same with the water pump. Since it isn't running smoothly at idle, maybe it isn't moving water like it should at idle because the speed of the pump speed is irregular. That's all I can think of that might cause zero flow at idle. I don't think the engine is full and therefore the pump can't move enough water at idle to push it out the top. The next step is, I think, to reinstall the radiator so that the engine is full and see what happens, maybe monitor it at idle with the radiator cap off or reinstall the clear upper hoses. On the plus side, plenty of trash came out and settled to the bottom of the barrel, so at least something useful happened. The water pump blew out a lot of trash from inside the block. Oh, and I think the rear main seal has failed. There's a TON of oil coming out of the bellhousing and getting all over the flywheel. I really don't want to drop that oil pan again. I don't even know how to take it apart or fix the rear main on this engine. Am I ever going to catch a break on this car? Edited September 21, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I can't believe how hot those exhaust manifolds get! What was the red dot at the front of the engine right near the end of the video(3:52)??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 Scheisse! I never noticed them glowing like that before. Something else is really wrong. Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartin Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Centrifugal pumps don’t like to pull, only push. So since your reservoir is below the engine it won’t “suck” water without significant RPM. So I think you’re ok there. For the manifolds…what is timing set at? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Unburned hydrocarbons exiting and combusting in the exhaust manifold instead of in the cylinder? Too rich? A problem with the exhaust valves not sealing, and leaking during the compression stroke, so air/fuel mixture goes out to the manifold? Yes timing could be off too. Lots of possibilities I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 As above...the bottom of the tank has to be above the water pump. Centrifugal pumps have very little suction - some have nearly none. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Smartin said: So since your reservoir is below the engine I don't think that's the case here. You would be comparing the water surface level in the trash can to the level of the pump axis. I think the water level is above the pump axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Buick Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) The water bucket should be at the level of the radiator. I think you have the bucket too low. And the outlets too high. Hang in there! Edited September 21, 2021 by Fr. Buick better clarity (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Water seeks its own level. As long as the height of the water in the bucket is above the highest level of the water passages in the engine it should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, Terry Harper said: Water seeks its own level. As long as the height of the water in the bucket is above the highest level of the water passages in the engine it should work. This is correct. The water level in the bucket was at the level of the red line in the photo above. The engine was mostly full. There was air in the cylinder heads where it wasn't filled and combined with the tall outlets, I think that is why no water was coming out at idle--it just didn't have enough flow volume or enough water. I am going to reinstall the radiator and fill it--hopefully coolant will move properly at that point. Now, there's still a LOT of heat being generated (obviously) so I need to solve that problem next because I'm not confident that the cooling system can keep up even if it's healthy. I don't rightly know where to start, though. Timing is only slightly advanced and the carburetor isn't running rich because the plugs are brown and there's no black smoke. It might be lean since it takes quite a bit of choke to keep it running, but I've fattened it up so much that I'm running out of adjustment on the screws--they're only hanging on by about two threads. If a few tweaks don't cure it, I guess I have to take the front cover off again and make sure the timing chain didn't jump a tooth. I don't think it did, but as long as I'm tearing everything apart for a second time, I may as well tear everything apart for a second time. I grow very weary of all this. It isn't the white-hot hate that I feel during and immediately after a failure, but rather a growing dismay that this engine can't be made right and that I'm just a fool. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: I grow very weary of all this. It isn't the white-hot hate that I feel during and immediately after a failure, but rather a growing dismay that this engine can't be made right and that I'm just a fool. Your not a fool at all! A fool is someone who allows adversity to stop them rather than accepting the challenge and using it to their advantage. No one could have predicted all that has transpired. It will be made right. and it will be you that does it! Remember that at this point those "failures" are vital to leading you to the solution. My warped sense of humor can't resit thinking of that old Bugs Bunny Yosemite Sam cartoon "From Hare to Heir" were Sam is supposed to inherit a fortune but he has to control his cussing. I have felt like Sam on many a day! Below is a clip. Comic interludes are good for the soul. Edited September 21, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Now, there's still a LOT of heat being generated (obviously) so I need to solve that problem next because I'm not confident that the cooling system can keep up even if it's healthy. I don't rightly know where to start, though. Timing is only slightly advanced and the carburetor isn't running rich because the plugs are brown and there's no black smoke. It might be lean since it takes quite a bit of choke to keep it running, but I've fattened it up so much that I'm running out of adjustment on the screws--they're only hanging on by about two threads. If a few tweaks don't cure it, I guess I have to take the front cover off again and make sure the timing chain didn't jump a tooth. I don't think it did, but as long as I'm tearing everything apart for a second time, I may as well tear everything apart for a second time. Matt, I have looked at the picture of the cam timing and I am not sure if it is in time. I was counting teeth trying to figure out were the marks would be at top dead center and to me it looks like it might be off one(or more) teeth. I am guessing that the two marks should be closest to each other and in line with the center line. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 21 minutes ago, dalef62 said: Matt, I have looked at the picture of the cam timing and I am not sure if it is in time. I was counting teeth trying to figure out were the marks would be at top dead center and to me it looks like it might be off one(or more) teeth. I am guessing that the two marks should be closest to each other and in line with the center line. Thanks for looking, Dale. The timing chain is definitely the next thing to check. I think I'll start taking it apart tonight after work instead of installing the radiator and running it again. It makes sense to check this first before adding more parts to the front of the engine that I'll have to remove again later. It's not that big a job and I bought a new gasket in anticipation of having to do it anyway. Like you, I've poured over that photo and tried to figure out whether it could be off a tooth, but counting teeth doesn't really tell you much. I need to get in there and line up the marks and see what it looks like. Don't you hate when you know what you need to do but you really don't want to do it? That's how I felt about going back into the bottom end over the weekend, and now this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Matt I don’t know if you’ve done this yet or not but I would re-torque your intake and exhaust manifolds and also your head gasket. You have heat cycle that engine quite a few times and if you haven’t done it I can guarantee you they are all very loose. I’ve torqued my intake and exhaust manifolds five times now, every time I do I think I’m not going to get much out of it and surprisingly they’re fairly loose the last time I checked the intake and exhaust they were pretty good. I might check them one more time to be sure but I have close to 21 inches of vacuum when it’s running at idle, if those are leaking that will lean out your mixture and cause it to run hot. I also found that the ones closest to the front of the engine were a lot looser than the ones to the rear not sure why. Lynn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahti35 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Now, there's still a LOT of heat being generated (obviously) so I need to solve that problem next because I'm not confident that the cooling system can keep up even if it's healthy. I don't rightly know where to start, though. Timing is only slightly advanced and the carburetor isn't running rich because the plugs are brown and there's no black smoke. It might be lean since it takes quite a bit of choke to keep it running, but I've fattened it up so much that I'm running out of adjustment on the screws--they're only hanging on by about two threads. This sounds an awful lot like a 60's Mercedes engine I fought with this summer. It wouldn't run good at all... throttle wandering, mixture screws backed out to the max. I had that carb apart 4 times verifying this that and everything along with chasing electrical ghosts and scratching my head. I really had poor control over the engine no matter what/how I adjusted. I built a smoke pot, hooked it into the intake manifold, and ran a pound of pressure that revealed intake leaks I never would have found without smoke. I addressed the issues and instantly it ran better and the carb screws operated way better, 1 1/2 turns, etc... Might be worth trying smoke with all openings closed off to check for any leaks that would result in a lean condition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Timing chain being off could cause that glowing manifold alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 Tore apart my engine stand and removed the front cover to find this: So the marks aren't even close to aligned. Is that good news? I sure hope so, as it would explain all kinds of issues. However, I'm not 100% certain they should be aimed at each other. I seem to recall that on another one of my cars, either the '29 Cadillac or the '41 Buick, that the timing marks weren't supposed to be aimed at each other, but at some other point, maybe both aimed at 12 o'clock high or something like that. In typical Lincoln fashion, there is no reference to it in the books or bulletins. So what do I do? Which is right? Do I even know for certain that it's wrong without having anything for reference? No idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: Tore apart my engine stand and removed the front cover to find this: So the marks aren't even close to aligned. Is that good news? I sure hope so, as it would explain all kinds of issues. However, I'm not 100% certain they should be aimed at each other. I seem to recall that on another one of my cars, either the '29 Cadillac or the '41 Buick, that the timing marks weren't supposed to be aimed at each other, but at some other point, maybe both aimed at 12 o'clock high or something like that. In typical Lincoln fashion, there is no reference to it in the books or bulletins. So what do I do? Which is right? Do I even know for certain that it's wrong without having anything for reference? No idea. I have never heard of timing marks NOT lining up, but I have not seen every engine, either. There has GOT to be a Lincoln guy who can give you that answer. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Matt, Sit back, have a cold drink and wait for the Lincoln experts to chime in! If in fact it is out of time, that would certainly account for several of the running issues. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary W Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Does your engine have to be #1 on TDC to align the timing marks? Can you rotate the engine around to TDC. Then check your timing marks. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I'm not an expert, but I think they should be lined up. If they were both suppose to be at 12:00 then it's way out of time and probably wouldn't run at all. It ran fine before you tore into it so I would say your just a few teeth off since you were messing with the timing chain and it may have moved. I'm sure an expert will chime in. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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